364 - Boring Content & Big Breaks That Go Nowhere

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Good morning podcasting Morning
Chat.

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Today is Thursday, September
4th, 2025, And today we've got

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00:00:14,000 --> 00:00:16,040
more podcasting news you'll want
to hear.

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00:00:16,040 --> 00:00:20,800
Like why listeners say your show
just Be might just be boring.

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And what happened when an author
landed a dream guest spot and

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got crickets.
And so if you're listening live

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on Clubhouse's share button,
bottom left hand side of the

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And if you're listening via
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episode with a fellow podcaster.
And now give us about 30 seconds

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and we'll get things rolling.
Thanks for being here.

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Good morning again podcasting
morning chat.

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Thank you so much for being
here.

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I am your host Mark Ronik and on
stage with me my Co hosts we

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have Nick Naul back producer
Ashley Feller, Dr. Fay, Matt

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Bliss and Sid Meadows and a
hello to Dave in the audience.

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Dave Campbell welcome thanks for
being one of our well not one of

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thanks for being the first one
here.

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Bright and early this Thursday
morning seems to be a trend this

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week where we have zero or one
or two people that kick it off

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and it just makes us smile It
just because it's just a weird

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anomaly.
I feel like this week and it's

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totally cool.
We know that the room fills up

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and people participate in the
chat.

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They come up here on stage and
that's what makes this show go

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round.
So yesterday we had so many news

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stories that we had to get to
them today, especially because

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there's a couple of interesting
pieces to get through and

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discuss.
So I think this is a great one

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to start with.
It kind of feels like an

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icebreaker a little bit.
So I'll set it up for you and

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then we can go to the, I'll call
it the icebreaker question.

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So the headline is, is your
podcast quote just boring?

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End Quote A new national study
by the Podcast Study revealed

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that one killer of podcasts at
this year's Podcast movement.

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That's where they made the
announcement and surprisingly

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it's not your audio quality,
it's your content.

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Listeners were brutally honest
about why they bail early. 40%

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said the show was just boring
and a third said it opened with

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meaningless chatter.
And those weren't the only two

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brutally honest answers shared.
I'm curious.

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And Dr. you're not allowed to
play along cuz he answers in

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front of you.
I'm curious if any I I'm

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wondering if anybody has any
guesses as to maybe some other

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reasons.
And again, audio quality ain't

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one of them.
What are some other reasons you

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think this study revealed about
why people bail from your

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podcast?
Good morning, everybody.

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I think it's because people have
the attention span of a gnat now

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and it is a huge problem to
create content is engaging.

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We're in Eclipse world where
everything is a short.

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People don't want to play the
long game.

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I think that's the biggest
problem and that's not a podcast

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problem, that's a environment
problem.

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And I just know this from Lucy
and sports, more kids have seen

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all these highlights of all
these amazing players, but most

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games are boring compared to the
highlights.

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So why did they get to that
position?

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They don't want to know that
it's the same thing.

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It's just like, give me the
Cliff notes or give me the best

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parts.
And I think that's the biggest

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problem and it's a real problem.
I'm not surprised by this at

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all.
Yeah, it's one thing to do some

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soft shoe, but you got to pull
something out of the hat that

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that's even better every week.
I hear you, Alex, and this is

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fascinating to me.
This is almost like a chicken or

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the egg situation.
Here's why I say this.

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It's because, yes, I agree that
today's society is very short on

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attention and we are so used to
getting those quick hits, those

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quick dopamine hits, thanks to
social media, thanks to TikTok

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and Reels and things like that.
I totally agree.

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And I think that it's easy for
us as creators to use that as an

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excuse because let's face it,
most podcasts, or I shouldn't

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say most, I'll just say many,
many podcasts, all they're doing

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is the straight interview.
And yours truly is included in

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this.
When I do the one-on-one

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interviews, I don't do anything
terribly special about it to try

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to keep the attention span other
than making it an interesting

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interview as best I can.
But I'm not doing a lot of other

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things.
Other again, I'm doing little

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things here and there, but I'm
not making that, you know,

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keeping people's attention with
more than just the content

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itself.
I'm not doing that.

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I'm just doing a straight
interview and I think that can

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get boring for.
An audience.

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So what would you, what would
you be doing?

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What?
What's the other side of it that

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you would be doing?
And that's the maybe the

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$1,000,000 question here or
maybe the $1.7 billion question

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here, since that's what the
current jackpot is for Powerball

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this coming Saturday.
Yeah.

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Yes, it's boring, but you're
coming into somebody's face and

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I use this term and it might not
be politically correct, but

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we're all a bunch of washer
women want to know the gossip.

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Sometimes the gossip isn't that
exciting.

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I understand what you're saying,
but I think it's that our tastes

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have changed and the shorts have
kind of killed it.

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And maybe I'm wrong.
Maybe you're right.

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It's we're being quote UN quote
lazy or whatever, but.

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I don't think we're being lazy
and I don't think it.

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Doesn't.
I don't think it has to be a

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dopamine hit every second.
I agree with you there.

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I agree with you there.
Let's hear from some of the

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others before I just hog the mic
completely.

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Nick, I think I saw your hand up
first and then we'll check in

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with Sid.
Go ahead, Nick.

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Hey, good morning, everybody.
So I think people are coming to

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content for mainly one of two
reasons, for education and

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entertainment.
If your show is entertaining

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from start to finish, you're
going to keep people in.

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If you're coming for education,
which is a lot of the content

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that I consume, whether it's
podcasts, see good videos, audio

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bugs, books in general, I want
to learn something.

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And if I can learn something in
a 32nd short that I could also

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learn in a 20 minute video, I'm
going to choose the 32nd short

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because I have a lot of other
things that I want to do or I

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want to start implementing now.
And if I can learn that

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information much quicker, I'm
going to take that option.

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I'm not going to sit around,
listen to the monologue of 15

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minutes before you get to the
stuff that I actually care about

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and want to know.
It's a balancing game.

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And it depends very much how
your show is structured.

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I think a lot of the interview
episodes are typically

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educational ways.
If not, maybe they're interested

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in an individual, which at that
point would be entertainment.

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But yeah.
Yeah, I, I'm with you there,

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Nick.
I think that that's a fair.

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I was going to say assessment,
but I can't think of a better

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word.
So that's what I'm going to use.

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And yeah, I think that's fair.
I think people are coming in.

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Yeah.
If you can keep them entertained

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and give them education, I think
that's a slam dunk.

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But yeah, if you are chit
chatting for 15 minutes before

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you really get to the meat of
it, that could frustrate some

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people.
And that does happen, by the

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way.
I know, maybe not with the

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people on this stage, but it
happens a lot.

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And let's also be honest here, a
lot of podcasters have 0

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experience, not just podcasting,
but being in front of a

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microphone.
It's their first time putting

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themselves out there like this.
And that can be challenging if

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you don't understand how to
entertain or educate an

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audience.
And I'm not saying it can't be

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done.
I'm not saying that this is a

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problem across the board for all
new podcasters.

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But if you're only focusing on
the bells and whistles, the

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technology, having the best
microphones, if you're only

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focusing on those kinds of
things, you're setting yourself

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up to be part of this 40%
audience that says your podcast

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is just boring.
Sid, what do you got for us?

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Good morning.
To go back to the question why

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people think the show was
boring, I think a lot of it has

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to do with the intro being too
long.

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Reading a bio of somebody that
you know.

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I mean listen, I love Mel
Robbins and her podcast, but her

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intro is 6 freaking minutes
long.

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It drives me crazy.
And I think that's part of it

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too.
Like this intro, this.

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And we talked about it in
content like a hook, but maybe

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yes, she gives you a hook, but
damn, she just goes on and on

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and on.
And I think that causes people

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to bounce away from it when just
like, and I've just caught

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myself saying out loud,
listening, if I could just get

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to the conversation, get to the
question.

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I think jumping in and starting
the conversation immediately has

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a lot of power behind it and not
just going on and on in your

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interest.
Thank you, Sid.

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I think that is on point, those
intros, yeah.

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Jr. said something that's really
interesting and it and it has to

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do with one word charisma
because, and again, I'm not, I

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don't want to listen to a 6
minute intro either said.

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But I think if you have an
established podcast and people,

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I think it works both ways.
If you know there's a 6 minute

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intro, you can Fast forward
through it.

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I'm not saying that you're going
to, but I'm just saying like if

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you know their style and the way
they do what they do, there's a

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lot of comfort to that.
And I see both sides.

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Something I'm I'm trying to play
the of course it it's just like,

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you know, we have a certain way
we do this room and I think

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people either like it for a
while and then they don't like

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it or, you know, whatever.
That's the thing that is really

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great.
But you're right, get to the

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point eventually.
I'm not saying you don't get to

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the point, but I think people's
tastes have gotten so much

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shorter.
Nick said it.

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We have the attention span of a
gnat now.

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How many people have ever
listened to Joe Rogan?

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I know Dr. has from start to
finish.

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I mean, he's.
Got shut up without my husband

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shut up.
I'm just saying, I mean, he's

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got some long ass episodes.
Do people actually listen to

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that?
Maybe they do, but I know I've

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never listened to him.
I've never downloaded it.

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But I've seen more of his clips
out there and I've just seen the

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good stuff, whether it's good or
not.

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So I, I think it does have to do
with a little bit of everything.

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And, you know, maybe you're just
tired of the person.

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There could be lots of reasons
and I'll share more of those

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reasons.
I would just want to make sure.

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Did I miss anybody?
Did anybody want to chime in and

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I might have missed you?
OK, just me.

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Oh, go ahead, Dr., and then
we'll go to Matt.

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OK, Oh shoot, I might have
forgotten what I was going.

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To say, all right, I'll go to
Matt.

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I'll go to.
I brought up your boyfriend so

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that's why.
Yeah, that's probably why.

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Let's go to Matt and maybe Dr.
will remember while he's

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sharing.
Go ahead, Matt.

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Good morning.
Good morning.

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I was watching one of my well,
soon to be hopefully close

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friends.
I'm going to interview him on my

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podcast shortly.
Valentin Farkhash in, I think

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he's in Vienna, he's a European
creator.

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He interviewed on his podcast
recently, a YouTube strategist

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who's worked for a few big
people.

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And he mentioned that there is a
study that he's aware of that

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attention spans have actually
been growing longer technically

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over the last 20 years.
So I'm trying to source that

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right now.
But I want to throw that out

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there for anyone who's still
thinking the way that I

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admittedly would have a week or
two ago, that attention spans

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are getting shorter again,
leading to what I've mentioned

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in a on a session earlier this
week.

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The intermittent schedule
rewards the dopamine stuff that

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feeds our brain.
If we can feed that faster, it's

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00:13:11,840 --> 00:13:17,040
good, but it may not necessarily
be causing attention spans to

227
00:13:17,040 --> 00:13:19,400
dip.
Just one thing to think about.

228
00:13:19,640 --> 00:13:26,480
The other thing that I wanted to
mention is that boring is a very

229
00:13:26,840 --> 00:13:31,440
inflammatory but also often
subjective term.

230
00:13:31,960 --> 00:13:35,680
I think we need to extrapolate
further beyond boring.

231
00:13:36,120 --> 00:13:39,880
Something between defining what
boring is and the actions we

232
00:13:39,880 --> 00:13:41,880
have to take to try and avoid
that.

233
00:13:42,400 --> 00:13:44,400
I think we're hearing a lot of
actions at the moment like

234
00:13:44,400 --> 00:13:48,760
shorter intros.
Get the rizz, you know all these

235
00:13:48,760 --> 00:13:51,080
things that we can do.
Please don't say that you're not

236
00:13:51,120 --> 00:13:52,120
old enough to.
Say that.

237
00:13:52,480 --> 00:13:54,000
Please.
Hey I I can deal with that

238
00:13:54,000 --> 00:13:56,040
already, no?
I'm down with the kids.

239
00:13:56,280 --> 00:13:59,760
My wife's a teacher and I, he's
cool with the kids.

240
00:14:00,040 --> 00:14:00,800
Stop.
So I'm cool.

241
00:14:02,800 --> 00:14:04,760
But yeah, those things, they're
actions.

242
00:14:05,160 --> 00:14:08,280
But I think for us, defining
boring is a really important

243
00:14:08,280 --> 00:14:10,120
thing.
And in the context of the show,

244
00:14:10,440 --> 00:14:14,120
it also necessarily correlates
to listenership.

245
00:14:14,800 --> 00:14:17,600
Is it boring to our ideal
listener?

246
00:14:18,000 --> 00:14:21,760
And if that's the case, then
that is a downward trajectory

247
00:14:21,760 --> 00:14:23,880
that you really need to try and
pull up from.

248
00:14:24,400 --> 00:14:28,480
But if it's boring to someone
who's going to wants to is

249
00:14:28,480 --> 00:14:31,960
exploring your podcast for the
first time and isn't your ideal

250
00:14:31,960 --> 00:14:35,640
listener, do we really mind?
Like I was even looking at

251
00:14:35,640 --> 00:14:38,920
trying to find someone's old
podcast for the episode that I

252
00:14:38,920 --> 00:14:41,640
released on mine this week.
It's called Alabaster's

253
00:14:41,640 --> 00:14:43,280
Haberdashery.
Say that three times.

254
00:14:43,360 --> 00:14:48,040
No thanks.
And I saw a comment on Pod

255
00:14:48,040 --> 00:14:51,040
Chaser.
Someone who read it may not have

256
00:14:51,040 --> 00:14:53,160
even listened to it, looked at
it, looked at the description

257
00:14:53,160 --> 00:14:56,400
and said no, I don't think this
podcast is very good.

258
00:14:56,920 --> 00:14:59,360
It says it has improv in it, and
I don't like that.

259
00:15:01,120 --> 00:15:04,360
He would probably say it's
boring, but they're not the kind

260
00:15:04,360 --> 00:15:06,240
of person you weren't listening
to the show either.

261
00:15:06,600 --> 00:15:09,240
So I think the connective tissue
between boring and the actions

262
00:15:09,240 --> 00:15:12,840
we take to make it less boring,
I think that would be a really

263
00:15:12,840 --> 00:15:15,280
good discussion to have
internally and with ourselves as

264
00:15:15,280 --> 00:15:18,560
well as having it here because
it's hard to do it generally,

265
00:15:18,600 --> 00:15:20,520
but you know what I'm saying?
Yeah.

266
00:15:20,720 --> 00:15:23,840
Thank you, Matt.
And I'm very curious once you

267
00:15:23,840 --> 00:15:28,480
learn more about that study from
your upcoming guest, I'm very

268
00:15:28,480 --> 00:15:31,320
curious to hear more about that.
And I think I have actually

269
00:15:31,320 --> 00:15:34,600
heard about that as well.
I think I have recently seen

270
00:15:34,600 --> 00:15:38,200
some headlines that say our
attention spans are actually

271
00:15:38,200 --> 00:15:39,760
getting longer, which is
shocking.

272
00:15:39,760 --> 00:15:44,000
And to your other point, yeah, I
agree with you saying boring is

273
00:15:44,000 --> 00:15:47,480
a little vague, doesn't really
give us a lot, and it could mean

274
00:15:47,480 --> 00:15:50,000
a lot of different things to a
lot of different people.

275
00:15:50,280 --> 00:15:54,160
So I'll also share with you some
other results that might be a

276
00:15:54,160 --> 00:15:58,360
little more specific and maybe
really all falls under that just

277
00:15:58,360 --> 00:16:04,520
boring category.
So for example, 33% said that

278
00:16:04,520 --> 00:16:08,120
the podcast started or starts
with too much meaningless talk,

279
00:16:08,120 --> 00:16:11,720
which is something somebody
brought up this morning, right?

280
00:16:11,720 --> 00:16:16,040
Those long meaningless talks.
Yeah, that they start with it

281
00:16:16,040 --> 00:16:19,080
before they even get to the
actual stuff we want to hear.

282
00:16:19,080 --> 00:16:24,440
We want to we want to be
educated by 26% too much off

283
00:16:24,440 --> 00:16:30,680
topic talk.
So again, same idea. 25% hosts

284
00:16:30,680 --> 00:16:33,640
keep repeating themselves, so
that's a little different.

285
00:16:33,640 --> 00:16:37,640
I don't know that I would put
that under just boring, but I

286
00:16:37,640 --> 00:16:39,040
suppose it could fall under
that.

287
00:16:39,040 --> 00:16:43,720
But in this study, it doesn't.
23% not enough interesting talk.

288
00:16:44,120 --> 00:16:49,760
21% The discussion moved too
slowly, which again might be why

289
00:16:49,760 --> 00:16:53,680
some people, some of those 40
percenters are feeling bored.

290
00:16:54,600 --> 00:16:59,280
19% Definitely not boring under
a boring category. 19% say hosts

291
00:16:59,440 --> 00:17:04,000
talking over one another, which
I like to give us a pat on the

292
00:17:04,000 --> 00:17:08,520
back because you know, right now
we have 7 people that have a

293
00:17:08,520 --> 00:17:12,319
microphone.
And I think sometimes when I

294
00:17:12,319 --> 00:17:15,240
tell people about our show and
the fact that we do it on

295
00:17:15,240 --> 00:17:20,000
Clubhouse, and those who have
used or use Clubhouse, they'll

296
00:17:20,000 --> 00:17:23,960
kind of cock their head and be
like, how do you manage that for

297
00:17:23,960 --> 00:17:25,960
a podcast?
It's got to be chaos.

298
00:17:27,040 --> 00:17:29,960
But we do a great job of that.
So I'm proud of us.

299
00:17:29,960 --> 00:17:35,400
So Pat on the back to US, 16%
say hosts referred to things you

300
00:17:35,400 --> 00:17:39,000
had no context for.
And I think that's a challenge

301
00:17:39,000 --> 00:17:40,760
for us.
I think we do that well.

302
00:17:40,760 --> 00:17:47,120
But being a Daily Show, I don't
think that every listener is

303
00:17:47,120 --> 00:17:49,560
listening to every single
episode, right?

304
00:17:49,560 --> 00:17:53,520
So I try to be mindful if
somebody brings something up

305
00:17:53,520 --> 00:17:57,960
that we've talked about before,
even whether it's on topic or

306
00:17:57,960 --> 00:18:00,680
off topic.
If it starts to become a

307
00:18:00,680 --> 00:18:05,520
discussion, I want to make sure
that a new audience member is up

308
00:18:05,520 --> 00:18:09,000
to speed.
So I try to give out as a little

309
00:18:09,000 --> 00:18:11,280
bit of a back story to give more
context.

310
00:18:11,920 --> 00:18:16,040
And 15% say hosts were trying
too hard to be funny.

311
00:18:18,000 --> 00:18:23,000
Very subjective, but if 15% say
it, I guess it could be a thing.

312
00:18:23,600 --> 00:18:27,760
All right, anyone else want to
add anything before I wrap up?

313
00:18:27,760 --> 00:18:30,200
Go ahead, Alex.
I do, and this is to Matt, my

314
00:18:30,200 --> 00:18:34,000
bra.
I got to go drop off my kid, so

315
00:18:34,640 --> 00:18:37,040
I don't know the other words.
I'm supposed to do you, but

316
00:18:37,840 --> 00:18:41,360
goodbye.
I'm not all up on it, but if you

317
00:18:41,480 --> 00:18:45,280
tell her that something is mid.
I don't, no, we don't use that.

318
00:18:46,040 --> 00:18:48,600
She Bros me.
I had a kid bro me in the in the

319
00:18:48,600 --> 00:18:49,920
class once.
I'm like, dude, we don't do

320
00:18:49,920 --> 00:18:51,400
that.
Yeah, no, I'm not.

321
00:18:51,440 --> 00:18:53,760
I'm not your bro.
OK, it's retro right now.

322
00:18:53,920 --> 00:18:56,680
It's retro.
The other one that I'm hearing,

323
00:18:57,120 --> 00:19:00,720
I'm hearing all the kids say
these days and it is a thing, is

324
00:19:00,720 --> 00:19:03,760
6/7.
I know 6-7.

325
00:19:03,760 --> 00:19:04,880
I don't know what that means.
I.

326
00:19:04,960 --> 00:19:07,600
Don't understand what it means.
What is that?

327
00:19:07,600 --> 00:19:11,960
I don't know.
It's from a pointless rap song

328
00:19:11,960 --> 00:19:14,760
that nobody's ever heard that
they've yet that they've decided

329
00:19:14,760 --> 00:19:17,680
to use as a as a slang calling
card.

330
00:19:17,920 --> 00:19:19,120
Yeah.
Googling it.

331
00:19:19,120 --> 00:19:22,000
Now I'm Googling it.
Yeah, dude, I'm out.

332
00:19:22,280 --> 00:19:25,920
Bye.
See you bro that 6 seven thing

333
00:19:25,920 --> 00:19:31,600
and I even my my former and soon
to be again Co host his kids who

334
00:19:31,600 --> 00:19:34,800
are in middle school and
elementary school.

335
00:19:34,800 --> 00:19:37,960
They apparently say it.
He's asked them to give them an

336
00:19:38,120 --> 00:19:42,640
A definition and they can't.
They can't explain what it is or

337
00:19:42,640 --> 00:19:45,080
why they use it, which is
fascinating.

338
00:19:45,680 --> 00:19:49,000
I got to share this with you.
I went to Google and I typed in

339
00:19:49,280 --> 00:19:52,600
what does and immediately what
does 6-7 mean.

340
00:19:52,600 --> 00:19:55,280
Came up interesting and all I
did was type in what does.

341
00:19:56,200 --> 00:20:01,720
And what did you get?
OK, in slang, 6-7 is a term used

342
00:20:01,720 --> 00:20:05,320
to tell someone to leave or go
away.

343
00:20:05,880 --> 00:20:08,200
Often with dismissive or harsh
tones.

344
00:20:08,200 --> 00:20:12,720
This usage likely comes from a
numeric slang trend around the

345
00:20:12,720 --> 00:20:17,200
2000s, possibly influenced by
police codes or quick exit.

346
00:20:17,760 --> 00:20:20,840
Interesting.
OK, so it's like get lost.

347
00:20:20,840 --> 00:20:23,240
It's like get out of here.
I don't want you around.

348
00:20:23,320 --> 00:20:26,040
You go away, Yeah.
Fascinating.

349
00:20:26,920 --> 00:20:28,520
Well, there you go.
Here's a bunch of old people

350
00:20:28,520 --> 00:20:30,120
talking about young people
stuff.

351
00:20:30,120 --> 00:20:31,880
There you.
Go get off my lawn, I'll.

352
00:20:31,880 --> 00:20:33,520
Tell you what, we definitely
lost.

353
00:20:33,520 --> 00:20:36,200
If we had the a younger crowd,
we definitely lost them because

354
00:20:36,200 --> 00:20:38,320
they're probably annoyed and
like, who are all these old

355
00:20:38,320 --> 00:20:39,560
people?
I'm sure of it.

356
00:20:39,840 --> 00:20:41,120
Matt, did you want to add
something?

357
00:20:42,080 --> 00:20:46,920
I just want to show how refined
my Google search thinks I am.

358
00:20:46,920 --> 00:20:53,080
OK, in the AI overview it tells
me that in the 14th century the

359
00:20:53,080 --> 00:20:56,560
English phrase at sixes and
sevens was from a dice game

360
00:20:56,560 --> 00:21:01,240
called hazard where to set on
sink and seek five and six.

361
00:21:01,440 --> 00:21:04,880
It's probably French stuff, but
anyway, that's pretty refined,

362
00:21:04,880 --> 00:21:08,840
right?
And another origin is from Hindu

363
00:21:08,840 --> 00:21:09,800
mythology.
About me?

364
00:21:09,920 --> 00:21:13,360
That's horrible.
From Hindu mythology, the number

365
00:21:13,360 --> 00:21:16,080
six and seven are symbolized by
figures like the six armed 7

366
00:21:16,080 --> 00:21:20,240
headed deity Vishnu representing
a balance of cosmic forces.

367
00:21:20,600 --> 00:21:22,280
So I'm just throwing that out
there.

368
00:21:22,280 --> 00:21:25,200
If you transcribe this, I'm
hoping the Internet picks it up

369
00:21:25,200 --> 00:21:27,640
and it becomes, it proliferates
a little bit.

370
00:21:27,920 --> 00:21:31,440
Maybe we can get the kids some
culture beyond just the rap

371
00:21:31,440 --> 00:21:34,480
music.
Well, I'm feeling very cultured

372
00:21:34,480 --> 00:21:38,320
because look, the fact that I
even knew that 6-7 is a thing, I

373
00:21:38,320 --> 00:21:42,080
think that's a win for me
because I don't have any kids

374
00:21:42,080 --> 00:21:46,040
that age anymore.
They're all in their 20s now.

375
00:21:46,040 --> 00:21:48,120
They're all the, the, I guess
that's Gen.

376
00:21:48,120 --> 00:21:49,920
Z.
I'm, I'm trying to get also up

377
00:21:49,920 --> 00:21:53,840
to speed on what generation is,
applies to what age group,

378
00:21:53,840 --> 00:21:55,760
etcetera.
God, I feel old.

379
00:21:55,760 --> 00:22:00,560
OK, I think we've exhausted that
part of the conversation.

380
00:22:00,560 --> 00:22:03,680
And as I said, we have a lot of
other stories and this next one

381
00:22:03,680 --> 00:22:06,720
is pretty interesting too.
Dr. You want to take this one?

382
00:22:07,520 --> 00:22:12,960
So an author guested on one of
the biggest podcasts around and

383
00:22:14,760 --> 00:22:17,120
crickets.
Crickets.

384
00:22:17,600 --> 00:22:20,640
So author Amy, that's I was
waiting for that.

385
00:22:20,640 --> 00:22:25,760
That's what I was waiting for.
OK, So Amy Mcnee, I'm, I think

386
00:22:25,760 --> 00:22:27,280
that's the way she pronounces
her name.

387
00:22:27,560 --> 00:22:32,480
Mcnee, an author and creative
coach, landed what most

388
00:22:32,480 --> 00:22:35,640
creatives consider, you know,
the Holy Grail of exposure.

389
00:22:35,640 --> 00:22:39,360
It's a guest spot on Jay
Shetty's On Purpose, one of the

390
00:22:39,360 --> 00:22:44,200
biggest podcasts in the world.
So friends, publishers, even her

391
00:22:44,200 --> 00:22:48,360
Uber driver told her this was
the moment she'd just blow up.

392
00:22:48,800 --> 00:22:54,320
But when the episode aired, the
numbers of the numbers told a

393
00:22:54,320 --> 00:22:57,560
different story.
Book sales actually dipped

394
00:22:57,920 --> 00:23:04,480
slightly, from 311 copies the
week before to 308 the week that

395
00:23:04,480 --> 00:23:07,120
it dropped.
Followers didn't rise.

396
00:23:07,120 --> 00:23:11,360
Reached didn't expand.
In other words, there was no

397
00:23:11,520 --> 00:23:16,120
discernible bump from one of the
world's most powerful podcast

398
00:23:16,120 --> 00:23:20,880
platforms.
So Amy's take away was proximity

399
00:23:20,880 --> 00:23:24,840
to power doesn't equal power.
Exposure doesn't guarantee

400
00:23:24,840 --> 00:23:27,440
success.
The cavalry isn't coming.

401
00:23:27,880 --> 00:23:33,040
Real creative success comes from
steady small wins, loyal

402
00:23:33,040 --> 00:23:36,800
audiences and direct
relationships, not from hoping a

403
00:23:36,800 --> 00:23:40,960
single big break quote UN quote
big break will change

404
00:23:40,960 --> 00:23:43,440
everything.
This is so fascinating to me,

405
00:23:43,440 --> 00:23:48,120
Dr. and I.
I wonder first, is this actually

406
00:23:48,240 --> 00:23:50,920
a follow up to the last story?
It would May.

407
00:23:51,080 --> 00:23:53,840
Was she maybe too boring?
Yeah.

408
00:23:54,120 --> 00:23:56,520
And this might be getting into
something that we were going to

409
00:23:56,520 --> 00:23:59,000
plan for another day.
I don't want.

410
00:24:00,160 --> 00:24:05,000
OK, so when you are going on a
show to promote something, there

411
00:24:05,000 --> 00:24:10,080
is an inherent job that has to
be done that both the

412
00:24:10,080 --> 00:24:15,560
interviewer and the interviewee
they have to do.

413
00:24:16,360 --> 00:24:22,440
And so my job is are my question
is who did not do their job?

414
00:24:23,040 --> 00:24:28,680
It is Jay Shetty is certainly, I
mean, he's big, but it doesn't

415
00:24:28,720 --> 00:24:33,520
mean that he, you know, read all
the notes on this particular,

416
00:24:34,680 --> 00:24:39,520
this particular guest, even the
best of interviewers has a bad

417
00:24:39,520 --> 00:24:43,280
day, so.
Yeah, that's fair.

418
00:24:43,360 --> 00:24:47,760
I mean, that's certainly fair.
And at the same time, I've

419
00:24:47,760 --> 00:24:51,720
listened to Jay Shetty's show
before multiple times to

420
00:24:51,720 --> 00:24:54,920
different shows.
I did not hear this particular

421
00:24:54,920 --> 00:24:59,200
one, but I will give Jay Shetty
the benefit of the doubt that he

422
00:24:59,200 --> 00:25:03,800
did his job because he asks
excellent questions in all these

423
00:25:03,800 --> 00:25:05,440
different interviews he's done.
Go ahead.

424
00:25:05,760 --> 00:25:09,600
And if he didn't do it, then he
you probably would not be.

425
00:25:10,320 --> 00:25:11,880
It probably wouldn't be
published.

426
00:25:13,280 --> 00:25:15,320
Well, yeah, that's true too.
Yeah, that's true too.

427
00:25:15,320 --> 00:25:17,080
Let's hear from Sid.
Sid, what do you want to add?

428
00:25:17,840 --> 00:25:20,360
I'll take a little bit of a
different approach to this.

429
00:25:20,680 --> 00:25:23,600
I'm wondering if she went on the
show for all the wrong reasons,

430
00:25:24,640 --> 00:25:26,840
right?
She went on the show to, you

431
00:25:26,840 --> 00:25:29,160
know, increase her fame or to
become famous.

432
00:25:29,160 --> 00:25:32,360
She's on Jay Shetty show, right?
Which is obviously a really

433
00:25:32,360 --> 00:25:35,080
popular show, and he's really
popular.

434
00:25:35,120 --> 00:25:37,920
Or sometimes, you know, if you
have the right intention of

435
00:25:37,920 --> 00:25:40,680
doing things, then you get the
right results.

436
00:25:40,680 --> 00:25:43,120
But it sounds like to me she may
have had the wrong intention

437
00:25:43,120 --> 00:25:45,360
with this.
She was out there seeking fame

438
00:25:45,880 --> 00:25:50,280
rather than out there trying to
impact people and their lives

439
00:25:50,280 --> 00:25:53,160
through her book.
And so I wonder if that had

440
00:25:53,160 --> 00:25:56,160
something to do with it.
And maybe that came through in

441
00:25:56,160 --> 00:25:59,080
her in her interview, right?
So I think you have to really

442
00:25:59,080 --> 00:26:01,960
pay attention to what is the
intention of why you're doing

443
00:26:01,960 --> 00:26:03,280
this.
Why are you going on this

444
00:26:03,280 --> 00:26:07,200
particular show?
And if it's seeking fame, that

445
00:26:07,280 --> 00:26:10,840
15 minutes of fame, it likely is
going to backfire on you.

446
00:26:11,960 --> 00:26:13,680
This is interesting.
Yeah.

447
00:26:13,680 --> 00:26:17,240
Could this have been?
Yeah, the intention of, yeah,

448
00:26:17,320 --> 00:26:20,120
I'm getting on there because
it's going to give me maximum

449
00:26:20,120 --> 00:26:22,800
exposure and my book sales are
going to go through the roof

450
00:26:23,160 --> 00:26:26,240
instead of really, what's your
message?

451
00:26:26,280 --> 00:26:29,280
What are you trying to, you
know, you, you want to get your

452
00:26:29,280 --> 00:26:31,200
message out to as many people as
possible.

453
00:26:31,200 --> 00:26:35,880
That's different to me, right?
You have something intentional

454
00:26:35,960 --> 00:26:39,200
that you're trying to do.
You want to educate people, give

455
00:26:39,200 --> 00:26:43,480
them new perspectives.
But if you're going in because

456
00:26:43,480 --> 00:26:47,280
you just want to get more book
sales, even if you do share your

457
00:26:47,280 --> 00:26:50,440
wisdom, there's a different
energy you're creating around

458
00:26:50,440 --> 00:26:53,880
the interview.
It's very possible.

459
00:26:53,880 --> 00:26:57,360
And yeah, to Sid's point also,
maybe it's not a good fit

460
00:26:57,400 --> 00:26:59,240
either.
Maybe, even though this is the

461
00:26:59,240 --> 00:27:05,080
biggest show, maybe this wasn't
what his audience wanted.

462
00:27:06,000 --> 00:27:10,560
Was this article something that
she like interviewed or she was

463
00:27:10,560 --> 00:27:12,960
interviewed and talked about
this or is this something that

464
00:27:12,960 --> 00:27:16,160
she published?
I think that so we found this on

465
00:27:16,160 --> 00:27:20,280
Pod News and they were reporting
her.

466
00:27:20,320 --> 00:27:23,720
I think it was a blog that she
wrote after the interview and

467
00:27:23,720 --> 00:27:25,240
after the results of the
interview.

468
00:27:26,040 --> 00:27:31,440
But keep in mind that the
interview was a month ago and

469
00:27:32,000 --> 00:27:35,600
you know, this is on demand kind
of listening.

470
00:27:35,600 --> 00:27:41,000
I'm wondering what the long term
effects will be.

471
00:27:41,400 --> 00:27:46,200
And plus this is in summertime
when you know, there's not

472
00:27:46,200 --> 00:27:52,440
really that a month ago was in
the heights of usually low, low

473
00:27:52,760 --> 00:27:56,640
ratings.
So it's interesting to figure

474
00:27:56,640 --> 00:28:00,680
out what the long term that's.
True, it could still turn around

475
00:28:00,680 --> 00:28:03,000
for her at any point.
Absolutely, Nick.

476
00:28:03,000 --> 00:28:08,560
Yeah, continue, obviously.
Not having read the article in

477
00:28:08,560 --> 00:28:12,600
full, I can't say for certain,
but like I'm assuming this

478
00:28:12,600 --> 00:28:16,960
wasn't her intent, but it kind
of seems like she's a little bit

479
00:28:16,960 --> 00:28:20,840
budding the Jay Shetty podcast
on blast in a way.

480
00:28:21,520 --> 00:28:25,440
And I think the long term
problem for her is going to be

481
00:28:25,440 --> 00:28:27,400
that she's not going to be able
to get on the podcast.

482
00:28:27,640 --> 00:28:30,680
If she goes on a show, it
doesn't boost your sales and

483
00:28:30,680 --> 00:28:35,280
then spits out a blog post
talking about it that I can't

484
00:28:35,280 --> 00:28:37,720
imagine any big name podcasters
you're going to want to.

485
00:28:41,680 --> 00:28:46,400
That that could be.
Really put them on blast, but I

486
00:28:46,400 --> 00:28:49,000
feel like that's kind of a that
was the initial vibe I got.

487
00:28:49,360 --> 00:28:53,360
Yeah, And I will say that she
also, Dr. she, I think you know

488
00:28:53,360 --> 00:28:57,000
what I was sharing here about or
you were sharing here about her

489
00:28:57,000 --> 00:28:59,040
takeaways.
I mean, that was real.

490
00:28:59,040 --> 00:29:01,640
That came from her.
It wasn't our takeaways, even

491
00:29:01,640 --> 00:29:03,000
though we happened to agree with
it.

492
00:29:03,200 --> 00:29:06,000
But when she talks about
proximity to power doesn't equal

493
00:29:06,000 --> 00:29:08,880
power, Exposure doesn't
guarantee success.

494
00:29:09,200 --> 00:29:13,640
At the very least, she learned
that after doing this interview

495
00:29:13,640 --> 00:29:17,040
and and she wanted to share that
with her readers.

496
00:29:17,240 --> 00:29:20,720
So I just wanted to bring up a
little bit of irony that the

497
00:29:20,720 --> 00:29:25,240
title of the show that she did
with Jay Shetty is called

498
00:29:25,280 --> 00:29:31,040
Blocked by Fear of Being Judged.
Here's How to Stop Caring and

499
00:29:31,040 --> 00:29:34,320
Unblock Your Creativity.
Now I want to go hear the

500
00:29:34,320 --> 00:29:37,320
episode because that's a that's
a thing for me sometimes.

501
00:29:37,600 --> 00:29:42,240
Well, I put the link in our DMS
with Ashley and you and me I put

502
00:29:42,240 --> 00:29:44,920
the link to Awesome.
To it so we will make sure to

503
00:29:44,920 --> 00:29:48,280
link to that in the show notes.
Renee is on stage.

504
00:29:48,280 --> 00:29:51,320
Welcome back, Renee.
Did you want to add to all this?

505
00:29:51,560 --> 00:29:54,560
Yeah, that was a great segue
into what I was going to say.

506
00:29:54,560 --> 00:29:56,160
Perfect.
We planned it that way.

507
00:29:56,480 --> 00:29:58,480
Yes, you followed the script on
script.

508
00:29:58,480 --> 00:30:03,960
Again, my thought was what a
marketer would do is say, OK,

509
00:30:03,960 --> 00:30:08,200
we're not going to let this die.
There's still some chance to

510
00:30:08,200 --> 00:30:10,560
pull this out.
Let's do a blog on it.

511
00:30:10,560 --> 00:30:12,880
What can the blog be?
You're going to take a hit.

512
00:30:12,880 --> 00:30:14,760
You're going to say that you
didn't.

513
00:30:14,880 --> 00:30:17,920
Whatever didn't resonate, you're
going to I I agree with

514
00:30:17,920 --> 00:30:19,600
Nicholas.
So it's kind of like putting A

515
00:30:19,800 --> 00:30:23,240
blog the host on blast.
Think about it.

516
00:30:23,440 --> 00:30:27,600
She has created curiosity.
You even said it, Mark.

517
00:30:27,600 --> 00:30:29,440
Hey, I kind of want to go listen
to it now.

518
00:30:29,560 --> 00:30:32,960
So through keeping creating the
curiosity, she could get some

519
00:30:32,960 --> 00:30:37,160
more bumps or some pity listens.
Can we call them pity listens?

520
00:30:37,880 --> 00:30:40,160
You know, just like, hey, let's
go listen to it.

521
00:30:40,160 --> 00:30:41,680
Let's see if we can figure it
out.

522
00:30:41,680 --> 00:30:46,000
Like, what was so bad about it?
Maybe her listeners didn't, you

523
00:30:46,000 --> 00:30:49,160
know, even listen to it because
that's who's reading the blog,

524
00:30:49,160 --> 00:30:50,600
right?
The listeners like, oh, shoot,

525
00:30:50,600 --> 00:30:52,520
you weren't J Shetty.
Oh, I missed that.

526
00:30:52,960 --> 00:30:56,160
So I think that would be a
marketer in her team would be

527
00:30:56,160 --> 00:30:58,040
saying, hey, let's just ride
this out.

528
00:30:58,040 --> 00:31:02,520
What all can we do with it?
However, I do think it's in poor

529
00:31:02,520 --> 00:31:05,360
form, not saying it was the best
thing to do.

530
00:31:05,360 --> 00:31:08,920
And I also think that the way
the algorithm works, I would

531
00:31:08,920 --> 00:31:11,600
probably never.
I listen to a lot of J Shetty's,

532
00:31:11,600 --> 00:31:15,000
but it's on health selective
things that he talks about with

533
00:31:15,000 --> 00:31:18,200
health, but I'm not going to get
that in my algorithm probably.

534
00:31:18,200 --> 00:31:23,800
And so a month really doesn't
seem like a lot of time to get

535
00:31:23,800 --> 00:31:27,280
through the cycle.
And then what if they didn't do

536
00:31:27,280 --> 00:31:32,840
good SEOI mean, when we've been
on YouTube, we've written our

537
00:31:32,840 --> 00:31:36,240
SEO for our episode and we hand
it to them.

538
00:31:36,560 --> 00:31:39,080
And that we've even gone back a
year or so later because we have

539
00:31:39,080 --> 00:31:43,640
a runaway blog or a video and
we've gone back and adjusted it

540
00:31:44,000 --> 00:31:47,520
just to keep the views.
This could be a perfect storm

541
00:31:48,040 --> 00:31:51,880
where it just everything just
wasn't top notch and she's the

542
00:31:51,880 --> 00:31:55,520
downside of it and she's feeling
it and it could be your topic.

543
00:31:55,520 --> 00:31:57,640
I don't know.
Thank you, Renee.

544
00:31:58,000 --> 00:31:59,720
I really appreciate the
perspectives.

545
00:31:59,960 --> 00:32:03,360
First, yeah, this could
absolutely be have been a

546
00:32:03,360 --> 00:32:07,960
marketing move 100%.
And and look at I mean, we don't

547
00:32:07,960 --> 00:32:11,200
know the results yet from this
move, but look, even Pod News

548
00:32:11,200 --> 00:32:15,000
picked up this story.
Maybe her and her team submitted

549
00:32:15,000 --> 00:32:17,200
it to Pod News or maybe Pod News
found it.

550
00:32:17,200 --> 00:32:19,360
Doesn't matter.
The point is, is that it's

551
00:32:19,360 --> 00:32:23,640
getting more attention.
She found a way to to basically

552
00:32:23,640 --> 00:32:26,800
make lemon out of lemonade or
lemonade out of lemons.

553
00:32:28,600 --> 00:32:32,600
So I think that there, there is
something to that and it's a

554
00:32:32,600 --> 00:32:36,160
little inspiring to me.
It's like, OK, so something

555
00:32:36,160 --> 00:32:39,480
didn't go well.
How can I leverage that to make

556
00:32:39,480 --> 00:32:42,960
it go right for me?
And I find it fascinating 'cause

557
00:32:42,960 --> 00:32:46,080
you're not the only one on stage
who has questioned whether or

558
00:32:46,080 --> 00:32:50,640
not it was a good move for her
as far as or you, as you put it,

559
00:32:50,640 --> 00:32:53,560
poor form, right?
Calling out that it didn't work

560
00:32:53,560 --> 00:32:56,080
for her.
But I don't personally see it

561
00:32:56,080 --> 00:32:58,600
that way.
I don't see it as poor form

562
00:32:58,600 --> 00:33:03,560
because it feels like, for one,
it would be poor form if she was

563
00:33:03,560 --> 00:33:07,800
coming from a wounded place.
I'm sure some of you have heard

564
00:33:07,800 --> 00:33:11,560
that expression before, right?
It it's more effective, more

565
00:33:11,560 --> 00:33:16,200
powerful when you're sharing,
once you've that wound has

566
00:33:16,200 --> 00:33:20,040
healed where you can now share.
Yeah.

567
00:33:20,040 --> 00:33:23,760
You had a bad experience,
something that you didn't expect

568
00:33:23,760 --> 00:33:25,320
happened.
That wasn't the result you

569
00:33:25,320 --> 00:33:27,720
wanted, but what did you learn
out of it?

570
00:33:27,720 --> 00:33:32,240
I'm going through this right now
with the Empowered Podcasting

571
00:33:32,240 --> 00:33:37,680
Conference.
I have this month been really

572
00:33:37,680 --> 00:33:41,200
looking back at the mistakes I
made along the way.

573
00:33:41,280 --> 00:33:42,880
You know, you hear, you've heard
me.

574
00:33:42,880 --> 00:33:45,800
If you've been following us
here, you've heard me.

575
00:33:45,960 --> 00:33:49,800
I'll say, complain about the
fact that it's been so difficult

576
00:33:49,800 --> 00:33:55,280
to get sponsors.
You've heard me share my anxiety

577
00:33:55,280 --> 00:34:00,200
about ticket sales because
ticket sales tend to be very

578
00:34:00,200 --> 00:34:02,640
last minute for these types of
events.

579
00:34:04,240 --> 00:34:08,960
And that's forced me to start
analyzing what went wrong and

580
00:34:08,960 --> 00:34:12,400
learn from it.
And I've been debating back and

581
00:34:12,400 --> 00:34:14,440
forth.
Do I talk about that at the

582
00:34:14,440 --> 00:34:16,800
conference when I give my
opening remarks?

583
00:34:17,480 --> 00:34:22,360
And actually speaking to one of
my coaches, that was what the

584
00:34:22,360 --> 00:34:26,880
message was from her to me was.
You can talk about it, but make

585
00:34:26,880 --> 00:34:28,880
sure it's coming from a healed
place.

586
00:34:28,880 --> 00:34:34,000
Because Mark, you're the leader
here and you don't want to set

587
00:34:34,000 --> 00:34:39,320
the tone of the event from a
wounded place because that's the

588
00:34:39,320 --> 00:34:42,960
kind of energy you're going to
give out and it's going to be

589
00:34:42,960 --> 00:34:44,920
received and it's going to set
the wrong tone.

590
00:34:45,360 --> 00:34:50,719
But wounds can be wrapped up in
a bow and presented as if they

591
00:34:50,719 --> 00:34:54,480
are from a heel, heel place.
So knowing the motive is really

592
00:34:54,480 --> 00:34:58,320
hard to know what her, you know
what her motive is, but you're

593
00:34:58,320 --> 00:35:01,040
100% that's that's when you do
want to share.

594
00:35:01,040 --> 00:35:05,080
But as a marketer, sometimes you
wrap things up with a bow and

595
00:35:05,080 --> 00:35:08,600
you put them out, you know, just
just to get the job done.

596
00:35:08,600 --> 00:35:10,520
Yep, absolutely.
Yeah, I hear you.

597
00:35:10,520 --> 00:35:12,280
I was.
Going to say, like with your

598
00:35:12,280 --> 00:35:17,760
example, like the big difference
that I see is that you talking

599
00:35:17,760 --> 00:35:22,320
about these fears, anxieties of
the Empowered Podcasting

600
00:35:22,320 --> 00:35:26,320
Conference and all that is a
little bit different because

601
00:35:27,000 --> 00:35:31,360
you're not, you're not saying,
well, I spoke to my coach and

602
00:35:31,360 --> 00:35:33,800
after I got done speaking to my
coach, now here we are.

603
00:35:33,800 --> 00:35:37,440
And I'm having trouble getting
sponsors now where it's almost,

604
00:35:37,680 --> 00:35:41,080
it seems like as a result of
something.

605
00:35:41,520 --> 00:35:44,400
This is where we are.
And that's kind of how I took

606
00:35:44,560 --> 00:35:46,920
this article.
And the more I'm thinking about

607
00:35:46,920 --> 00:35:49,680
it, the more I kind of agree
with Renee that that whole deal

608
00:35:49,680 --> 00:35:53,120
was a marketing strategy because
why would you drop Jay Shetty's

609
00:35:53,120 --> 00:35:57,200
name unless you were wanting to
use it to gain attention?

610
00:35:57,680 --> 00:36:00,080
She could have very easily come
out with an article that she was

611
00:36:00,080 --> 00:36:04,200
on a very well known podcast
without necessarily name

612
00:36:04,200 --> 00:36:09,400
dropping and again, putting him
on blast, But that's not going

613
00:36:09,400 --> 00:36:12,920
to be as effective from a
marketing standpoint.

614
00:36:13,240 --> 00:36:15,040
What makes this a bad thing,
Nick?

615
00:36:15,040 --> 00:36:18,320
Really.
Because again, I'm looking at

616
00:36:18,320 --> 00:36:22,160
this as she's taken lemons and
made lemonade out of the

617
00:36:22,160 --> 00:36:25,720
situation.
And again, to be clear, the blog

618
00:36:25,720 --> 00:36:30,680
wasn't her just saying what a
piece of crap of a show on

619
00:36:30,680 --> 00:36:32,760
purposes.
Jay Shetty's a terrible

620
00:36:32,760 --> 00:36:35,560
interviewer.
She wasn't placing the blame on

621
00:36:35,560 --> 00:36:37,480
the show.
She was trying to point out

622
00:36:37,480 --> 00:36:40,640
that, as you're saying, she was
on one of the biggest shows in

623
00:36:40,640 --> 00:36:43,560
podcasting and it did nothing
for her.

624
00:36:44,320 --> 00:36:46,800
And what?
Did she learn like a backhanded?

625
00:36:46,960 --> 00:36:50,720
It feels like a backhanded
slight to Jay.

626
00:36:51,400 --> 00:36:52,840
Yeah.
And and maybe part of that is

627
00:36:52,840 --> 00:36:55,720
because I haven't read the whole
article, Like I don't have the

628
00:36:55,720 --> 00:36:58,160
whole scope of what was said.
Like we just kind of have the

629
00:36:58,160 --> 00:37:00,520
Cliff notes of it.
Yeah, that might completely

630
00:37:00,520 --> 00:37:03,560
change my tune if it depending
on how it was written.

631
00:37:03,880 --> 00:37:07,440
But just hearing how it was
presented kind of gives me the

632
00:37:07,440 --> 00:37:10,440
ick.
OK, we are definitely going to

633
00:37:10,440 --> 00:37:14,880
link to this story in the show
notes so that people can kind of

634
00:37:14,880 --> 00:37:17,280
get a better perspective.
And I hope that you all can

635
00:37:17,280 --> 00:37:22,120
trust me when I say that she
really wasn't coming at J Shetty

636
00:37:22,120 --> 00:37:26,800
or his show on purpose.
Quote from where she stops

637
00:37:26,800 --> 00:37:31,880
talking about the podcast and
book sales in probably the top

638
00:37:31,880 --> 00:37:36,040
30% of the article on Substack
where she mentions mentions it

639
00:37:36,400 --> 00:37:40,040
was I disappointed a little but
more than anything I felt

640
00:37:40,040 --> 00:37:43,920
fascinated and it has added more
evidence to a theory I am

641
00:37:43,920 --> 00:37:46,360
developing.
A quick note about thanks to Jay

642
00:37:46,360 --> 00:37:50,240
for having on the podcast, not,
you know, not criticizing him in

643
00:37:50,240 --> 00:37:54,560
any way, blah, blah, blah.
And then on to a theory about

644
00:37:54,560 --> 00:37:59,400
artists being influenced and
told that success comes from

645
00:37:59,400 --> 00:38:03,440
external forces, that you must
put yourself out there in order

646
00:38:03,440 --> 00:38:06,400
for things to come back to you.
It's not about big breaks.

647
00:38:06,400 --> 00:38:09,000
It's about little wins.
Mark, I think you're right on

648
00:38:09,000 --> 00:38:12,320
the money.
The context has been mixed,

649
00:38:12,320 --> 00:38:14,560
especially for the podcasting
space.

650
00:38:14,800 --> 00:38:18,640
And I would have probably said
the same thing last week when we

651
00:38:18,640 --> 00:38:20,760
were talking about the Taylor
Swift stuff.

652
00:38:22,000 --> 00:38:26,600
All the LinkedIn posts saying
podcasting is validated because

653
00:38:26,600 --> 00:38:31,880
Taylor Swift talked about her
album on a podcast here, kind of

654
00:38:31,880 --> 00:38:35,280
the same thing.
But the reversal where someone

655
00:38:35,280 --> 00:38:40,760
is making a commentary about art
and creativity off the back of

656
00:38:40,760 --> 00:38:44,080
being on a podcast.
All of us closer to podcasting.

657
00:38:44,080 --> 00:38:48,400
Look at that from the podcasting
lens and how much we wouldn't

658
00:38:48,400 --> 00:38:50,400
appreciate that as a podcast
host.

659
00:38:51,160 --> 00:38:56,040
But the main point she's making
has nothing to do with Jay

660
00:38:56,040 --> 00:38:58,880
Shetty and his podcast
specifically.

661
00:38:59,480 --> 00:39:03,400
I think there's a lot of
hyperbole that gets drawn

662
00:39:03,400 --> 00:39:06,120
without context.
There's more context than it

663
00:39:06,120 --> 00:39:08,520
definitely to be read, so dive
into it when you can.

664
00:39:09,240 --> 00:39:12,400
But I think you're right, Mark,
There are times like this that

665
00:39:12,400 --> 00:39:19,320
we look at things like this and
try to derive why it was brought

666
00:39:19,320 --> 00:39:22,600
about this way, that why would
she mention the podcast

667
00:39:22,600 --> 00:39:25,280
specifically?
Why in the context of podcasting

668
00:39:25,280 --> 00:39:29,960
does she feel like she has to
say this about how podcasting

669
00:39:30,080 --> 00:39:34,200
sucks for selling books?
We've discussed all the wheels

670
00:39:34,200 --> 00:39:37,080
at play here.
There are so many moving parts

671
00:39:37,400 --> 00:39:39,840
and that is always the unique
thing with podcasting.

672
00:39:40,560 --> 00:39:44,840
It is a Gray area and there is
no hack for it.

673
00:39:45,200 --> 00:39:49,400
Otherwise we'd see hundreds of
podcasts where people just talk

674
00:39:49,400 --> 00:39:52,960
about their book and their book
sales skyrocket.

675
00:39:53,440 --> 00:39:57,040
I don't think the New York
bestseller list has a podcast

676
00:39:57,200 --> 00:40:01,200
where they have people pay to be
on their show so that they can

677
00:40:01,400 --> 00:40:05,120
sell more books to to punch
those numbers up artificially or

678
00:40:05,120 --> 00:40:09,840
whatever.
We are very keen to explore a

679
00:40:09,840 --> 00:40:13,160
theory about podcasting and we
want to make sure that.

680
00:40:14,120 --> 00:40:18,080
What we're doing is justified
and valid and important to the

681
00:40:18,080 --> 00:40:23,000
world, and something like this I
don't think invalidates anything

682
00:40:23,000 --> 00:40:25,920
really.
I think the goal is the

683
00:40:25,920 --> 00:40:28,760
conversation we've had today.
There's no result.

684
00:40:28,760 --> 00:40:31,360
There's no right or wrong
person.

685
00:40:31,360 --> 00:40:34,360
I don't think blaming anybody
for anything is constructive.

686
00:40:34,560 --> 00:40:39,040
What she's done with the sub
stack where she mentioned it and

687
00:40:39,080 --> 00:40:43,360
unpacked it into a theory about
artists and how they are imposed

688
00:40:43,360 --> 00:40:46,440
on the world, about creating
value through external

689
00:40:46,440 --> 00:40:51,920
validation, is her result.
Our result is maybe, you know,

690
00:40:51,920 --> 00:40:54,760
if you're trying to sell
someone's book for them in an

691
00:40:54,760 --> 00:40:58,280
interview, there's a way to do
that well and a way to not do

692
00:40:58,280 --> 00:41:01,400
that well.
If you're only going on podcasts

693
00:41:01,400 --> 00:41:05,120
as a guest, a lot of booking
agencies will tell you to

694
00:41:05,120 --> 00:41:08,720
guarantee you more listenership,
sales and clients and you're not

695
00:41:08,720 --> 00:41:11,200
getting that.
Maybe that tells you as the

696
00:41:11,200 --> 00:41:15,320
podcast guest, this isn't the
only channel you should use.

697
00:41:15,360 --> 00:41:19,440
And don't expect huge results
because you're on a Stephen

698
00:41:19,440 --> 00:41:24,440
Bartlett podcast or AJ Shetty
podcast or Joe Rogan, you know,

699
00:41:24,440 --> 00:41:27,480
however that goes, I can't
imagine it would go well every

700
00:41:27,480 --> 00:41:29,440
single time.
But all of that to say, like

701
00:41:29,440 --> 00:41:32,040
there are different, different
results for different people

702
00:41:32,200 --> 00:41:35,080
with different takeaways.
And I don't think anyone should

703
00:41:35,080 --> 00:41:36,840
be offended.
This is one of those situations

704
00:41:36,840 --> 00:41:40,120
where there's data and people
are trying to figure out what it

705
00:41:40,120 --> 00:41:44,560
means to them and the industry.
I don't think anyone was wrong

706
00:41:44,560 --> 00:41:47,800
here, but it is all very
interesting.

707
00:41:48,520 --> 00:41:52,680
Thank you, Matt, for both your
insights and for quoting the

708
00:41:52,680 --> 00:41:55,200
article.
And as you were sharing it, it

709
00:41:55,200 --> 00:41:57,880
was a light bulb.
I was just remembering, looking

710
00:41:57,880 --> 00:42:01,680
at that particular line to the
line about the fact that, you

711
00:42:01,680 --> 00:42:05,720
know, we shouldn't be depending
on external forces.

712
00:42:06,760 --> 00:42:10,080
I think that's a really big one
for us or, and, and it

713
00:42:10,080 --> 00:42:11,800
definitely is for me.
It hits home for me.

714
00:42:11,800 --> 00:42:15,040
And when I read it, it hit home
for me again, that's something

715
00:42:15,040 --> 00:42:19,440
that I'm personally going
through right now is recognizing

716
00:42:19,440 --> 00:42:26,160
how much I depend on how much I
hope that external forces are

717
00:42:26,160 --> 00:42:31,440
going to deliver me success.
I know maybe I don't share that

718
00:42:31,440 --> 00:42:33,280
a lot.
And that's really something that

719
00:42:33,280 --> 00:42:36,840
I'm going through a lot that I'm
starting to really recognize and

720
00:42:37,400 --> 00:42:40,160
looking to correct.
So yeah, I'm glad that you

721
00:42:40,160 --> 00:42:42,600
pointed that out.
I think it, like you said, I saw

722
00:42:42,600 --> 00:42:46,440
the hearts go up for Nick too.
So I, I think he appreciated

723
00:42:46,440 --> 00:42:48,360
that as well.
I think that's a really

724
00:42:48,360 --> 00:42:51,480
important perspective to share.
And Sid, I know you wanted to

725
00:42:51,480 --> 00:42:55,360
share something as well.
I think it's a little similar to

726
00:42:55,360 --> 00:42:59,600
what Matthew's just shared,
which is life is full of lessons

727
00:43:00,400 --> 00:43:05,200
and you can choose to see the
lesson, understand the lesson,

728
00:43:05,200 --> 00:43:07,360
heed the lesson ever going to
say, or you can choose to ignore

729
00:43:07,360 --> 00:43:10,640
the lesson.
This to me sounds like it's an

730
00:43:10,640 --> 00:43:13,720
article where she shared what
she learned, the lessons that

731
00:43:13,720 --> 00:43:16,960
she learned from being on this
podcast, right?

732
00:43:17,640 --> 00:43:20,720
And then she, it was, I haven't
read the article, but according

733
00:43:20,720 --> 00:43:23,600
what Matt just said, doesn't
sound like the entire article is

734
00:43:23,600 --> 00:43:27,080
about it, right?
But I think it's great to be

735
00:43:27,080 --> 00:43:30,160
able to with your community,
whether it gets picked up by

736
00:43:30,160 --> 00:43:32,880
others or not, is to share what
you've learned from the

737
00:43:32,880 --> 00:43:35,040
experiences because that helps
people, right?

738
00:43:35,040 --> 00:43:37,520
That helps people grow, helps
them move forward.

739
00:43:37,520 --> 00:43:40,920
There's a lot of positive to
sharing what you've learned

740
00:43:40,920 --> 00:43:44,120
through something.
And as long as I personally, I

741
00:43:44,120 --> 00:43:46,840
think it should be shared in a
positive light and how it

742
00:43:46,840 --> 00:43:50,000
impacted you and how it's helped
you move forward because that's

743
00:43:50,000 --> 00:43:51,520
what really, really what people
want.

744
00:43:51,520 --> 00:43:54,080
So sounds like she shared the
lessons she learned.

745
00:43:54,080 --> 00:43:56,440
But again, I'm going to go back
to what I said a minute ago,

746
00:43:56,520 --> 00:43:59,320
which is what was her intention?
What is her intention?

747
00:43:59,320 --> 00:44:01,840
Because she mentions book sales,
right?

748
00:44:02,280 --> 00:44:05,160
Because she mentioned some
things about her growth and

749
00:44:05,600 --> 00:44:07,480
those kind of thing.
It just makes me feel like her

750
00:44:07,480 --> 00:44:11,200
intention was to go on that show
to sell more books.

751
00:44:11,520 --> 00:44:14,680
And I don't know that that's
resonating with people.

752
00:44:15,160 --> 00:44:18,400
I'm interviewing an author
friend of mine who wrote a book,

753
00:44:18,480 --> 00:44:22,880
and I said to him, I'd love to
have you on the show so that we

754
00:44:22,880 --> 00:44:27,280
could talk about what you do and
the lessons in your book.

755
00:44:27,480 --> 00:44:29,480
But I want to read the book
first.

756
00:44:30,080 --> 00:44:32,440
So he's going to be on the show
probably the first or second

757
00:44:32,440 --> 00:44:35,720
episode of the next season.
Because I want to be able to

758
00:44:35,720 --> 00:44:38,080
read the book and be able to
draw my lessons from the book

759
00:44:38,080 --> 00:44:43,880
and talk about the book without
it being, oh, go buy his book,

760
00:44:44,160 --> 00:44:46,240
right?
Because I can bring him on now

761
00:44:46,240 --> 00:44:48,760
and not have read the book and I
can get him to promote his book

762
00:44:48,760 --> 00:44:50,520
and maybe he gets a couple
sales, maybe he doesn't.

763
00:44:50,520 --> 00:44:53,640
Maybe my audience gets pissed.
But I want to read the book so

764
00:44:53,640 --> 00:44:57,240
that we can have a good
conversation about the book and

765
00:44:57,240 --> 00:45:00,320
the lessons in the book and have
my listeners can apply those

766
00:45:00,320 --> 00:45:05,160
lessons in their daily life.
Thank you, Sid, and I appreciate

767
00:45:05,160 --> 00:45:07,680
the perspective.
And I'm curious though, do you

768
00:45:07,680 --> 00:45:13,120
think that this friend of yours,
do you think it is one goal, one

769
00:45:13,120 --> 00:45:16,280
intention that he hopes that
some books get sold from being

770
00:45:16,280 --> 00:45:19,360
on your show?
Knowing him the way that I do,

771
00:45:19,360 --> 00:45:22,560
his intention is not to, his
intention would not to be to

772
00:45:22,560 --> 00:45:26,360
sell books, right?
His intention would be that

773
00:45:26,440 --> 00:45:30,200
people, his area of expertise
and hire him to come speak to

774
00:45:30,200 --> 00:45:32,720
their groups and do training for
the groups because he does a lot

775
00:45:32,720 --> 00:45:35,920
of that.
And his book is basically his

776
00:45:35,920 --> 00:45:39,800
training that he does in the
written format, right?

777
00:45:40,040 --> 00:45:42,600
So I think his intention would
be, I haven't asked him this and

778
00:45:42,600 --> 00:45:46,000
I will, but I think his
intention would be to, if

779
00:45:46,000 --> 00:45:47,600
somebody wants to do something,
I'd love it if they buy the

780
00:45:47,600 --> 00:45:49,360
book.
But more importantly, I'd love

781
00:45:49,360 --> 00:45:51,560
it if they hired me to come and
talk to their group so I can

782
00:45:51,560 --> 00:45:56,880
help impact their organization.
Sid, who is an actor, an author,

783
00:45:57,440 --> 00:46:00,720
somebody?
Yeah, that like a favorite

784
00:46:00,720 --> 00:46:04,520
actor, favorite author of yours.
So right now what I'm going to

785
00:46:04,520 --> 00:46:10,040
say is my favorite author at the
moment that I've read all of his

786
00:46:10,040 --> 00:46:12,800
books is Wally Lamb.
He's a non fiction writer.

787
00:46:13,080 --> 00:46:19,080
OK, so if Wally Lamb has a new
book out and he is on The

788
00:46:19,080 --> 00:46:23,040
Tonight Show talking about it
and talk and or being

789
00:46:23,040 --> 00:46:25,320
interviewed, I should say, do
you?

790
00:46:25,400 --> 00:46:29,320
Do you think he isn't?
You think he's on that show to

791
00:46:29,320 --> 00:46:31,400
not sell some books?
Sorry about my throat.

792
00:46:31,760 --> 00:46:34,000
You think he's not on that show?
You know what I mean?

793
00:46:34,080 --> 00:46:36,520
So.
Don't confuse this, right?

794
00:46:36,680 --> 00:46:38,760
They want to sell books.
That's how they get paid, right?

795
00:46:38,760 --> 00:46:43,680
I totally understand that.
But if I reached out to Matthew

796
00:46:43,680 --> 00:46:46,520
and said, hey, I got a new book,
I want to be on your show and my

797
00:46:46,520 --> 00:46:50,520
intention to be on that show is
to do nothing but sell books,

798
00:46:50,720 --> 00:46:53,360
then I think the episodes going
to fall flat, right?

799
00:46:53,520 --> 00:46:56,480
That's my intention.
Your intention should be to

800
00:46:56,480 --> 00:46:59,440
impact, right, to help people,
to serve people.

801
00:46:59,760 --> 00:47:01,160
At least that's my intention,
right?

802
00:47:01,440 --> 00:47:04,000
And so, and that's what I
believe your intention should

803
00:47:04,000 --> 00:47:06,120
be.
If you want to say, hey, I'm

804
00:47:06,120 --> 00:47:08,040
going to sell a freaking
thousand books for doing this

805
00:47:08,040 --> 00:47:11,280
episode, I think you're going on
this show for all the wrong

806
00:47:11,280 --> 00:47:15,000
reasons.
Bingo, you bullseye.

807
00:47:16,120 --> 00:47:18,120
That's really where I was going
with that.

808
00:47:18,120 --> 00:47:21,200
Those questions to you.
It's it's it shouldn't be and I

809
00:47:21,200 --> 00:47:25,120
don't like shooting all over
people, but it shouldn't be the

810
00:47:25,120 --> 00:47:30,680
only goal or the first intention
of going on a podcast or a show

811
00:47:30,680 --> 00:47:34,280
or promoting you're that
shouldn't be the first thing.

812
00:47:34,280 --> 00:47:36,360
The first thing is what you
said, right?

813
00:47:36,360 --> 00:47:39,000
It's to make an impact.
It's to spread a message.

814
00:47:40,040 --> 00:47:44,600
But I, I believe it's totally
cool to have selling books as a

815
00:47:44,600 --> 00:47:48,640
goal or promoting whatever it is
or selling whatever services or

816
00:47:48,640 --> 00:47:53,160
products you're selling.
That can be a goal, but it's in

817
00:47:53,160 --> 00:47:56,160
our opinion, shouldn't be the
driving factor.

818
00:47:56,640 --> 00:47:59,520
Jay's such a thorough
interviewer, he doesn't leave

819
00:47:59,520 --> 00:48:02,720
stones unturned.
So if he did not leave any

820
00:48:02,720 --> 00:48:06,600
curiosity to read the book, then
people aren't going to want to

821
00:48:06,600 --> 00:48:08,960
buy the book.
If they feel they got all of it

822
00:48:08,960 --> 00:48:13,400
from that one to two hour
session, then the curiosity

823
00:48:13,400 --> 00:48:15,840
wasn't sparked and they're not
going to want to go buy the

824
00:48:15,840 --> 00:48:17,560
book.
So without hearing the episode,

825
00:48:17,560 --> 00:48:21,320
as others have said before,
we're speculating without total

826
00:48:21,720 --> 00:48:23,120
understanding of what happened
there.

827
00:48:23,120 --> 00:48:26,160
But that that's I, I listened to
something, they were really

828
00:48:26,160 --> 00:48:29,760
pushing a book sale and was
like, I heard what I needed to

829
00:48:29,760 --> 00:48:31,560
hear.
I remember thinking that just

830
00:48:31,560 --> 00:48:34,200
recently it was like, this was
good.

831
00:48:34,200 --> 00:48:35,760
I got what I need.
I can't imagine there's more

832
00:48:35,760 --> 00:48:38,000
depth to it.
I've I've got the gist of it.

833
00:48:38,000 --> 00:48:41,400
So that's got to be part of it.
Renee, the same thing happened

834
00:48:41,400 --> 00:48:43,880
to me.
One of my favorite podcast is

835
00:48:43,880 --> 00:48:47,840
called Coaching for Leaders, and
he interviewed a student that

836
00:48:47,840 --> 00:48:50,080
was part of his program.
And I'm like, oh, great, I'm

837
00:48:50,080 --> 00:48:53,160
going to hear this person.
And then I listen to it.

838
00:48:53,160 --> 00:48:54,120
I thought, well, that's kind of
let down.

839
00:48:54,120 --> 00:48:56,240
And then had another episode
interviewing a student.

840
00:48:56,240 --> 00:48:59,200
Then all of a sudden, they're
like dawned on me that he's

841
00:48:59,200 --> 00:49:02,040
interviewing his students
because he's about to open his

842
00:49:02,040 --> 00:49:07,000
membership and he's doing these
short episodes not to serve his

843
00:49:07,000 --> 00:49:11,760
audience, but to promote his
program and to the results of

844
00:49:11,760 --> 00:49:14,360
what people are getting.
And it turned me off, so I quit

845
00:49:14,360 --> 00:49:17,840
listening and I won't listen
again until he goes back to his

846
00:49:17,840 --> 00:49:21,000
normal style of episodes.
Are your points well taken?

847
00:49:21,520 --> 00:49:23,040
Thank you, Renee, and thank you,
Sid.

848
00:49:23,160 --> 00:49:27,000
I have a podcast pitch, OK, And
if someone like to action this

849
00:49:27,000 --> 00:49:28,640
absolutely sounds like there's a
market for it.

850
00:49:29,080 --> 00:49:33,960
Let's say that there's a podcast
where someone is interviewing

851
00:49:34,040 --> 00:49:37,600
people selling books that
justify why people should buy

852
00:49:37,600 --> 00:49:41,320
their book.
And the intended audience is

853
00:49:41,720 --> 00:49:46,360
retailers, booksellers, online
marketplaces, and the

854
00:49:46,360 --> 00:49:50,720
justification is these people
telling that particular audience

855
00:49:50,840 --> 00:49:54,160
why they should stock their book
and how well it will sell.

856
00:49:55,240 --> 00:49:59,280
It kind of reminds me a bit of
like a Shark Tank, Yeah, kind of

857
00:49:59,280 --> 00:50:01,600
a little bit, right.
They're not necessarily pitching

858
00:50:01,800 --> 00:50:05,440
to buy, you know, or put their
book in the stores, but it's

859
00:50:05,480 --> 00:50:10,000
still a similar idea to me.
Yeah, I think, I think my only

860
00:50:10,000 --> 00:50:12,600
point book tank perfect.
OK, actually we're making this

861
00:50:12,600 --> 00:50:15,360
happen.
We're going to sell guest spots.

862
00:50:15,680 --> 00:50:19,760
But my my point with that is
what we should and like throwing

863
00:50:19,760 --> 00:50:22,200
shoots around again, completely
get it, Mark.

864
00:50:22,360 --> 00:50:27,200
But that is an example of a
podcast that is perfect for

865
00:50:27,200 --> 00:50:30,240
someone who's looking to talk
about their book and try to sell

866
00:50:30,240 --> 00:50:32,440
it.
And that is the intention that

867
00:50:32,440 --> 00:50:37,400
lines up on both sides for the
podcaster and the guest and the

868
00:50:37,400 --> 00:50:41,000
audience.
There is a scenario where all of

869
00:50:41,000 --> 00:50:44,080
these things line up.
But knowing what all those

870
00:50:44,080 --> 00:50:47,360
intentions are and having them
all, oh look, we're getting a

871
00:50:47,360 --> 00:50:49,920
bunch of book titles in here.
Yeah, a bunch of this podcast

872
00:50:49,920 --> 00:50:52,560
titles, yeah.
I've stimulated the little

873
00:50:53,120 --> 00:50:55,560
bubbles there.
But yeah, I just want to say

874
00:50:55,560 --> 00:50:59,120
that like, you know, there,
there's no absolutes in it.

875
00:50:59,120 --> 00:51:02,280
You said that, Mark, but there
is a place for something like

876
00:51:02,280 --> 00:51:03,920
this.
I can't imagine many people

877
00:51:03,920 --> 00:51:06,520
would enjoy it.
It'd be a very small audience.

878
00:51:06,760 --> 00:51:08,960
You're not learning a lot except
whether a book will sell.

879
00:51:09,120 --> 00:51:13,200
But there is an example of a
podcast that you know all these

880
00:51:13,200 --> 00:51:15,200
things could happen in if it
would work.

881
00:51:15,280 --> 00:51:18,520
And it could appeal to a more
broad audience in the sense

882
00:51:18,520 --> 00:51:20,880
that, I mean, they're obviously
going to have to talk a bit

883
00:51:20,880 --> 00:51:23,920
about the book, the message, you
know, with the intention of the

884
00:51:23,920 --> 00:51:25,720
book, etcetera.
And that could raise enough

885
00:51:25,720 --> 00:51:29,720
curiosity to where, OK, I'm
listening, I hear this author

886
00:51:30,000 --> 00:51:31,240
and they're sharing about their
book.

887
00:51:31,240 --> 00:51:35,800
I'm like, maybe I should go read
that book, Although is it that

888
00:51:35,800 --> 00:51:37,920
they haven't?
Is it just a concept at that

889
00:51:37,920 --> 00:51:40,440
time?
Is it a concept idea?

890
00:51:40,440 --> 00:51:44,240
Or is it actually a a book
that's done printed and they're

891
00:51:45,000 --> 00:51:49,880
looking to get it on shelves?
We go to a lot of book fairs and

892
00:51:49,880 --> 00:51:53,680
see a lot of new authors.
We always ask them what's your

893
00:51:53,680 --> 00:51:57,640
book about?
And, and it's interesting how

894
00:51:57,920 --> 00:52:02,640
the writers either can really
sell it or they really can't.

895
00:52:03,560 --> 00:52:07,800
And it's it because we all have
our wheelhouse and some for

896
00:52:07,800 --> 00:52:09,360
writers.
It might not necessarily always

897
00:52:09,360 --> 00:52:12,480
be selling or public speaking,
but I think it's a it's not a

898
00:52:12,480 --> 00:52:14,640
bad idea.
I'm just thinking of the

899
00:52:14,640 --> 00:52:17,840
children's bookmark it parents
never know what book is

900
00:52:17,880 --> 00:52:21,720
appropriate for what age.
And we were at this one book

901
00:52:21,720 --> 00:52:26,520
fair and it was a lot of not
adult, but like young adult

902
00:52:26,520 --> 00:52:29,840
stuff and subjects Lucy wasn't
ready for yet.

903
00:52:29,920 --> 00:52:31,440
I don't think I was ready for
some of them.

904
00:52:31,640 --> 00:52:33,120
It's really kind of an
interesting thing.

905
00:52:33,680 --> 00:52:35,520
And just to round it out
quickly, because Mark, I know

906
00:52:35,520 --> 00:52:38,800
you want to finish this up, I
can see we're crowdsourcing a

907
00:52:38,800 --> 00:52:43,520
book idea here, a podcast idea,
sorry, idea for book stuff.

908
00:52:44,280 --> 00:52:46,440
But you know, maybe pitch
refinement as well.

909
00:52:46,440 --> 00:52:47,760
That's what you're talking about
there, Alex.

910
00:52:47,760 --> 00:52:51,760
Like help book authors figure
out how to pitch their book

911
00:52:51,760 --> 00:52:53,960
properly and stuff.
All of a sudden book tank

912
00:52:53,960 --> 00:52:56,760
becomes the thing.
But I'm sorry, Mark, a couple of

913
00:52:56,760 --> 00:53:01,080
minutes from me and it turned
into I love it minutes more.

914
00:53:02,120 --> 00:53:04,880
I love seeing topics get legs
like that.

915
00:53:05,200 --> 00:53:07,120
Billy, I'm giving you the final
word.

916
00:53:07,120 --> 00:53:09,040
Go for it.
What's up, Mark?

917
00:53:09,360 --> 00:53:13,000
I'll take that idea one step
further and I'll say, and I've

918
00:53:13,000 --> 00:53:17,160
been saying this for years,
someone should start a podcast

919
00:53:17,160 --> 00:53:21,240
or a show on Amazon Live and
bring people on who sell their

920
00:53:21,240 --> 00:53:23,080
books on Amazon.
I've been saying this for years

921
00:53:23,080 --> 00:53:24,880
and years.
No one's done it, but I'll tell

922
00:53:24,880 --> 00:53:28,080
everyone that too, so you can
get those individuals to buy it

923
00:53:28,080 --> 00:53:30,480
and maybe attention of some
bigger buyers as well.

924
00:53:31,680 --> 00:53:34,800
And, and so, you know, well,
first of all, I mean, just to go

925
00:53:34,800 --> 00:53:37,400
back, I can't remember when I
even jumped up on the stage.

926
00:53:37,720 --> 00:53:41,920
But all this whole story reminds
me, and I've told the story

927
00:53:41,920 --> 00:53:46,160
before of this guy who came on
one of my shows from a company

928
00:53:46,160 --> 00:53:48,760
called Crossnet.
So him and his brother and his

929
00:53:48,760 --> 00:53:52,080
buddy all drink beers on a
Saturday night until they came

930
00:53:52,080 --> 00:53:55,200
up with this game that put
Foursquare and volleyball

931
00:53:55,200 --> 00:53:58,080
together.
And he went on this crazy

932
00:53:58,080 --> 00:54:00,360
campaign tour he did over, I
don't even know, I mean,

933
00:54:00,360 --> 00:54:03,840
hundreds of can't or hundreds of
podcast interviews.

934
00:54:04,320 --> 00:54:05,920
And you know, he came on my
show.

935
00:54:05,920 --> 00:54:08,000
He didn't even, he talked about
the product.

936
00:54:08,000 --> 00:54:10,480
They talked about the process to
getting to the product.

937
00:54:11,000 --> 00:54:13,640
And he just told his story.
And I said, how is this going

938
00:54:13,640 --> 00:54:15,680
for you?
Like you came on my show, which

939
00:54:15,680 --> 00:54:18,680
is very small, like I didn't
have anybody listening.

940
00:54:19,040 --> 00:54:21,840
What do you think the return of
your investment of this hour is

941
00:54:21,840 --> 00:54:23,520
going to be?
And he's like, I don't care.

942
00:54:23,800 --> 00:54:27,120
It's bringing awareness and so
far we're doing $1,000,000

943
00:54:27,120 --> 00:54:30,720
back-to-back months and the only
marketing we're doing is getting

944
00:54:30,720 --> 00:54:35,200
on podcast of all sizes.
And so his expectation was not,

945
00:54:35,320 --> 00:54:38,160
I'm going to go on Billy's
podcast and close 10 deals.

946
00:54:38,160 --> 00:54:41,400
It's like I'm going to bring
awareness to the sport because

947
00:54:41,400 --> 00:54:42,960
it's new.
I'm going to bring awareness to

948
00:54:42,960 --> 00:54:46,640
our our world.
And so I do think there's a lot

949
00:54:47,120 --> 00:54:50,440
because, you know, I've been on
stages with famous people, but

950
00:54:50,440 --> 00:54:53,040
that doesn't make me famous.
That doesn't mean anybody sees

951
00:54:53,040 --> 00:54:56,760
me, you know, I mean, you watch
a Taylor Swift concert to bring

952
00:54:56,760 --> 00:54:59,480
her back in the conversation.
You probably see a lot of

953
00:54:59,480 --> 00:55:03,600
amazing, talented, awesome
people who are well known in

954
00:55:03,600 --> 00:55:08,080
their industry that no one knows
their name in that audience.

955
00:55:08,400 --> 00:55:11,360
But if it wasn't for them, they
wouldn't even be there.

956
00:55:11,440 --> 00:55:14,880
So I think that's the thing that
we all have to keep in mind as

957
00:55:14,880 --> 00:55:17,160
creatives, as business owners,
as entrepreneurs.

958
00:55:17,480 --> 00:55:20,080
You don't know when the next pop
off is going to happen.

959
00:55:20,120 --> 00:55:23,320
You might assume it's going to
be on the next podcast you're

960
00:55:23,320 --> 00:55:25,920
on, but it could be from
something totally different.

961
00:55:26,440 --> 00:55:28,320
Our only job is to always be
ready.

962
00:55:28,440 --> 00:55:31,680
Like, let's just be ready for it
because it could happen.

963
00:55:31,680 --> 00:55:33,320
Maybe it doesn't ever happen.
Who knows?

964
00:55:34,040 --> 00:55:37,120
Billy, thank you.
That was a wonderful way to wrap

965
00:55:37,120 --> 00:55:41,280
things up because we kind of
started with her story of we'll,

966
00:55:41,440 --> 00:55:45,600
we'll call it failure, right?
And then your story of success

967
00:55:46,240 --> 00:55:51,560
as far as promoting something on
a show, how to make that work or

968
00:55:51,560 --> 00:55:54,200
not work right.
So thank you for bringing that.

969
00:55:54,200 --> 00:55:57,480
I really appreciate it and
really enjoyed today's

970
00:55:57,480 --> 00:56:01,200
conversation.
The I had a feeling we had

971
00:56:01,520 --> 00:56:05,680
multiple stories lined up here,
probably 6-7 different stories,

972
00:56:05,680 --> 00:56:09,360
and I LED with these two because
I had a feeling we'd have plenty

973
00:56:09,440 --> 00:56:12,240
to talk about it.
And you all did not disappoint.

974
00:56:12,600 --> 00:56:16,840
A reminder that we're back
tomorrow for show #365 Now you

975
00:56:16,920 --> 00:56:20,240
as a listener can go and listen
to the podcasting morning chat

976
00:56:20,520 --> 00:56:26,440
every single day for an entire
year, which is pretty cool to

977
00:56:26,440 --> 00:56:29,120
say.
So join us tomorrow, 7:00 AM

978
00:56:29,120 --> 00:56:30,920
Eastern.
We do have a topic we're going

979
00:56:30,920 --> 00:56:32,960
to discuss.
We're I'm thinking about talking

980
00:56:32,960 --> 00:56:39,040
about podcast titles and podcast
cover art and specifically the

981
00:56:39,040 --> 00:56:42,240
rules of thumb and if they
really matter.

982
00:56:43,200 --> 00:56:45,040
Right, we're not going to talk.
About the different types of

983
00:56:45,080 --> 00:56:47,520
eggs that Dr. make.
No, not going to do that

984
00:56:47,520 --> 00:56:50,760
tomorrow.
But what we will do is as an

985
00:56:50,760 --> 00:56:55,960
example, should podcast be in
your title, the word podcast and

986
00:56:56,560 --> 00:57:02,480
should you use or shouldn't you
use a microphone image in your

987
00:57:02,480 --> 00:57:04,440
cover art?
It's still a thing.

988
00:57:04,440 --> 00:57:09,480
I just saw something the other
day about somebody saying don't

989
00:57:09,640 --> 00:57:11,920
use the word podcast in your
title.

990
00:57:12,040 --> 00:57:15,280
And I saw something else saying
don't use a microphone in your

991
00:57:15,280 --> 00:57:17,080
cover art.
And I want to talk a little bit

992
00:57:17,080 --> 00:57:20,000
about that.
And then, of course, wrap up

993
00:57:20,000 --> 00:57:22,440
tomorrow with wins from the past
week.

994
00:57:22,440 --> 00:57:24,360
We want to hear all of our
community wins.

995
00:57:24,560 --> 00:57:27,560
What's been working for you.
We want to hear and celebrate

996
00:57:27,560 --> 00:57:29,360
with you.
I have some that I'd like to

997
00:57:29,360 --> 00:57:31,440
share tomorrow.
So looking forward to that.

998
00:57:31,440 --> 00:57:34,600
And until then, make it a great
day.

999
00:57:34,600 --> 00:57:35,720
Everybody take care.