469. How ‘Swindled’ Turns Outrage Into Addictive Listening

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Good morning podcasting Morning
Chat.

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Today is Monday, March 9/20/26
and today is our obsession

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worthy podcast show.
We're going to be listening to

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Swindled episode called The
Formula, The boycott of Nestle,

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and Jonathan Howard is going to
lead us in a great discussion

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about what makes this obsession
worthy and what we can learn

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from it.
So if you're listening on

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Clubhouse, hit the share button,
bottom left hand side of the

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Clubhouse LED you.

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If you want to join us live on
the video, go to

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us.

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And if you're catching this via
podcast, YouTube, LinkedIn or

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one of those other platforms, do
me a favor and share this

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episode with a fellow podcaster.
Now give me about 30 seconds and

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we'll get things going.
Thanks for being here today.

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Well, good morning podcasting,
morning chat.

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So glad to have you here today.
Joining me today.

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We have producer Ashley, we have
Jonathan Howard, BC Babbles and

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Junaid.
So thank you so much for joining

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us today.
So Jonathan, if you want to go

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ahead and start talking about
obsession worthy today we're

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talking about swindled the
formula.

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Yes, we are talking about
swindled the formula.

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I'm not sure if you did the
intro for us that we always do

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just obsession worthy podcast.
The reason we do it is to learn

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a little bit about what other
podcasts are doing.

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And I decided to take a look at
some true crime because that is

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a hot category of podcasts and
Swindled is a true crime

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podcast, so figured we would
take a look at that one.

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And that's where we're going.
So Swindled turns corporate

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wrongdoing into like a bendable
story engine.

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It's not like here's the
scandal, it's more who profited,

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who got hurt, who knew about it,
why it was covered up and how

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the system allowed it to be
built.

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So it's a really interesting
dive into true crime and the

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real magic swindles is that it
never leaves the story at like,

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here's a bad thing that
happened.

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It keeps pushing forward towards
the motive, the pattern, the

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institutional failures that
happened.

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And that's what makes it truly
obsession worthy.

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It's true crime that goes deeper
than the crime.

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So that is important.
Now this episode pattern that's

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kind of used is there's moral
outrage.

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When you hear the topics, you're
morally outraged.

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There's some pattern recognition
that you'll notice as we go

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through this episode.
It uses receipts as a way to

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obviously show what happened
really happened.

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And then it ends with a belief
flip, which is not only is it

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tragic, but why did it happen?
And that belief flip is really

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important because it rewires how
you interpret the world.

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After you listen to the episode,
you're like, wait a minute, let

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me think about that again.
And that's what makes it really

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truly obsession worthy.
Any questions about that so far?

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I have some universal themes and
then we'll jump into that first

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clip.
You ready for the first clip,

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Jonathan?
High up on the desolate plateau

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of northwestern China, 20
families live in this remote

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village in earthen caves.
It's isolated but not insulated

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from the outside world.
Liu Ling wanted the best for her

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first baby, a son, so she
purchased the San Liu Milk

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Powder, a national brand, a
fancy product for this poor

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household.
It was all her son Xu Chen Chen

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ever drank for eight months
until he died.

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Doctors in China were perplexed
as to why there was a sudden

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increase of sick infants during
the winter months of late 2006.

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Early 2007 emergency rooms
across the country were filled

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with worried mothers and fathers
and their young children who

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were howling in pain.
All of the children had similar

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kidney related ailments.
Their stomachs were extremely

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bloated and many of them had
developed kidney stones and were

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urinating blood that was thick
and granulated like sand and

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water.
And not only were their

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conditions painful, they were
potentially fatal.

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And I forgot to tell you to pay
attention to the narrier's voice

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in there because that was going
to bring it be an important

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aspect of it.
The episode officially talks

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about the 1977 Nestle's boycott,
but it uses the Chinese baby

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milk scandal as its prelude.
Now.

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They're using it to really set
the expectations for the

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episode.
And you'll also notice,

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obviously, Swindle promised to
expose greed.

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So you're going to get a little
bit of that, obviously.

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So you have this knowledge of
what you're going into with this

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episode.
So we listened to that first

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clip and I did say it
establishes an instant formula

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crisis in China and it sets the
scene for the rest of the

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episode.
And I mentioned also pay

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attention to voice and tone of
the main narrator because that

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is important for the episode.
Jonathan, I just wanted to make

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a comment here because I really
enjoyed this this show.

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The thing that I noticed,
though, I was out walking when I

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was listening to it, it took
them about 14 minutes to get the

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front end of that set up.
I don't know how you felt about

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that or whether you felt that
was a little bit too long.

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Well, so there was a reason that
they did that and actually it

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uses about and I think with ads
it was about 14 minutes, but it

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a prologue to set the scene for
the main podcast.

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So it establishes the way the
creator wants you to view the

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main story before you even get
to the Nestle thing.

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So what it's doing is it's
setting the pattern like so you

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recognize immediately in in the
Nestle story, OK, these are the

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things that are going, this is
something that's wrong.

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You know, there's something
wrong with the way infant

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formula is handled and you start
to see the pattern before it's

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even explained to you.
So I think that is as a

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storytelling device.
The prologue was really, really

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interesting and useful.
And actually, I'll talk about at

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the end of this, but a lot of
the podcast that we've used are

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used that same sort of format,
just in a different way.

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The prologue, it is long.
It is long, but you have to look

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at it as priming the brain.
And I threw this in here for a

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mark, you know, it's all a
Blue's Clues.

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It's telling you, you need to
look for patterns and giving you

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those clues for what you should
be looking for in the main

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podcast.
So it connects to the story in a

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bigger way.
It creates a pattern recognition

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loop and you're subconsciously
looking for repeated mistakes,

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similar incentives, and the same
kind of cover ups.

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And the ads to me really didn't
seem like they were difficult in

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this particular one, but I did
like the on ramp that we got to.

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I thought that was really good.
It's a doorway that they bring

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you into it.
So I think it could have been

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shorter.
And at first when I started

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listening, I was like, wait a
minute, thought this was about

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Nestle.
But after listening to it, I

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really I understood what they
were doing and it really makes

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you lean into the investigation
of the host.

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Like you, you already trust the
host by the time you get to the

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the main investigation.
The one thing I was going to say

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about the host was the at first,
his monotone delivery and

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seemingly disinterested tone was
infuriating for me.

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Like I could not.
I was like, I don't know if I'm

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going to make it to the end of
this one.

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But then I realized that his
deadpan delivery kind of made

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the story hit harder because it
was really calm.

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It wasn't melodramatic, it
wasn't getting excited when

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things were going crazy.
So it let the story and the

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facts do the talking, which I
thought was really interesting,

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but at first it was driving me
nuts.

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I felt the exact Jonathan.
I felt the exact same way.

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I thought to myself.
I looked down and I said, OK,

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this is 47 minutes, you know,
how long is this going to go?

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Am I going to make it to the
end?

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Yeah.
And after really the prologue, I

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was used to it and I was, I was
comfortable with the way that he

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was narrating.
But at first it was really a

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little bit much.
Yeah, because he starts to build

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a relationship with you, is what
I found.

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And you're right.
I felt the exact same set set of

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emotions, Jonathan.
At first I was like, oh, I

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cannot handle this guy for an
hour.

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But then he started, you know,
it was kind of an endearing

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thing, as I said, OK, well, this
is the way this guy's going to

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do it.
And I thought they did a good

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job of leading me into being a
supporter of that.

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Yeah.
And I think if it had been a

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little bit more breathless or
like, Oh my God, this is

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happening, it would have
actually made the the show feel

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a little bit cheaper than it
was.

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I thought it really came off
well done, even with his

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monotone delivery.
I think if it was more dramatic

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it would have not actually
helped the show.

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I tend to agree with you.
I think that that was an

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intentionality that really
worked out well because I think

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you're right.
If it it had been sensational,

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we have been like, you know,
what am I watching some

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sensational TV show?
But it worked well for this one.

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Yeah.
The one thing that I wanted to

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point out is like the prologue,
it also makes you realize that

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you're not listening to 1 bad
story, you're listening to a

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problem that's universal.
And that is something that we

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will see in this second clip.
The second clip is the

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transition from the Chinese
prelude to the Nestle baby

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formula story and how marketing
was the core problem.

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And we are all doomed.
So we are.

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All doomed, but the real
question is why are so many

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children with healthy mothers
capable of breastfeeding being

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bottle fed in the 1st place?
The answer to that question is

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marketing.
One company's marketing in

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particular?
Nestle, the largest food and

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beverage company in the world, a
company that critics and

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environmentalists have labeled
the most evil company in the

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world.
And this story is just one of

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the reasons why an international
boycott ensues after a

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multinational corporation is
accused of contributing to the

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deaths of millions of infants
around the world on this episode

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of Swindled.
What does everybody feel like

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when you heard that first?
Like that intro?

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What did that do for you?
I got to tell you, I want to

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bring him to every dinner party
because he is the most positive

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person I've ever heard.
Seriously, he really knows how

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to set the stage.
It's an uncomfortable topic.

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He's very.
Monotone, but he gets his point

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across.
But he's a special kind of spice

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if you're not used to it.
Jonathan, we want to go to Nick.

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Nick and then BC had a comment.
You want to go first, Nick?

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I think that it's it's pretty
interesting the way that I don't

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know if it's how all of the
episodes are, but how they start

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with the story of what happened
in China to lead into the Nestle

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stuff.
Because in my opinion, if they

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didn't do that, like them being
able to make that bridge in that

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connection take something that's
a lot, in my opinion, more hard

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hitting, grab your attention
then if they were to just kind

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of kick everything off with the
Nestle thing.

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I I kind of think they'd lose
people right away.

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So I think it's an interesting
strategic move that they did by

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tying in a more dramatic story.
Does that make sense?

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What I'm saying?
Yeah, and you're 100% right.

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Go ahead, BCI, see you wanted to
make a comment.

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Going back to a a recent point
made here where this is an

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uncomfortable topic, you know,
true crime in general is an

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uncomfortable topic and even
corporate scandal, maybe even

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more so because it's a larger
scale, arguably more insidious

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kind of discussion.
But for me, and with this

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approach he took by establishing
this socio economic pattern

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experienced by people in certain
parts of the world to lead into

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how Boom Nestle fed into this
and took advantage of it.

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I get the strategic tactic
behind it, but to listen to

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someone so melancholy tried to
tried to deliver it when other

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true crime hosts tend to be more
forward still kind of, you know,

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not downtrodden in tone, but
melancholy.

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But I guess what I'm trying to
say is I'm more experienced with

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true crime hosts who are
melancholy but who have a

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certain pace or a certain force
behind the delivery of the

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story.
So that regardless of the

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technique they used to build up
into the main meat of the

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episode, it's easier to stay
engaged with them.

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With this particular host I
found it really difficult to

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follow through with the build up
and stick with it until they got

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to the meat of the story.
I see what you're saying there

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00:12:54,120 --> 00:12:58,160
and yes, and I think one thing
that they did to kind of keep

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00:12:58,160 --> 00:13:02,320
you moving is there was multiple
people in it was news clips and

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00:13:02,320 --> 00:13:04,320
stuff like that.
But I get what you're saying

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00:13:04,320 --> 00:13:06,880
with that because it.
Yeah, and that.

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00:13:06,880 --> 00:13:10,120
Can help for sure.
If you can't get used to his

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00:13:10,120 --> 00:13:14,520
voice, you're going to struggle
with this episode and probably

237
00:13:14,520 --> 00:13:17,400
all the episodes I found I was
able to get used to it.

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00:13:17,400 --> 00:13:20,480
But yeah, I get what you're
saying because like I said, at

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first I was like, man, make this
man like speed up or do

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00:13:24,360 --> 00:13:26,120
something.
But yeah, I see what you're

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00:13:26,120 --> 00:13:28,800
saying.
My question about the the build

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00:13:28,800 --> 00:13:31,680
up was, though, was how did you
feel about Nestle being

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00:13:31,680 --> 00:13:34,160
considered one of the most evil
companies in the world,

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00:13:34,480 --> 00:13:37,600
contributing to deaths of
millions of infants?

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00:13:37,600 --> 00:13:42,720
Like that was a dramatic moment
and I believed it was true, but

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00:13:43,280 --> 00:13:45,000
I think it was something that
they needed to show the proof

247
00:13:45,000 --> 00:13:47,400
for after.
But I saw Alex and then BC.

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00:13:47,560 --> 00:13:51,200
I thought it was really.
Interesting how he painted the

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00:13:51,200 --> 00:13:56,080
picture where it wasn't just a
quote UN quote AUS problem.

250
00:13:56,200 --> 00:14:00,520
And you think of Nestle at first
you're like, what do you mean

251
00:14:00,520 --> 00:14:03,640
that they're the worst?
And I like how he builds his

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00:14:03,640 --> 00:14:04,840
case.
I really do.

253
00:14:04,840 --> 00:14:09,000
I like how he builds his case.
It was very calculated, but it

254
00:14:09,000 --> 00:14:11,000
kept it going.
We've heard plenty of times

255
00:14:11,000 --> 00:14:14,880
before different reasons behind
certain product recalls from

256
00:14:14,880 --> 00:14:18,160
certain companies because of
some kind of mishap in the

257
00:14:18,160 --> 00:14:22,280
formulation or, you know,
undisclosed information

258
00:14:22,280 --> 00:14:26,920
regarding what's actually inside
certain products that harm

259
00:14:26,920 --> 00:14:30,360
people or animals.
So I was, I hate to say that I

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00:14:30,360 --> 00:14:35,880
was not inherently questioning
the suggestion, which I suppose

261
00:14:35,880 --> 00:14:41,600
probably speaks to underlying
culture of mega huge corporate

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00:14:41,600 --> 00:14:45,520
entities in in today's world.
There was a moment specifically

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00:14:45,520 --> 00:14:49,800
at 8 1/2 minutes in where I
forget the two individuals that

264
00:14:49,800 --> 00:14:53,240
the host was discussing, but
they stated that the two

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00:14:53,240 --> 00:14:58,240
individuals, the reason why they
use the powder to dilute certain

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00:14:58,240 --> 00:15:02,160
things in the formula that was
harming all these infants in, in

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00:15:02,160 --> 00:15:04,040
China.
They were pressured to do it

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00:15:04,040 --> 00:15:07,480
because they had to meet certain
demands, certain pricing, I

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00:15:07,480 --> 00:15:10,440
think in perhaps original
materials or something like

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00:15:10,440 --> 00:15:14,880
that, which is why they chose to
continue using this deadly

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00:15:15,000 --> 00:15:16,760
ingredient in the formula
product.

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00:15:16,760 --> 00:15:19,160
And I'm like, you know what?
Maybe it's not a crazy

273
00:15:19,160 --> 00:15:21,200
suggestion at all.
Maybe this is a pretty fair

274
00:15:21,200 --> 00:15:24,800
assessment if if that's your
reasoning behind purposefully

275
00:15:24,800 --> 00:15:29,120
continuing to use this
incredibly harmful ingredient in

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00:15:29,240 --> 00:15:33,120
baby formula just to maximize
profits.

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00:15:33,200 --> 00:15:35,480
I hate to say that I wasn't
inherently questioning it.

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00:15:35,480 --> 00:15:38,240
And then to hear that part, I'm
like, Yep, Yep, that that

279
00:15:38,240 --> 00:15:41,400
tracks, unfortunately.
I just want to jump in there

280
00:15:41,400 --> 00:15:45,760
because the thing I will say is
I didn't have an opinion about

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00:15:45,760 --> 00:15:49,000
this going into listening to
this episode, but I thought they

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00:15:49,000 --> 00:15:50,960
did a good job of providing
evidence.

283
00:15:51,440 --> 00:15:54,360
And I'm a skeptic at heart.
So when I hear something, I

284
00:15:54,360 --> 00:15:57,120
always want to hear evidence.
And I felt like they did a

285
00:15:57,120 --> 00:15:59,360
reasonably good job of providing
evidence.

286
00:15:59,360 --> 00:16:02,360
So BCI would go along with what
you said because it wasn't

287
00:16:02,360 --> 00:16:04,040
shocking.
I have to be honest with you, it

288
00:16:04,040 --> 00:16:07,480
wasn't shocking to me, but the
evidence really led me to wow,

289
00:16:07,480 --> 00:16:09,040
like this is really going on
here.

290
00:16:09,520 --> 00:16:11,040
Agree.
So the other thing that this

291
00:16:11,040 --> 00:16:15,400
intro does is it actually makes
us look at it because we had the

292
00:16:15,400 --> 00:16:19,240
previous the, the in China and
then we're listening to the

293
00:16:19,240 --> 00:16:22,720
what's going on with Nestle.
We already are looking at this

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00:16:22,720 --> 00:16:26,840
as not just corporations
behaving badly, but a systemic

295
00:16:26,840 --> 00:16:28,440
problem.
Like there's a problem with the

296
00:16:28,440 --> 00:16:33,120
way that we do things that's
causing these additional

297
00:16:33,120 --> 00:16:35,680
problems.
And because it's a systemic

298
00:16:35,680 --> 00:16:38,760
problem that kind of creates the
binge worthiness of the podcast

299
00:16:38,760 --> 00:16:41,080
because it's bigger than you
think it is.

300
00:16:41,080 --> 00:16:44,320
So it gets people to
automatically want to watch and

301
00:16:44,320 --> 00:16:48,680
listen and see what's happening
and, and what can be done about

302
00:16:48,680 --> 00:16:52,040
it definitely creates that binge
worthiness in that.

303
00:16:52,360 --> 00:16:54,200
And it's all because of the
marketing.

304
00:16:54,800 --> 00:16:58,360
And that made me go, wait, is
that possible?

305
00:16:59,280 --> 00:17:03,480
Which is a creating curiosity,
which is a key element in binge

306
00:17:03,480 --> 00:17:06,200
worthiness as well.
So it's building that curiosity

307
00:17:06,560 --> 00:17:09,119
and it's going to answer that in
a second really.

308
00:17:09,560 --> 00:17:12,680
So we start to see how this is
all due to marketing in this

309
00:17:12,680 --> 00:17:13,640
third.
Clip.

310
00:17:14,079 --> 00:17:16,400
Jonathan Nikki wanted to make a
comment before we go to the

311
00:17:16,400 --> 00:17:18,640
third clip.
Go ahead Nikki, when it comes to

312
00:17:18,640 --> 00:17:22,480
the voice and the nature of the
topic at hand.

313
00:17:22,560 --> 00:17:26,920
When I know for me, when I am
speaking about something that is

314
00:17:26,920 --> 00:17:31,920
serious or may have some level
of incredulity to it, meaning

315
00:17:31,920 --> 00:17:37,240
that people might not believe, I
always speak in a much more

316
00:17:37,240 --> 00:17:41,960
monotone lower register to build
that credibility.

317
00:17:42,240 --> 00:17:47,160
Because as soon as someones
voice starts to get high pitched

318
00:17:47,240 --> 00:17:51,640
or very animated, it's not that
what they're saying is not

319
00:17:51,640 --> 00:17:56,880
necessarily true, but the masses
tend to discredit people like

320
00:17:56,880 --> 00:18:01,320
that very quickly because of the
way that they sound and they

321
00:18:01,320 --> 00:18:04,760
come across they they come
across as alarmist.

322
00:18:04,800 --> 00:18:08,120
I don't know if it's a United
States thing or if it's just a,

323
00:18:08,440 --> 00:18:12,040
a people thing, but whenever
somebody comes across as

324
00:18:12,080 --> 00:18:17,640
alarmist, it's immediately
dismissed as it could be

325
00:18:17,640 --> 00:18:21,760
conspiratorial or or whatever.
But I think that there's some

326
00:18:21,880 --> 00:18:25,840
layers of choice and calculation
in his presentation with his

327
00:18:25,840 --> 00:18:28,720
voice because of speaking about
something like this where people

328
00:18:28,720 --> 00:18:31,640
would have such a hard time
believing it and they would have

329
00:18:31,640 --> 00:18:35,720
such visceral and emotional
reactions to something like

330
00:18:35,720 --> 00:18:36,800
that.
I mean, killing, you know, I

331
00:18:36,800 --> 00:18:40,440
mean that that's that's going to
elicit a lot of emotional

332
00:18:40,440 --> 00:18:43,080
response in people.
And I think that it just helps

333
00:18:43,400 --> 00:18:46,320
to build the credibility and
neutralize some of that to have

334
00:18:46,400 --> 00:18:50,000
have that that voice that
doesn't change its register.

335
00:18:50,000 --> 00:18:52,120
It's not a roller coaster where
it's up and down.

336
00:18:52,280 --> 00:18:54,760
The listener is having that up
and down experience, but the

337
00:18:54,760 --> 00:18:57,480
host stays, you know, somewhat
steady.

338
00:18:58,240 --> 00:19:01,200
And Nikki, I just wanted to go
along with what you said because

339
00:19:01,200 --> 00:19:02,840
in Jonathan, I don't know if
you're going to talk about this

340
00:19:02,840 --> 00:19:06,200
later or not, but it really made
me think, OK, who are these

341
00:19:06,200 --> 00:19:09,320
folks going to get to be
advertisers on their show

342
00:19:09,640 --> 00:19:12,680
because me and they are throwing
some big names under the bus.

343
00:19:12,680 --> 00:19:14,680
And I thought to myself, wow.
And then it would they kind of

344
00:19:14,680 --> 00:19:17,240
answered that later on, but that
was one of the things that might

345
00:19:17,240 --> 00:19:18,880
take away.
But Nikki, I agree with you 100%

346
00:19:18,880 --> 00:19:22,880
on what you just said because
that that that tone just allowed

347
00:19:22,880 --> 00:19:26,120
it to not get sensational.
Yes, the tone allowed the facts

348
00:19:26,120 --> 00:19:29,600
to do the talking, which I think
it was is really important in

349
00:19:29,600 --> 00:19:33,200
this in this episode, so that
you were able to actually listen

350
00:19:33,200 --> 00:19:36,200
to the facts that were there
that they presented and it made

351
00:19:36,320 --> 00:19:38,360
it makes sense.
Go ahead, Janine.

352
00:19:38,520 --> 00:19:42,360
Yeah, the monotonous, it's,
you're mimicking something that

353
00:19:42,360 --> 00:19:46,040
news reporters do all the time.
They report, they might be

354
00:19:46,040 --> 00:19:51,200
reporting the worst news in the
world and they are unaffected by

355
00:19:51,200 --> 00:19:54,160
it.
It shows calm, it shows

356
00:19:54,160 --> 00:19:57,640
confidence in the content and I
think that's what he's doing.

357
00:19:57,880 --> 00:20:00,480
There's been another obsession
worthy podcasts.

358
00:20:00,480 --> 00:20:06,040
I've been listening to the Y
Files and he's not as monotonous

359
00:20:06,040 --> 00:20:09,680
but he's has a very steady voice
as he's reporting these.

360
00:20:10,320 --> 00:20:12,280
Crazy amazing.
Ideas.

361
00:20:12,280 --> 00:20:15,440
Thank you.
In this third clip, we start to

362
00:20:15,440 --> 00:20:18,200
see how the marketing is
actually the cause of the

363
00:20:18,200 --> 00:20:20,440
problem.
So you can hit that third one if

364
00:20:20,440 --> 00:20:24,080
we're ready to go in. 1974, a
British non governmental

365
00:20:24,080 --> 00:20:27,560
organization called the War on
Want published A damning report

366
00:20:27,560 --> 00:20:31,440
titled The Baby Killer.
The report singled out Nestle's

367
00:20:31,440 --> 00:20:34,480
marketing tactics of infant
formula in developing nations

368
00:20:34,480 --> 00:20:38,040
like Asia, Africa and Latin
America as a major contributing

369
00:20:38,040 --> 00:20:40,800
factor in the widespread
malnutrition, illness and death

370
00:20:40,800 --> 00:20:43,240
of infants and poverty stricken
communities.

371
00:20:44,360 --> 00:20:46,720
Although the report contends
that Nestle was not the only

372
00:20:46,720 --> 00:20:49,960
company using these tactics,
they were the largest and most

373
00:20:49,960 --> 00:20:54,680
egregious offender.
Nestle's advertisements for baby

374
00:20:54,680 --> 00:20:58,440
milk in places like Nigeria and
Jamaica and other impoverished

375
00:20:58,440 --> 00:21:01,640
nations insinuated that formula
fed babies would grow up to be

376
00:21:01,640 --> 00:21:04,440
healthier, happier and stronger
than their breast fed

377
00:21:04,440 --> 00:21:07,440
counterparts.
The blatant falsehood.

378
00:21:08,280 --> 00:21:11,160
And unlike breast milk, the milk
formula was not free.

379
00:21:11,920 --> 00:21:15,600
In fact, it was quite expensive
and still is, especially for a

380
00:21:15,600 --> 00:21:18,680
family living on seven U.S.
dollars a week, which is what

381
00:21:18,680 --> 00:21:20,960
the average Jamaican family
earned at the time.

382
00:21:21,840 --> 00:21:24,440
Some families were reportedly
spending half of their entire

383
00:21:24,440 --> 00:21:26,400
incomes on feeding their
newborns.

384
00:21:27,800 --> 00:21:30,960
So many of those families found
a way to save a little money by

385
00:21:30,960 --> 00:21:34,080
making the formula stretch a
little further by diluting it

386
00:21:34,080 --> 00:21:37,480
with water, just like the more
thrifty among us sometimes do

387
00:21:37,480 --> 00:21:39,440
with hand soap or laundry
detergent.

388
00:21:40,440 --> 00:21:43,440
And an article published by the
New York Times, one Jamaican

389
00:21:43,440 --> 00:21:46,120
mother claimed that not only was
she feeding 2 babies with the

390
00:21:46,120 --> 00:21:50,160
contents of 1 canister formula,
she was watering it down so much

391
00:21:50,160 --> 00:21:52,880
that they could provide three
times as many servings then

392
00:21:52,880 --> 00:21:55,840
recommended.
And according to War on Want,

393
00:21:56,120 --> 00:21:59,120
this was a common and widespread
practice in the Third World.

394
00:22:00,520 --> 00:22:03,280
When promoting the product,
Nestle did not consider these

395
00:22:03,280 --> 00:22:05,840
families long term ability to
afford the formula.

396
00:22:06,720 --> 00:22:08,280
That was hard for me.
Actually.

397
00:22:08,280 --> 00:22:10,680
I'm I'm glad I'm not on
Riverside because my face says

398
00:22:10,680 --> 00:22:12,000
it all.
Janae.

399
00:22:12,440 --> 00:22:14,960
Can we, can we like, scream and
be like?

400
00:22:14,960 --> 00:22:18,360
Oh my God, would that.
Like can we, can we be those

401
00:22:18,360 --> 00:22:19,320
people?
Right.

402
00:22:20,840 --> 00:22:23,720
Well, and that's what I thought
this is like when it was coming

403
00:22:23,720 --> 00:22:27,880
together to me that this the way
he was narrating it was so

404
00:22:27,880 --> 00:22:32,280
spectacular because I can
imagine what how I would narrate

405
00:22:32,280 --> 00:22:33,800
this.
I would be screaming.

406
00:22:34,040 --> 00:22:37,600
I would be screaming, yelling
and like, what in the heck is

407
00:22:37,600 --> 00:22:40,240
going on here?
The other thing that it does is

408
00:22:40,320 --> 00:22:44,640
obviously it shows Nestle is,
you know, being pretty evil in

409
00:22:44,640 --> 00:22:47,760
this situation.
So the evil moniker that they

410
00:22:47,760 --> 00:22:53,160
were given earlier is fitting.
And it's just amazing to me to

411
00:22:53,160 --> 00:22:57,480
see how a simple corporate
decision affects the global.

412
00:22:57,560 --> 00:23:00,840
And I think the listener
realizes that it's not just the

413
00:23:00,840 --> 00:23:04,640
product, it's the way that
things are running and the way

414
00:23:04,640 --> 00:23:06,840
that they're allowed to run
that's causing the problem.

415
00:23:06,960 --> 00:23:10,400
I don't know if anybody else has
other than Janae and I responses

416
00:23:10,400 --> 00:23:12,920
to this but.
No, it definitely is outrageous.

417
00:23:12,920 --> 00:23:15,880
I mean, you sit there and you
think about wow, like it's that

418
00:23:15,880 --> 00:23:18,480
pervasive.
It's pretty clear to me that

419
00:23:18,480 --> 00:23:21,520
the, IT was a money decision.
I'm a money guy.

420
00:23:21,520 --> 00:23:24,600
This is a bad money decision.
It attacks you.

421
00:23:24,600 --> 00:23:26,800
Like, wait a second.
I, I just remember thinking to

422
00:23:26,800 --> 00:23:28,360
myself that this is not
possible.

423
00:23:28,880 --> 00:23:32,880
And you know, having two, my
kids are now 24 and 29.

424
00:23:33,120 --> 00:23:36,120
But I thought back to like how I
would have felt if I was one of

425
00:23:36,120 --> 00:23:39,480
the parents who was involved in
this situation where I had a kid

426
00:23:39,480 --> 00:23:42,760
with kidney issues and they
could talk very directly about

427
00:23:42,760 --> 00:23:45,240
the, the effects of this during
the episodes.

428
00:23:45,240 --> 00:23:47,480
I, I encourage everybody, if you
haven't listened to it, go back

429
00:23:47,480 --> 00:23:50,800
and listen to it because it is
definitely a, an obsession

430
00:23:50,800 --> 00:23:55,040
worthy podcast because it really
does paint a picture of

431
00:23:55,040 --> 00:23:59,400
corporate greed at its best.
Yeah, and it was amazing to me

432
00:23:59,480 --> 00:24:02,680
and the the marketing included
falsehoods in it, but it was

433
00:24:02,680 --> 00:24:06,560
also marketed to people who were
illiterate, may not have clean

434
00:24:06,560 --> 00:24:09,720
water, and may not have the
ability to pay for the formula

435
00:24:09,720 --> 00:24:12,080
long term.
Many of the families in third

436
00:24:12,080 --> 00:24:15,880
world countries were spending a
large portion, sometimes 3/4 of

437
00:24:15,880 --> 00:24:20,840
their salary on feeding their
newborns, which leads to the

438
00:24:20,840 --> 00:24:24,040
obvious thing that they're going
to try to make the formula

439
00:24:24,040 --> 00:24:26,640
stretch.
And when they did that, then the

440
00:24:26,640 --> 00:24:29,520
babies weren't getting the right
amount of nutrients, and that's

441
00:24:29,520 --> 00:24:32,440
why they were malnourished, and
that's why many of them died.

442
00:24:33,040 --> 00:24:37,520
And that's just a whole.
When you think through that, how

443
00:24:37,520 --> 00:24:41,520
Nestle didn't realize that would
be a problem is amazing to me.

444
00:24:41,880 --> 00:24:43,400
But it was just about the
profits.

445
00:24:43,840 --> 00:24:46,880
And Jonathan, I want to pivot a
little bit because I agree with

446
00:24:46,880 --> 00:24:50,200
you 100%.
But now let's talk about how

447
00:24:50,200 --> 00:24:54,400
this was effectively used by
this Swindled podcast, because I

448
00:24:54,400 --> 00:24:57,560
think that there's some real key
things in here that I know you

449
00:24:57,560 --> 00:25:00,040
want to talk about.
I want to talk about it, but I

450
00:25:00,040 --> 00:25:03,360
want to talk about it after this
next clip because this next clip

451
00:25:03,360 --> 00:25:05,880
kind of wraps the whole, not the
whole story for us.

452
00:25:06,160 --> 00:25:08,560
But you know, like, we're
shocked by this, right?

453
00:25:08,920 --> 00:25:10,720
And some of us may not think
it's real.

454
00:25:11,480 --> 00:25:15,080
The most may think, OK, this
podcast is overblowing a

455
00:25:15,080 --> 00:25:17,560
situation.
There's no way that this is

456
00:25:17,560 --> 00:25:20,640
real.
So in the next clip we get the

457
00:25:20,640 --> 00:25:22,560
proof, the receipts of this
happening.

458
00:25:22,640 --> 00:25:24,720
I will talk about it.
I just want to get the receipts

459
00:25:24,720 --> 00:25:26,560
so we can kind of draw it in a
full.

460
00:25:27,120 --> 00:25:30,240
Kennedy questioned Nestle
spokesperson Oswald Ballerine

461
00:25:30,440 --> 00:25:33,640
about whether the formula should
be used in places with low rates

462
00:25:33,640 --> 00:25:36,600
of literacy and limited access
to clean water.

463
00:25:37,600 --> 00:25:40,280
The Nestle representative
confirmed that it should not be

464
00:25:40,280 --> 00:25:44,600
used in those locations, but
that ultimately, literacy and

465
00:25:44,600 --> 00:25:47,080
access to clean water weren't
the company's problem nor

466
00:25:47,080 --> 00:25:48,680
concern.
Take a listen.

467
00:25:49,320 --> 00:25:52,440
Would you agree with me that
your product should not be used

468
00:25:52,440 --> 00:25:57,760
where there is impure water?
Yes or no?

469
00:25:59,240 --> 00:26:02,920
We give all the instructions.
Just just answer what would.

470
00:26:02,920 --> 00:26:05,360
You of course not, but we cannot
cope with that.

471
00:26:05,880 --> 00:26:08,480
Do you think that your product
ought to be used in areas where

472
00:26:08,480 --> 00:26:14,520
there's illiteracy, fast
illiteracy, Where there is

473
00:26:14,520 --> 00:26:17,480
illiteracy, people can't?
Read.

474
00:26:18,040 --> 00:26:21,960
But that is very difficult to
control, Senator, because you go

475
00:26:21,960 --> 00:26:25,480
in a region and they are not all
illiterate, they are somewhere.

476
00:26:25,600 --> 00:26:29,080
How can you control that the
product goes to one rather than

477
00:26:29,080 --> 00:26:32,240
to the other?
Well, as I understand what you

478
00:26:32,240 --> 00:26:35,360
say is where there's impure
water it should not be used.

479
00:26:35,960 --> 00:26:38,800
Yes.
Where the people are so poor

480
00:26:38,800 --> 00:26:40,800
that they're not going to
realistically be able to

481
00:26:40,800 --> 00:26:43,240
continue to purchase that, and
which is going to mean that

482
00:26:43,240 --> 00:26:46,640
they're going to dilute it to a
point which is going to endanger

483
00:26:46,640 --> 00:26:48,360
the health that it should not be
used.

484
00:26:48,360 --> 00:26:51,240
Yes, I believe.
Now then, then my final question

485
00:26:51,240 --> 00:26:54,280
is, is what do you do or what do
you feel is your corporate

486
00:26:54,280 --> 00:27:00,160
responsibility to find out the
extent of the the use of your

487
00:27:00,160 --> 00:27:03,160
product in those circumstances
in the developing part of the

488
00:27:03,160 --> 00:27:04,520
world?
Do you feel that you have any

489
00:27:04,520 --> 00:27:06,560
responsibility?
We can't have that

490
00:27:06,560 --> 00:27:09,720
responsibility, Sir, may I make
a reference to?

491
00:27:10,520 --> 00:27:12,040
You can't have that
responsibility.

492
00:27:12,480 --> 00:27:15,280
We get the proof, we get the
receipts, and we hear Senator

493
00:27:15,280 --> 00:27:17,960
Kennedy, who personally had an
impact on my life.

494
00:27:17,960 --> 00:27:20,080
He's actually the senator that
worked on the hates crime bill

495
00:27:20,080 --> 00:27:24,080
with, you know, he questions
very strongly about whether the

496
00:27:24,080 --> 00:27:28,200
formula should be used.
But Nestle and the spokesperson

497
00:27:28,200 --> 00:27:31,080
there refuses to take
responsibility for the misuse of

498
00:27:31,080 --> 00:27:33,560
the product.
They can't have responsibility,

499
00:27:33,560 --> 00:27:37,960
he said.
Which was to me a very powerful

500
00:27:37,960 --> 00:27:42,000
moment.
Like, OK, this is a real claim

501
00:27:42,280 --> 00:27:45,280
as the podcast could have used
sensational claims.

502
00:27:45,720 --> 00:27:49,520
They could have used the
previous prologue to actually

503
00:27:49,520 --> 00:27:54,720
make it feel more dramatic.
Because this was not, this

504
00:27:54,720 --> 00:27:58,160
wasn't necessarily babies dying
that you could identify.

505
00:27:58,160 --> 00:28:00,960
It wasn't a baby that was
parents.

506
00:28:00,960 --> 00:28:05,600
It was babies over the course of
time, but wasn't as specific.

507
00:28:05,600 --> 00:28:08,560
And specificity, oh, that word
was hard.

508
00:28:08,560 --> 00:28:11,800
Today, specificity creates
connection.

509
00:28:12,360 --> 00:28:16,480
So the Nestle story didn't have
as much specificity.

510
00:28:17,320 --> 00:28:21,720
It didn't have as much bang for
your buck as the prologue did.

511
00:28:22,000 --> 00:28:25,520
But because they did use that as
the prologue, it actually lends

512
00:28:25,520 --> 00:28:29,120
itself to this one where we have
the specific baby that was

513
00:28:29,120 --> 00:28:32,920
harmed in our minds when we're
hearing this evidence, This

514
00:28:32,920 --> 00:28:37,000
proof, you know, shows the bad
acts and the lack of caring, but

515
00:28:37,000 --> 00:28:39,360
it also highlights major issues
in the system.

516
00:28:39,760 --> 00:28:42,960
But does anybody have anything
they want to add on that or any

517
00:28:42,960 --> 00:28:45,600
questions?
I would just add this, Jonathan.

518
00:28:45,600 --> 00:28:49,320
I mean, it definitely puts you
in a mindset of, well, this got

519
00:28:49,320 --> 00:28:51,600
to the point of Congress having
discussions about it.

520
00:28:52,200 --> 00:28:55,600
So I think you're right in a lot
of ways, I think this was the

521
00:28:55,600 --> 00:28:58,200
the proof of it.
And I think this was the moment

522
00:28:58,200 --> 00:28:59,960
that I was like, wow, like, OK,
so great.

523
00:28:59,960 --> 00:29:01,800
Now this is at the Congress
level.

524
00:29:01,800 --> 00:29:03,560
So they're going to fix this
problem.

525
00:29:03,560 --> 00:29:05,080
We're never going to hear about
this again.

526
00:29:05,080 --> 00:29:07,920
But I was kind of let down.
I was like, wait a minute.

527
00:29:07,920 --> 00:29:10,480
But did they really fix it?
I'm not sure if you're going to

528
00:29:10,480 --> 00:29:13,000
talk about that, Jonathan, but
it definitely was a check box

529
00:29:13,000 --> 00:29:15,000
for the proof has been
delivered.

530
00:29:15,240 --> 00:29:20,040
And it really made the podcast
land with a pretty heavy FUD, I

531
00:29:20,040 --> 00:29:22,160
thought.
And yes, I am going to talk

532
00:29:22,160 --> 00:29:25,960
about what happens later and
actually what happens even after

533
00:29:25,960 --> 00:29:29,320
this podcast because I did some
research on it and I was

534
00:29:29,320 --> 00:29:34,360
shocked, but we'll get there.
The listeners really like it

535
00:29:34,360 --> 00:29:36,240
with the fact that this isn't a
bogus claim.

536
00:29:36,320 --> 00:29:40,040
And that really sucks.
I mean, it's good for the

537
00:29:40,040 --> 00:29:45,000
podcast because it really does
deliver, but for the world it

538
00:29:45,040 --> 00:29:48,120
kind of sucks though.
That was definitely that.

539
00:29:48,120 --> 00:29:51,200
Now I just wanted to share a
lesson from the proof.

540
00:29:51,320 --> 00:29:55,920
So a creator, anybody, any of us
can have a hot take all day

541
00:29:55,920 --> 00:29:58,480
long, but you have to be able to
support it.

542
00:29:58,800 --> 00:30:01,280
Otherwise, your whole story is
off whack.

543
00:30:02,360 --> 00:30:05,880
So Swindled feels solid because
it's evidence 1st and they're

544
00:30:05,880 --> 00:30:08,040
proving the claims.
And if you actually look at

545
00:30:08,040 --> 00:30:11,600
their show notes, it includes
detailed descriptions and

546
00:30:11,600 --> 00:30:15,440
sources that are framing what's
happening in the episode.

547
00:30:15,960 --> 00:30:19,400
The show notes actually add to
the documentary feel and add to

548
00:30:19,400 --> 00:30:22,080
the evidence first kind of
podcast that they're doing.

549
00:30:22,520 --> 00:30:26,280
And we can all do that with our
podcast in making sure that any

550
00:30:26,280 --> 00:30:29,680
claims that we make, any hot
takes we have, are supported by

551
00:30:29,680 --> 00:30:31,720
evidence.
I agree with you, Jonathan,

552
00:30:31,720 --> 00:30:34,720
because my take away from this
was as I was listening and I'm

553
00:30:34,720 --> 00:30:37,800
thinking, no, this isn't true.
Now, there's no way this is

554
00:30:37,800 --> 00:30:39,600
happening.
No, Nestle's too big of a

555
00:30:39,600 --> 00:30:42,360
company to let this happen.
No, no, this can't be possible.

556
00:30:42,840 --> 00:30:44,800
And they brought the receipts,
man.

557
00:30:44,800 --> 00:30:47,800
And like when they brought the
receipts, the other side of that

558
00:30:47,800 --> 00:30:50,560
is you listen to sometimes stuff
and you're like, yeah, let me

559
00:30:50,560 --> 00:30:52,000
hear some receipts.
It's just somebody

560
00:30:52,000 --> 00:30:54,360
pontificating.
So, Jonathan, I mean, I think

561
00:30:54,360 --> 00:30:58,160
you make a very good point.
And that is evidence first,

562
00:30:58,760 --> 00:31:01,440
because then the, the whole
episode lands because you've

563
00:31:01,440 --> 00:31:04,960
heard the evidence, you, you've
got a visceral reaction, you've

564
00:31:04,960 --> 00:31:07,920
got an emotion built into this
that you.

565
00:31:08,200 --> 00:31:11,080
And that's where, as I think
about it now, I go back to, I

566
00:31:11,080 --> 00:31:13,080
thought the, the front end of
this was a little long.

567
00:31:13,400 --> 00:31:16,720
But looking back at it now, I
think it had to be that long in

568
00:31:16,720 --> 00:31:20,280
order to get me in this mental
place where I would say, you

569
00:31:20,280 --> 00:31:21,880
know what, these things do add
up.

570
00:31:22,440 --> 00:31:26,200
Yeah, that prologue added to the
drama of this section because

571
00:31:26,200 --> 00:31:29,600
again, there wasn't that one
story in this section, it was a

572
00:31:29,600 --> 00:31:32,880
more multiple stories.
So I agree, I think that

573
00:31:32,880 --> 00:31:35,640
prologue, it was long, but it
really had a purpose.

574
00:31:36,680 --> 00:31:40,520
So just before we get to clip
5-1, would think because they

575
00:31:40,520 --> 00:31:44,760
did pass the milk code, it was
passed in 1982, I believe, and

576
00:31:44,760 --> 00:31:49,840
it was a worldwide passage.
And it's 1988, and the practices

577
00:31:49,840 --> 00:31:52,360
of formula milk companies are
still violating that code.

578
00:31:53,000 --> 00:31:55,200
And the boycott was relaunched
in 1988.

579
00:31:55,760 --> 00:32:00,680
But when this episode aired in
2018-2019, it had to be better,

580
00:32:00,680 --> 00:32:02,320
right?
Let's hit that next clip.

581
00:32:03,000 --> 00:32:05,760
By 1988, the boycott was
relaunched when it was

582
00:32:05,760 --> 00:32:08,240
discovered that Nestle and other
formula companies were

583
00:32:08,240 --> 00:32:11,000
continuing to flood health
facilities in the developing

584
00:32:11,000 --> 00:32:13,520
world with free samples and
supplies.

585
00:32:14,640 --> 00:32:17,760
The boycott continues to this
day because the practices that

586
00:32:17,760 --> 00:32:21,920
were globally condemned in 1984
are still as evident as ever.

587
00:32:22,360 --> 00:32:25,360
They're the kind of allegations
formula milk companies have

588
00:32:25,360 --> 00:32:30,000
faced before. 6 companies spend
almost $7 billion a year on

589
00:32:30,000 --> 00:32:32,880
marketing which deliberately
undermines breastfeeding.

590
00:32:33,480 --> 00:32:36,760
About a joint investigation this
week by the Guardian newspaper

591
00:32:36,920 --> 00:32:40,560
and international charity Save
the Children revealed major

592
00:32:40,560 --> 00:32:43,920
players in the industry are
actually violating laws in the

593
00:32:43,920 --> 00:32:47,160
Philippines, offering free trips
to doctors and.

594
00:32:47,160 --> 00:32:51,080
Midwives handing out pamphlets
in hospitals that look like

595
00:32:51,080 --> 00:32:56,600
medical advice In 2018, a report
by the charity Saved the

596
00:32:56,600 --> 00:33:00,280
Children, which was published by
The Guardian, accused formula

597
00:33:00,280 --> 00:33:03,160
companies of, quote,
systematically violating the

598
00:33:03,160 --> 00:33:06,240
milk code.
The report claimed that formula

599
00:33:06,240 --> 00:33:10,080
companies were spending £36 on
marketing for every baby born

600
00:33:10,080 --> 00:33:13,800
worldwide, with one of the main
targets being East Asia.

601
00:33:15,640 --> 00:33:18,360
Save the Children found that in
the Philippines, Nestle and

602
00:33:18,360 --> 00:33:21,520
other companies were still
offering free trips, meals,

603
00:33:21,680 --> 00:33:24,680
movie tickets, and even gambling
chips to doctors and other

604
00:33:24,680 --> 00:33:27,840
health workers in exchange for
product loyalty and

605
00:33:27,840 --> 00:33:31,120
recommendations.
Companies are still running

606
00:33:31,120 --> 00:33:33,320
commercials on television
claiming that has been

607
00:33:33,320 --> 00:33:36,880
clinically proven that formula
fed infants develop higher IQ's.

608
00:33:37,880 --> 00:33:41,240
Every mother wants the best for
their child, so you can hardly

609
00:33:41,240 --> 00:33:44,880
blame them for spending a
reported 75% of their incomes on

610
00:33:44,880 --> 00:33:47,560
a formula that will supposedly
benefit their families in the

611
00:33:47,560 --> 00:33:50,640
long run and potentially lift
them out of poverty.

612
00:33:52,280 --> 00:33:54,680
All of these marketing
techniques are clear violations

613
00:33:54,680 --> 00:33:58,400
of Philippine law, and with the
advent of targeted social media

614
00:33:58,400 --> 00:34:02,240
ads and paid mommy bloggers,
regulating formula industry

615
00:34:02,240 --> 00:34:05,760
marketing is more difficult than
ever, while formula industry

616
00:34:05,760 --> 00:34:08,040
marketing remains more effective
than ever.

617
00:34:08,679 --> 00:34:11,760
It wasn't better in 2018, so is
2026.

618
00:34:11,760 --> 00:34:15,159
First of all I was born in 1980
and I was a formula baby so that

619
00:34:15,159 --> 00:34:17,679
explains a lot about me.
I'm just saying, but I asked

620
00:34:17,679 --> 00:34:22,760
ChatGPT is this is going on
right now in 2026, and the

621
00:34:22,760 --> 00:34:25,800
answer was pretty shocking.
The World Health Organization

622
00:34:25,800 --> 00:34:28,320
and UNICEF are still treating
this as an active problem.

623
00:34:28,440 --> 00:34:31,719
World Health Organization said
Formula companies, digital

624
00:34:31,719 --> 00:34:34,040
marketing has been blatantly
breaching the international code

625
00:34:34,040 --> 00:34:35,920
of marketing of breast milk
substitutes.

626
00:34:36,239 --> 00:34:39,360
And in 2025, the World Health
Assembly adopted a new

627
00:34:39,360 --> 00:34:42,800
resolution specifically aimed at
restricting digital marketing of

628
00:34:42,800 --> 00:34:47,000
breast milk substitutes.
And yes, Nestle is still one of

629
00:34:47,000 --> 00:34:50,320
the main violators in 2025 and
2026.

630
00:34:51,120 --> 00:34:54,679
They're still marketing to
people that can't afford it and

631
00:34:54,679 --> 00:34:58,880
that are watering it down and
it's leading to malnutrition,

632
00:34:59,040 --> 00:35:03,040
nutrition, new nourished babies
in the third world country in

633
00:35:03,080 --> 00:35:07,520
2026.
That was a little shocking for

634
00:35:07,520 --> 00:35:09,120
me.
That's what's going on.

635
00:35:09,200 --> 00:35:11,600
Yeah, Jonathan, I wish I could
tell you that I was, I was

636
00:35:11,600 --> 00:35:15,240
shocked, but I wasn't shocked
because I think, again, they

637
00:35:15,240 --> 00:35:16,520
think you follow the money in
this.

638
00:35:17,080 --> 00:35:21,000
And unfortunately, we live in a
world where the money is what

639
00:35:21,160 --> 00:35:24,280
dictates what happens.
And I hate to say it that way,

640
00:35:24,280 --> 00:35:27,120
but it's a true statement.
Yeah, it was.

641
00:35:27,120 --> 00:35:29,240
Janine's not happy.
I'm not happy.

642
00:35:29,280 --> 00:35:33,440
No, no, sorry.
And it's it's unfortunate,

643
00:35:33,680 --> 00:35:34,880
right?
These companies are already

644
00:35:34,880 --> 00:35:37,280
seeing the results.
So they keep funneling their

645
00:35:37,280 --> 00:35:40,560
money because they are making
money off of it, even though

646
00:35:40,560 --> 00:35:44,000
it's harming hundreds and
thousands of people and kids.

647
00:35:44,320 --> 00:35:46,000
Jonathan, I just wanted to say
one other thing.

648
00:35:46,000 --> 00:35:50,280
So I think that in this
particular episode, it's very

649
00:35:50,280 --> 00:35:54,320
easy to be aggravated.
It's very easy to be angry, and

650
00:35:54,320 --> 00:35:56,120
I think that's a legitimate
place to be.

651
00:35:56,920 --> 00:36:00,760
I think the next step for us in
why it's obsession Worthy is to

652
00:36:00,760 --> 00:36:02,480
understand why this works so
well.

653
00:36:02,960 --> 00:36:05,000
And I'm going to say right now,
personally, it made me want to

654
00:36:05,000 --> 00:36:07,280
go back and listen to other
episodes because I said, man,

655
00:36:07,280 --> 00:36:09,720
they did a really good job.
The monotone voice drove me

656
00:36:09,720 --> 00:36:12,600
crazy like it did for you,
Jonathan and I, you know, I

657
00:36:12,600 --> 00:36:16,040
don't love the ads.
The ads I think weren't great in

658
00:36:16,040 --> 00:36:18,520
what I listened to.
They were kind of awkward.

659
00:36:18,880 --> 00:36:20,920
It sounds like at the end, I
think they're really pitching A

660
00:36:20,920 --> 00:36:23,440
Patreon membership that they
have.

661
00:36:24,120 --> 00:36:26,240
I get it.
And especially if you're going

662
00:36:26,240 --> 00:36:28,360
to be attacking big business,
it's going to be tough to find

663
00:36:28,360 --> 00:36:31,200
ad placements if you're
attacking big business.

664
00:36:31,360 --> 00:36:34,840
But Jonathan, what were do you
think are the main components of

665
00:36:34,840 --> 00:36:38,880
why this worked and how they
really did a fantastic job of

666
00:36:38,880 --> 00:36:42,080
doing such a great show?
A couple things, one is the

667
00:36:42,080 --> 00:36:44,640
listener journey.
You are brought on a journey

668
00:36:44,640 --> 00:36:47,880
from the moment that you start
listening and it starts with

669
00:36:48,000 --> 00:36:50,720
this is awful.
And then you start to question

670
00:36:50,720 --> 00:36:54,120
how could this happen?
Now every time we start to

671
00:36:54,120 --> 00:36:57,480
question something, that makes
us listen to a little bit

672
00:36:57,480 --> 00:37:00,320
further.
So when we question how could

673
00:37:00,320 --> 00:37:03,120
this happen, we're waiting to
live to find out how it

674
00:37:03,120 --> 00:37:06,560
happened.
And then we're given wait, it's

675
00:37:06,560 --> 00:37:09,400
just not one case.
There are multiple cases from

676
00:37:09,400 --> 00:37:12,360
the prologue to whatever it is
that they're discussing.

677
00:37:12,360 --> 00:37:15,800
There is multiple cases.
So you're then drawn in by the

678
00:37:15,800 --> 00:37:19,240
multiple cases and then you want
to know who benefited from this?

679
00:37:19,840 --> 00:37:22,480
In this case, it's Nestle.
And in the end, we're kind of

680
00:37:22,480 --> 00:37:27,120
left with a WTF, especially on
this one, and a realization that

681
00:37:27,120 --> 00:37:30,240
the system that we live in
rewards the wrong things.

682
00:37:31,720 --> 00:37:35,280
It's rewarded for profit, not
the lives of the babies.

683
00:37:36,240 --> 00:37:38,240
And that is infuriating for
some.

684
00:37:38,400 --> 00:37:41,840
It's an emotion and it drags us
through listening to this

685
00:37:41,840 --> 00:37:44,560
podcast.
And when you can connect people

686
00:37:44,560 --> 00:37:48,680
with those emotions, that's
going to be that's going to be a

687
00:37:48,680 --> 00:37:52,440
win for all of us, you know, So
that whole emotional arc, that's

688
00:37:52,440 --> 00:37:55,480
the whole game, you know,
whether it starts with sympathy

689
00:37:55,480 --> 00:38:01,240
or shock or whatever, we feel
that in all the episodes and

690
00:38:01,240 --> 00:38:05,680
then they end with the analysis.
So it's moving from the emotion

691
00:38:05,760 --> 00:38:08,840
to something that we can discuss
in the end, something that we

692
00:38:08,840 --> 00:38:12,920
can have a thought on in the end
and and a rational thought

693
00:38:13,320 --> 00:38:15,840
because it does lead with the
emotion that pulls us in and

694
00:38:15,840 --> 00:38:19,800
drags us along.
But then we get valuable

695
00:38:19,800 --> 00:38:24,320
information that we can discuss
in the end, which brings which

696
00:38:24,320 --> 00:38:27,040
is an obsession worthy type of
format.

697
00:38:27,680 --> 00:38:31,000
And Jonathan, when you also say
that they need to do a good job

698
00:38:31,000 --> 00:38:32,800
of balancing all of those
things.

699
00:38:32,800 --> 00:38:35,960
And I felt like they did a great
job of balancing that because it

700
00:38:35,960 --> 00:38:39,040
could have been all emotion and
I think you would people would

701
00:38:39,040 --> 00:38:41,160
have checked out.
But I thought it was a good

702
00:38:41,160 --> 00:38:43,000
balance of all the different
components.

703
00:38:43,680 --> 00:38:47,600
Yeah, well, and you know,
stories and emotion really bring

704
00:38:47,600 --> 00:38:50,200
people in, but the data is what
sells it.

705
00:38:50,440 --> 00:38:54,040
And when you have that data,
that's what's going to connect.

706
00:38:54,040 --> 00:38:57,040
It doesn't story sell data
tells.

707
00:38:57,080 --> 00:38:59,640
But when you can't connect the
two of them, it really does a

708
00:38:59,640 --> 00:39:03,600
strong job of of yes, this is
here's what happened, here's the

709
00:39:03,600 --> 00:39:05,840
evidence and here's the
emotional connection again.

710
00:39:05,840 --> 00:39:08,280
And here's the evidence.
And they did do a good, really

711
00:39:08,280 --> 00:39:11,920
good job balancing that.
But when I was doing this, I

712
00:39:11,920 --> 00:39:16,200
actually found an interesting
structure that a lot of the

713
00:39:16,200 --> 00:39:18,800
podcasts that we have listened
to follow.

714
00:39:19,040 --> 00:39:22,840
I have a few examples of it.
So blindled structure is they do

715
00:39:22,840 --> 00:39:27,120
the prelude and the main scandal
and then the system reveal

716
00:39:27,600 --> 00:39:29,320
Radiolab.
I'm not sure if you guys

717
00:39:29,320 --> 00:39:31,840
remember Radiolab.
It was the one on Colors.

718
00:39:32,120 --> 00:39:34,560
It does.
It leads its podcast with a

719
00:39:34,560 --> 00:39:38,880
curiosity experiment and then a
scientific story and a

720
00:39:38,880 --> 00:39:43,600
philosophical shift.
Same three kind of parts as

721
00:39:43,600 --> 00:39:48,160
Swindled Strong Exploder does
emotional state to drag you in

722
00:39:48,160 --> 00:39:51,120
right at the beginning and it
talks the creative process and

723
00:39:51,120 --> 00:39:53,080
then it has a meaningful shift
at the end.

724
00:39:53,600 --> 00:39:56,400
And then how I built this, I'm
just using these four as an

725
00:39:56,400 --> 00:40:00,040
example, has a familiar hook and
origin story and then a

726
00:40:00,040 --> 00:40:03,920
transformation lesson.
Now this may not all look the

727
00:40:03,920 --> 00:40:08,560
same, but when it comes down to
it, what it's doing is providing

728
00:40:08,560 --> 00:40:12,120
A doorway, which is the thing
that grabs people and drags them

729
00:40:12,120 --> 00:40:14,720
into your story.
The doorway here was the

730
00:40:14,720 --> 00:40:18,600
prelude.
There's the doorway in Radiolab

731
00:40:19,080 --> 00:40:21,080
was that first story about the
color.

732
00:40:22,000 --> 00:40:25,240
Then they go into the main
story, a pattern, meaning

733
00:40:25,240 --> 00:40:29,040
reveal, so something that's
connecting it, and then a belief

734
00:40:29,040 --> 00:40:32,480
flip.
And that structure is the same

735
00:40:32,480 --> 00:40:34,480
for all of them.
You can match up for all of

736
00:40:34,480 --> 00:40:38,400
them.
The only difference is what they

737
00:40:38,400 --> 00:40:41,600
use as the doorway.
What's the thing that gets you

738
00:40:41,600 --> 00:40:44,720
into the episode?
So there's different doorways,

739
00:40:44,720 --> 00:40:47,960
but it's the same structure.
And that is something that we

740
00:40:47,960 --> 00:40:52,240
can use or our podcast in one
way or another.

741
00:40:52,240 --> 00:40:54,240
Now Swindled use the prelude
Scandal.

742
00:40:54,840 --> 00:40:57,800
Radiolab uses the destabilizing
question, the thing that you

743
00:40:57,800 --> 00:40:59,800
like.
How is this not possibly true?

744
00:41:00,680 --> 00:41:05,040
Song Exploder uses the emotional
stake of that song and How I

745
00:41:05,040 --> 00:41:07,160
Built This uses that familiar
success anchor.

746
00:41:08,480 --> 00:41:11,200
So any of those you could use
for your own podcast?

747
00:41:11,320 --> 00:41:13,840
And Jonathan, I just wanted to,
to, to talk about that for a

748
00:41:13,840 --> 00:41:18,040
second, because if you're
looking for a way to enhance the

749
00:41:18,040 --> 00:41:22,760
structure of your show, what
Jonathan just said is brilliant.

750
00:41:23,080 --> 00:41:26,160
Because if you take you, you see
you, you gave the evidence,

751
00:41:26,160 --> 00:41:28,080
Jonathan, you did exactly what
they did here.

752
00:41:28,400 --> 00:41:31,080
You said, look at the different
ones that we've talked about

753
00:41:31,080 --> 00:41:33,600
week after week.
They all have some common

754
00:41:33,600 --> 00:41:35,600
things.
So if you're a new podcaster, or

755
00:41:35,600 --> 00:41:39,160
if you're a podcaster looking to
kind of kick it up a notch, that

756
00:41:39,160 --> 00:41:41,680
structure is great because you
can go back and look at your

757
00:41:41,680 --> 00:41:45,120
episode plan and say, does it
fit into what Jonathan just

758
00:41:45,120 --> 00:41:47,600
talked about?
Because those things connect

759
00:41:47,600 --> 00:41:48,640
with you.
We've been doing that every

760
00:41:48,640 --> 00:41:51,200
week, this this show today,
connected with people.

761
00:41:51,560 --> 00:41:55,120
If you can replicate that with
your content, I think you're

762
00:41:55,120 --> 00:41:56,520
going to be a step ahead of the
game.

763
00:41:57,200 --> 00:41:59,720
Yeah.
So don't start your episode with

764
00:41:59,760 --> 00:42:02,960
today we're talking about
because that's not going to drag

765
00:42:02,960 --> 00:42:04,200
people in.
They're going to click off.

766
00:42:04,240 --> 00:42:05,560
They don't care what you're
talking about today.

767
00:42:05,920 --> 00:42:07,760
Which is, Jonathan.
Let me just interject something

768
00:42:07,760 --> 00:42:11,080
there because that's interesting
because when you go and look at

769
00:42:11,080 --> 00:42:13,640
YouTube, YouTube kind of does
that.

770
00:42:14,080 --> 00:42:17,000
O this is the difference, I
think, or, or the the difference

771
00:42:17,000 --> 00:42:20,960
between an audio and a video
thing, because in YouTube they

772
00:42:20,960 --> 00:42:24,120
want that quick hook.
But I, I think that you make a

773
00:42:24,120 --> 00:42:27,000
brilliant observation when you
say don't start like that,

774
00:42:27,000 --> 00:42:29,160
because when I hear podcast
start like that, I'm like, oh,

775
00:42:29,160 --> 00:42:31,520
great, this is going to be an
hour long lecture.

776
00:42:31,920 --> 00:42:34,600
I'm not looking for a lecture.
I'm looking to be moved.

777
00:42:34,600 --> 00:42:37,360
I'm looking to be entertained.
I'm looking to be, I'm learning

778
00:42:37,360 --> 00:42:39,160
to learn something.
But when you start off with

779
00:42:39,280 --> 00:42:41,360
here's what you're going to do,
it just seems like a lecture to

780
00:42:41,360 --> 00:42:42,720
me.
Right.

781
00:42:42,800 --> 00:42:44,560
And I think so.
And this is one of the things

782
00:42:44,560 --> 00:42:48,200
that even when we evaluate
podcasts, I find your hook needs

783
00:42:48,200 --> 00:42:50,840
to be something that truly drags
people in.

784
00:42:51,080 --> 00:42:55,160
And with a story that's parallel
to what you're going to be

785
00:42:55,160 --> 00:42:58,400
talking about or a surprising
question or that emotional

786
00:42:58,400 --> 00:43:01,000
stake, like something that is
going to make people feel

787
00:43:01,000 --> 00:43:03,920
something right away.
And that's what's going to get

788
00:43:03,920 --> 00:43:07,160
people to lean in before you
even start your podcast.

789
00:43:07,160 --> 00:43:10,440
And sharing your story today
we're talking about isn't a good

790
00:43:10,440 --> 00:43:13,960
hook.
A better hook is something that

791
00:43:14,840 --> 00:43:17,720
Can you believe that this is the
case?

792
00:43:17,720 --> 00:43:22,440
Can you believe that in 2026
baby formula is still a problem?

793
00:43:23,400 --> 00:43:25,920
That's a way to start your
podcast if you want.

794
00:43:26,120 --> 00:43:29,680
Doesn't have to be this one, but
you know that's something that's

795
00:43:29,680 --> 00:43:32,640
going to grab people's attention
or the story about it or

796
00:43:32,640 --> 00:43:34,680
whatever.
You want to drag them in with

797
00:43:34,680 --> 00:43:37,680
something that means something
to them or is going to get them

798
00:43:37,680 --> 00:43:40,080
to feel something.
And Jonathan, I agree with you

799
00:43:40,120 --> 00:43:42,960
and and I think if you think
about, here's another idea,

800
00:43:42,960 --> 00:43:44,800
Jonathan, I don't know if you're
going to agree with me or not,

801
00:43:44,800 --> 00:43:49,440
but think about the emotion that
you feel before you hit record.

802
00:43:49,760 --> 00:43:52,760
How do you paint that picture
for the person that's going to

803
00:43:52,760 --> 00:43:55,040
listen to get them to react the
same way you did?

804
00:43:55,040 --> 00:43:55,960
I think that's what you're
saying.

805
00:43:55,960 --> 00:43:57,480
Maybe I'm seeing it in a
different way.

806
00:43:57,840 --> 00:43:59,920
Is what are the pain points?
What are the emotions?

807
00:43:59,920 --> 00:44:02,360
What are the feelings?
Because when you get them on

808
00:44:02,360 --> 00:44:04,880
board to that feeling, when
they're feeling that same listen

809
00:44:04,880 --> 00:44:08,200
on on this particular show, man,
if you don't feel that, you

810
00:44:08,200 --> 00:44:09,560
know, you, you're something
wrong.

811
00:44:09,560 --> 00:44:12,640
Like you, you got to feel this.
And I think as you're doing your

812
00:44:12,640 --> 00:44:15,920
content, if you can get that
parallel story like you talked

813
00:44:15,920 --> 00:44:19,400
about some surprising question,
an emotional tie in, I think

814
00:44:19,400 --> 00:44:21,200
it's just going to launch your
episode.

815
00:44:21,360 --> 00:44:24,880
I want to add a little bit to
that in the sense that if you

816
00:44:24,880 --> 00:44:27,120
know your audience and we talked
about this last week, I think

817
00:44:27,520 --> 00:44:30,920
you'll know what's going to get
them, what's going to hook them

818
00:44:31,120 --> 00:44:33,360
and think about creating a
curiosity gap.

819
00:44:33,440 --> 00:44:35,720
And a curiosity gap is the
difference between where they

820
00:44:35,720 --> 00:44:37,920
are and what they need to know
next.

821
00:44:38,520 --> 00:44:42,640
So creating a gap like calling
them out for where they are and

822
00:44:42,640 --> 00:44:46,360
then showing them where they can
be is another great way to start

823
00:44:46,400 --> 00:44:51,120
a podcast because they go, wait,
that's me, what do I have to do

824
00:44:51,120 --> 00:44:53,240
next?
So that's just another way to

825
00:44:53,240 --> 00:44:56,440
kind of format a great start to
a podcast.

826
00:44:56,800 --> 00:44:59,480
I have a few more things great
episodes on stop at tips.

827
00:44:59,480 --> 00:45:02,040
They expose the deeper
mechanism, you know, in

828
00:45:02,040 --> 00:45:05,080
business, branding, coaching,
creators, anything.

829
00:45:05,680 --> 00:45:08,800
You use this storytelling
structure that not only has the

830
00:45:08,800 --> 00:45:12,280
tips but goes deeper than the
tips gives them.

831
00:45:12,960 --> 00:45:16,120
You know, the mechanism behind
it, the reason why something is

832
00:45:16,120 --> 00:45:19,360
happening, the purpose that
behind why you do something.

833
00:45:19,640 --> 00:45:22,600
Going deeper is going to connect
with people.

834
00:45:23,480 --> 00:45:27,920
And then one more.
I think I had quickly, let's

835
00:45:27,920 --> 00:45:30,760
see, maybe not Nope, I'm good.
I think that was the last one.

836
00:45:31,720 --> 00:45:34,560
Jonathan, I just want to say you
did a fantastic job with this

837
00:45:34,560 --> 00:45:37,720
episode because as I was
listening to this, I thought,

838
00:45:37,720 --> 00:45:40,240
man, this could get into a
really interesting discussion

839
00:45:40,240 --> 00:45:42,920
here in the chat.
And I felt like you did a

840
00:45:42,920 --> 00:45:46,480
fantastic job, Jonathan, of
picking out the things that we

841
00:45:46,480 --> 00:45:49,840
could learn from it, the things
that are key takeaways.

842
00:45:50,200 --> 00:45:52,600
And I just want to trumpet what
you did today, my friend.

843
00:45:52,600 --> 00:45:55,640
Great job today.
And like I said at the beginning

844
00:45:55,640 --> 00:45:57,760
or a couple times, Ernest, if
you haven't listened to this

845
00:45:57,760 --> 00:46:01,080
episode, do yourself a favor and
go listen to it.

846
00:46:01,400 --> 00:46:03,480
Not necessarily.
Well, I think because of the

847
00:46:03,480 --> 00:46:07,760
content, yes, but understanding
your own emotional journey

848
00:46:07,760 --> 00:46:10,800
throughout it because if you can
replicate that with your

849
00:46:10,800 --> 00:46:14,320
content, you are going to be
remarkable in your content.

850
00:46:14,320 --> 00:46:16,080
So, Jonathan, I just want to say
great job today.

851
00:46:16,760 --> 00:46:20,320
Well thank you, glad I was able
to deliver some obsession worthy

852
00:46:20,840 --> 00:46:22,720
content at least.
Excellent.

853
00:46:22,720 --> 00:46:24,600
I want to encourage everybody to
join us tomorrow.

854
00:46:24,600 --> 00:46:26,400
We're going to have a very
interesting show tomorrow.

855
00:46:26,400 --> 00:46:28,520
We're going to talk about pre
interviewing.

856
00:46:28,720 --> 00:46:30,400
We're actually going to do some
role-playing.

857
00:46:30,400 --> 00:46:34,280
So don't forget to join us
tomorrow, 7:00 AM And I wish

858
00:46:34,320 --> 00:46:37,200
everybody a great day today.
Thanks for joining us today.