May 10, 2025
Ep136: Recession-Proof Your B2B Business | Experts Melissa Armstrong, Peter Giordano III, & Jac White
Send us a text The economic warning signs are everywhere, and if your accountant is anything like mine, they're already hitting the panic button. But before you slash your prices or cut your marketing budget, take a deep breath. This episode brings together a powerhouse panel of experts to help you not just survive but potentially thrive during economic uncertainty. What if I told you that recessions actually make millionaires? It sounds counterintuitive, but when everyone else retreats, tho...
The economic warning signs are everywhere, and if your accountant is anything like mine, they're already hitting the panic button. But before you slash your prices or cut your marketing budget, take a deep breath. This episode brings together a powerhouse panel of experts to help you not just survive but potentially thrive during economic uncertainty.
What if I told you that recessions actually make millionaires? It sounds counterintuitive, but when everyone else retreats, those who strategically advance can capture significant market share. Our panel dives into why discounting is the wrong move when your costs are increasing, and why marketing is the absolute last thing you should cut (spoiler: cutting marketing creates a 90-day countdown to pipeline drought).
We explore practical strategies for improving cash flow management, including shifting from monthly to weekly financial analysis, optimizing payment terms, and conducting strategic audits of your offers to identify what truly generates profit. You'll learn how to repackage your services into more digestible pieces without sacrificing value, and why this might be the perfect moment to actually raise prices by enhancing perceived value.
Perhaps most valuable is our discussion on maintaining strong customer relationships during uncertainty. Being the "steady hand" that guides clients through turbulent times isn't just good service—it's a competitive advantage that builds lasting loyalty and referrals.
Whether you're feeling the economic pinch already or preparing for what might come, these actionable strategies will help you build a more recession-resistant business. Subscribe now and join the Tiny Marketing community where we're helping B2B service providers do more with less—because sometimes the smallest, most focused actions create the biggest results.
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01:34 - Introduction to Tiny Marketing
01:57 - Biggest Recession Mistakes
07:10 - Where to Double Down vs Cut Back
18:46 - Balancing Pricing and Flexibility
24:27 - Cash Flow Management Strategies
27:32 - Customer Experience as Competitive Advantage
33:22 - Repackaging Offers for Current Economy
40:50 - Improving Cash Flow Right Now
51:58 - Keeping Sales Moving Forward
56:16 - Long-Term Strategic Moves
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Welcome to Tiny Marketing.
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This is Sarah Norblach, and this is a podcast that helps B2B service businesses do more with less.
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Learn lean, actionable, organic marketing strategies you can implement today.
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Hit that subscribe button and start growing your business with tiny marketing.
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Well, thank you guys for joining me today.
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Today we are talking about how to recession-proof your business, because we all see the news and hear.
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Actually, my own accountant was freaking out and I was like it's okay, chill, so let's get into it.
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First, I want to get into high level.
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What are the biggest mistakes that you see businesses making when the economy takes a downturn?
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Let's start with Melissa.
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Let's talk finance first.
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Yeah.
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So what I hear a lot is I'm going to lower my prices so that I don't lose clients or I can get repeat or recurring business, in which, to me, it's mind blowing because at a time when your costs are going up, you need to increase your fees to reflect that, so that you can keep being sustainable.
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Right, you don't want to shoot yourself in the foot so that you can keep being sustainable.
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Right, you don't want to shoot yourself in the foot.
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So for me, I would say that's the biggest one that I am seeing right now.
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Let's go straight to Peter and get your thoughts on that.
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Well, yeah, I think this panicking ends up being what moves first, right, and pricing is an easy lever to do this right.
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It also ends up being like a representation of us, right and pricing is an easy lever to do this right.
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It also ends up being like a representation of us, right.
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This pricing is particularly how close we are to being the price setter or the delivery of services.
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I see this too.
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I see a panicking and I see the need to discount or I see the desire to move in a way that helps try to secure business.
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So panicking and pricing is the number one mistake that I see as well, the discount aspect makes me want to go straight to Jack.
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So what is the biggest thing that you're seeing people doing right now?
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And I'm guessing discount is going to be among them.
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Discounting is huge and also fear when there's any kind of like uncertainty or downturn in the economy.
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Like we're human beings, even though we're business owners and we're trying to project, you know, a certain level of confidence.
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We're human beings and we get nervous and afraid as well, and that's what I hear everybody saying.
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And there's like things that you can control and there's things that you can't control.
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And the things that you can't control are tariffs and like a recession, whether that happens or not.
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The things that you can control are your prices, the level of activity you're doing in your business and the type of activity you're doing in your business to try to continue to keep like your sales momentum going.
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And one of the things I see people do is definitely discount.
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But I also see people really spend a lot of time and energy trying to like being worried about the things that they can't control, which is just humanity.
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But if you can kind of try to like put up as much of a shield as you can to that and really focus on the things that you can control, like your sales activities, running your business the way you know how to run it you'll see the sales momentum continue to go.
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But it's a scary time, it's natural to sort of freeze up a little bit.
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Let yourself take that moment and then take a deep breath and keep moving forward.
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Yeah, I'm going to jump off from that, because the thing that I see most often is people shutting down their marketing in.
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Is people shutting down their marketing Right, not investing?
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Yeah, this isn't a profit center when it's what drives those sales conversations and without it, you're extending your sales process.
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Yeah, it will take 18 months possibly for you to close a B2B sale when you don't have marketing and they don't realize who you are or the value that you have, and it's the first thing that shut down I've seen with, like the past 20 years.
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It's the first thing that that business has shut down.
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Yeah, I've seen that too, and even when not even small companies like ours, but big companies whenever there's a downturn, marketing or content marketing is always like the first departments that get budgets cut and layoffs, and I think it's like just such a foolish mistake as well.
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Yeah, it's short-sighted.
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I have said this a million times, but I've always seen like a 90-day turnaround.
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If you shut off your marketing within 90 days turnaround.
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If you shut off your marketing within 90 days, your sales pipeline usually shuts off too and you're creating your own downturn by doing that.
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The next thing I want to get into is in this tighter economy, where should businesses double down and where should they cut back?
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Should they cut back?
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So let's talk double down first and then ease into the cutback.
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So, jack, let's start with you.
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Yeah, this is when I think doing reviews on your business and understanding, like, what's working and what are the core pieces of your business that drive revenue and drive profit in your business is really important, because when there are downturns or when things do feel uncertain, the best thing I think you can do is double down on the things that are working.
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So, if you know that certain marketing right to your point, sarah certain marketing vehicles or activities, yes, maybe cost money, but that is what ultimately brings leads into your pipeline that you are able to convert I would absolutely not be cutting those things.
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I would be like holding tightly to that budget and making sure that you do it.
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Sales activities in general you mentioned 90 days to build a sales pipeline.
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Yeah, not pumping the brakes on any of the sales activities or marketing activities that lead into sales, I would not do.
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I would continue to do all of that stuff because we're not naive to think that everything is going to be the same.
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It may be harder to close deals or to bring that revenue in, so the last thing you want to do is take the foot off the gas on the things that drive that revenue.
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Yeah, I think I just want to highlight the audit.
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We just talked about this, melissa, in the minimum viable tech stack workshop that I did.
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You want to do an audit and see where your leads are coming from, where your referral partners are coming from, and double down on those elements, the ones that you know are driving sales.
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That everyone needs to keep in mind is that when everyone else is shutting down their marketing, if you don't, you're going to stand out even more.
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We have heard a million times that recessions make millionaires and it's because of this, because other people are retreating and the smart people are doubling down instead.
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So, melissa, peter, do you guys have anything else that you want to talk about in terms of doubling down?
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Because, melissa, I really do.
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You guys have anything else that you want to talk about in terms of doubling down?
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Because, melissa, I really want to hear about your cutting.
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Yeah, before we get into the cutting then I'll go and follow Jack then.
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So that way it's a stream.
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I look at pricing right.
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Look, perceived value gets totally recalibrated and we know that price is perceived value right.
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And so, even though we want to discount or we want to reduce that price, I actually have a little bit of a differing opinion, which is this might be a moment to actually look at your business and see where you can raise the price or where you can improve certain areas.
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Because this is how I look at it If you want to raise prices, there's only really three levers, because you cannot raise prices directly and just be done.
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You have to kind of raise the things around it for price to actually be impacted so you can really improve the outcomes in which you provide.
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Typically, that's like value, like people will think about the word value, but I really want to stress like find ways in which you can improve value to your existing clientele.
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Go to them and say what's working, like what's working for you, and if it's hey, you're really I really appreciate how fast you are, then go faster.
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Like look for those things that are actually working, Double down with existing clients and finding ways.
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So it's like.
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So don't just automatically discount in that sense.
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So find ways to improve the outcomes.
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The other is right is change the perception right.
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How we've just recalibrated prices.
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Find ways in which you can recalibrate the perception back.
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Is it?
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Are you investing in your replacement value or are you improving those outcomes, like I said the first time around?
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But the third one I actually want to talk about is changing your buyer.
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Now, like you might hear that and say like total new ICP, but in reality we are always moving up market in a sense, whether we're improving our buyer or improving our market or improving the stakes, higher stakes this might be an opportunity to find a newer version of a buyer, because if the buyer themselves might be looking down market, you might be able to capture a little bit of that nuance when you move up market, because they're taking a risk and you might be taking a risk and if you have a long-term view on your business, this might be a way in which you can start to reposition your business from a pricing perspective to a new level and to a new standard.
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I feel like I get smarter every time I have a conversation with Peter.
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Jack was in the pricing watch part.
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Thank you.
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Jack Melissa.
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What are your thoughts?
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I was having a conversation with a client recently and we were talking about how there were some positions his team was looking to fill, and one position that came up was community outreach, so part of business development, and he said that is one that we definitely cannot fill right now.
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He walked me through the other ones and then I said, okay, let's revisit that conversation because your team has identified that there is an opportunity or a need for business development and maybe your financials can't justify hiring a new person to go out there into the community and everything that entails tails.
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But what about rethinking this strategy?
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So what can you do differently to leverage the resources that you already have and you're not adding additional costs?
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Right, like my entire marketing is based on social media.
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You know this, and that is very low cost, and so I think at this time is thinking about what you can cost.
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So don't travel, you don't need to go to a conference where you need to pay for a hotel and meals and flights and all of that.
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Maybe find something that your team can do remotely so that you can keep them certified, educated and all of that good stuff, and it still like keeps the morale up, but it probably slashes that cost in half, and then be intentional about the other areas where you need to double down.
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I think I am the perfect example.
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I started zero clients, a very limited budget of money that I was putting in.
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The thing that I invested in was marketing, because I needed to accelerate that timeline, because I did not have a 12-month runway to figure this out.
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I needed to shorten that.
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I think the same principle applies here.
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You have to get scrappy, you have to get intentional, um, and if you want cut, maybe look at the efficiency of your current operations.
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So it's like at home we have a subscription to netflix and peacock and math and all of these streaming platforms, but you know there's one or two that you rarely log into, but you're still paying for them, right?
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Because whatever, it's $11 a month, it's $12 a month, so you keep paying for it.
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Well, now it's a time to look into your internal resources and the things where you're spending money that you really shouldn't be because you don't meet them.
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And how can you reconfigure your teams to make them work smarter, not harder, and focus on the things that are moving the needle and not just doing work, because you know, not just not to stay busy is what I mean.
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Yeah, it really comes down to auditing your offers, seeing what's making you the most profit and cutting the things that don't matter so you're not spending money on tools or whatever that you might've needed to be able to execute that offer before.
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Yeah, I do that a lot.
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I am constantly going through and like does this even make sense?
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Nobody cares that much about this Cut.
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I'm a big fan of cutting.
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Yeah, there's a.
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I'm going to just kind of go on top of that, which is sometimes it's good to do spring cleaning right Of your business, right.
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This is a forced spring cleaning in a sense right, and so what?
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one other way in which you can go about doing this is I don't know if it's a mindset shift, but ask yourself the questions like what do I wish would have already been done for me in this moment?
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Right, so that you can basically build durability in your architecture.
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Like moving forward, Because in reality, like some businesses will fail, right, Some will succeed in a sense.
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And it's like what are the things that you need to do in order to sustain here, so that you can succeed in the future and succeed the next time that this comes around?
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Because we know that this is a market right, these are cycles.
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This isn't a surprise to anyone.
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Yeah, I'm glad that you said that.
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I have said that many times where I'm like we've seen this story.
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We have had cycles like this before and it always works out fine.
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The world has not ended.
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That leads into the next one.
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So how do you balance holding your price point versus offering discounts or flexible terms when your clients are coming to you and saying they can't afford you anymore, or your prospects are coming to you and saying, well, that's out of my range right now?
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I feel like I have to say something first, which is, while I've started a lot of this conversation about being a little bit more aggressive, like, in a sense, I don't hold the line is also don't be reckless.
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Like I understand that there are times where you do have to make moves, if they are strategic in the short term in order to sustain, to continue for the long term.
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And so when it comes to pricing, and one of these things is there are other factors like terms or methods, or you can change the relationship.
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For example is I'm not going to say this is what you should do, but if there is a way in which you can change the compensation format from just say hourly to performance pay, right, it's like you bet on yourself to basically say well, instead of you seeing me as a cost, here's a way in which you could see me as an investment and if we hit this number, then you have enough cashflow to support me and I will.
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I will basically bet on myself.
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I'm not saying to do that, but that is one method in which you can get a little bit more creative with your finance or creative with your pricing structures in a time that does demand a little bit of change, more of consider it adaptive pricing being able to price the same service multiple different ways, depending upon the market or depending on the outcome.
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So that is a little bit.
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One way that you could go about it is to find a little bit more of a creative approach could go about it is to find a little bit more of a creative approach.
00:16:36.298 --> 00:16:37.642
Yeah, I want to jump on that train of thought.
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I'm working with a client right now who's nervous about this.
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So what we did is we broke down her offer into milestones, so that someone just had to say yes to one milestone and then they say yes to the next milestone and that makes it more affordable and they're getting a little win before they move on to the next one.
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So they get the complete offer once they go through each of those milestones, but it's more biteable.
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It's easier to say yes to that.
00:17:07.208 --> 00:17:10.077
Jeff, what's yours?
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Yeah, I also think in times like this, finding out what your prospect really values out of what you do and pumping that up a bit.
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So, instead of jumping to discounting the price, try to bump up the value that they get.
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So that might be a little extra time with you or a digital download or something that, yes, may eat into your profit margin.
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It's potentially something you would have sold, or it's still like trading time for money.
00:17:46.457 --> 00:18:15.829
But I think in times like these to Peter's point, like getting creative about kind of how you package and sell, and sometimes you need to just offer a little bit more to help people get over the hump when it feels really scary and I am not a fan of discounting in general there are times, if I'm launching something new, that I'll give like a special price to people who you know join early and give me feedback.
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Yeah, exactly, but in general I'm not a fan of discounting, but I will give more if that's what somebody needs to get them over the hump within a range.
00:18:26.203 --> 00:18:33.664
Right, I'm not going to like give them everything, and so that's something that you can do and you can control.
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So, if you know, I have a group membership program if one-on-one time is really important to someone, I can throw in a one-on-one session to get them to join the membership the sales circle.
00:18:48.226 --> 00:18:59.825
If you know something else is really important to them, I can throw in like a little customization of that in order to get them there without discounting the price.
00:18:59.825 --> 00:19:03.586
So think of all of the assets that you have at your disposal.
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Yourself, being an asset, understand what your prospect is really valuing.
00:19:09.625 --> 00:19:13.201
If you have a great sales process, that should be really clear to you.
00:19:13.201 --> 00:19:19.497
And then you have a bunch of levers that you can kind of push and pull to get them where they need to be, to say yes.
00:19:20.018 --> 00:19:22.001
Yeah, that is a really good point.
00:19:22.001 --> 00:19:41.223
So, like, if you have a gateway offer, a bridge offer, something like that, then you fully understand what is important to them, where they're stuck and what they need to get over it, and that allows you to pick really strategic bonuses to be able to convert them if they're like right on the edge, like oh no.
00:19:41.223 --> 00:19:45.763
Yeah, melissa, my next question is specifically for you.
00:19:45.763 --> 00:19:47.721
But do you have anything you wanted to add to this one?
00:19:47.721 --> 00:19:48.664
I do.
00:19:48.914 --> 00:19:52.115
I think this is a good time to think about being flexible.
00:19:52.115 --> 00:19:56.501
So don't flash your prices, don't do a discount.
00:19:56.501 --> 00:20:06.324
Add some value, break it down into a more digestible piece of the offer and then be flexible on your payment terms.
00:20:06.324 --> 00:20:08.335
By no means so.
00:20:08.335 --> 00:20:09.940
For example, my clients.
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They pay at the beginning of the month.
00:20:11.665 --> 00:20:13.580
It's on auto pay.
00:20:13.580 --> 00:20:16.459
That's a non-negotiable for me.
00:20:16.480 --> 00:20:40.048
But, for example, some people will not accept credit card payments because they don't want to incur the fees, and I think they're missing out on that, because that gives the opportunity to the buyer to float their cash and still be able to hire you for your service that they need, and so they get the opportunity to finance it.
00:20:40.048 --> 00:20:42.336
But you're not doing the financing for them.
00:20:42.336 --> 00:20:55.067
And if you're smart about the pricing, you can add a cushion there so that you're still getting paid the amount that you wanted to get paid originally, but you're covering those potential fees.
00:20:55.067 --> 00:21:03.249
Or you can be transparent about it and add those fees on top to the invoice and let the person decide.
00:21:03.249 --> 00:21:09.928
And what I have found is that a lot of people will say, yeah, just set it on auto pay.
00:21:09.928 --> 00:21:20.761
Here's my credit card number, I'll pay the fee because it's convenient or because I get miles, I can just set it up and not have to think about it, or because they need the cash.
00:21:21.835 --> 00:21:30.784
Yeah, that's a good point and, like Dubsado Squarespace, a lot of different companies have that buy now, pay later option.
00:21:30.784 --> 00:21:38.185
That is available now, where you're still getting that lump sum, but they can pay over time if you're doing project-based, for example.
00:21:38.185 --> 00:21:47.938
Okay, so my finance question when revenue is unpredictable, what key metrics should business owners really be looking at?
00:21:48.900 --> 00:21:54.289
So this is a time for people to really hone in their cash flow management.
00:21:54.289 --> 00:22:01.509
So in times of abundance, you're probably looking at your cash flow month over month.
00:22:01.509 --> 00:22:07.685
You know, do I have enough money to cover payroll, if that's something that you have to pay my bills and whatnot?
00:22:07.685 --> 00:22:15.461
I am seeing more and more my clients asking me to look at their cash flow weekly, and that is a smart thing to do.
00:22:15.461 --> 00:22:27.425
You want to make sure that you're being smart and you want to collect up front on the first of the month, but whenever possible, you want to pay on the very, very last day.
00:22:27.425 --> 00:22:30.042
You have to pay right.
00:22:30.042 --> 00:22:31.678
It just, it is what it is.
00:22:31.759 --> 00:22:39.066
And so for small businesses like ours, there probably won't be a lot of those bills where you can delay the payment.
00:22:39.066 --> 00:22:48.640
Right, because we're usually the type of providers that will spend an invoice and some people will have, you know, net seven, net 30, net 15, whatever.
00:22:48.640 --> 00:22:55.570
But if you do have those, push it to that net 30 or net 15 or net 7.
00:22:55.570 --> 00:23:03.788
For bigger clients that I sometimes work with, it can come to a point where you have to decide we're paying everybody net 30.
00:23:03.788 --> 00:23:15.125
It doesn't matter what the due date is, because we need to prioritize our payroll, we need to prioritize our fractional advisors and things like that.
00:23:15.125 --> 00:23:35.851
But looking at that and going through that exercise week over week is going to help you pivot in a timely manner, rather than waiting an entire month and see that your runway is now 30 days instead of 40 or 50 that you had, you know, 30 days ago.
00:23:36.954 --> 00:23:42.939
Yeah, that is a really good point and all of my bigger clients they do exactly that.
00:23:42.939 --> 00:23:45.405
Doesn't matter when the due date is, they're going to pay when they pay.
00:23:46.215 --> 00:23:46.395
Right.
00:23:48.097 --> 00:23:58.450
Okay, so let's talk about customer experience, and this is probably going to be looking at all of your experience as service providers.
00:23:58.450 --> 00:24:07.586
More than anything, we don't have a customer experience expert here today, but how does it affect your role during a downturn?
00:24:07.586 --> 00:24:13.587
So how can businesses use customer experience as a competitive advantage?
00:24:13.587 --> 00:24:17.896
Anybody have any thoughts on that?
00:24:17.916 --> 00:24:19.961
Steady hand, steady hand.
00:24:19.961 --> 00:24:21.104
That's what works for me.
00:24:21.104 --> 00:24:28.912
No, seriously, it's creating a space in moments like this where you're holding it together for your client.
00:24:28.912 --> 00:24:37.362
You're going through some of these anxieties and questions and we're all living in the same world, we hope.
00:24:37.362 --> 00:24:43.548
But as a professional, as a consultant, you have to be in there with them.
00:24:43.548 --> 00:24:46.791
You have to be thinking critically the entire time.
00:24:49.816 --> 00:24:50.838
I'm not just reconciling their bank accounts.
00:24:50.838 --> 00:24:57.818
I need to wear my consultant hat every single day and treat this as if it were my business, my problem.
00:24:57.818 --> 00:25:01.566
I'm in it with them With numbers.
00:25:01.566 --> 00:25:02.728
I can provide that.
00:25:02.728 --> 00:25:05.419
So, hey, here's the reality, right?
00:25:05.419 --> 00:25:11.094
Often it's like the budget oh my God, we're so under budget.
00:25:11.094 --> 00:25:12.338
Okay, let's understand why.
00:25:12.338 --> 00:25:13.824
Let's look at these numbers.
00:25:13.824 --> 00:25:20.788
Well, yeah, you were overly ambitious and optimistic a year ago when you set up this budget.
00:25:20.788 --> 00:25:27.747
Of course, it's going to look abysmal now, but if you look at the numbers this other way, maybe your sales are going up.
00:25:27.747 --> 00:25:38.528
You know you have more customers now, and so it's just having that critical mindset and like, again, keeping a steady hand to walk them through it.
00:25:39.815 --> 00:25:44.247
Yeah, I think that being a service provider also means a little bit being a business therapist.
00:25:44.247 --> 00:25:49.984
You have to help people a lot with their anxieties around their business.
00:25:49.984 --> 00:25:51.207
It's super personal.
00:25:51.969 --> 00:25:58.082
Yeah, yeah, and I think acknowledging the moment that we're in goes a long way to both of your points.
00:25:58.221 --> 00:26:18.000
It's like actually saying like I know it feels crazy right now, I know it feels out of control, but this is what we do, and having a good customer experience, user experience, onboarding, offboarding all of that is important, no matter what is going on in the economy.
00:26:18.000 --> 00:26:36.939
Just to let you know like that will make or break whether your clients stay with you, refer you, you know, sign on and that starts at the very early times of the sales process, or even, like the marketing process, that customer experience it's not once they sign the contract.
00:26:36.939 --> 00:26:46.244
And so you know, now is maybe a good time if you haven't looked at your user flow and the experience to go in.
00:26:46.244 --> 00:26:48.288
We've talked about some really high touch.
00:26:48.288 --> 00:26:52.724
You know one-on-one ways to like create a good user experience.
00:26:52.724 --> 00:27:06.720
But in general, now is a good time to look at your user experience and your onboarding flow and all of that and make sure that it's relevant and make sure that it's the experience you would want to have if you're, you know, working with somebody else.
00:27:07.382 --> 00:27:21.671
Yeah, that's a good point, Just like and helping them feel seen, yes, listening, acknowledging and solving the problem at hand, rather than feeling like this is what everybody gets.
00:27:21.671 --> 00:27:25.663
Peter, do you have anything you want to add?
00:27:26.696 --> 00:27:27.800
We're all in the experience game.
00:27:27.800 --> 00:27:36.435
Part of services, part of what you're buying, is also an experience and I can't forget that.
00:27:36.435 --> 00:27:51.961
And and here's the here's the thing is, I might go a little bit and say there's a difference between so steady hand, like most of those, those perfect, perfect insert, right there I have to um, there's a difference between being nice and being kind.
00:27:51.961 --> 00:28:06.064
While it's always wonderful to both be nice and be kind, sometimes you need an advisor who's going to be kind to you and being kind might not be the nice thing to do, but it might be the honest thing.
00:28:06.865 --> 00:28:21.800
And I really think that service providers, whether they're business therapists or advisors, in a sense is they are the individual who's outside the jar, right, all of you have heard my favorite saying, as of recently it's hard to read a label from inside the jar.
00:28:22.583 --> 00:28:36.863
And now they're really inside the jar right now, right, because now everything seems to be a little bit of an emergency and everybody's got their guard up and all these things are just shining lights on cracks and crevices, right, and you don't want that crack to become a canyon incense.
00:28:36.863 --> 00:28:51.720
And so when I go with this whole nice and being kind is like if you are outside the jar and part of your duty and part of your belief and part of your principles is like you want to help people in their experience but you also want to help that business go.
00:28:51.720 --> 00:29:01.342
Be kind, like tell them, be honest, be true, be an advisor, and that's going to allow them to sustain and allow them to either improve their experience or improve their business.
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