Introducing: Psychoanalyzing the Patient

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Straut Media. Hi, and welcome
to Psychoanalyzing the Patient podcast. Join me

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Stacy Nye and me Lindsay Jones as
we try to uncover each character's dynamics by

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talking to experts in the field of
psychology as well as members of the cast

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and crew. So don't be late. Our session begins now. All right,

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we're going to talk about the first
episode of The Patient. But before

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we talk about the first episode of
The Patient, we have to say we're

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literally about to tell you the entire
episode. So if you, for some

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reason have not watched the first episode
of The Patient yet, please stop this

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podcast right now and go watch it
on Hulu and then come back and hit

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play so that we will not have
spoiled any of it for you. You

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have been warned. It opens on
Alan, who is a therapist played by

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Steve Carrell. He wakes up in
a dimly lit bas and discovers that his

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ankle is chained to a bed.
He tries to get free, he can't

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figure out where he is. He's
yelling for help. No one responds,

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and while worth with him, we
start to flash back on his life.

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He's a therapist, he sees patients, he has a new patient that has

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recently come into his practice, Gene
played by Domhall Gleason, who's sort of

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like this generally looking guy who seems
like he has problems. He won't take

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off his sunglasses, he's kind of
uncooperative as a patient goes. He says

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that his dad beat him up a
lot as a kid, but we can't

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really seem to get to what's going
on with Jean, so eventually Alan sort

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of tries to inspire Jean to sort
of be more forthcoming, and that doesn't

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really seem to work out all that
well. Meanwhile, we learn more about

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Alan. We realize through his interaction
with his patients that his wife has recently

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died. We also see him briefly
interact with his son and doesn't seem like

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it's going very well, and for
the most part, Alan lives a very

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solitary life as a therapist by himself. Where we go back to the basement

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and we discover that in fact,
Jean has locked him up in this basement

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and that he has locked him up
there and tells him first of all that

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his real name is not Gene,
it is Sam. But in fact,

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in addition to that being a big
secret. The real secret is is that

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Sam is in fact a serial killer, and he believes that he needs to

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have help for his problems, and
so he took Alan's advice to really confront

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the problem head on by kidnapping Alan, bringing him to the basement, and

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forcing him to provide therapy for him
in the hopes that Alan can somehow make

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him feel better. We also find
out that he wanted specifically a Jewish therapist.

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He looked for the three jew therapists
and he could find and he thought

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Alan was the best one, and
that's why he's here, and that is

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how we end the first episode of
The Patient. So that was a remarkable

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moment for me when he says,
you know, I met with three different

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Jewish therapists and I chose you,
And then he smiles like he's real proud

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of himself, and Steve Carrell's face
is like, oh what, you know,

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because he's already locked up at this
point, you know, like,

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oh no, I don't feel too
good about that. You know, like

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it was essentially a compliment, but
you know, like not the kind of

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compliment anyone wants, right, No, no, no one ever wants to

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feel like you're the right person for
me to kidnap and put in a basement

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right right there. There was also
there were a couple of interesting things that

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happened that I just wanted to,
you know, chat about too. So

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there was this um dream that Alan
has right where he wakes up and um,

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well you don't know it's a dream
at first. He wakes up and

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his wife is lying next to him
and she's holding her guitar, and then

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you hear this baby crying in the
distance, and he goes to check on

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the baby, and that baby's got
this like monster face. That was like

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totally creepy. So what do you
think that means? Any thoughts about that?

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No idea? No, I mean
I really don't. Like I was

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just grappling with the part where I
feel he's so traumatized for being in this

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situation that he has no control over
that. Who knows what the dreams mean

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at this point. The other thing
that I thought was interesting was just like

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his kind of quiet life right Like
he's flossing his teeth. He seems like

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it does a good job flossing his
teeth and you know, making himself food

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and cutting up his fruit and putting
like foot cream on like like that's kind

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of I don't know. I was
just wondering about that, Like, what

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did you think about that, Lindsay. I mean, it definitely reinforces the

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part where he is alone and lonely, and definitely seems like in a way

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he has kind of retreated from himself
a little bit. He seems definitely like

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his entire demeanor feels very heavy,
as if he is really holding a lot

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of stuff in about himself, and
he doesn't seem to be at ease with

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anything. He's just looks like he's
kind of going through the motions a little

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bit. I have one other thing
to add because I was telling talking to

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my friend Stephie. Here's a shout
out to my friend Stephie. I watch

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all these shows with anyway. She
sent me a text yesterday that said something

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like I kind of hate it when
they make the serial killer kind of attractive.

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And I just like burst out laughing
when I read that, Like,

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Okay, like, I guess we're
not supposed to be attracted to the serial

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killer, but um, you know, and and I and I texted you

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yesterday and I said, wait,
this Dominal Gleason is you know, played

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one of the Weasley Twins in all
the Harry Potter films, and um,

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he's Brendan Gleason's son, so he's
really, you know, um, quite

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well known. Of course Steve Carrell
is um so well known. Um,

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so it's gonna be a great show. Yeah, you wouldn't know that he

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wasn't American from the show, right, He's got no trace of his Irish

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accent at all, none at all
nothing. So what do you think is

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going to happen next? I mean, we know we watched the second episode

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right away, but where do you
think it's gonna go. Do you think

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he's gonna cure him? I don't
know. I mean, I don't know,

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can you cure him? What does
it cure? Mean? What is

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that? What is that? I
don't even know there's I mean, on

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the one hand, you're like kind
of rooting for Steve Garrel just to get

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free, but then you're like,
what happens if he guests free? Like

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how do we get out of this? So yeah, I don't know.

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I have to say I'm really worried
for him. Yeah, I think that's

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a good question, because like how
can this possibly end? You know,

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like, he's not gonna I'm gonna
tell you right now, he's not going

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to cure him in ten sessions,
and so someone has to die. That's

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my prediction. Someone has to die, and it's either going to be Alan

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or Sam. All right, well, it sounds like we need an expert

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here, Stacy, who is our
guest this week? Doctor Frank Summers is

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a training and supervising analyst at the
Chicago Institute for Psychoanalysis. He has authored

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several books and has published widely in
psychoanalytic journals. He holds several honors and

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distinctions for numerous distinguished professional organizations around
the country, including the Professor of Clinical

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Psychiatry and the Behavioral Sciences at Feinberg
School of Medicine at Northwestern University, where

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he was my clinical supervisor. One
of the things I'm going to say that

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I do want to say, just
to kind of lead in here, is

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because I know that you know that
you were my supervisor in graduate school.

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And I don't know if you know
this, you probably do, but you

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know you were a little intimidating back
then, you know, a few years

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ago that was Do you know that
that you were a little intimidating back then?

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Frank I have heard that, said, yes, have you heard that?

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Okay, I never experienced myself that
way, never quite believed it.

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But you're not the first person to
tell me that. So yeah, okay,

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well, but I'm so glad that
you know, um, we're on

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the other side of that now and
I we can just be colleagues. So

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so I'm just gonna say, welcome, Frank, how are you. I'm

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just fine, thank you, and
thank you so much for having me in

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the show and inviting me. I'm
really looking forward to this. Thanks for

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being here. I'm totally not intimidated
by you. There's no reason to be.

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Okay, good, my children aren't. I don't know anyone else,

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shit be I have a similar relationship
with my children. So I thought of

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you, Frank when UM we came
up with this idea to UM do a

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podcast on this show, because I
thought, who what, what psychologist?

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What I most want to talk to
about? How how the psychologist is you

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know, UM played here and the
patient and the whole process. So so

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I'm really excited and I'm just gonna
say, like, what do you think

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of the show? So are you
watched the first episode? Yeah? I

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did. It was actually I watched
the first two as I was the second

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one also but sneak the head.
But I really liked it. I thought

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it was very creative. The idea
is very creative. I think there are

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some, as you'll see, I
think some flaws in it, but I

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think that a concept is creative.
I think it's very dramatic. I think

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it's fascinating the interaction between the two
characters. Whoever thought of the idea I

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think deserves a lot of credit for
coming up with a real thoughtful, creative

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way to kind of get two people
to interact Tom in ways that they would

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not ever have been able to do
in any other context. I don't think

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you know so um so I like
to show it to kind of show that

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potenty in and I probably will watch
all the episodes. Oh good, good,

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thank you. How it comes out, I have to say, watching

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it right away, the first thing
that really occurred to me was just like

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what a daily life of a therapist
is like that? Like that when they

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it's flashes back to his life at
the big you know, before before the

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scenario begins, and you're sort of
seeing this sort of like collage of patience,

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this montage of patients, that go
by. And this is probably because

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um, I'm not a therapist at
all, and I only understand therapy from

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being a patient, which is basically, I walk into the office and I

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talk all about myself and then I
leave and I think, wow, that

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must have been really interesting for the
person who had to sit there with me.

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But that actually it is like this
sort of montage of people who are

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coming in with their their things.
Does it feel like that when you're a

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therapist? Does it feel like you're
just like in a wash of people and

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there and their problems and it starts
to all blend together like that? Is

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that? Is that how it is? And well everything I would say yes

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up until when you say they blend
together, And to me, people don't

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blod together so much. But the
montage of people coming in, that's what's

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fascinating about it. That's what I
love about it. Everybody's different. One

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thing you learn right away as a
psychotherapist, and I think I conveyed this

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to Stacy would Choose my student alone
many years ago, is that you first

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you realize that everybody's different, and
everybody assumes the way they are is the

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way the world is. Everyone assumes, well, of course this is how

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it is, because that's how they
were brought up. That's all they know,

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right. But it's totally different from
the next person who walks in,

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who says, well, of course
this is how it is, and it's

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totally different, right, because whatever
your experience was, that's how you just

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think the world is. That's how
you think a family is. If you

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were beaten up, you think every
kid gets beaten up. If you were

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treated with kid gloves and in a
sensitivity, you assume that that's how all

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parents are. And so that's one
of the fascinating things about it. My

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impression, Frank from this the therapy
that Alan is doing. It looks to

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me like he's doing some psychodynamic psycho
therapy, so he's not doing analysis.

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But um, I loved the comment
he makes to who he thinks is Gene

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at the time about Gene not opening
up and how he feels a little frustrated,

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and so he wonders if Gene feels
that way too. He was using

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his counter transference to get, you
know, to make a like an interpretation

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and get Gene to kind of open
up. What did you think about that?

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That's interesting because I had a different
take on it. I didn't like

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it, really, I, oh, you didn't like it. I didn't

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like it because I felt he was
angling to get rid of the guy.

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That's how it sounded to me.
Like he was saying, Wow, you

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know, look, let's face it, this isn't working. You know,

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you're not opening up. This is
not working. I feel frustrated. You

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feel frustrated. You know. Now
the patient didn't let it get there,

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But I thought the next thing I
expected out of his mouth was saying,

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you know, maybe this just asn't
working. That's how it sounded to me.

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But what I didn't like about it
is that to me, it sounded

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too much like blaming the patient.
You know, it's like we're not getting

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anywhere and it's your fault because you're
not opening up, And that I don't

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think is helpful to people. What
I would have said, and I wouldn't

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have said all that at one time
like you did, because I don't believe

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you should talk that much at one
time because the patient is too much to

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respond to. But I could see
myself saying to this guy something like,

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you know, I noticed that every
time we start to get to something that

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feels that all emotional, you deflect
if you notice that yourself, you know,

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this is in the context of moving
the process forward, not that you're

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frustrating me or you make it difficulty, you know, because if you were

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not getting anywhere, it's like,
have you noticed that, because that's part

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of the process. I have never
had a patient who didn't defend against their

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feelings ever, Ever, salthiest the
sickett You know, everybody wants to get

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better, but nobody wants to change, right, Well, I do think

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that. Actually Jean didn't take it
well, and you know, says something

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like, well, maybe I'm not
cut out for this, and then basically

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kidnaps the therapist, so well,
maybe they'll work better here, So you

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you know, it's I think you're
right about the whole thing. So when

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he said, you know, maybe
I'm that could out for this, this

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is the kind of thing you would
expect commentation when most patients would say something

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like that. So you're telling me
I'm let a good candidate for psychotherapy.

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You're telling me I can't be helped. That's how post patients would react to

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it. And you can sort of
tell that he's agitated, even though you

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can't necessarily understand why he's agitated like
that that clearly hasn't been there. And

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I guess this is probably my number
one question as a non therapist, which

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is probably an incredibly stupid question.
But what is the difference? Can you

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assess the difference between a person who
has actual difficulties versus a person that's just

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really annoyed? You know what I
mean? Like, this is just like

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an annoying person versus like a person
who actually is is struggling with something like

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that, they have a personality that
is um aggressive or is is difficult versus

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Okay, I can see they're actually
they're actually dealing with something. How do

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you how do you assess that?
Well, tell me what you mean by

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annoying person? I mean, what's
just an annoying person? Like a person

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who is just let's say, naturally
defensive or naturally um uh, just not

218
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terribly outgoing. They're not very they
don't like to share their feelings. There

219
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that their personality is such that they
um, they are not it's not a

220
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natural conversation. You feel like you
have to drag information out of them U

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Versus a person who you can tell
is reticent because they are hesitant to share.

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In this case, they're hesitant to
share that in fact, they have

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a compulsion to kill people. But
I'm assuming that's not usually how it always

224
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goes that, But that people that
you feel like they're you're sort of looking

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for the secret of that person,
and you're trying to determine whether that person's

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holding out because they're afflicted in some
way or just they don't want to share

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it with you. Yeah, yeah, I see what you mean. Well,

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the person you're calling just annoying person
is basically you're what you're describing as

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a defensive structure. Okay, they're
characterologically defensive, is what you're saying.

230
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That There isn't there isn't such a
clear distinction between those two as you think

231
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there is. Okay, somebody who's
just like you say, they're characterologically overaggressive,

232
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or they're they ascend people or whatever. They're defensive, but their defenses

233
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are much more difficult to do with
because they're characterologically defending. Okay. The

234
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other kind of person also uses their
defenses, but they use them in a

235
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more circumscribed way. Okay, that's
what you're talking about to protect themselves against

236
00:18:03.440 --> 00:18:04.400
something then, and want of other
people to know about it, or they're

237
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afraid about it themselves. The other
person is too, but it's just characterological.

238
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It's what they do. What they're
defending against is basically a weakness in

239
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the sense of self. Okay,
so the difference between the two isn't that

240
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one is just annoying the differences.
They're both defensive, they're both pathological,

241
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but one is characterologically passed pathological and
takes a lot longer to do with and

242
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sometimes it is very difficult to do. The usually is very difficult to do.

243
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That's actually really helpful. Thank you
that that really illuminates that for me.

244
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Yeah, I had another question about
this show that I found really sort

245
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of unusual, which is that in
the practice of Alan Steverell's character, he

246
00:18:49.440 --> 00:18:59.039
appears to be seeing patients in his
home and that seems I mean, obviously

247
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in this show it illustrates why that
might be a bad idea, which is

248
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that patients can come back and find
you at home. But is that something

249
00:19:07.039 --> 00:19:10.759
that happens that often? And is
that actually a good idea? Like,

250
00:19:10.799 --> 00:19:14.160
it doesn't seem like it's a good
idea. That's a really really good question.

251
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It's nothing I would ever do,
but some people do do it.

252
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It does happen. It's realistic,
especially in New York. It is geographically,

253
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it's a geographical question. Chicago,
I don't know that. I know

254
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a few people who have an office, a regular office downtown and then they

255
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have a part of their home that's
sectioned off with a private entrance. Okay,

256
00:19:37.839 --> 00:19:41.440
and so yeah, it's their house, but the person never sees their

257
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house. They know where they live, but the consulting room is separated off

258
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it as a private entrance and exit, so they really aren't part of the

259
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living space. I don't like it. It's not something I would ever be

260
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comfortable with. Okay, I've never
done that. I've always kept it too

261
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completely be separate in New York,
and this is something I've never seen in

262
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Chicago. I have colleagues and good
college smart people who use their living room

263
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as their consoling room. I mean, people just come in and you know

264
00:20:15.359 --> 00:20:19.079
it's because New York. If you
know what New York rental prices are,

265
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like, they save themselves a lot
of money. I mean, it's ridiculous.

266
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People pay thousands of dollars for these
little closet spaces, you know,

267
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to see patients. So this is
what people do, but I could never

268
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feel comfortable that way because I feel
like it's too much of a boundary blurring

269
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between my private life and my professional
life. And I really believe in keeping

270
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those two things separate. I think
that the most professional way to help to

271
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deal with patients is to have a
separate space, separate place. They don't

272
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know where I live. They can
find out, maybe, but I'm not

273
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going to tell them, you know, and to keep them things separate so

274
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that it's very clear what we're about. We're about helping them. We're about

275
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a professional relationship or professional contract.
We're not about forming a personal relationship.

276
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Although ironically, if you really works
well, sometimes the relationship that develops with

277
00:21:18.920 --> 00:21:25.079
compatient and analysts is about as close
a relationship as you can have because it's

278
00:21:25.119 --> 00:21:27.759
so intimate the material that you discuss
and who you're telling it to. And

279
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very frequently patients tell me things or
any therapist, things that they never tell

280
00:21:33.559 --> 00:21:37.440
anybody else, often not even their
spouts, okay, and so in that

281
00:21:37.480 --> 00:21:40.839
way, it's very intimate. But
for that very reason, it's important that

282
00:21:40.880 --> 00:21:45.160
it be kept separate from my private
life. Okay, they can tell me

283
00:21:45.240 --> 00:21:48.880
that because they know it's progly on
a professional basis, okay, and they

284
00:21:48.920 --> 00:21:53.440
know I'm not going to anything they
tell me stays within our relationship. I

285
00:21:53.559 --> 00:21:56.400
know no one else is going to
find out. And people will ask.

286
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I'll often say, now, what
if I tell you this? If I

287
00:22:00.319 --> 00:22:03.359
tell you that you know? And
I've had some people who you know,

288
00:22:03.480 --> 00:22:07.839
are public figures, you know,
and they're particularly concerned about their privacy,

289
00:22:08.000 --> 00:22:12.839
you know, And it's important that
they trust me to know that no one

290
00:22:12.880 --> 00:22:17.119
will ever know that they see me. I mean, you know, an

291
00:22:17.119 --> 00:22:19.559
occasion I get the phone calls,
people will say, um, I just

292
00:22:19.599 --> 00:22:22.799
want to talk to you about my
friend. I think it's important important information.

293
00:22:23.400 --> 00:22:26.519
First thing I say is anything you
tell me, I will tell the

294
00:22:26.559 --> 00:22:30.839
patient. Don't tell me anything you
don't want me to tell them, okay,

295
00:22:30.920 --> 00:22:34.039
And that usually shortens the conversation a
great deal, you know. But

296
00:22:34.160 --> 00:22:40.279
it's important that my patient know that
anything I hear from anybody else, they

297
00:22:40.279 --> 00:22:44.440
will hear, and I will only
listen. I'm not going to tell them.

298
00:22:45.519 --> 00:22:48.799
Have either of you ever googled a
patient? Like? Do you ever

299
00:22:48.920 --> 00:22:51.279
do that? In reverse? Where
you're like, you get a new person

300
00:22:51.319 --> 00:22:55.279
and you think, oh, I
should learn more about them I've never done

301
00:22:55.279 --> 00:22:56.440
that, and I never would to
do that, And I'll tell you why.

302
00:22:56.839 --> 00:23:00.960
I don't even like to get information. Like sometimes I get a referral

303
00:23:00.039 --> 00:23:03.440
and someone says, well, let
me tell you about the patient. I

304
00:23:03.559 --> 00:23:06.279
said, just tell me who it
is, tell me what they're looking for.

305
00:23:06.400 --> 00:23:07.839
That's all I want to know,
because I want to hear it from

306
00:23:07.880 --> 00:23:11.119
the patient. I don't want to
get it on Google. I don't want

307
00:23:11.119 --> 00:23:14.960
to hear it from their relatives.
I don't want to hear from another therapist

308
00:23:15.440 --> 00:23:18.400
anything. I want everything as much
as possible that I know about the patient

309
00:23:18.440 --> 00:23:22.559
to come from the patient, and
I want to be able to respond to

310
00:23:22.599 --> 00:23:26.160
it as though it's coming from the
patient. They start getting things from external

311
00:23:26.160 --> 00:23:29.000
sources, what am I going to
do with it? If I bring it

312
00:23:29.000 --> 00:23:32.480
in, I'm bringing in something that
patient didn't bring into me, right,

313
00:23:32.799 --> 00:23:36.799
I'm introducing into their analysis or therapy, which something I don't ever right to

314
00:23:36.839 --> 00:23:38.440
do, right. And if I
don't bring it in, I'm sitting at

315
00:23:38.480 --> 00:23:41.000
it. I'm holding the secret from
the patient. I don't keep secrets from

316
00:23:41.039 --> 00:23:44.880
my patients, right, So I
don't want to hear stuff, you know,

317
00:23:45.079 --> 00:23:48.599
And I'm never with Google anybody you
know, I can imagine the circumstance

318
00:23:48.640 --> 00:23:52.559
who I might look at. I
was really concerned that somebody was a serial

319
00:23:52.680 --> 00:23:56.400
killer or something like that. Maybe
then you know where I think there's a

320
00:23:56.400 --> 00:24:00.640
crime that could be committed for something, but fortunately that hasn't happened. It's

321
00:24:00.680 --> 00:24:07.000
like I've done it. It's actually
like an ethical it's an ethical violation,

322
00:24:07.480 --> 00:24:15.119
you know to do that. So
oh okay, yeah, um, I

323
00:24:15.160 --> 00:24:18.160
also wanted to ask. Okay,
So at the end of the episode,

324
00:24:18.240 --> 00:24:23.799
we learn that, um, that
Geane whose real name is sam Um,

325
00:24:25.480 --> 00:24:30.759
that he has a compulsion to kill
people and he's he's interested in stopping and

326
00:24:30.920 --> 00:24:40.839
obviously that's a major revelation. And
um, when you're in a therapy session

327
00:24:41.240 --> 00:24:48.880
where something massive like that is sort
of dropped in the session, is that

328
00:24:49.000 --> 00:24:55.200
a place where you're like, Okay, I need to I need to completely

329
00:24:55.240 --> 00:24:59.119
rethink how I've been dealing with this
person up to this point, or is

330
00:24:59.160 --> 00:25:03.480
it like you is it usually is
there sometimes when you're in a session and

331
00:25:03.559 --> 00:25:07.519
suddenly, like a big piece of
information will just be revealed and suddenly it's

332
00:25:07.519 --> 00:25:11.759
like, Okay, I've got to
completely start over because what I thought was

333
00:25:11.799 --> 00:25:15.319
going on is not what's going on
at all? Here. You have a

334
00:25:15.359 --> 00:25:18.960
way of asking the best questions,
you know. I really loved the righteous

335
00:25:19.000 --> 00:25:25.559
one of the most interesting parts about
the therapy and analysis. Yes there are

336
00:25:25.640 --> 00:25:29.079
cases. I haven't had it too
often, but I've had on occasion.

337
00:25:29.519 --> 00:25:32.960
I've had times not as dramatic as
somebody telling me they're a serial killer,

338
00:25:33.359 --> 00:25:37.359
but revelations because they wanted to wait, you know, until they really trusted

339
00:25:37.400 --> 00:25:41.680
me, although I didn't know this
until they reveal something. Often it's that

340
00:25:41.759 --> 00:25:45.920
they're gay. Okay. Some people
will hide that, you know, for

341
00:25:45.960 --> 00:25:48.279
a long time. Not as frequently
now, but over the years I've definitely

342
00:25:48.319 --> 00:25:52.720
had that, you know, and
after a year they'll say, yeah,

343
00:25:52.880 --> 00:25:56.000
actually, the real reason I came
was because I was afraid I was gay.

344
00:25:56.240 --> 00:26:00.799
They never said before. Okay,
wow, and um, you know,

345
00:26:00.839 --> 00:26:03.160
now I start thinking everything differently.
I started thinking about, oh,

346
00:26:03.160 --> 00:26:07.039
that's the reason they came, so
the presumed reason was which not the reason?

347
00:26:07.119 --> 00:26:10.599
So I have to rethink that,
you know, that was just a

348
00:26:10.640 --> 00:26:15.680
camouflage, right, and why are
they so fearful of acknowledging that their case?

349
00:26:15.759 --> 00:26:21.400
So that happens. I had one
um a really interesting case which actually

350
00:26:21.400 --> 00:26:23.839
wrote up in a paper, a
professional paper that was published. Um,

351
00:26:25.119 --> 00:26:30.240
it's a woman who was its waspy
looking as you'll ever find, you know,

352
00:26:30.279 --> 00:26:33.920
blonde, very skin you know,
very nice, sweet young lady.

353
00:26:34.160 --> 00:26:41.079
And she said that her parents were
from Argentina, but she was born here

354
00:26:41.279 --> 00:26:45.680
Okay, and every summer they would
go to Argentina for summer vacation, and

355
00:26:48.759 --> 00:26:52.519
that was a certain part of her
life was involved in that. Now,

356
00:26:52.799 --> 00:26:56.799
I've been Argentina a couple of times, I happened to love when society.

357
00:26:56.000 --> 00:27:00.240
In fact, my wife and I
actually expect thought about retiring there when point.

358
00:27:00.559 --> 00:27:03.079
So it's not going to happen.
And so when she said Argentina,

359
00:27:03.279 --> 00:27:07.160
I heard Buena side, so I
just assumed that every summer she had been

360
00:27:07.200 --> 00:27:12.720
to Buenoscaids. So somehow we have
we had obsession in which I said something

361
00:27:12.720 --> 00:27:17.759
about Buenocieds and she said, oh, I've never been to Buenacidees. And

362
00:27:17.920 --> 00:27:23.240
it completely changed the whole case because
where they had one was this remote rural

363
00:27:23.279 --> 00:27:29.079
area, Okay. And the remote
rural area was where her parents were from

364
00:27:29.279 --> 00:27:32.920
and where she had spent her summers, and it was a completely different culture

365
00:27:33.440 --> 00:27:37.119
from the one I assumed that she
had been exposed to and Buenosiees and explained

366
00:27:37.160 --> 00:27:41.720
a lot of things to me about
her okay, and unexplained things that I

367
00:27:41.759 --> 00:27:45.559
was wrong about. Okay. So
I had to rethink a lot of things

368
00:27:45.640 --> 00:27:51.960
because the culture of Buenciedes is so
different from where she was. Was like

369
00:27:51.960 --> 00:27:56.000
two different countries, okay, And
so what you've been exposed to, the

370
00:27:56.079 --> 00:28:00.440
influences on her were totally different.
And I felt totally embarrassed, you know,

371
00:28:00.480 --> 00:28:03.680
that had made this assumption, okay, Um, and I had as

372
00:28:03.720 --> 00:28:07.839
I sat there and she's telling you
this, I'm rethinking the whole therapy and

373
00:28:07.960 --> 00:28:14.119
her whole background and what influences were
hunter and it quite frankly was embarrassing,

374
00:28:14.160 --> 00:28:18.160
but um very revealing. So yeah, sometimes that that happens, and that's

375
00:28:18.160 --> 00:28:22.079
exactly what you have to do.
You have to rethink the whole kids somebody

376
00:28:22.119 --> 00:28:25.400
told me they were a serial killer, I would rethink everything I heard from

377
00:28:25.400 --> 00:28:33.880
this person, everything, Yeah,
I bet. Yeah. Um. I

378
00:28:33.599 --> 00:28:38.599
work in theater, so uh when
I write music for theater and for film,

379
00:28:38.759 --> 00:28:42.839
and so when I go see a
movie or I watch a play,

380
00:28:44.359 --> 00:28:48.200
I sit around and I think about
I just I automatically without even trying.

381
00:28:48.240 --> 00:28:51.079
I judge, I judge the music
in the movie, or I judge the

382
00:28:51.119 --> 00:28:53.920
music in the play. Let chants
the thing I do? Do you do?

383
00:28:55.039 --> 00:28:57.440
Either of you do a thing?
I know. I know you're watching

384
00:28:57.480 --> 00:29:00.319
a show about a therapist, and
we can we can talk about that in

385
00:29:00.319 --> 00:29:03.920
a second, because I'm sure each
of you have opinions about like, ah,

386
00:29:03.960 --> 00:29:07.079
I would have done that differently,
you know what I mean, because

387
00:29:07.119 --> 00:29:11.680
you're watching another person do your job. But like, are you ever out

388
00:29:11.720 --> 00:29:15.119
in public and you see people and
you're like, oh, you know that

389
00:29:15.200 --> 00:29:18.000
person needs a therapist, or like
I bet their therapist isn't that good because

390
00:29:18.000 --> 00:29:22.640
of the way they're behaving, Like
are you are you ever judging people based

391
00:29:22.680 --> 00:29:27.720
around how they would react in your
therapy? In the interests of authenticity and

392
00:29:27.720 --> 00:29:32.160
self revelation, I do do some
of it. I have to admit,

393
00:29:32.240 --> 00:29:36.599
and I don't feel I feel guilty
that I do that because you don't know

394
00:29:36.640 --> 00:29:40.599
the whole story. You feel guilty
because you don't know the whole story.

395
00:29:40.640 --> 00:29:42.799
You don't know what really happened in
their therapy, And how who am I

396
00:29:42.839 --> 00:29:47.000
to judged how good your therapist is, your how or what they're about,

397
00:29:47.079 --> 00:29:49.240
you know, from just some little
incident on the street. Right, you

398
00:29:49.240 --> 00:29:52.079
don't really know, and I have
to remind myself of that. I really

399
00:29:52.119 --> 00:29:56.200
try not to do that. Okay, first of all, not to judge

400
00:29:56.200 --> 00:29:59.400
whether someone needs a therapist or not. Just for one thing. I'm seeing

401
00:29:59.400 --> 00:30:03.960
patients all day long, Okay,
ten or twelve patients a day. Enough

402
00:30:03.079 --> 00:30:07.279
is enough? Right when I go
out or I see a movie, I

403
00:30:07.279 --> 00:30:10.200
don't want to be assessing people,
you know, That's what I do for

404
00:30:10.200 --> 00:30:11.640
a living, you know. I
want to be able to go to people

405
00:30:11.680 --> 00:30:15.319
in a completely different way. So
I don't do it. I try not

406
00:30:15.359 --> 00:30:18.079
to do it for that reason,
and for the reason that I think it's

407
00:30:18.160 --> 00:30:22.559
very cheap to judge things. You
can't judge from some of my patients.

408
00:30:22.559 --> 00:30:26.079
What they might tell somebody else about
me and what they've done is not going

409
00:30:26.119 --> 00:30:29.039
to reflect what happens between me and
them, right, And I could see

410
00:30:29.079 --> 00:30:30.759
someone else thinking what the hell is
this guy doing, you know, just

411
00:30:30.759 --> 00:30:36.400
from what he's hurt, you know. So for that reason, I really

412
00:30:36.440 --> 00:30:40.079
try not to do that. But
it's impossible to stay away from that completely,

413
00:30:40.119 --> 00:30:42.160
at least for me. You know, there's always the sense of what

414
00:30:42.359 --> 00:30:45.799
is going on with this guy,
what's going on in his therapy? You

415
00:30:45.799 --> 00:30:49.319
know, but he may have been
much worse before he wasn't there. I

416
00:30:49.359 --> 00:30:55.279
mean, what's funny about that question
is I don't know if this probably happens

417
00:30:55.279 --> 00:30:57.680
to you, Frank. When people
meet me and find out what I do,

418
00:30:57.759 --> 00:31:00.960
they go, oh, you're probably
sack analyzing me right now. And

419
00:31:02.079 --> 00:31:07.000
I actually like hate that comment because
I'm like, in that moment, I'm

420
00:31:07.000 --> 00:31:11.000
not doing therapy. I'm like,
you know, at working out or at

421
00:31:11.039 --> 00:31:15.759
the you know, with out with
friends or something like that. So I'm

422
00:31:15.799 --> 00:31:22.599
trying not to psychoanalyze people when I'm
not working, so I don't psychoan with

423
00:31:22.680 --> 00:31:26.440
people. And I agree, I
get that all the time, almost universal

424
00:31:26.960 --> 00:31:30.440
when I tell people I'm an oh
no, now I gotta watch myself or

425
00:31:30.759 --> 00:31:33.960
oh my god, yeah, you
know, yeah, and how it works

426
00:31:34.000 --> 00:31:37.599
anyway, right, Like that that
makes it sound like you guys have X

427
00:31:37.680 --> 00:31:41.039
ray vision or something, but you
like that's what people think. They kind

428
00:31:41.039 --> 00:31:44.279
of think of it that way,
like, oh, yeah, I don't

429
00:31:44.279 --> 00:31:48.599
watch myself because you're gonna see inside
my mind somehow like a like a like

430
00:31:48.640 --> 00:31:52.279
an X ray like some sort of
vision. Right, It doesn't work that

431
00:31:52.319 --> 00:31:56.319
way, but people don't know that, you know, they get immediately intimidated.

432
00:31:56.920 --> 00:32:00.359
And you know when people say,
oh, you're probably psychoanalyzing me right

433
00:32:00.400 --> 00:32:05.240
now, I say I am probably
not, because I do that all day

434
00:32:05.279 --> 00:32:07.839
long. And the last thing in
the world I want to do is psychoanalize

435
00:32:07.839 --> 00:32:10.240
somebody at a party, you know
or anywhere. Yeah, you know,

436
00:32:10.559 --> 00:32:15.079
it's awesome. Yeah you don't want
to necessarily say I could not care less

437
00:32:15.119 --> 00:32:22.240
about you, but probably you really
couldn't, but I probably do. I

438
00:32:22.279 --> 00:32:27.400
did look at the ways in which
you know, this therapist and the show

439
00:32:27.480 --> 00:32:31.720
responded to things and thought about how
I might respond in those situations, Like

440
00:32:32.359 --> 00:32:37.920
there was one thing that that he
said, um, although that might have

441
00:32:37.920 --> 00:32:43.039
been in the second episode, but
m I mean, I did think about,

442
00:32:43.079 --> 00:32:45.599
like, well, what would I
do because like he's he's chained up,

443
00:32:45.720 --> 00:32:52.599
right, and and gen Sam comes
in and Steve Carrell tries all these

444
00:32:52.599 --> 00:32:55.440
different methods to get him to,
you know, let him go, Like

445
00:32:55.480 --> 00:33:00.160
he says, unlock this right now, you know, so he tried us

446
00:33:00.200 --> 00:33:01.799
to tell him, you know,
in a very like you know, assertive

447
00:33:01.799 --> 00:33:05.160
way, unlocked this right now.
And then he says, come on,

448
00:33:05.279 --> 00:33:07.480
this isn't going to work here.
We have to do it at my office.

449
00:33:07.759 --> 00:33:12.680
He tries all these different ways that
don't work right, And so I

450
00:33:12.799 --> 00:33:15.160
did think about, like like what
would I do? Would I would I

451
00:33:15.279 --> 00:33:19.839
panic? What I scream? What
I cry? Would I you know?

452
00:33:19.920 --> 00:33:22.839
What? What methods would I try? So? And not that I came

453
00:33:22.920 --> 00:33:28.240
up with anything better. I mean
I think I think this is you know,

454
00:33:28.319 --> 00:33:30.519
and I probably would say something like
there was that moment he goes,

455
00:33:31.279 --> 00:33:36.119
I loved this line. Oh you're
gonna give me the silent treatment? Now

456
00:33:36.160 --> 00:33:39.759
that sounds that sounds pretty immature for
a therapist. And Steve carrell answers,

457
00:33:39.799 --> 00:33:43.839
well, I'm no longer your therapist. I'm now your prisoner. Like I

458
00:33:44.400 --> 00:33:46.119
might have said something like that,
you know, I might have gotten a

459
00:33:46.160 --> 00:33:52.599
little passive aggressive also, So yeah, what do you think, Frank?

460
00:33:52.640 --> 00:33:57.400
Do you think you would have responded
similarly? Um? You know, it's

461
00:33:57.480 --> 00:34:00.400
how do we know how we really
respond if we really got changed up by

462
00:34:00.400 --> 00:34:04.200
a patient? You know, it's
such an horrifying kind of experience. But

463
00:34:06.240 --> 00:34:14.320
what I do think is that the
notion that what trust patient doesn't notice,

464
00:34:14.320 --> 00:34:19.480
but to chain somebody up and say
you have to cure me, okay,

465
00:34:19.920 --> 00:34:23.679
is an impossibility. Okay, it's
it's an oxymoron. It's a contradiction in

466
00:34:23.800 --> 00:34:29.920
terms you cannot. I always say. I always say to my patients,

467
00:34:29.960 --> 00:34:31.480
you know, or I say to
my students, you know, we have

468
00:34:31.559 --> 00:34:37.119
a our technical piece of equipment.
Is they door with a one way lock.

469
00:34:37.280 --> 00:34:40.400
Okay, nobody can get in,
but you can always get out,

470
00:34:40.559 --> 00:34:44.480
okay, because the patient has to
be free to come and go. So

471
00:34:44.599 --> 00:34:47.440
none of what's what I'm saying to
them is that everything I do here is

472
00:34:47.440 --> 00:34:52.519
based on the premise that you come
here at your own free will. Okay.

473
00:34:52.840 --> 00:34:54.360
You want to be here, okay, for some reasons. Up to

474
00:34:54.360 --> 00:34:59.119
me maybe to figure out what reason, But I'm basing everything on Matt okay,

475
00:34:59.239 --> 00:35:02.639
and everything I do trying to figure
that out now. I never thought

476
00:35:02.639 --> 00:35:06.960
of it from the other point of
view the therapist who can't get out,

477
00:35:07.159 --> 00:35:10.559
right, But the same applies.
I mean, the therapist has to be

478
00:35:10.639 --> 00:35:16.480
free to operate in whatever way he
feels as best for the patient. When

479
00:35:16.519 --> 00:35:21.760
you're chained up, no matter who
you are, you can't possibly be operated

480
00:35:21.800 --> 00:35:25.199
the way you would if you were
free. Okay. And furthermore, when

481
00:35:25.239 --> 00:35:29.519
it comes to the point of he's
saying, well, you know, I'm

482
00:35:29.519 --> 00:35:31.639
not going to be your therapist,
and he says, well, then where

483
00:35:31.639 --> 00:35:36.159
does that leave us? You know, and then he decides he better be

484
00:35:36.239 --> 00:35:40.880
the therapist, right, especially Gene. Yeah, he had no choice.

485
00:35:40.920 --> 00:35:45.679
Jean says, you know, I'm
going to do it again. So therefore

486
00:35:45.760 --> 00:35:50.039
he would he would have to turn
him in, right. So now he's

487
00:35:50.039 --> 00:35:53.719
stuck. What does he do?
Right, But it's an impossibility because he's

488
00:35:53.760 --> 00:35:59.800
now operating under the pressure that literally, right, you cure me or else

489
00:36:00.039 --> 00:36:05.199
it's life or death. Okay,
you can't operate as the therapist that way.

490
00:36:05.400 --> 00:36:07.440
You've got to be free, to
be able to think and feel whatever

491
00:36:07.480 --> 00:36:12.280
you do, and to have that
the ultimate pressure of life and death on

492
00:36:12.480 --> 00:36:16.199
you doesn't work. I don't even
believe in. You know, sometimes companies

493
00:36:16.239 --> 00:36:22.119
will hire a therapist to you know, work with their clients, and I

494
00:36:22.159 --> 00:36:23.840
think all they can do is do
an assessment for them out. You can't

495
00:36:23.840 --> 00:36:29.000
do real therapy that way because the
therapist is an agent of the company and

496
00:36:29.159 --> 00:36:30.440
not on the side of the patients. They're on the side of the company.

497
00:36:31.159 --> 00:36:36.599
Well, this is an even more
extreme version of that situation, right,

498
00:36:36.840 --> 00:36:40.000
And so I would. I know
at one point I would have said

499
00:36:40.000 --> 00:36:43.280
to him, this is impossible.
You can't work. I can't do your

500
00:36:43.280 --> 00:36:45.360
therapist. Well, I'm chained up. You know. Therapy is based on

501
00:36:45.840 --> 00:36:51.559
the premise that we are both here
of our own free will, and yeah,

502
00:36:51.719 --> 00:36:53.840
here we're not, you know.
But you know what's kind of interesting

503
00:36:53.840 --> 00:36:58.519
though, is okay, Like,
yes, absolutely, I want to make

504
00:36:58.559 --> 00:37:02.559
it clear that you should never kidnap
your therapist and chain them up in order

505
00:37:02.559 --> 00:37:07.079
to force therapy, right, like, I want to make we haven't made

506
00:37:07.119 --> 00:37:09.480
that disclaimer already. I want to
take a moment now to make sure that

507
00:37:09.519 --> 00:37:15.079
everyone understands that's what we're all a
favor of here. But at the same

508
00:37:15.119 --> 00:37:22.679
time, the way that Dom Hall
Gleason plays Sam, he does seem to

509
00:37:22.760 --> 00:37:25.840
have a logical point of view,
which is like, I've got a problem.

510
00:37:25.880 --> 00:37:30.159
It's really serious. And he even
says the line which is I've got

511
00:37:30.320 --> 00:37:36.519
bigger problems than most of your other
patients. And so he is he is

512
00:37:36.599 --> 00:37:42.800
taking action, decisive, definitive action
to really address his problems. Now,

513
00:37:42.840 --> 00:37:47.000
it's definitely not the way to do
it, but he unlike other places,

514
00:37:47.119 --> 00:37:55.000
other television shows and films where serial
killers are sort of seeing as these monsters

515
00:37:55.039 --> 00:38:04.239
who are somehow soulless or are somehow
like you know, on autopilot. He

516
00:38:04.440 --> 00:38:08.119
seems to have a solid case as
to why he would do the things he

517
00:38:08.199 --> 00:38:13.440
did, and um doesn't want to
say, I don't want to say they

518
00:38:13.480 --> 00:38:17.360
sound reasonable, but they're close.
Well, he has a solid basis for

519
00:38:17.519 --> 00:38:22.239
saying, we've got to do something
different here. Okay, that's fine.

520
00:38:22.559 --> 00:38:24.599
He doesn't have a solid basis for
saying I have to chain you up because

521
00:38:24.599 --> 00:38:30.559
it's actually in the real world,
that's totally counterproductive. That's not going to

522
00:38:30.599 --> 00:38:32.920
get him his goal of getting cured. It's quite the opposite. But he

523
00:38:32.960 --> 00:38:37.559
could say, you know, I've
got worse problems than your patients. What

524
00:38:37.599 --> 00:38:39.199
you're doing here isn't working. You
know, we got to do something different.

525
00:38:39.320 --> 00:38:42.760
He could say that, right,
which would be fine because that was

526
00:38:42.840 --> 00:38:45.039
really good things going. And that's
where I go back to the comment that

527
00:38:45.079 --> 00:38:49.599
the therapists made, which I think
was that, in my view, a

528
00:38:49.599 --> 00:38:52.800
blunder to say you know, um, well, you know you you're avoiding

529
00:38:52.800 --> 00:38:55.800
everything. That's why we're not getting
anywhere, you know. I think if

530
00:38:55.800 --> 00:39:00.000
the therapist had handled that differently in
the real world, the patient wouldn't have

531
00:39:00.039 --> 00:39:02.960
locked him up. The patient would
have felt like, maybe you need to

532
00:39:02.960 --> 00:39:07.519
get somewhere. Okay, Wow,
this guy is addressing me, okay,

533
00:39:07.880 --> 00:39:10.719
not dismissing me. Okay. He
wants to understand me. He doesn't want

534
00:39:10.760 --> 00:39:14.960
to dismiss me because I can't do
it. But I can't doing it is

535
00:39:15.000 --> 00:39:17.400
all part of the process, okay, and we deal We'll deal with that.

536
00:39:20.079 --> 00:39:22.760
So if Alan hadn't confronted him,
he might not have been locked up.

537
00:39:23.079 --> 00:39:25.199
I don't think so. I don't
think you would have. I think

538
00:39:25.320 --> 00:39:30.119
I think the guy would respond it
differently if the analyst had said, you

539
00:39:30.159 --> 00:39:32.840
know, I can see that you're
hiding something here, and I think that's

540
00:39:32.880 --> 00:39:37.719
really important that you're avoiding stealings,
and so there's got to be something here

541
00:39:37.760 --> 00:39:39.679
that you're really troubling, you know. I wonder if you could give me

542
00:39:39.679 --> 00:39:43.960
an indication of what that might be, or have you thought about that yourself?

543
00:39:44.519 --> 00:39:46.000
You know, have you thought about
it yourself? Might be better,

544
00:39:46.079 --> 00:39:50.679
you know, and engage the process
of reflection of what that's going on.

545
00:39:50.880 --> 00:39:53.039
And of course the patient knows exactly
what because he's a serial killing, you

546
00:39:53.079 --> 00:39:57.559
know, And I think that that
would have gone out in that way.

547
00:39:59.679 --> 00:40:02.199
I'm not going to disagree with you, Frank, but I am going to

548
00:40:02.280 --> 00:40:08.599
say that I think it was inevitable
that at some point he would have done

549
00:40:08.599 --> 00:40:13.320
this. I mean not only because
it's a television show, but because I

550
00:40:13.360 --> 00:40:20.719
think this guy is a narcissist and
it's all about him. And so Steve

551
00:40:20.800 --> 00:40:25.639
Carrell or his therapist could have said
anything that he would have turned around and

552
00:40:25.719 --> 00:40:30.639
made it about him, because his
solution in the end is, you know,

553
00:40:30.719 --> 00:40:31.599
for him to say, well,
I wasn't able to open up in

554
00:40:31.639 --> 00:40:36.960
your office, Like that's bologny,
you know, like you don't need to

555
00:40:36.960 --> 00:40:38.960
be like you don't have your therapist
locked in the basement to have him,

556
00:40:39.400 --> 00:40:43.920
you know, open up to you. So I kind of think so I

557
00:40:43.960 --> 00:40:46.360
agree that, you know, like
Steve Carrell probably could have been a little

558
00:40:46.400 --> 00:40:52.559
more delicate, but I kind of
think that it was inevitable that it might

559
00:40:52.599 --> 00:40:58.840
have happened this way anyway, because
that's the way that's the patient's pathology.

560
00:40:59.000 --> 00:41:05.079
Yeah, yeah, isn't it Isn't
it possible that the reason why he's locked

561
00:41:06.360 --> 00:41:12.360
the therapist up is in order to
have control? Yes? And that also

562
00:41:12.559 --> 00:41:17.840
like serial killers, I feel like
also maybe kill people for that sense of

563
00:41:17.880 --> 00:41:24.559
control as well. Right, So
it's it's kind of logically follows. Well,

564
00:41:24.599 --> 00:41:30.400
you certainly that that would be it
to achieve control. But you see,

565
00:41:30.679 --> 00:41:34.880
there are better and worse ways of
handling the patients avoidance, right,

566
00:41:35.199 --> 00:41:37.599
And I think if it had been
handled differently, who can say? I

567
00:41:37.599 --> 00:41:40.079
mean, it's fiction, you know, the writer can write anything they want,

568
00:41:40.199 --> 00:41:44.519
right, but a patient like that
had seen in the real world.

569
00:41:44.800 --> 00:41:49.639
I think if you engage them in
showing your interested in understanding you know what

570
00:41:49.840 --> 00:41:53.159
is so troubling to them that they're
avoiding it that very frequently people will open

571
00:41:53.239 --> 00:41:59.159
up to you and they'll need to
Patients like that always need to be in

572
00:41:59.199 --> 00:42:00.719
control. As had a lot of
patients who need to be in control.

573
00:42:01.280 --> 00:42:05.440
Luckily so find none of them locked
me up. But you know, you

574
00:42:05.519 --> 00:42:09.639
talk about that, you talk about
them need to be in control, they'll

575
00:42:09.679 --> 00:42:14.079
control the therapy. They'll say,
this is what we're going to talk about,

576
00:42:14.119 --> 00:42:16.079
and this is how we're going to
do it, you know, and

577
00:42:16.320 --> 00:42:20.679
talk about that. You know,
it seems like it's important that you call

578
00:42:20.719 --> 00:42:22.679
the shots here, you know,
and we talked about it, you know,

579
00:42:23.239 --> 00:42:28.559
um and this guy as much as
he as he has killed people,

580
00:42:28.840 --> 00:42:32.039
he's also said he wants to do
it again. There's this guy he's obsessed

581
00:42:32.079 --> 00:42:36.719
with, but he goes to therapy
instead, and that's an open that means

582
00:42:36.719 --> 00:42:43.880
he's not totally acting out everything they
feel. I love that you just said

583
00:42:43.960 --> 00:42:49.079
so far no one has locked me
up as if there's still is still a

584
00:42:49.119 --> 00:43:00.920
shot at that. UM. I
have a question, Um, so what

585
00:43:01.079 --> 00:43:07.719
did you think about this idea that? Um he that the patient wanted to

586
00:43:07.719 --> 00:43:15.199
pick a Jewish therapist, that thinking
that Jewish accountant. It's like, I

587
00:43:15.280 --> 00:43:19.679
know this is whole Jewish thing.
Yeah, I guess you think that's just

588
00:43:19.840 --> 00:43:22.840
simply it. I don't know.
I thought it was fascinating, but it

589
00:43:23.000 --> 00:43:25.960
never We didn't get any more material
than that. He just said, I

590
00:43:27.000 --> 00:43:30.760
picked out three Jewish therapists, and
I picked out the best one. I

591
00:43:30.920 --> 00:43:35.599
was Jewish. It would me I
would have think, why only Jewish doctors

592
00:43:36.079 --> 00:43:40.119
Jewish? Yeah? Um, that
was a fascinating, uh little vignette.

593
00:43:40.400 --> 00:43:44.199
And I didn't know what to make
of it other than he wants the best

594
00:43:44.239 --> 00:43:46.760
anythings, Jews are the best.
That made me wonder is the patient jewish?

595
00:43:46.880 --> 00:43:53.719
You know? He didn't look.
Yeah, yeah, Um, you

596
00:43:53.760 --> 00:43:59.440
know many people feel like I feel
like Jewish doctors are the best. I

597
00:43:59.480 --> 00:44:01.719
always or the growing up the desk
because I'm Jewish and every one of my

598
00:44:01.760 --> 00:44:07.480
relatives were Jewish, and now said
the Jewish doctors. Um, And you

599
00:44:07.519 --> 00:44:13.039
know he wanted the best and his
concept the Jews, Jews were the best,

600
00:44:13.119 --> 00:44:16.480
are the best. WHI is a
fascinating thing for someone to say.

601
00:44:16.639 --> 00:44:20.119
I've never had a patience say to
me, I was just looking for a

602
00:44:20.199 --> 00:44:24.320
Jewish therapist. Yeah, yeah,
of course, most I've had people.

603
00:44:25.400 --> 00:44:29.360
Yeah, no, I've had people
say ask me about my you know,

604
00:44:29.880 --> 00:44:34.159
in more recent years, my political
views and and have that be part of

605
00:44:34.840 --> 00:44:38.360
you know, why they would choose
me or not. But yeah, So,

606
00:44:39.360 --> 00:44:44.079
Frank, was there anything in particular
else about the episode that you wanted

607
00:44:44.119 --> 00:44:49.360
to be sure to um talk about? Um. That's a good question.

608
00:44:49.800 --> 00:44:58.000
Um, the I guess the main
thing was the um the dramatic situation.

609
00:44:58.159 --> 00:45:04.159
He quits the therapist skin by saying, UM, you know you've got to

610
00:45:04.239 --> 00:45:09.719
cure me before I let you go, and the therapist saying and saying,

611
00:45:09.719 --> 00:45:13.079
well, you know, you got
to let me go before I can hear

612
00:45:13.119 --> 00:45:16.360
you, which is true okay,
And then the patient says, well,

613
00:45:16.440 --> 00:45:21.199
but then you turn me in.
You have to turn me in, and

614
00:45:21.239 --> 00:45:24.079
that therapist says, only if you
say you're going to do it again.

615
00:45:24.159 --> 00:45:27.599
So immediately he says, I'm going
to do it again, you know.

616
00:45:28.199 --> 00:45:30.800
So that traps the situation, that
traps the therapist. So I thought it

617
00:45:30.840 --> 00:45:35.639
was a blunder on the therapist part, but obviously a difficult one to see

618
00:45:35.639 --> 00:45:38.719
at the moment. Right, But
if you could think of that, you

619
00:45:38.760 --> 00:45:43.159
know what, the therapist should have
said, everything's better to see in hindsight.

620
00:45:43.559 --> 00:45:46.840
You should have said, um,
listen, I don't have to turn

621
00:45:46.880 --> 00:45:51.400
you in, you know, Um, you know, there's nothing you know,

622
00:45:51.639 --> 00:45:54.920
and and and just leave it at
that. Um. Yeah, But

623
00:45:55.440 --> 00:46:00.280
the gains of the patient and opening
and therefore got trapped and to a situation

624
00:46:00.320 --> 00:46:07.880
that's basically impossible, you know.
It's he's got to try to cure somebody

625
00:46:07.920 --> 00:46:12.000
in a situation where it's impossible to
cure them. And serial killers are notoriously

626
00:46:12.119 --> 00:46:15.719
hired to cure anyway, right,
but especially that by the way, I

627
00:46:16.159 --> 00:46:19.679
like, can you curious the earlier
killer? And like, how long does

628
00:46:19.679 --> 00:46:22.360
that take? I feel like longer
than ten episodes? Yeah, yeah,

629
00:46:22.480 --> 00:46:27.199
right. I've I've never heard of
a case in which a serial killer was

630
00:46:27.639 --> 00:46:31.800
actually cured by therapy or anything else
for that matter. You know, maybe

631
00:46:31.800 --> 00:46:36.960
there are cases, but I've never
heard of one, because you know,

632
00:46:37.199 --> 00:46:42.039
what they're doing is they're they're enacting, you know, whatever it is that's

633
00:46:42.079 --> 00:46:45.599
bothering them. It gets enacted by
killing somebody, right and so um.

634
00:46:47.119 --> 00:46:52.239
And to take them into therapy,
you'd have to get them into a situation

635
00:46:52.239 --> 00:46:54.960
where they'd be willing to deal with
whatever it's bothering them that leads them to

636
00:46:55.079 --> 00:47:00.440
do the shooting without doing the shooting. And maybe that's theoretically possible, but

637
00:47:01.000 --> 00:47:07.480
in practical terms, i'd seen a
lot of you know, I haven't seen

638
00:47:07.480 --> 00:47:10.199
myself stre of killers, but I've
read about them, and I've seen portrayals

639
00:47:10.199 --> 00:47:15.519
and documentaries and so on, and
none of them seem to me to be

640
00:47:16.039 --> 00:47:22.480
at all amenable, you know,
anything like that, because they're so narcissistically

641
00:47:22.559 --> 00:47:24.480
vulnerable that they have to kill,
you know, that's the only way they

642
00:47:24.480 --> 00:47:29.400
can resolve it. I remember hearing
seeing this one case in a documentary for

643
00:47:29.559 --> 00:47:32.679
this guy was asked why he killed
his bus drik and he said, well,

644
00:47:32.719 --> 00:47:37.119
I got on the bus and the
guy said you needed token, he

645
00:47:37.159 --> 00:47:39.599
needed something and I said, no, I don't have him or something,

646
00:47:39.880 --> 00:47:42.679
and he said, well, you
have to get off the bus. He

647
00:47:42.800 --> 00:47:45.840
said he didn't know. That's when
he got executed. He didn't know who

648
00:47:45.840 --> 00:47:46.960
he was dealing with, and he
shot him. He killed him. You

649
00:47:47.000 --> 00:47:53.519
know, now, somebody like that
is not curable, okay, because anything

650
00:47:53.559 --> 00:47:58.079
that said, oh, indicative that
there's anything that he has to do or

651
00:47:58.119 --> 00:48:01.000
someone else tells them what to do. He's to kill me, right right,

652
00:48:01.119 --> 00:48:07.519
That's just not a curable situation,
you know, and serial killers of

653
00:48:07.599 --> 00:48:13.400
that. You know. So if
you were Alan, if you personally were

654
00:48:13.440 --> 00:48:15.840
Alan and you were in the basement
chained up to a bed and Sam said

655
00:48:15.880 --> 00:48:20.840
to you, I'm not letting you
leave this basement until you cure me of

656
00:48:20.960 --> 00:48:24.480
being a serial killer, your first
thought is probably I'm never leaving this basement,

657
00:48:24.960 --> 00:48:28.559
that's right. And I would probably
say that to him. I would

658
00:48:28.559 --> 00:48:32.000
say, that's an impossibility. I
can't kill you what I'm locked up.

659
00:48:32.400 --> 00:48:43.159
It can't happen, So you'll kill
you. But you know, well,

660
00:48:43.199 --> 00:48:49.800
and your comment earlier, Frank,
Yeah, your comment earlier about everyone wants

661
00:48:49.800 --> 00:48:52.519
to be better, but no one
wants to change. Is really relevant here

662
00:48:52.639 --> 00:48:57.039
because every time Steve Carrell is going
to say to him, you have to

663
00:48:57.119 --> 00:49:00.719
do maybe try it this way.
You know, he's gonna you know,

664
00:49:00.760 --> 00:49:05.719
he wouldn't take his sunglasses off in
the beginning. He's certainly not unlocking him.

665
00:49:05.840 --> 00:49:07.760
He says, promise me, you're
not going to do it. And

666
00:49:07.840 --> 00:49:10.119
the best thing he can say as
well, I'll try. You know.

667
00:49:10.440 --> 00:49:15.360
Um, he's going to have a
hard time taking any of the suggestions.

668
00:49:15.400 --> 00:49:20.280
In fact, I found myself wondering
if he just hadn't already killed someone.

669
00:49:20.440 --> 00:49:24.639
I don't know, but he's killed
several people apparently. Oh, I mean

670
00:49:24.719 --> 00:49:31.320
even since starting to see him that
promise. Yeah, it would take an

671
00:49:31.360 --> 00:49:38.440
absolutely heroic effort, okay, a
piece of therapeutic history for somebody to gain

672
00:49:38.639 --> 00:49:43.079
enough trust in somebody like that,
and they have they have enough trust in

673
00:49:43.159 --> 00:49:47.280
you that you could actually help them
think about what they're doing rather than kill

674
00:49:47.360 --> 00:49:52.320
somebody and understand what's wrong about it
and not do it again. That would

675
00:49:52.320 --> 00:49:54.960
be heroic. I would never say
it's impossible, but it would be a

676
00:49:54.960 --> 00:50:00.000
heroic effort. Would make history.
Wow, all right, well, I

677
00:50:00.039 --> 00:50:02.559
think that sets us up really well. For the rest of the series then,

678
00:50:02.679 --> 00:50:08.480
because yeah, we still have nine
episodes ago at least, right right,

679
00:50:08.639 --> 00:50:13.800
right right, could be interesting.
Yeah, well, Frank, thank

680
00:50:13.840 --> 00:50:16.039
you so much for coming on.
That was really that was really a fun

681
00:50:16.079 --> 00:50:22.480
discussion and about a very dark topic. Um and it was fun to kind

682
00:50:22.519 --> 00:50:28.039
of, you know, because you
were my teacher, to just trade ideas

683
00:50:28.119 --> 00:50:32.239
about the way the way it could
be done or should be done or might

684
00:50:32.280 --> 00:50:37.400
have been done. Um. So, yeah, that was really great.

685
00:50:38.679 --> 00:50:43.079
It was This was a lot of
fun. Thank you both so much.

686
00:50:43.360 --> 00:50:46.039
I appreciate the invitation. I thank
you for it. And it's wonderful to

687
00:50:46.119 --> 00:50:51.440
see my former student doing so well. It's so gratifying to me to see

688
00:50:51.480 --> 00:50:55.320
her being so successful, you know, aren't you sweet? Thank you Lee.

689
00:50:55.440 --> 00:51:01.599
Yeah, that's what they're talking about. Celia Killers could be so gratified.

690
00:51:01.760 --> 00:51:09.119
This is great. This is bringing
us all together. Yea. Yeah,

691
00:51:09.119 --> 00:51:13.079
well, thank you both very much. So thank judging so much.

692
00:51:13.119 --> 00:51:21.760
Thank you. So that was doctor
Frank Summers, training and supervising analyst at

693
00:51:21.800 --> 00:51:27.840
the Chicago Institute for Psychoanalysis. Um
Man, I learned a lot from him

694
00:51:27.880 --> 00:51:31.719
about this. This was really exciting
and interesting. Um and yeah, I

695
00:51:31.760 --> 00:51:37.679
don't I'm also feel like I feel
like I was here to witness some sort

696
00:51:37.719 --> 00:51:42.920
of personal like circle for you personally
that you're sort of like able to,

697
00:51:43.039 --> 00:51:46.840
like the student becomes the master kind
of. I don't know if that's exactly

698
00:51:46.840 --> 00:51:51.079
the right metaphor here, but you
see where I'm going with this. Well,

699
00:51:51.119 --> 00:51:52.519
I mean it could have been that, but he, you know,

700
00:51:52.599 --> 00:51:59.079
told me I was wrong in the
first ten minutes. But that's okay,

701
00:51:59.320 --> 00:52:01.159
never mind, yeah, no,
no, but no, it was great.

702
00:52:01.559 --> 00:52:07.440
It was it was um. It
was very cool hearing his his perspective

703
00:52:07.480 --> 00:52:12.000
on that. So we were talking
about um one of the remarks that Alan

704
00:52:12.119 --> 00:52:17.440
makes to Um Sam about Um him
opening up, and I said, well,

705
00:52:17.440 --> 00:52:22.960
I thought that was really interesting.
You know that he made that comment.

706
00:52:22.159 --> 00:52:27.119
We used his counter transference to say, I'm I'm feeling a little frustrating.

707
00:52:27.159 --> 00:52:30.199
Maybe you're a little frustrating Frank.
Frank was like, I didn't like

708
00:52:30.280 --> 00:52:34.320
that comment at all. I think
that's the whole reason why he got kidnapped,

709
00:52:34.440 --> 00:52:38.239
basically because he's too fragile and he
went in too quick and blamed the

710
00:52:38.280 --> 00:52:43.119
patient. And I was like,
oh, okay, But other than that,

711
00:52:43.239 --> 00:52:45.159
was that's the true mark of a
teacher, though, right is the

712
00:52:45.239 --> 00:52:49.000
person who's able to stand back and
be like, ah, there you go.

713
00:52:49.400 --> 00:52:53.280
That was no, don't do it. Don't do it that way,

714
00:52:53.360 --> 00:52:58.599
s Daisy, we gotta go back. Yeah, yeah, I mean I

715
00:52:58.639 --> 00:53:00.519
think there you go. That's a
less and for all of you therapists out

716
00:53:00.559 --> 00:53:06.199
there is just be aware that if
you confront your patient, it's possible you'll

717
00:53:06.239 --> 00:53:10.280
be locked up in basement. I'm
grateful to the both of you indulging my

718
00:53:12.360 --> 00:53:20.119
neophyte questions about therapy since I don't
understand any of it, and so like,

719
00:53:20.480 --> 00:53:24.639
I will try to ask less embarrassing
questions as this show goes along if

720
00:53:24.679 --> 00:53:30.920
I can possibly figure it out.
Frank loved your questions, lindsay yeah and

721
00:53:30.199 --> 00:53:32.440
worry about it. No, no, don't worry about it at all.

722
00:53:32.599 --> 00:53:38.239
And it really kind of gave him
the opportunity to talk about, you know,

723
00:53:38.280 --> 00:53:42.440
the things that he knows best,
you know, like how do you

724
00:53:42.440 --> 00:53:45.880
decide how many sessions a week someone
needs? How do you decide any analysis

725
00:53:45.880 --> 00:53:52.320
who doesn't need analysis? But also, um, you know, basically when

726
00:53:52.960 --> 00:53:57.679
when you when you dive in and
confront the patient when you don't. But

727
00:53:57.920 --> 00:54:01.840
I really appreciated like his comment,
it's about you know, people finding us

728
00:54:01.880 --> 00:54:07.280
thing, people finding out things about
the therapist. You know that vignette in

729
00:54:07.320 --> 00:54:10.960
the beginning of the episode where the
patient goes, I'm really sorry about your

730
00:54:12.000 --> 00:54:16.119
loss um and and the and the
basic premise of the whole show, which

731
00:54:16.199 --> 00:54:22.159
is that you really can't. It's
it's nearly impossible to do therapy without that

732
00:54:22.320 --> 00:54:28.559
trust. And not only does the
patient have to trust you, but you

733
00:54:28.599 --> 00:54:31.599
know, you need to be able
to trust the trust the patient. You

734
00:54:31.639 --> 00:54:37.639
know that the patients that people like
often don't tell you everything, but you

735
00:54:37.719 --> 00:54:43.760
hope that they're you know, being
forthright enough that you've got something to work

736
00:54:43.800 --> 00:54:47.400
with. And if you're being impinged
in any way, it's it's hard to

737
00:54:49.199 --> 00:54:52.119
it's hard to be our most present, you know, helpful selves if we're

738
00:54:52.239 --> 00:54:57.519
if we're afraid or angry or you
know, locked up in a basement.

739
00:54:57.719 --> 00:55:00.800
So yeah, I mean, I
think that's a really interesting point, is

740
00:55:00.800 --> 00:55:05.840
that, And it goes back again
to my sort of my experience of therapy,

741
00:55:05.880 --> 00:55:08.280
which is that I come in and
everything is about me, But really

742
00:55:08.880 --> 00:55:15.480
it's it's equally as important that the
therapists feel comfortable and safe in order for

743
00:55:15.519 --> 00:55:22.079
them to be able to make make
real progress. Otherwise if they don't,

744
00:55:22.719 --> 00:55:28.559
then that affects everything, right,
because it's it's a relationship. Therapy is

745
00:55:28.559 --> 00:55:34.000
a relationship, and so it might
feel or appear like it's a one sided

746
00:55:34.039 --> 00:55:37.599
relationship. And patients say that all
the time to me, like, well,

747
00:55:37.639 --> 00:55:39.239
I've told you everything about me.
I don't know anything about you.

748
00:55:39.679 --> 00:55:44.440
But people know things about me.
And I don't mean like, well they

749
00:55:44.480 --> 00:55:49.400
know that you know I like to
wear blue. They get to know like

750
00:55:49.440 --> 00:55:52.960
how I'm going to respond to them, They get to know my personality.

751
00:55:53.039 --> 00:55:59.320
They know they know me and they
can't they know they can learn to trust

752
00:56:00.119 --> 00:56:04.360
how that I'm going to be open
to them and what they have to say.

753
00:56:04.639 --> 00:56:08.079
So um, and that's a relationship. And as Frank said, it's

754
00:56:08.079 --> 00:56:13.880
one of the most intimate relationships you
can have with a person. So yeah,

755
00:56:13.880 --> 00:56:17.559
that's really true. Yeah, And
I mean, like when you are

756
00:56:17.880 --> 00:56:22.760
you ever surprised by how intimate things
can get? Are there? Even after

757
00:56:22.800 --> 00:56:24.119
all this time of being a therapist, are there times where you're like,

758
00:56:24.239 --> 00:56:31.239
WHOA, I wasn't expecting this level
of intimacy? No, oh okay,

759
00:56:31.320 --> 00:56:36.760
no, you're going yeah, no, I I I have not been surprised.

760
00:56:36.880 --> 00:56:42.760
People tell me all kinds of things, and I'm I'm extremely appreciative,

761
00:56:43.719 --> 00:56:49.599
and I never you know, you
know, I don't take it for granted.

762
00:56:49.960 --> 00:56:52.960
It's really amazing because I think we
don't really think about it or talk

763
00:56:53.000 --> 00:56:57.960
about it. But it's a huge, it's an it's it's a real sacrifice

764
00:56:58.079 --> 00:57:00.920
for you, I think, to
be able to put yourself in that relationship

765
00:57:00.960 --> 00:57:07.039
and really focus so deeply on the
other person, and that's something that maybe

766
00:57:07.039 --> 00:57:10.039
we don't necessarily have in our lives. And so, like, I guess

767
00:57:10.079 --> 00:57:13.719
once you do that, once you
make the commitment to do that, then

768
00:57:14.480 --> 00:57:17.440
you're kind of ready for anything.
Yeah. Well, and so I'll just

769
00:57:17.480 --> 00:57:21.639
like and I wonder if this will
happen at all, but you know,

770
00:57:21.719 --> 00:57:24.639
just to turn the tables for a
minute, like therapists and therapy. Frank

771
00:57:24.679 --> 00:57:30.079
made a comment about that. I
once went to a support group for a

772
00:57:30.119 --> 00:57:36.320
medical condition that I have, and
um, I hated every second of it.

773
00:57:36.960 --> 00:57:42.079
And I had I had you know, we all know, you know

774
00:57:42.119 --> 00:57:45.440
that I have a few control issues, but um I sat in that room

775
00:57:45.679 --> 00:57:52.639
and had not that I'd never considered
this before, but had this sudden revelation

776
00:57:52.760 --> 00:57:57.079
like oh, I asked my patience
to do this all the time, to

777
00:57:57.519 --> 00:58:02.320
basically like reveal everything there is a
themselves to me, and now I don't

778
00:58:02.360 --> 00:58:07.199
feel willing to do that, you
know, in this group of people.

779
00:58:07.360 --> 00:58:13.480
So it's a it's a big ask, you know. And then patients give

780
00:58:13.599 --> 00:58:19.079
us this like little delicate flower and
we have to really protect it, you

781
00:58:19.119 --> 00:58:23.159
know, and hold it and be
willing to not stomp on it. So

782
00:58:23.480 --> 00:58:28.480
it's time to wrap up this week's
session, but we'll see you next week

783
00:58:28.639 --> 00:58:34.760
on the next session of Psychoanalyzing the
Patient. Bye bye.