526. Are You Growing Your Podcast or Just Staying Busy?

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Marc Ronick: Good morning,

podcasters.

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Today is Thursday, may 28 2026
and today we're
asking the

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uncomfortable podcasting
question: Are
creators focused

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on the right growth strategies,
or just
staying busy with more

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tools, more clips, and more
content, so
if you're

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listening live on Clubhouse, hit
the share button,
top

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00:00:27,611 --> 00:00:31,813
right-hand side of the screen,
and share it however
Clubhouse

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00:00:31,813 --> 00:00:36,710
lets you, and if you're catching
us via podcast,
YouTube, etc.

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00:00:36,710 --> 00:00:41,186
please share this episode with a
fellow podcaster,
and now give

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00:00:41,186 --> 00:00:45,065
us about 30 seconds, and we'll
get things
rolling.

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Thanks for being here.
The podcasting morning show is


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powered by Ironick Media,
helping podcasters launch,


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polish, and grow great shows,
and by Content Creators


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Accountant, helping creators
build real business behind their

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content.
Good morning again, podcasting

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00:01:04,013 --> 00:01:07,077
morning show.
Thank
you so much for being

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here.
I am your host, Mark Ronick, and

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currently on the virtual stage
with me, my co-hosts, we have


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D.R.
Fay, Ralph Estep, Matt Bliss,

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Sid Meadows, and BC
Babbles.
We also have on stage from the

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00:01:21,849 --> 00:01:25,351
audience Dan and Tide,
Tide
aka Knikki, on stage.

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Thank you, guys, for joining us
already.

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And good morning to those of you
who've already
joined us live

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on the video, live on Clubhouse.
Gabe,
Jessica, Tim, Rich,

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thank you for being here.
Spent some time
with Rich

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yesterday afternoon doing
Empowered Podcasting Live
on

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all the video streams, and that
was a great time.

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BC
Babbles joined us as well.
If you want to check that out,

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by
the way, you can go to
Podcasting Morning show.com/epc

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Live.
We have the latest edition with

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00:02:00,147 --> 00:02:04,416
BC posted there, so you can

just go right to that page and

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hit play.
And also, before we
dig into

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the main content of today's
show, this rss.com
article, I

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wanted to share with you
something I've shared


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yesterday as well.
Sometimes it's hard to know

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what's
actually working in
your podcast when you're the

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only one really
creating it
every week, or at least maybe

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you're the point
person.
Sorry, my voice is crazy this

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morning.
Ralph already
called me out on

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it before he got started.
So, anyway, this is
why we

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created our podcast evaluation
series.

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If you want
honest and
constructive feedback about your

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show, all you got to
do is
submit your podcast at

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00:02:48,127 --> 00:02:51,143
Podcasting Morning show.com/eval

e v a l.

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We'll review your application,
listen to your
podcast, and if

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selected, our team will discuss
what's
working, what could be

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stronger, and what other
podcasters can
learn from your

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show.
Again, that's Podcasting Morning

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00:03:06,836 --> 00:03:11,358

show.com/eval It's 100% free
to participate, so submit your


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podcast today, and let's dive
right in, so this, like I said,

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and we'll get into this
article, but podcasters are

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doing a lot
right now, and
they're publishing consistently,

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they're
experimenting with
video a lot more these days,

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using AI,
building tools, and
promoting, I should say, buying

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tools and
promoting on social
media, they're trying to grow,

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they're
trying to monetize,
improve their workflow, keep up

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with
everything that's
changing around them, and we

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know even
just from
yesterday's show, covering all

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the news, how much
things are
changing, and yet, according to

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this rss.com
article, or
actually, it's a survey, it's

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called the
Podcaster Insights
Survey.

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Audience growth is still the

biggest challenge.

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So, that brings us to today's
big
question: Are podcasters

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doing too much?
rss.com surveyed 195


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podcasters in quarter two of
this year, and a few things


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stood out.
I'll give you some, some ideas

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here of where we're
going with
this, and then we'll break some

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of these down as we
go today.
62% of current podcasters

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publish weekly or
more. 46% of
those surveyed say growing an

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audience is their
main
podcasting goal right now. 70%

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of them say that growing
their
audience is one of their biggest

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challenges. 51% record
video
in some way, shape, or form.

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And among the podcasters
who
publish video, 63% say video has

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helped grow their show. 56%

are using or experimenting with.

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Those AI tools, 39% are

currently monetizing their

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podcast, and 72% say they're

currently paying for tools or

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services related to that or

their podcast.

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So, this is what makes the
article interesting to
me.

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Podcasters aren't sitting around
doing nothing, clearly
they're

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showing up, they're publishing,
they're
experimenting, they're

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investing the time and energy
and money
into their shows,

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but even with all of that
activity, growth
still seems

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to be that big struggle.
So we need to ask
questions,

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maybe we'll get to some of these
today.

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Are these
efforts actually
helping us grow?

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Are they helping us make

better content?

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Are they helping us connect more
deeply with
listeners and

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viewers, or are some of us just
stacking more
tasks onto an

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already heavy process?
I'll say, so I want to
start

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with this for the team, and for
everyone here in the
room, for

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that matter.
When you hear that podcasters

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are doing
more than ever, but
growth is still the biggest

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struggle.

What's your first reaction to

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that?
Yeah, Ralph, go ahead.

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Ralph Estep Jr.: Yeah, thank

you.

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Good morning, Mark.
And I'll give everybody a baby


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update.
We're still in, we're still in

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the holding period.
We
should have some movement

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on that today.
Things are
progressing, so

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thank you for all the people
that reached out.


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Anyway, to answer your question,
it's interesting.

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I had a call
yesterday with a
content creator, and when you

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talk about
the biggest
struggle doing more than ever, I

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think the problem
is people
have neglected the first thing,

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and that is who is
your
audience and who are you trying

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to reach.
I think it's
almost easier to

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do a stuff, it's easy to put
stuff out, it's
easy to do

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this and do that and do this,
but have you taken the
time to

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really focus in on who is your
audience, and the reason
I say

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that this guy's first thing to
me yesterday was like,
he

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says, "I'm making videos on
YouTube, Ralph, how do I make


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money with this?
And I said, "Who is your

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audience?
And he
says, "I'm not really

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sure.
And then I said, "Okay, what are

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you
trying to share with them?
He says, "That's a really good


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question, but how do I make
money with this, and so I think

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you've got to start out with
who is your audience, because

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you
can do a ton of things,
Mark, and I think that's where

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you're
going with this, you
can do a ton of things, but if

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you don't
have an audience,
you don't, and I said something

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to him, I said
you don't
monetize a show, you monetize an

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audience, and so I
think
that's part of what the struggle

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is that we're facing
here this
morning.

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Marc Ronick: Interesting, by the

way, Gabe in the chat says

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he's shocked that only 39% are

monetizing their podcasts.

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I'm wondering, Gabe, which
direction
you're shocked,

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because I say that because I was
kind of
shocked too, just in

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the sense that it unfortunately
that feels
a little high to

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me.
I don't see enough podcasters

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monetizing
really at all
around 40% seemed a little

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surprising to me, and
in a
good way, I suppose.

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Dan, did you want to chime in?
Dan: Yeah, just trying to figure

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out how to work the hot
pepper, if you know what I mean.

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Marc Ronick: By the way, the hot

pepper thing, that's a

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Clubhouse thing, that's how we
get each
other's attention

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here on the virtual stage.
Go ahead, Dan.

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Dan: Two things, first, just

real quick, what Gabe, yeah, it

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can be pretty hard to monetize a

podcast, and that's why

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nobody's doing it, because it
can be
really tricky.

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There's a lot of moving parts.
I wanted to add to
what Ralph

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said, and it is like, you do
want to know who your
audience

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is, for sure, but like, what I
found is more of a
psychology

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thing, and I've been doing like
just direct response
marketing

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for about 35 years now, and it's
not knowing just
who your

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audience is, but it's like
actually knowing how their


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brains are wired, and I found
that your listeners aren't


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exactly who you think they are.
There are two types of people,


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and you've got to pretty much
talk to them different, because

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their brains are wired
different.

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Every show is made up
of
audiences that either run toward

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benefits or those that
run
away from pain, and how you're

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doing all of your calls
to
action and how you're doing all

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your messaging really is
like
one of the key things.

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Like, I created a chart a long

time ago that every podcast is,

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they have a primary audience and

a secondary audience, and you

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want to talk to both of them in
all of your messaging, so like

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a true crime podcast, for
example,
the primary audience

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there, believe it or not, are
made up
of people who are pain

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avoidance, like they're largely
I love true crime, but it's

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like I always talk to my
co-host, who
is female, and

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she just goes crazy about it,
about true
crime, and I asked,

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well, why do you like this so
much, and she
said, I don't

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want to find myself waking up,
waking up
chained to some

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psycho radiator in his garage,
so I would like
to know if

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that ever happens.
What can I do, Marc Ronick:

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preparing in just
in case,
Dan: right?

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Exactly right, it's
just like
I gotta avoid pain at all, you

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know, at all costs,
where I.
Like true crime, and it's

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because I'm
benefit-oriented,
like at least in that niche,

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like, what am I
gonna watch on
Netflix this weekend, or

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whatever, but the
secondary
audience for even a movie show

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would be pain
avoidance,
which, and I fall into both of

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them, like, and
then spending
45 minutes trying to figure out

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what am I gonna
watch, and
then at the end I listen to

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podcasts instead, and
nothing
changes, and it's just bs, you

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know what I need,
exactly.
So understanding the primary and

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the secondary
audience is
like, then when you're doing

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your messaging on
social or
whatever, it's really easy,

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like, because you just
craft
one kind of call to action

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specifically for people who are
motivated by running away from

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pain, and you create the other

for people who are motivated by

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I want to get something out of

it, benefit oriented.

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Marc Ronick: Thank you, Dan.

Appreciate that.

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I gotta keep moving.
If several people want
to

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chime in, so thank you for, I
appreciate the insight, and I


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want to go to Matt Bliss.
Matt Bliss, good morning, Matt,

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00:11:04,467 --> 00:11:08,093
and I
were having a chat, a
side chat here in the Clubhouse

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00:11:08,093 --> 00:11:09,919
room.
And
Matt, what did you say?

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00:11:09,919 --> 00:11:11,969
I can't find it here, and I
don't want
to misquote you.

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Matt: Is this the monetization

thing?

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So I said the first comment when
the monetization
thing came

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up, I said, if I make $2 a week,
I'm monetized, and
Mark

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responded with, even if you
don't make any money, and I


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pointed out that perhaps
defining monetizing compared to

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being profitable is an
important distinction that we

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should
probably make, maybe.
Yeah, with regards to the data

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in the
article, too.
Marc Ronick: Yeah, and that's


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fair, you know, because, yeah,
technically, by definition,


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yeah, if you're making any kind
of money, that's monetizing, and

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I just jumped to, though, you
know, a lot of us can say we're

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monetizing our show, and I
think then a lot of other people

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will
assume, oh, well, they're
making some money, but the real

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goal
here is not just to
monetize, it's actually to be

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profitable
with that.
So, yeah, I think we both kind

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of see it the same
way, it's
just making sure we're clearly

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defining those two
terms, but
what did you want to add to

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00:12:04,900 --> 00:12:07,950
this, and again, just for

everyone to reset, the big

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00:12:08,040 --> 00:12:10,890
question I started with is, when

you hear that podcasters are

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00:12:10,980 --> 00:12:14,520
doing more than ever, but growth

is still the biggest struggle,

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00:12:14,670 --> 00:12:17,250
what's the first reaction?
What
say you, Matt?

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Matt: Thank you so much for that

reminder, because we got so

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00:12:19,680 --> 00:12:21,788
far down the path.
Yes, we got what
I was going

213
00:12:21,788 --> 00:12:24,389
to say.
Two things: less is more.

214
00:12:24,389 --> 00:12:27,569
I think
podcasters, even
considering growth and stacking

215
00:12:27,569 --> 00:12:30,616
all those
tactics that you
talked about, I think it's

216
00:12:30,616 --> 00:12:33,603
always good for them
to pare
back and analyze what they're

217
00:12:33,603 --> 00:12:37,063
doing that's too much,
and
then bring it back down to the

218
00:12:37,063 --> 00:12:39,950
key stuff, the main drivers,

and then starting to add things

219
00:12:40,070 --> 00:12:42,373
back again.
But also, with
growth, you

220
00:12:42,373 --> 00:12:46,522
have to set milestones for
yourself, because
growth is

221
00:12:46,522 --> 00:12:49,618
infinite.
If you're hunting for more of

222
00:12:49,618 --> 00:12:54,045
something
and you never reach
the asymptote of whatever that


223
00:12:54,053 --> 00:12:57,530
infinite number is that you
never set, then you're always


224
00:12:57,538 --> 00:13:00,312
going to be seeking growth, and
I think that's one of the things

225
00:13:00,312 --> 00:13:01,976

that makes us think it's a
perpetual problem.

226
00:13:01,976 --> 00:13:06,646
It's because
we always want
more, and if you listen to

227
00:13:06,646 --> 00:13:09,030
enough podcasts where

millionaires and billionaires

228
00:13:09,180 --> 00:13:13,320
talk about money, the ones that
get there and talk about being

229
00:13:13,470 --> 00:13:16,950
happy is that they hit their

number and then they stop, or

230
00:13:16,980 --> 00:13:19,053
they hit their number and they

start spending.

231
00:13:19,053 --> 00:13:22,253
They don't just continue making
more money
again, because you

232
00:13:22,253 --> 00:13:26,162
don't hit a number that you set
for yourself
as a goal, then

233
00:13:26,162 --> 00:13:28,802
it's never going to be a thing.
Now, to say that
it's not

234
00:13:28,802 --> 00:13:31,520
going to be you hit a growth
milestone and then you've


235
00:13:31,528 --> 00:13:34,886
achieved podcast and then you
stop, or you just ride that


236
00:13:34,894 --> 00:13:38,356
wave, but I think that hits that
perception that there's always


237
00:13:38,364 --> 00:13:42,755
growth that's needed, but for us
setting a goal for ourselves


238
00:13:42,763 --> 00:13:44,368
helps.
Marc Ronick: It's a really good

239
00:13:44,368 --> 00:13:45,943
point.
It's a really good point, Matt.

240
00:13:45,943 --> 00:13:49,164
Like, I'm thinking about
some
clients that I've been working

241
00:13:49,164 --> 00:13:53,212
with lately that hired
me as a
consultant, and their goals -

242
00:13:53,212 --> 00:13:55,699
there's two in
particular I'm
thinking of, and their goals are

243
00:13:55,699 --> 00:13:58,534
they want to
grow, they want
to keep growing, and they've

244
00:13:58,534 --> 00:14:01,398
been at it for a
couple years,
they have a steady audience.

245
00:14:01,398 --> 00:14:05,248
They have a few 100
people
that tune in every single week,

246
00:14:05,248 --> 00:14:06,438
but they're still wanting

more.

247
00:14:06,438 --> 00:14:08,703
I want more, I want more, I want
more.

248
00:14:08,703 --> 00:14:12,264
And it's at some
point, it's
like, well, why, and how many do

249
00:14:12,264 --> 00:14:14,206
we really need at
that point,
right?

250
00:14:14,206 --> 00:14:16,185
Like, they're not even trying to
monetize.


251
00:14:16,193 --> 00:14:19,180
There's one client I'm thinking
of, they're not even trying to


252
00:14:19,188 --> 00:14:22,022
monetize, like they don't care
about monetizing, they're doing

253
00:14:22,022 --> 00:14:25,000
fine.
They just want to reach lots and

254
00:14:25,000 --> 00:14:29,291
lots of people, but I
feel
like that will eventually could

255
00:14:29,291 --> 00:14:32,846
just lead to insanity,
because
again, it's like, when do you

256
00:14:32,846 --> 00:14:34,859
stop, and why do you
stop,
right?

257
00:14:34,859 --> 00:14:38,216
Like, I think that's a question
for all of us
to think about,

258
00:14:38,216 --> 00:14:41,187
when do we stop, and why?
Matt: It's why there's a


259
00:14:41,195 --> 00:14:45,077
practical, or at least a good
one, a practical component to


260
00:14:45,085 --> 00:14:47,509
any algebraic course in
mathematics.

261
00:14:47,509 --> 00:14:52,283
You can talk about
x equals,
you know, five plus y all day,

262
00:14:52,283 --> 00:14:55,257
but if you're not
filling in
the x and the y, then what's the

263
00:14:55,257 --> 00:14:56,745
point in filling out
the
formula?

264
00:14:56,745 --> 00:14:59,755
And Ralph was filling in the
formula for his
client, he's.

265
00:14:59,755 --> 00:15:01,999
Dude wanted more money.
I don't know about that
stuff,

266
00:15:01,999 --> 00:15:05,669
but I want more money.
And you're like, well, X, Y, and

267
00:15:05,669 --> 00:15:10,094

Z become X, knowing audience
Y, where they are, Zed, how to


268
00:15:10,102 --> 00:15:12,469
leverage that into what becomes
money.

269
00:15:12,469 --> 00:15:15,371
But they wanted money,
they
need to fill out the variables

270
00:15:15,371 --> 00:15:19,046
so that they can get
there.
Define the value, DR: Matthew,

271
00:15:19,046 --> 00:15:23,510
for the win with
the word
algebraic, Marc Ronick: should

272
00:15:23,510 --> 00:15:26,316
we hit the
jingle?
Jingle: Epistemological,


273
00:15:26,324 --> 00:15:29,100
antipodean, multifactorial,
slightly Tasmanian.

274
00:15:29,100 --> 00:15:31,800
Yeah,
hyperbolic,
bureaucratic, bit dramatic,

275
00:15:31,800 --> 00:15:34,250
existential, mate.

It's all schematic,

276
00:15:34,850 --> 00:15:38,330
sesquipedalian, mildly

Australian, cynical, critical,

277
00:15:38,390 --> 00:15:41,930
still conversational,

obfuscation, discombobulation,

278
00:15:41,990 --> 00:15:45,220
big words, small patience for

the situation.

279
00:15:45,640 --> 00:15:47,530
Marc Ronick: It's a longer

jingle, but it still makes me

280
00:15:47,620 --> 00:15:49,706
groove the whole time.
I'll take
it.

281
00:15:49,706 --> 00:15:52,490
Thank you, Matt.
Now, I know a lot of people

282
00:15:52,490 --> 00:15:55,939
still want to
chime in.
I'm gonna go to Sid, and then I

283
00:15:55,939 --> 00:15:57,776
know, BC, you had
something as
well.

284
00:15:57,776 --> 00:15:59,410
Sid, good morning.
What did you want to
add?

285
00:15:59,920 --> 00:16:01,170
Sid Meadows: Good morning,

everybody.

286
00:16:01,170 --> 00:16:04,432
Before, can you please add, I
believe it was
acetate or

287
00:16:04,432 --> 00:16:06,450
acetop to the wheel of jargon,
please.

288
00:16:06,689 --> 00:16:08,295
Marc Ronick: Okay, Sid Meadows:
and got it.


289
00:16:08,303 --> 00:16:10,992
Explaining it the way Matt used
it, please.

290
00:16:10,992 --> 00:16:15,129
So I am..
Is this
conversation about

291
00:16:15,129 --> 00:16:17,045
monetization, or is it about
growth?

292
00:16:17,045 --> 00:16:18,876
We went
down monetization, but
I thought your question was

293
00:16:18,876 --> 00:16:21,725
about growth.
Marc Ronick: Yeah, I mean, it


294
00:16:21,733 --> 00:16:24,955
was essentially about growth,
but it quickly moved over to


295
00:16:24,963 --> 00:16:27,259
monetization, and you know, pick
your poison.

296
00:16:28,580 --> 00:16:31,138
Sid Meadows: So I'm gonna answer

the question, and I honestly,

297
00:16:31,138 --> 00:16:34,250
my show is growing, and we're

working really hard, and I'm

298
00:16:34,310 --> 00:16:36,770
really happy with where it's

grown, how it's growing, where

299
00:16:36,800 --> 00:16:39,410
it's growing, and the reach

we're getting, and but I feel

300
00:16:39,410 --> 00:16:42,005
like I'm on a treadmill, or I'm
on a, you know, I'm a hamster

301
00:16:42,005 --> 00:16:45,490
on a spinning wheel, because it
always is nonstop, always

302
00:16:45,580 --> 00:16:48,310
happening, always having to do

something, always testing this

303
00:16:48,520 --> 00:16:51,760
email idea, always testing this
post idea, changing, you know,

304
00:16:51,940 --> 00:16:54,395
formats of newsletters and blogs

and things of that nature.

305
00:16:54,395 --> 00:16:58,330
So, for me, it's a hamster wheel

feeling, but it feels really

306
00:16:58,450 --> 00:17:01,440
good, because I'm seeing the

result that I wanted, which was,

307
00:17:01,710 --> 00:17:05,369
you know, strategic,

incremental, intentional growth

308
00:17:05,460 --> 00:17:08,939
of my show, and it's happening.
Marc Ronick: So, Sid, you know,

309
00:17:08,939 --> 00:17:12,337
this hamster wheel analogy -
it's like, when do you get off


310
00:17:12,345 --> 00:17:15,768
the wheel Sid Meadows: in
December?

311
00:17:15,768 --> 00:17:17,403
When
they quit publishing,
really?

312
00:17:17,403 --> 00:17:20,300
I mean, actually, that's really
the best time to grow at your

313
00:17:20,450 --> 00:17:22,172
show, honestly.
When you're not
publishing, or

314
00:17:22,172 --> 00:17:26,406
when you should be doing it,
remembering January
of this

315
00:17:26,406 --> 00:17:30,080
year, my show grew
exponentially, and we did not


316
00:17:30,088 --> 00:17:31,690
publish at all, like
exponentially.

317
00:17:31,690 --> 00:17:35,574
Like, we had 3000
people
listen to the show in the month

318
00:17:35,574 --> 00:17:38,550
of January with no
publication
and very little marketing or

319
00:17:38,550 --> 00:17:40,708
advertising around
it.
So, I don't know that you ever

320
00:17:40,708 --> 00:17:43,210
really get, uh, I'm just

thinking maybe it slows down a

321
00:17:43,240 --> 00:17:45,325
little bit.
Marc Ronick: Okay, that's fair.

322
00:17:45,325 --> 00:17:46,495

It slows down a little bit.

323
00:17:46,495 --> 00:17:50,504
And again, I think where I'm
getting
really infatuated here

324
00:17:50,504 --> 00:17:53,584
and hyper fixated on is again
this idea.


325
00:17:53,592 --> 00:17:58,255
It's like, when do we say when?
When are we satisfied, right?


326
00:17:58,263 --> 00:18:02,134
And even to Matt's point, it's
like, you know, yeah, we can set

327
00:18:02,134 --> 00:18:03,930

those goals, but then, then
what?

328
00:18:03,930 --> 00:18:06,545
Like, once we hit those
goals,
then when we just, more and

329
00:18:06,545 --> 00:18:09,570
more, more, I feel like,
where
we set ourselves up for

330
00:18:10,800 --> 00:18:13,422
disaster, DR: isn't that just
like life?

331
00:18:13,422 --> 00:18:17,980
I
mean, when I was in the nine
to five world, I was constantly,

332
00:18:17,980 --> 00:18:22,244

you know, gotta, I gotta do
more work for that bonus.

333
00:18:22,244 --> 00:18:26,170
Oh, that
Christmas bonus is
coming out, so I got to shine.

334
00:18:26,170 --> 00:18:29,510
Got a shine.

I mean, it's always a.. but I

335
00:18:29,630 --> 00:18:32,663
don't mind that, because I am

bettering myself.

336
00:18:32,663 --> 00:18:35,045
It's like I'm in a competition
with myself.

337
00:18:35,045 --> 00:18:37,430
Do
you know what I mean?
Marc Ronick: Yeah, DR: yeah.

338
00:18:37,430 --> 00:18:40,347
So, Marc Ronick: I mean, there
is
such a thing as a healthy,

339
00:18:40,347 --> 00:18:44,340
a healthy dose of that too.
Yes,
yeah, I'm with you there.

340
00:18:44,340 --> 00:18:46,465
That's a good point.
Thank you.

341
00:18:46,465 --> 00:18:50,359
Dr. and
BC, hold tight.
Tide has been raising her hand

342
00:18:50,359 --> 00:18:52,898
multiple times
around this
particular part of the

343
00:18:52,898 --> 00:18:55,180
conversation, so I feel like

she has something to add here.

344
00:18:55,480 --> 00:18:56,770
Tide, go for it.
Good morning.

345
00:18:57,520 --> 00:18:58,715
Knikki: Good morning.
Yes, I
apologize.

346
00:18:58,715 --> 00:19:02,776
I was just gonna say that I
think that my fixation on
the

347
00:19:02,776 --> 00:19:06,380
monetization part comes from an
experience that I had


348
00:19:06,388 --> 00:19:10,775
yesterday, and that is, it was a
client who came to me, it was


349
00:19:10,783 --> 00:19:15,420
actually a friend, a colleague,
and he wanted to grow his


350
00:19:15,428 --> 00:19:18,816
audience, and it wasn't
specifically for podcasting, but

351
00:19:18,816 --> 00:19:23,032

it was about growth, and so he
had no idea how to do it.

352
00:19:23,032 --> 00:19:25,204
He's
never engaged in any
level of entrepreneurial

353
00:19:25,204 --> 00:19:29,438
activity before,
and so, but
he was all about the money, all

354
00:19:29,438 --> 00:19:31,512
about the money.
How
do I, how do I sell this?

355
00:19:31,512 --> 00:19:34,017
What, what do I sell it for?
And he
said that he went to

356
00:19:34,017 --> 00:19:37,460
YouTube, and the videos that he
had
listened to were, you

357
00:19:37,460 --> 00:19:41,066
know, just of randos, basically
saying
charge what you're

358
00:19:41,066 --> 00:19:43,966
worth, and don't under charge
yourself,
don't do this, don't

359
00:19:43,966 --> 00:19:48,454
do that, and he came in with
that kind of
mentality, and so

360
00:19:48,454 --> 00:19:52,232
I had asked him, I said, well,
sort of like,
like Ralph, I

361
00:19:52,232 --> 00:19:56,068
said, do you, do you know who
you want to get
this product

362
00:19:56,068 --> 00:19:58,162
to?
For the record, I think you have

363
00:19:58,162 --> 00:19:59,983
a good product,
it's just
you're so focused.

364
00:19:59,983 --> 00:20:04,095
On the price of everything that
I
want to know, like, how

365
00:20:04,095 --> 00:20:07,056
you're expecting to, a, I want
to know
how you're expecting

366
00:20:07,056 --> 00:20:10,504
to sell this, and I also want to
know
who your audience is,

367
00:20:10,504 --> 00:20:13,675
like Ralph said.
So we started talking
about

368
00:20:13,675 --> 00:20:17,890
the how he wanted to monetize,
and when we spoke
about the

369
00:20:17,890 --> 00:20:21,317
how first, then it became clear
to me that his
particular

370
00:20:21,317 --> 00:20:24,635
audience was three segments: it
was community
colleges,

371
00:20:24,635 --> 00:20:27,902
homeschool moms, and public and
private school
teachers, but

372
00:20:27,902 --> 00:20:31,014
the product itself would have to
be specifically
tailored to

373
00:20:31,014 --> 00:20:35,056
each one, and when it came to
the growth aspect,
there was

374
00:20:35,056 --> 00:20:38,587
no way in his mind mentally,
because he was so
focused on

375
00:20:38,587 --> 00:20:41,225
the dollar amount and monetary
monetization, he was so


376
00:20:41,233 --> 00:20:44,996
focused on that, that there was
no way to get him to realize


377
00:20:45,004 --> 00:20:48,430
that I could think of anyway to
realize how important his


378
00:20:48,438 --> 00:20:53,410
audience was until we started
talking about the how and what


379
00:20:53,418 --> 00:20:55,990
monetization actually meant for
him.

380
00:20:55,990 --> 00:20:57,910
What did it?
What, what are
you actually

381
00:20:57,910 --> 00:21:00,246
looking to monetize?
How are you looking to


382
00:21:00,254 --> 00:21:04,110
monetize it, and and where do
you see yourself selling your


383
00:21:04,118 --> 00:21:07,665
products and services, and all
of that, and once those


384
00:21:07,673 --> 00:21:10,315
questions were asked, it opened
his eyes, because he realized


385
00:21:10,323 --> 00:21:13,020
what he didn't know.
He said, "Oh, shoot, I don't, I

386
00:21:13,020 --> 00:21:17,034
don't
know what I don't know,
and that helped the growth of

387
00:21:17,034 --> 00:21:21,955
him
personally, and then also
it helped him realize that he

388
00:21:21,955 --> 00:21:25,079
could
sell his products
successfully if he understood

389
00:21:25,079 --> 00:21:28,139
that piece
first, and that's
why I say, if you're talking to

390
00:21:28,139 --> 00:21:31,094
someone and
they say, 'Hey, I
want to monetize my show, I want

391
00:21:31,094 --> 00:21:34,007
to
monetize this, I want to
monetize that, it might be


392
00:21:34,015 --> 00:21:36,434
important to consider,
especially if they're stuck on


393
00:21:36,442 --> 00:21:39,260
that and they're stuck on the
dollar amount and they just want

394
00:21:39,260 --> 00:21:42,114

to make the big money, so to
speak, it may be important to


395
00:21:42,122 --> 00:21:45,145
ask, How do you want to do this?
Are you thinking about running


396
00:21:45,153 --> 00:21:46,741
ads?
Are you thinking about doing

397
00:21:46,741 --> 00:21:48,667
webinars?
Are you thinking
about having

398
00:21:48,667 --> 00:21:50,761
your own website, those types of
things?

399
00:21:50,761 --> 00:21:53,700
How do
you want to monetize?
Because then that person will

400
00:21:53,700 --> 00:21:57,439
realize,
oh shoot, I don't
know, I have no, no idea.

401
00:21:57,439 --> 00:22:00,785
And then once that
becomes
clear, then the audience factor

402
00:22:00,785 --> 00:22:03,270
may be a successful
byproduct
of that.

403
00:22:04,020 --> 00:22:07,080
Marc Ronick: Nikki, thank you

for sharing that timely example.

404
00:22:07,260 --> 00:22:10,710
It's interesting that happened

just yesterday, and I see here

405
00:22:10,890 --> 00:22:13,752
Matt Bliss is agreeing with you,

saying spot on Tide.

406
00:22:13,752 --> 00:22:18,216
If you work backwards from money
and the
price point, it's a

407
00:22:18,216 --> 00:22:20,186
rough time.
Yeah, agreed.

408
00:22:20,186 --> 00:22:23,270
And thank you
again for that,
Tide, and BC.

409
00:22:23,720 --> 00:22:24,866
Thank you for being so patient.


410
00:22:24,874 --> 00:22:26,600
What did you want to add to all
this?

411
00:22:27,080 --> 00:22:27,770
BC Babbles: Good morning,

everyone.

412
00:22:27,770 --> 00:22:29,768
I want to take a slightly
different approach to
this

413
00:22:29,768 --> 00:22:34,571
real quick, and I'm wondering if
part of the growth
issue for

414
00:22:34,571 --> 00:22:39,053
podcasters is the perspective or
the perception of
what podcast

415
00:22:39,053 --> 00:22:43,187
nowadays even is.
We talk so much on the show


416
00:22:43,195 --> 00:22:46,678
about how different evolutions
in the industry are pulling the

417
00:22:46,678 --> 00:22:50,416
definition of podcasting every
which way, and think if I'm not

418
00:22:50,416 --> 00:22:53,815
a podcaster and I'm hearing all
these things about like what


419
00:22:53,823 --> 00:22:57,334
Spotify is doing, what Amazon's
doing, and hearing about how so

420
00:22:57,334 --> 00:23:01,630
much content nowadays is
becoming so AI non-human driven.

421
00:23:01,630 --> 00:23:05,010


I'm wondering if there's a point

422
00:23:05,100 --> 00:23:08,670
in me looking for a podcast I

like and connecting with it and

423
00:23:08,730 --> 00:23:11,098
staying with it and helping it

grow over time.

424
00:23:11,098 --> 00:23:14,172
And so I feel like the way
things are
changing, that it

425
00:23:14,172 --> 00:23:18,740
creates this kind of cacophony
of all this AI
sound, all this

426
00:23:18,740 --> 00:23:22,031
saturation sound, and it kind
of, I think
it might limit the

427
00:23:22,031 --> 00:23:25,646
perspective of being loyal to a
creator and
even helping any

428
00:23:25,646 --> 00:23:27,560
kind of particular show grow
over time.

429
00:23:28,250 --> 00:23:31,574
Marc Ronick: I see.
Okay, so I
think what I'm

430
00:23:31,574 --> 00:23:33,800
hearing is just to be clear
about this.

431
00:23:33,800 --> 00:23:36,515
So,
you're basically saying,
is it that the, you feel like

432
00:23:36,515 --> 00:23:39,718
the
market is so saturated
that it's hard for audiences to

433
00:23:39,718 --> 00:23:43,300
really
stay loyal to one or
couple of their favorite shows.

434
00:23:43,630 --> 00:23:46,060
BC Babbles: Saturation is part

of it, is again with like we

435
00:23:46,210 --> 00:23:49,320
talked about Spotify yesterday,
and how the definition of what

436
00:23:49,320 --> 00:23:53,768
a podcast is, or what a podcast
is
being so stretched in so

437
00:23:53,768 --> 00:23:56,638
many directions.
I think it's hard to
determine

438
00:23:56,638 --> 00:24:00,460
what people should expect from
my idea of
podcasting.

439
00:24:01,060 --> 00:24:02,105
Marc Ronick: Yeah, that's fair.


440
00:24:02,113 --> 00:24:03,955
Yeah, and Matt, you had
something else you wanted to


441
00:24:03,963 --> 00:24:05,760
add.
Matt: So, the definition of


442
00:24:05,768 --> 00:24:09,228
podcast, I think we get, we get
caught up on that a lot, and


443
00:24:09,236 --> 00:24:12,942
we're in a space here where we
have access and understand a


444
00:24:12,950 --> 00:24:16,752
little bit more about what the
more than what the listener and

445
00:24:16,752 --> 00:24:18,994
the audience member might
interact with.

446
00:24:18,994 --> 00:24:23,090
I don't know
about you guys,
but there are still so many

447
00:24:23,090 --> 00:24:27,845
people that have
no idea what
a podcast is, but they love Amy

448
00:24:27,845 --> 00:24:31,829
Poehler's new
show, or you
know, Andrew Huberman, he's the

449
00:24:31,829 --> 00:24:33,386
bomb.
I love
listening to him for

450
00:24:33,386 --> 00:24:36,248
three hours talk about one very
specific
routine or subsystem

451
00:24:36,248 --> 00:24:40,290
in the human body.
I think focusing on
what the

452
00:24:40,290 --> 00:24:43,309
listeners interact with, or the
watchers interact
with, is

453
00:24:43,309 --> 00:24:47,554
probably the most important part
to focus on, and
one thing you

454
00:24:47,554 --> 00:24:50,770
did say there, BC, was the idea
of the parasocial


455
00:24:50,778 --> 00:24:52,469
relationship.
You didn't say it explicitly,

456
00:24:52,469 --> 00:24:55,946
but creating a
relationship
with your favorite host or

457
00:24:55,946 --> 00:24:59,656
creator, I think doing
that is
the key part.

458
00:24:59,656 --> 00:25:03,579
I don't think starting with
podcast and
working backwards

459
00:25:03,579 --> 00:25:07,230
from there to make that happen
with the
general principles

460
00:25:07,230 --> 00:25:09,660
that get thrown around at the
beginning
of a podcaster's

461
00:25:09,660 --> 00:25:11,475
journey.
I think every creator is a

462
00:25:11,475 --> 00:25:14,600
little
bit different, and if
they're open to doing all the

463
00:25:14,600 --> 00:25:17,728
things
we've talked about so
far that everybody's talked

464
00:25:17,728 --> 00:25:22,682
about in kind
of stepping back
and reflecting and analyzing how

465
00:25:22,682 --> 00:25:25,784
your content
connects with
whatever audience you need, I

466
00:25:25,784 --> 00:25:30,056
think that shows you
the path
to getting more people into your

467
00:25:30,056 --> 00:25:32,702
show to listen.
That
doesn't talk about

468
00:25:32,702 --> 00:25:36,329
monetization specifically, which
is seems to
be a big topic,

469
00:25:36,329 --> 00:25:39,060
but like that parasocial
relationship that's
going to

470
00:25:39,060 --> 00:25:43,148
loop back, bc and I think if I
had advice for you, I
would

471
00:25:43,148 --> 00:25:46,960
say capitalize on that, because
Patreon, for example,
it's

472
00:25:46,960 --> 00:25:51,836
more of a social platform guided
towards listeners and


473
00:25:51,844 --> 00:25:55,430
consumers, the creators are
taking a back seat to the


474
00:25:55,438 --> 00:25:58,600
platform, but the next iteration
of that will be creator first,


475
00:25:58,608 --> 00:26:01,101
better focus on parasocial
relationships and creating


476
00:26:01,109 --> 00:26:03,568
personalities.
Now, that's that's a very

477
00:26:03,568 --> 00:26:07,314
ambitious take
from me there,
but I think parasocial

478
00:26:07,314 --> 00:26:10,454
relationships, that's
that's
what we should be focused on,

479
00:26:10,454 --> 00:26:12,990
and it's what I think

podcasters should be focused on.

480
00:26:13,230 --> 00:26:16,380
That's the hamster wheel that I
think you'll love running on.

481
00:26:16,680 --> 00:26:18,624
Does that make sense?
Marc Ronick: Yeah, that makes a

482
00:26:18,624 --> 00:26:20,324
lot of sense, Matt.
Yeah, and I think Ralph wanted

483
00:26:20,324 --> 00:26:23,526
to add
something too.
Ralph Estep Jr.: I want to drop

484
00:26:23,526 --> 00:26:26,260
a bomb in here, and don't be
seriously, because when I, when

485
00:26:26,260 --> 00:26:28,685
I actually wrote a blog article
about this article today that


486
00:26:28,693 --> 00:26:31,283
everybody can check out, we'll
put a link in the show notes.


487
00:26:31,291 --> 00:26:33,677
But I think the thing that stood
out to me about this article,


488
00:26:33,685 --> 00:26:35,475
because I want to get back to
this article, because there's a

489
00:26:35,475 --> 00:26:38,030
lot of good stuff in here.
I think what this article is


490
00:26:38,038 --> 00:26:40,916
telling us is the easy era of
podcasting is over.

491
00:26:40,916 --> 00:26:44,888
We've been
telling people that
when you buy a microphone and

492
00:26:44,888 --> 00:26:48,436
you be
consistent and you show
up for your audience every week,

493
00:26:48,436 --> 00:26:50,210
that
it's just going to
magically happen.

494
00:26:50,210 --> 00:26:52,380
Guess what, friends,
that era
is gone.

495
00:26:52,380 --> 00:26:54,931
We are in a much different place
now.

496
00:26:54,931 --> 00:26:58,126
BC
alluded to it, the
saturation of the market, the

497
00:26:58,126 --> 00:27:00,432
professionalism
of what's
going on in the market.

498
00:27:00,432 --> 00:27:03,800
We've got to realize
that what
we have now, and I've said this

499
00:27:03,800 --> 00:27:06,156
on the show many
times, are
media companies.

500
00:27:06,156 --> 00:27:09,282
It's not as simple as just the
way it
used to be.

501
00:27:09,282 --> 00:27:11,586
It was simple before.
Get a simple microphone
and

502
00:27:11,586 --> 00:27:14,475
just start talking into a
microphone, and your audience


503
00:27:14,483 --> 00:27:17,126
will come.
We've gotten beyond that, and I

504
00:27:17,126 --> 00:27:19,165
think that we have
to
recognize that, because there's

505
00:27:19,165 --> 00:27:21,740
a lot of people that
think,
because I talked to one

506
00:27:21,740 --> 00:27:24,710
yesterday, they think they're

just going to jump into this by

507
00:27:24,830 --> 00:27:27,620
a simple microphone and start

talking, and magically all these

508
00:27:27,710 --> 00:27:31,010
people are going to appear, but
growth doesn't work like that.

509
00:27:31,520 --> 00:27:34,550
Growth comes with clarifying

what you're doing, positioning

510
00:27:34,610 --> 00:27:37,474
yourself, promoting what you're
doing, and you've got to build

511
00:27:37,474 --> 00:27:40,330
a reason for listeners to come

back, and you've got to figure

512
00:27:40,390 --> 00:27:43,390
out how to get them to your

place in the first place, so one

513
00:27:43,510 --> 00:27:46,030
of the things that I want to

talk about is what's been the

514
00:27:46,210 --> 00:27:48,670
hardest part of growing your

podcast, or everybody here,

515
00:27:48,760 --> 00:27:52,570
because all of us have been in

this, I'll call it a cyclone of

516
00:27:52,660 --> 00:27:55,510
trying to make this work.
What
has worked for us,

517
00:27:55,510 --> 00:27:58,530
because the thing it talks about
in this
article, and I agree

518
00:27:58,530 --> 00:28:01,911
with this, is it says video is
no longer
optional, it's very

519
00:28:01,911 --> 00:28:03,882
bold in this article, and says
it.

520
00:28:03,882 --> 00:28:06,036
I agree,
because I think
there's discoverability in

521
00:28:06,036 --> 00:28:09,009
there, but I
think we should
pivot this, because it's real

522
00:28:09,009 --> 00:28:11,190
easy to get
stuck on
monetization, because honestly,

523
00:28:11,190 --> 00:28:14,190
the people that I talk
to,
everybody focuses on that,

524
00:28:14,580 --> 00:28:17,250
because everybody wants this to
be a side hustle or be their

525
00:28:17,370 --> 00:28:20,600
main job, and that's fantastic,
but I think we've got to go a

526
00:28:20,630 --> 00:28:23,050
little deeper and say, how do we

grow the audience first?

527
00:28:23,050 --> 00:28:25,900
So, what has been the hardest
part
of growing your podcast?

528
00:28:25,900 --> 00:28:28,170
Because that's what I think is
going to
be valuable to people

529
00:28:28,170 --> 00:28:30,440
here this morning.
Marc Ronick: And Ralph, I just


530
00:28:30,448 --> 00:28:33,830
want to add something to just as
far as how things are changing


531
00:28:33,838 --> 00:28:38,216
when we talk about growing an
audience, and I think you were


532
00:28:38,224 --> 00:28:40,968
saying something around - at
least I wrote this down, so I


533
00:28:40,976 --> 00:28:43,985
don't know if it came from my
head or you, but the idea of


534
00:28:43,993 --> 00:28:47,380
really making a solid effort
into growth, like putting the


535
00:28:47,388 --> 00:28:51,172
time and effort into finding
ways to grow, if that's your


536
00:28:51,180 --> 00:28:56,128
goal, and I think this is the
other point that gets missed a


537
00:28:56,136 --> 00:28:58,840
lot.
If it's not working, try

538
00:28:59,110 --> 00:29:02,910
something else.
I see so many of
us in this

539
00:29:02,910 --> 00:29:06,448
community, outside of this
community, in the overall


540
00:29:06,456 --> 00:29:10,920
podcasting community that focus
on, okay, I got to keep doing


541
00:29:10,928 --> 00:29:14,382
this over and over and over
again, and eventually they'll


542
00:29:14,390 --> 00:29:18,498
come, but if they're, if it's
not working now, the chances of

543
00:29:18,498 --> 00:29:22,594
it working later are slim to
none, so I think I think a lot


544
00:29:22,602 --> 00:29:24,627
of us just get, including yours,
truly.

545
00:29:24,627 --> 00:29:29,000
I do this sometimes too.

I get so caught up in the rhythm

546
00:29:29,180 --> 00:29:32,510
and the routine and applying the

things that I learned

547
00:29:32,750 --> 00:29:37,100
originally, and just thinking

eventually this will work, but I

548
00:29:37,190 --> 00:29:41,470
think at some point we have to

stop and say, is it working, and

549
00:29:41,500 --> 00:29:42,880
do we need to try something

else?

550
00:29:43,510 --> 00:29:44,542
Ralph Estep Jr.: Mark, you're

right on.

551
00:29:44,542 --> 00:29:46,968
And that's the truth.
Is we have to accept that things

552
00:29:46,968 --> 00:29:49,516

are different now.
The way of doing things before

553
00:29:49,516 --> 00:29:52,054
have
changed.
Yes, we still have to give

554
00:29:52,054 --> 00:29:54,406
remarkable content.
We
still have to have clear

555
00:29:54,406 --> 00:29:56,194
audio.
Those are givens now.


556
00:29:56,202 --> 00:29:59,204
Consistency is a given.
We used to tell people, well,

557
00:29:59,204 --> 00:30:01,518
just show
up.
Every week, and if you show up,

558
00:30:01,518 --> 00:30:04,093
it's going to happen.
You
can be showing up with

559
00:30:04,093 --> 00:30:06,888
garbage content that nobody's
interested
in, and it's not

560
00:30:06,888 --> 00:30:10,215
going to magically grow.
I could stand
out front of my

561
00:30:10,215 --> 00:30:13,419
house here and look at my pickup
truck and say,
"You're a

562
00:30:13,419 --> 00:30:14,362
Lamborghini.
Well, guess what?

563
00:30:14,362 --> 00:30:16,005
I can do that for 10
years
straight.

564
00:30:16,005 --> 00:30:17,607
It's still going to be a pickup
truck.

565
00:30:17,607 --> 00:30:20,543
This is
just the way of the
world, and people need to stop

566
00:30:20,543 --> 00:30:23,909
buying into
this facade of, if
you build it, they will come.

567
00:30:23,909 --> 00:30:26,756
You've got to
figure out, are
you building something that

568
00:30:26,756 --> 00:30:28,304
people want?
Are
you building something

569
00:30:28,304 --> 00:30:31,308
that they find value in?
And if you're
not, change what

570
00:30:31,308 --> 00:30:33,374
you're doing, because
consistency alone is not
going

571
00:30:33,374 --> 00:30:35,531
to get you there, Marc Ronick:
right?

572
00:30:35,531 --> 00:30:37,494
And that's
the key, right?
Like, consistency, consistency

573
00:30:37,494 --> 00:30:41,560
alone
won't do it, but it is a
factor.

574
00:30:41,860 --> 00:30:46,870
It is important, but so it's

show up, be consistent, and try

575
00:30:47,080 --> 00:30:49,117
new things.
If the things that
you're

576
00:30:49,117 --> 00:30:52,540
already doing isn't working, in
my opinion, Ralph Estep Jr.: and

577
00:30:52,540 --> 00:30:53,941
have a
strategy.
Mark, that's the other side.

578
00:30:53,941 --> 00:30:56,710
Well, sure, I think a lot
of
people don't have a strategy.

579
00:30:57,220 --> 00:30:59,680
You've got to have a strategy.

You've got to run this thing

580
00:31:00,100 --> 00:31:03,390
like a business from the front

end, and what is your strategy?

581
00:31:03,390 --> 00:31:05,820
If you opened up a hot dog

stand, you got to have a

582
00:31:05,880 --> 00:31:08,370
strategy to how to get people to

come up there and buy hot dogs

583
00:31:08,430 --> 00:31:10,196
from you.
If you sit there every
day and

584
00:31:10,196 --> 00:31:12,890
nobody walks up the window to
buy a hot dog, you got
to go

585
00:31:12,890 --> 00:31:14,955
figure out what's going on and
how to fix that.

586
00:31:14,955 --> 00:31:17,802
I think
with a lot of content
creators, they don't do that.

587
00:31:17,802 --> 00:31:19,260
They say,
"Well, I just keep
doing it.

588
00:31:19,320 --> 00:31:22,262
I'll post on social media, I'll
write blog posts.

589
00:31:22,262 --> 00:31:25,832
If nobody is connecting to it,
stop doing
what you're doing,

590
00:31:25,832 --> 00:31:29,180
it's not working.
Marc Ronick: Yeah, I'm with you

591
00:31:29,180 --> 00:31:30,882
there.
And we've got lots of people

592
00:31:30,882 --> 00:31:34,589
chiming in.
Some Baza
says in the chat, my

593
00:31:34,589 --> 00:31:37,805
question is, if you remain the
same and
constantly keep

594
00:31:37,805 --> 00:31:42,674
making the same content, we know
that YouTube
and all the other

595
00:31:42,674 --> 00:31:46,270
content providers change their

algorithms, maybe at some point

596
00:31:46,330 --> 00:31:49,000
your content will become

noticeable to the audience that

597
00:31:49,120 --> 00:31:51,198
you're already looking for if

they change.

598
00:31:51,198 --> 00:31:53,740
Ralph, you're disagreeing.
And then, by the
way, Sid,

599
00:31:53,740 --> 00:31:56,505
you're on deck.
Ralph Estep Jr.: I think I don't

600
00:31:56,505 --> 00:31:58,548

agree, Symbols.
I love you, brother, but I don't

601
00:31:58,548 --> 00:32:01,440
agree with
that, because what
is going on on YouTube right now

602
00:32:01,440 --> 00:32:03,726
is, you got
a bunch of clowns
out there just chasing the

603
00:32:03,726 --> 00:32:05,302
algorithm.
Well, let
me go do this, and

604
00:32:05,302 --> 00:32:09,516
let me go do this, but no one is
putting out
stuff that is

605
00:32:09,516 --> 00:32:12,453
actually changing the dynamic,
and if you just
follow the

606
00:32:12,453 --> 00:32:15,012
trends, guess what happens?
The trends stop, and
you're

607
00:32:15,012 --> 00:32:18,020
waiting to see when it's going
to catch up with you.

608
00:32:18,020 --> 00:32:19,770
So,
I respectfully disagree
with that approach.

609
00:32:20,280 --> 00:32:22,010
Marc Ronick: Yeah, I mean,

that's like a waiting game that

610
00:32:22,130 --> 00:32:24,288
may, that you may never win,

right?

611
00:32:24,288 --> 00:32:27,165
Because if you're going to just
sit back and wait for
the

612
00:32:27,165 --> 00:32:29,490
algorithm, and I know you're not
necessarily some buzzer
saying

613
00:32:29,490 --> 00:32:32,744
sit back and wait for the
algorithm, but if that is kind


614
00:32:32,752 --> 00:32:35,335
of a sidebar thing that's
happening, I think you're just


615
00:32:35,343 --> 00:32:37,400
going to be waiting a very long
time.

616
00:32:37,400 --> 00:32:41,350
Sure, you might pull that

lever on the slot machine, and

617
00:32:41,500 --> 00:32:45,820
it might win one time, but it's
not a strategy in my opinion,

618
00:32:46,450 --> 00:32:49,870
and I do say that, like you say,

Ralph, with all due respect,

619
00:32:49,900 --> 00:32:53,020
because somebody, I love you,

and it's just, you could try

620
00:32:53,140 --> 00:32:55,600
that strategy, but I think it's
going to drive a lot of people

621
00:32:55,660 --> 00:32:57,600
crazy.
Sid, what did you want to
add?

622
00:32:57,600 --> 00:33:00,160
And then Matt, you're on deck,
and then we'll hear from
Dr.

623
00:33:00,160 --> 00:33:03,407
as well, Sid Meadows: and so one
of the
things we have to

624
00:33:03,407 --> 00:33:06,832
remember about growth is, you
know, you can get
them there,

625
00:33:06,832 --> 00:33:10,383
they hit play and they start to
listen, right, but
you got to

626
00:33:10,383 --> 00:33:13,175
keep them, and you got to be
sure you got the doing
the

627
00:33:13,175 --> 00:33:15,368
right things to keep them, so
they come back and hit play


628
00:33:15,376 --> 00:33:18,672
the next time you publish, or
they go into your back catalog


629
00:33:18,680 --> 00:33:23,120
and they start to listen to
others, so, and I mentioned this

630
00:33:23,120 --> 00:33:28,880

several weeks ago, I got 697
I've looked in a while,


631
00:33:28,888 --> 00:33:33,455
followers on Apple, but 900 and
something listeners, my job is


632
00:33:33,463 --> 00:33:36,590
to convert those listeners to
followers, they're coming to


633
00:33:36,598 --> 00:33:38,420
listen, they're just not
following the show, they're


634
00:33:38,428 --> 00:33:41,934
maybe about coming back or not,
and so I think that growth is a

635
00:33:41,934 --> 00:33:44,531
multi-pronged approach, but if
you get them there, you got to


636
00:33:44,539 --> 00:33:47,240
keep them there, and that to me
a completely different strategy.

637
00:33:47,240 --> 00:33:48,760


And one of the ways that I did

638
00:33:48,850 --> 00:33:52,378
it to earlier conversation, I

started something new.

639
00:33:52,378 --> 00:33:56,402
My spin, I call my hot takes the
spinny
wheel.

640
00:33:56,402 --> 00:34:00,133
People love that episode, and
it's a lot of fun to create.


641
00:34:00,141 --> 00:34:02,829
I really enjoy it.
There's a lot of laughs, there's

642
00:34:02,829 --> 00:34:06,190
some
disagreements, and my
audience can't get enough of it.

643
00:34:06,190 --> 00:34:08,764
And I
get messages every time
we publish one of those, right

644
00:34:08,764 --> 00:34:10,074
now,
which is only once a
month.

645
00:34:10,074 --> 00:34:13,333
And so we're trying something
new,
and we've done a lot of,

646
00:34:13,333 --> 00:34:16,208
we've done a lot of new things,
but
that used to be is the

647
00:34:16,208 --> 00:34:18,471
biggest new thing that we've
done that I
think is helping

648
00:34:18,471 --> 00:34:20,489
to attract new people, and then
hopefully
keeping them.

649
00:34:20,489 --> 00:34:23,090
So you do have to always be
trying and testing.

650
00:34:23,929 --> 00:34:25,634
Marc Ronick: Thank you, Sid.

Appreciate that.

651
00:34:25,634 --> 00:34:28,100
Let's check back in with Matt.
Go ahead,
Matt.

652
00:34:28,850 --> 00:34:32,300
Matt: I'd like to step back with

a philosophical take, just on

653
00:34:32,600 --> 00:34:35,699
the nature of things.
I've set a
timer for three

654
00:34:35,699 --> 00:34:37,618
minutes.
When that goes off, my time

655
00:34:37,618 --> 00:34:38,630
stops.
Do
we agree?

656
00:34:40,460 --> 00:34:41,590
Marc Ronick: Is Matt: three
minutes okay?

657
00:34:42,159 --> 00:34:44,469
Marc Ronick: That's fine.
Matt: Very good.

658
00:34:44,469 --> 00:34:48,592
So all the
stuff that has been
covered so far, like

659
00:34:48,592 --> 00:34:51,913
particularly Ralph's
stuff,
very on point about how the

660
00:34:51,913 --> 00:34:53,578
nature of podcasting has

changed.

661
00:34:53,578 --> 00:34:57,101
But if you're in podcasting for
long enough, and
I don't feel

662
00:34:57,101 --> 00:34:59,698
like I have, but I've observed
it for long
enough.

663
00:34:59,698 --> 00:35:02,674
What you realize is that the
podcaster's journey doesn't


664
00:35:02,682 --> 00:35:06,620
vary all that much.
At the very beginning, they seek

665
00:35:06,620 --> 00:35:10,191
out
information, they get
enough information to begin,

666
00:35:10,191 --> 00:35:14,410
then they
seek to optimize,
and they end up in places like

667
00:35:14,410 --> 00:35:17,964
this, a place
with experienced
community of podcasters to find

668
00:35:17,964 --> 00:35:20,960
out more
information, then
they find that information that

669
00:35:20,960 --> 00:35:24,320
they need, they
start trying
stuff, and I think if they do

670
00:35:24,320 --> 00:35:26,647
the right things,
they do what
Sid is talking about.

671
00:35:26,647 --> 00:35:29,086
They test, they iterate,
they
reflect.

672
00:35:29,086 --> 00:35:30,710
Did it work?
No.

673
00:35:31,100 --> 00:35:32,495
Toss it.
Try something new.


674
00:35:32,503 --> 00:35:35,845
Getting on that treadmill is
really important, but the thing

675
00:35:35,845 --> 00:35:40,186
we need to recognize is that
the industry has been constantly

676
00:35:40,186 --> 00:35:45,490

shifting for a very long time,
but the new podcaster experience

677
00:35:45,490 --> 00:35:49,696

doesn't change, because they
do come in with the builder and

678
00:35:49,696 --> 00:35:52,942
they will come mentality.
They do look for the best

679
00:35:52,942 --> 00:35:54,632
quality
microphone to start
with.

680
00:35:54,632 --> 00:35:57,970
They do wonder why no one's

listening, because I put it on

681
00:35:58,030 --> 00:36:00,452
all the platforms.
This is an
experience that I

682
00:36:00,452 --> 00:36:04,449
don't think anybody disagrees
with when they
come in as a

683
00:36:04,449 --> 00:36:07,688
podcaster, brand new and fresh.
This is where,
and

684
00:36:07,688 --> 00:36:10,872
controversial opinion incoming,
where I think
podcasting, if

685
00:36:10,872 --> 00:36:14,675
it was more gate kept, if there
was a gatekeeping
aspect to

686
00:36:14,675 --> 00:36:18,712
this, where you had to get a
podcast license to be able
to

687
00:36:18,712 --> 00:36:22,406
start creating your podcast,
then we might be able to fix


688
00:36:22,414 --> 00:36:25,325
this problem, but no matter how
many consultants we get, no


689
00:36:25,333 --> 00:36:28,700
matter how many intro to
podcasting courses, they're all

690
00:36:28,700 --> 00:36:32,984
layered with opinions, they're
layered with experiences across

691
00:36:32,984 --> 00:36:37,319
25 years.
Who knows how long that time has

692
00:36:37,319 --> 00:36:39,440
been going on?

It's constantly changing and

693
00:36:39,470 --> 00:36:41,689
shifting.
The only thing that
you can

694
00:36:41,689 --> 00:36:45,016
rely on explicit is your own
experience, that internal


695
00:36:45,024 --> 00:36:48,856
struggle that you have, the way
that you cope with it, and


696
00:36:48,864 --> 00:36:51,259
informing that struggle with the
experiences of others.

697
00:36:51,259 --> 00:36:54,580
So, the
thing that really
triggered me there, Ralph, was

698
00:36:54,580 --> 00:36:57,600
you saying
that podcasting has
changed, build it and they will

699
00:36:57,600 --> 00:36:59,100
come.

It's not that easy anymore.

700
00:36:59,100 --> 00:37:03,494
It hasn't been that easy since
2014
I think people never see

701
00:37:03,494 --> 00:37:05,460
that, though.
Once they become from a
go

702
00:37:05,460 --> 00:37:09,825
from a listener to a podcaster,
that journey is huge,
and the

703
00:37:09,825 --> 00:37:12,960
misconceptions are even bigger.
But how we address that


704
00:37:12,968 --> 00:37:15,810
problem, I don't know.
I think the best place to start

705
00:37:15,810 --> 00:37:19,435
is a
show like this, where you
hear all of the great opinions,

706
00:37:19,435 --> 00:37:22,448
and
just really think about
yourself and do what Sid's

707
00:37:22,448 --> 00:37:25,987
doing.
Marc Ronick: That was my there


708
00:37:25,995 --> 00:37:27,499
goes the timer, Matt.
Thank you.

709
00:37:27,649 --> 00:37:31,759
Well done, I appreciate that.

And yeah, and I agree that that

710
00:37:31,819 --> 00:37:34,429
did make me pause too.
And with
all due respect,

711
00:37:34,429 --> 00:37:37,888
Ralph, yeah, I mean, look, I've
been doing this
for over 20

712
00:37:37,888 --> 00:37:41,239
years, and I agree with you.
I mean, even the first
10

713
00:37:41,239 --> 00:37:44,769
years were not easy, they were
easier, maybe than they are


714
00:37:44,777 --> 00:37:48,135
today, but those first 10 years
weren't as easy either, because

715
00:37:48,135 --> 00:37:50,919
those first 10 years we were
just trying to convince people


716
00:37:50,927 --> 00:37:55,881
of what a podcast even is, like
no clue what a podcast is, you


717
00:37:55,889 --> 00:37:59,026
know, now we're trying to define
podcasts these days, back then


718
00:37:59,034 --> 00:38:03,131
people would look at me like I
was crazy when I would say I


719
00:38:03,139 --> 00:38:06,644
have a podcast, right?
So it's, it was easier, yes, but

720
00:38:06,644 --> 00:38:10,855
I don't
want people to think
that there was a point where it

721
00:38:10,855 --> 00:38:14,126
was super
easy to do, it just
wasn't, Matt: and we're all

722
00:38:14,126 --> 00:38:15,681
figuring it
out.
I think the best way to think

723
00:38:15,681 --> 00:38:19,947
about it for yourselves is
a
video game overhead map as a fog

724
00:38:19,947 --> 00:38:23,210
of war, and the more you

discover, the more there's

725
00:38:23,420 --> 00:38:27,738
things to consider, and no one's

got it 100% figured out.

726
00:38:27,738 --> 00:38:31,163
They just look successful from
the
outside, but if you got on

727
00:38:31,163 --> 00:38:35,120
the inside of the Rogans and the

Bartletts and all of this kind

728
00:38:35,120 --> 00:38:37,520
of thing, you'd find out a whole

lot more, much quicker.

729
00:38:38,330 --> 00:38:39,800
Ralph Estep Jr.: So, Matt,

what's the hardest part here?

730
00:38:39,920 --> 00:38:42,100
Then, Matt, let's talk about

that, because that's where

731
00:38:42,160 --> 00:38:43,693
you're going.
Is what's the
hardest part?

732
00:38:43,693 --> 00:38:46,440
If it's always been hard, which
I disagree
with, by the way, I

733
00:38:46,440 --> 00:38:49,348
think it's harder now than it's
ever been,
because there's

734
00:38:49,348 --> 00:38:50,839
more competition than there's
ever been.

735
00:38:50,839 --> 00:38:53,284
But what
do you think the
hardest part of growing a

736
00:38:53,284 --> 00:38:56,404
podcast is now?
Matt: I think the hardest part


737
00:38:56,412 --> 00:38:59,751
is people realizing it's their
own personal journey and not an

738
00:38:59,751 --> 00:39:01,258
extrinsic one.
There you go.

739
00:39:01,258 --> 00:39:04,781
Add that to the board.
The so much
of what podcasters

740
00:39:04,781 --> 00:39:09,293
do when they come into the space
is look for
the external

741
00:39:09,293 --> 00:39:12,533
things, because the more they
discover, the more
that they

742
00:39:12,533 --> 00:39:16,099
don't know, the more that they
rely on outside
sources that

743
00:39:16,099 --> 00:39:19,196
they don't understand yet to
tell them what
they need to

744
00:39:19,196 --> 00:39:21,381
do.
This is like a this is a pet

745
00:39:21,381 --> 00:39:22,468
theory that I'm
putting
together.

746
00:39:22,468 --> 00:39:24,163
I call it podcaster knowledge
divergence.


747
00:39:24,171 --> 00:39:28,867
There has to be a point in time
where the podcaster becomes


748
00:39:28,875 --> 00:39:32,804
empowered enough to trust their
own instincts to inform


749
00:39:32,812 --> 00:39:36,811
themselves, so that they can
answer their own questions, and

750
00:39:36,811 --> 00:39:40,664
then seek and set all these
milestones of growth that we're

751
00:39:40,664 --> 00:39:44,187
talking about, I'm not going to
be able to give you the answer


752
00:39:44,195 --> 00:39:47,391
of what's the hardest thing to
do, because anything that I say

753
00:39:47,391 --> 00:39:51,465
will be the hardest for me is
going to be easy for someone


754
00:39:51,473 --> 00:39:54,073
else, guaranteed.
SEO and marketing, not my bag,

755
00:39:54,073 --> 00:39:58,341
but
someone else here is going
to say, oh man, easiest thing in

756
00:39:58,341 --> 00:40:01,847

the world, I've got a.
Website that gets 3000 hits per

757
00:40:01,847 --> 00:40:05,363
day, but
at the same time they
might struggle with their audio

758
00:40:05,363 --> 00:40:08,837
quality, but I'm in here going,
well, it's super easy, you just

759
00:40:08,837 --> 00:40:11,741
drop 400 bucks on an AI
algorithmic machine learning


760
00:40:11,749 --> 00:40:15,053
plugin, and that just dulls that
sucker right up.

761
00:40:15,053 --> 00:40:18,211
I think it's
all about the
intrinsic internal experience.

762
00:40:18,211 --> 00:40:23,043
The hardest thing is
trusting
yourself when you learn enough

763
00:40:23,043 --> 00:40:26,939
about podcasting to
inform
your own experience, and that

764
00:40:26,939 --> 00:40:30,139
feeling of saturation and

competition, as opposed to

765
00:40:30,229 --> 00:40:33,259
collaboration, which I think is
what it should be, that feeling

766
00:40:33,319 --> 00:40:35,514
like you're in an overwhelming

space.

767
00:40:35,514 --> 00:40:40,583
I think we can see everybody's
desks in that study
room, but

768
00:40:40,583 --> 00:40:44,491
if we just focus on our own
desk, we're going to
pass the

769
00:40:44,491 --> 00:40:47,514
test, and what we get as a score
isn't going to
matter.

770
00:40:47,514 --> 00:40:51,087
There is a finite number of
resources, eyes, hours in the


771
00:40:51,095 --> 00:40:54,689
day in the universe, but
ultimately it's your own


772
00:40:54,697 --> 00:40:57,095
journey.
Now, that isn't to dismiss that

773
00:40:57,095 --> 00:41:00,137
there's external
things as
part of this that will help

774
00:41:00,137 --> 00:41:03,719
inform your internal
growth,
and this is why I think Sid is

775
00:41:03,719 --> 00:41:06,689
the secret winner of this

episode, because he's talked

776
00:41:06,719 --> 00:41:09,175
about getting on the hamster

wheel and trying stuff.

777
00:41:09,175 --> 00:41:11,969
The key about succeeding in
podcasting
today, and the

778
00:41:11,969 --> 00:41:16,107
hardest thing that people find
in podcasting
itself, but the

779
00:41:16,107 --> 00:41:19,121
hardest thing is getting
comfortable with that
testing

780
00:41:19,121 --> 00:41:22,985
and iteration process, and more
importantly, setting
the goals

781
00:41:22,985 --> 00:41:27,217
for yourself to find the results
you want, and then
not

782
00:41:27,217 --> 00:41:30,534
necessarily settling, because
Mark, Mark asked us
earlier,

783
00:41:30,534 --> 00:41:33,187
When is the when?
When are we done?

784
00:41:33,187 --> 00:41:37,423
We're never done,
but we can
be happy with our process and

785
00:41:37,423 --> 00:41:42,075
seek the flourishing
we want
from our podcast, when we have

786
00:41:42,075 --> 00:41:45,099
that system and process
in
place to inform our intrinsic

787
00:41:45,129 --> 00:41:49,389
value, now all of that super

controversial, super

788
00:41:49,449 --> 00:41:52,929
philosophical, hard to justify

in whatever 20 minutes I've

789
00:41:53,049 --> 00:41:57,639
taken of this episode, and

people won't like it, they don't

790
00:41:57,669 --> 00:42:00,249
like to hear it, and I'm not

saying that anybody here is

791
00:42:00,369 --> 00:42:02,969
gonna come at me for it, and

Ralph, definitely not coming at

792
00:42:03,059 --> 00:42:06,209
you for your opinion on that

one, because everyone's opinion

793
00:42:06,209 --> 00:42:07,795
is valid.
It's why the most
common

794
00:42:07,795 --> 00:42:11,045
answer to anything in podcasting
is still it depends,
and

795
00:42:11,045 --> 00:42:15,179
forever we're trying to reduce
that down to something
closer

796
00:42:15,179 --> 00:42:19,211
to maybe of these three things.
There is still so much


797
00:42:19,219 --> 00:42:22,519
unknown, and so many car paths
we can carve for ourselves.

798
00:42:22,519 --> 00:42:25,809
I
think that's going to change
in the next five years, where


799
00:42:25,817 --> 00:42:27,640
there'll be more opportunities
to become more.

800
00:42:27,640 --> 00:42:30,316
I think the
biggest problem is
trying to define podcasting at

801
00:42:30,316 --> 00:42:32,749
the very
beginning, but it's
all journey for ourselves.

802
00:42:33,620 --> 00:42:38,252
Dan: Camera, stay with me now.
Ralph Estep Jr.: Come back to me

803
00:42:38,252 --> 00:42:40,280

live.
Can you see open those eyes?

804
00:42:40,520 --> 00:42:45,958
Dan: Yeah, right now, Marc
Ronick: now we're playing
that

805
00:42:45,958 --> 00:42:48,986
because we noticed someone on
camera was dozing a little


806
00:42:48,994 --> 00:42:53,791
bit, bc BC Babbles: gotta keep
that
three minute mark, man,

807
00:42:53,791 --> 00:43:01,380
gotta keep I'm only human in the

Western Hemisphere system,

808
00:43:02,819 --> 00:43:04,508
Matt: it's all good.
Everything
I just said, if

809
00:43:04,508 --> 00:43:06,854
people have just like put their
phone down and
gone to make a

810
00:43:06,854 --> 00:43:08,372
coffee and come back, absolutely
fine.

811
00:43:08,372 --> 00:43:12,848
This is
not a, this is a like
way many years down the path

812
00:43:12,848 --> 00:43:16,319
kind of I
have to sit down and
get comfortable and listen to


813
00:43:16,327 --> 00:43:18,893
something like that to be able
to pass what I was saying.

814
00:43:18,893 --> 00:43:20,339
It
might even only make sense
to me.

815
00:43:20,969 --> 00:43:22,033
Marc Ronick: Before you chime

in, Ralph.

816
00:43:22,033 --> 00:43:24,749
I just wanted to say I don't
think that it was
necessarily

817
00:43:24,749 --> 00:43:26,548
you, Matt, that BC was falling
asleep.

818
00:43:26,548 --> 00:43:30,399
It happens
on occasion, that's
why we have a jingle for BC.

819
00:43:30,399 --> 00:43:34,519
Let me blame
somebody, Mark.
Dang, all right, go ahead,

820
00:43:34,519 --> 00:43:36,077
Ralph.
Ralph Estep Jr.: Matt, I just


821
00:43:36,085 --> 00:43:38,161
want to say I agree with you and
disagree with you at the same


822
00:43:38,169 --> 00:43:40,659
time, and we could spend an hour
talking about the philosophical

823
00:43:40,659 --> 00:43:44,161
parts of that, because one of
the things I think that a lot of

824
00:43:44,161 --> 00:43:47,079

new podcasters neglect is
finding a mentor and finding


825
00:43:47,087 --> 00:43:50,763
someone to help them to get past
the stuff that there are things

826
00:43:50,763 --> 00:43:53,105
that you can't just find on
your own journey.

827
00:43:53,105 --> 00:43:56,721
I'm the definition
of that.
When I first started out, what I

828
00:43:56,721 --> 00:43:59,769
should have done
first was go
and hire a speaking coach, I

829
00:43:59,769 --> 00:44:02,222
should have went and
hired
somebody to help me with my

830
00:44:02,222 --> 00:44:04,129
tech.
I should have went and
hired

831
00:44:04,129 --> 00:44:06,737
somebody, or found a group like
this, or mentored with


832
00:44:06,745 --> 00:44:09,827
somebody to help me build stuff,
because on my own journey I


833
00:44:09,835 --> 00:44:11,787
wasn't getting where I needed to
get.

834
00:44:11,787 --> 00:44:15,269
But I want to take it back,

because I think again, what is

835
00:44:15,329 --> 00:44:17,009
the hardest part of growing your

podcast?

836
00:44:17,009 --> 00:44:19,084
Is it getting discovered in the
first place?


837
00:44:19,092 --> 00:44:22,339
Is it getting people to stick
around, is it getting people


838
00:44:22,347 --> 00:44:24,967
listeners to share the show?
Like, for example, Mark sent me

839
00:44:24,967 --> 00:44:27,497
a message yesterday, said we
got to put this on our list to

840
00:44:27,497 --> 00:44:30,379
talk
about how can we get a
guest to share the show when

841
00:44:30,379 --> 00:44:32,715
they're on
the show.
What are those things that are

842
00:44:32,715 --> 00:44:34,795
the stress points for
you
right now?

843
00:44:34,795 --> 00:44:37,499
That's question one.
And question two, what are
you

844
00:44:37,499 --> 00:44:39,339
finding right now that's
actually working?

845
00:44:39,339 --> 00:44:42,453
Because what
I'd like to give
people today is some things that

846
00:44:42,453 --> 00:44:45,084
are actually
working, so that
if you tune in to watch this

847
00:44:45,084 --> 00:44:47,169
episode or listen
to this
episode, you can say, "Oh,

848
00:44:47,169 --> 00:44:49,149
that's some great idea, let
me
try these couple things out.

849
00:44:49,870 --> 00:44:52,570
Marc Ronick: Yeah, I think that
that's a great place.

850
00:44:52,570 --> 00:44:54,403
Where are things working for
you?

851
00:44:54,403 --> 00:44:58,089
I think,
and that's a great
way to wrap up this episode

852
00:44:58,089 --> 00:45:00,241
today, is take a
few minutes
to really.

853
00:45:00,241 --> 00:45:04,198
Find those things, share those
things
that are working for

854
00:45:04,198 --> 00:45:07,538
us, and yeah, we'll share some
of mine
in a moment, but I

855
00:45:07,538 --> 00:45:09,470
want to hear from others as
well.

856
00:45:09,470 --> 00:45:12,792
Think about
your answer.
I know Tide wants to chime in

857
00:45:12,792 --> 00:45:15,660
too, and I think it
was around
what we've just been discussing.

858
00:45:15,660 --> 00:45:18,280
So, Tide, go for it,
and if
you want to share anything

859
00:45:18,280 --> 00:45:21,788
that's been working for
you as
far as growth or success with

860
00:45:21,788 --> 00:45:24,654
your show, please share.
Go
for Knikki: it.

861
00:45:24,654 --> 00:45:25,332
Sure.
Thank you.

862
00:45:25,332 --> 00:45:29,750
I
was gonna say that I agreed
with Sambaza in the chat when he

863
00:45:29,750 --> 00:45:34,416

said, you know, if I continue
doing sort of this, the same ish

864
00:45:34,416 --> 00:45:38,672

emphasis on the ish, the same
ish thing, you know, might that

865
00:45:38,672 --> 00:45:43,180
lead me to my right audience
eventually, and I think that is

866
00:45:43,180 --> 00:45:46,642
a fair point to make, because
if you're jumping around, which

867
00:45:46,642 --> 00:45:50,866
is
what a lot of people do,
they put out a couple episodes,

868
00:45:50,866 --> 00:45:53,945
it
doesn't stick, then they
try something new, and then they

869
00:45:53,945 --> 00:45:56,710
put
out a couple episodes, and
it doesn't stick, and then it


870
00:45:56,718 --> 00:45:59,674
doesn't, and then they keep
doing that, and they're on that

871
00:45:59,674 --> 00:46:01,816
hamster wheel constantly, I
know we've said the hamster

872
00:46:01,816 --> 00:46:04,197
wheel a
couple times today,
but they're on that hamster

873
00:46:04,197 --> 00:46:07,626
wheel constantly
jumping
around trying to figure out what

874
00:46:07,626 --> 00:46:12,750
sticks, and the most I
would
say prominent indicator of

875
00:46:12,870 --> 00:46:15,472
failure is that mentality.
It's
let me throw paint

876
00:46:15,472 --> 00:46:18,840
against the wall, let me see
what sticks,
and then just

877
00:46:18,840 --> 00:46:22,437
kind of figure it out from
there, but that is such
a poor

878
00:46:22,437 --> 00:46:25,466
mentality.
If I did that in any aspect of

879
00:46:25,466 --> 00:46:29,135
my life,
whether it's teaching
or something else, and I said,


880
00:46:29,143 --> 00:46:31,898
"Well, let me just try a bunch
of stuff and see, see what


881
00:46:31,906 --> 00:46:33,809
sticks that, and I did that
continually.

882
00:46:33,809 --> 00:46:37,466
How much success
does anybody
think that I would actually, or

883
00:46:37,466 --> 00:46:40,045
anyone else, would
have in
this room if that's what they

884
00:46:40,045 --> 00:46:43,207
did throughout their life,
you
have to have sometimes, and I'm

885
00:46:43,207 --> 00:46:46,528
saying, emphasizing
sometimes,
sometimes you have to have a

886
00:46:46,528 --> 00:46:49,030
singular focus, and
you're
going to make tweaks and

887
00:46:49,030 --> 00:46:52,358
modifications along the way.
Of
course, as you get smarter,

888
00:46:52,358 --> 00:46:55,570
more data comes in, more insight

comes in, more understanding,

889
00:46:56,020 --> 00:46:59,050
more wisdom, more experience.

All of that is going to come,

890
00:46:59,410 --> 00:47:02,160
and you're going to develop and
change and grow, and you know,

891
00:47:02,490 --> 00:47:06,600
evolve, but if you're sticking

with the thing that feels right

892
00:47:07,170 --> 00:47:09,866
to you, you can feel the success

coming.

893
00:47:09,866 --> 00:47:13,290
So, like with you, Mark, I'll
use you as an example.

894
00:47:13,290 --> 00:47:16,512
You
could feel that calling
your show the podcasting morning

895
00:47:16,512 --> 00:47:18,600
chat
wasn't the right move
anymore.

896
00:47:18,750 --> 00:47:21,380
There was a shift, something

happened, you could feel it, and

897
00:47:21,440 --> 00:47:23,990
you knew probably couldn't

explain it, because it wasn't

898
00:47:24,050 --> 00:47:26,960
something necessarily

measurable, but you could feel

899
00:47:27,620 --> 00:47:31,190
that calling your podcast the

Podcasting Morning Show was the

900
00:47:31,340 --> 00:47:34,280
right move, and you knew

internally that it was the right

901
00:47:34,340 --> 00:47:37,370
decision, no matter what anybody

else said, no matter anything

902
00:47:37,400 --> 00:47:40,840
else, and then you also knew

another thing, you also knew

903
00:47:41,050 --> 00:47:45,010
that moving your show to eight

8am was going to have a better

904
00:47:45,730 --> 00:47:48,190
result for you in different

ways, different, and you could

905
00:47:48,310 --> 00:47:51,169
feel that you knew somehow, some

way, intuitively.

906
00:47:51,169 --> 00:47:54,330
Now, some of it may have been
algorithmic and
analytical,

907
00:47:54,330 --> 00:47:57,264
and through conversations, all
that, that's
that's all fine

908
00:47:57,264 --> 00:47:59,883
and dandy, that's part of the
process, but
there was

909
00:47:59,883 --> 00:48:02,793
something innate in you that
realized if I change my


910
00:48:02,801 --> 00:48:07,398
podcast to 8am I can feel the
success knocking on my door, I


911
00:48:07,406 --> 00:48:11,005
can feel the people, the guests,
the opportunities, the all the


912
00:48:11,013 --> 00:48:13,090
stuff that's going to come with
it.

913
00:48:13,090 --> 00:48:16,789
I know it's there, and
that's
what I think Sambaza was trying

914
00:48:16,789 --> 00:48:20,218
to get at with his
comment, is
that if I can feel that I'm

915
00:48:20,218 --> 00:48:23,579
headed in the right
direction,
and I know intuitively that that

916
00:48:23,579 --> 00:48:27,712
success is
going to come if I
keep trudging along and I keep

917
00:48:27,712 --> 00:48:30,131
putting this
stuff out there.
I know it's going to come

918
00:48:30,131 --> 00:48:31,924
eventually.
Then I
think you should stick

919
00:48:31,924 --> 00:48:34,670
with that, because changing it
up and
trying new things and

920
00:48:34,670 --> 00:48:38,099
all that is wonderful, and you
have to do
that 1,000,000,000%

921
00:48:38,099 --> 00:48:42,948
But there is a level of success
that come
from focus,

922
00:48:42,948 --> 00:48:46,048
focusing, concentrating on what
you want
to do, rather than

923
00:48:46,048 --> 00:48:48,400
jumping around like some ADHD
lunatic.

924
00:48:49,090 --> 00:48:50,637
Marc Ronick: Well said, Tide.

Thank you.

925
00:48:50,637 --> 00:48:53,415
And, yeah, I think, look, if
we're talking about
patience,

926
00:48:53,415 --> 00:48:56,968
and if that was what Sambaza was
ultimately getting
at, not

927
00:48:56,968 --> 00:49:00,526
being super specific to being
patient for an algorithm,
but

928
00:49:00,526 --> 00:49:04,104
just being patient with the
systems, with the strategies,


929
00:49:04,112 --> 00:49:08,272
with the approach.
Yes, I say yes, we've got to be

930
00:49:08,272 --> 00:49:10,560
patient.

Look, it took us four years to

931
00:49:10,680 --> 00:49:13,290
really see significant growth

with the podcasting morning

932
00:49:13,410 --> 00:49:15,594
show, and I'm not blaming

anybody, right?

933
00:49:15,594 --> 00:49:19,275
Like, I think that there were
some instances
that I blame

934
00:49:19,275 --> 00:49:22,768
myself for that, right, that it
took up to four
years to start

935
00:49:22,768 --> 00:49:26,045
seeing real growth, but I was
patient, and
yeah, I think

936
00:49:26,045 --> 00:49:29,258
that there is something to be
said about
intuition, and when

937
00:49:29,258 --> 00:49:34,412
you just feel like this is the
right move
and it's nagging at

938
00:49:34,412 --> 00:49:36,359
you, I think it's worth
exploring.

939
00:49:36,359 --> 00:49:40,552
So I'm
with you there, and by
the way, I did want to quickly

940
00:49:40,552 --> 00:49:44,490
share what
Jessica shared in
the chat about her strategy.

941
00:49:44,490 --> 00:49:48,184
She said, "My
strategy is to
create a bridge between

942
00:49:48,184 --> 00:49:51,250
literature and human
healing.
I want to be a reflective

943
00:49:51,250 --> 00:49:54,880
companion for as long
as my
heart is called to be.

944
00:49:55,780 --> 00:49:58,570
Personal development and

character elevation, in

945
00:49:58,630 --> 00:50:02,820
parentheses it says, because.

There is duality in connection

946
00:50:03,360 --> 00:50:06,540
lives in the purpose of just

walking with each other or

947
00:50:06,660 --> 00:50:08,820
walking each other home, so

yeah, I love that.

948
00:50:08,820 --> 00:50:10,230
I think that's beautiful,
Jessica.

949
00:50:10,230 --> 00:50:12,330
Thank
you so much for sharing
that.

950
00:50:12,870 --> 00:50:15,690
Yeah, and Dr, you've been

waiting a long time, did you

951
00:50:15,690 --> 00:50:19,315
want to chime in?
DR: Yeah, so we all have kind of

952
00:50:19,315 --> 00:50:24,045

agreed that you go for a goal,
and if it's not working, you


953
00:50:24,053 --> 00:50:28,457
pivot with the method that
you're, you're trying to do, but

954
00:50:28,457 --> 00:50:33,320

the question is, How long do
you give it before you realize

955
00:50:33,320 --> 00:50:37,294
time
to change things up?
Marc Ronick: Yeah, that's a


956
00:50:37,302 --> 00:50:40,113
fantastic question, right?
Like, some people I'm sure would

957
00:50:40,113 --> 00:50:43,299
have
given up if they were on
my path with the podcasting

958
00:50:43,299 --> 00:50:45,096
morning
show.
They probably would have given

959
00:50:45,096 --> 00:50:46,989
up a year or two into it,

right?

960
00:50:47,050 --> 00:50:49,813
DR: I think a lot depends on

your cadence.

961
00:50:49,813 --> 00:50:53,450
Are you doing a show every day?
Are you doing a
show once a

962
00:50:53,450 --> 00:50:55,712
week?
Are you doing a show once a

963
00:50:55,712 --> 00:50:58,336
month?
I think a
lot that has to

964
00:50:58,336 --> 00:51:00,928
factor in.
Marc Ronick: Yeah, I agree with

965
00:51:00,928 --> 00:51:01,893
you.
I agree with you.

966
00:51:01,893 --> 00:51:04,740
BC, did you want to chime in?
BC Babbles: Yeah, and I think


967
00:51:04,748 --> 00:51:07,825
for me, two things that have
helped my growth, and I got two

968
00:51:07,825 --> 00:51:10,350
shows, one that I've been
working on for years, one that


969
00:51:10,358 --> 00:51:13,344
I've been working on only since
September, and I hate to say it,

970
00:51:13,344 --> 00:51:16,576

but the one since September is
doing better, and I think part


971
00:51:16,584 --> 00:51:21,478
of that is because one, I found
a capacity to be a little not


972
00:51:21,486 --> 00:51:25,505
super PC, I talk about, you
know, job seeker chaos and


973
00:51:25,513 --> 00:51:29,075
whatnot, and I think people, you
know, are going to come, come to

974
00:51:29,075 --> 00:51:31,694

my show and say, "Oh, he'll
talk about my narcissistic boss,

975
00:51:31,694 --> 00:51:35,588
love
that, let's delve in.
Other part of it is also, it's I

976
00:51:35,588 --> 00:51:39,148
never just
post the episode on
distribution, it's a three-step

977
00:51:39,148 --> 00:51:42,370
hit, it's on Substack, so it's
immediately a blog post, so


978
00:51:42,378 --> 00:51:44,029
there's SEO there for search
engines.

979
00:51:44,029 --> 00:51:47,080
It's going to Apple and

Spotify, but also it's

980
00:51:47,200 --> 00:51:52,060
immediately shared to socials

every single episode - boom,

981
00:51:52,150 --> 00:51:54,246
boom, boom - three-step hit in

multiple spots.

982
00:51:54,246 --> 00:51:57,670
And I think giving every single
episode that
opportunity to

983
00:51:57,670 --> 00:52:01,606
shine in as many spots as
possible every single
time has

984
00:52:01,606 --> 00:52:05,496
helped me see the better numbers
with shorter term
show than my

985
00:52:05,496 --> 00:52:08,913
long term years show, so it's
about now I gotta
swap that

986
00:52:08,913 --> 00:52:10,230
around and make it work for
both.

987
00:52:11,040 --> 00:52:13,441
Marc Ronick: Yeah, and it

doesn't surprise me that your

988
00:52:13,498 --> 00:52:16,700
more recent show is the one

that's doing better, because

989
00:52:16,757 --> 00:52:20,073
you've had all the experience

from the first show to learn

990
00:52:20,130 --> 00:52:22,418
from, whether you knew it or

not, right?

991
00:52:22,418 --> 00:52:25,552
Like, you just, you had a
different approach toward
this

992
00:52:25,552 --> 00:52:28,745
second show than you did,
probably when you first started

993
00:52:28,745 --> 00:52:31,734
that first show.
So that makes a lot of sense.

994
00:52:31,734 --> 00:52:34,387
I see that kind of
thing
happen all the time.

995
00:52:34,387 --> 00:52:36,589
Yeah.
And then, so, yeah, just to go


996
00:52:36,597 --> 00:52:39,674
back to what's working for the
podcasting morning show lately,

997
00:52:39,674 --> 00:52:43,416
I think it is that consistency
that I've already touched on,


998
00:52:43,424 --> 00:52:47,146
and it's also trying those new
things right, like we've added a

999
00:52:47,146 --> 00:52:50,875

bunch of jingles, and it's not
to say that those jingles is


1000
00:52:50,883 --> 00:52:53,939
what's growing my audience, but
it's adding something, it's


1001
00:52:53,947 --> 00:52:57,308
adding character to the show,
it's giving people another way


1002
00:52:57,316 --> 00:53:01,368
to connect with us, not the only
way, but another way to connect

1003
00:53:01,368 --> 00:53:03,962
with us, right.
We've started bringing back more

1004
00:53:03,962 --> 00:53:07,362
interviews,
we used to do
interviews for a short period of

1005
00:53:07,362 --> 00:53:10,756
time, a couple
years ago, and
then I got away from it.

1006
00:53:10,756 --> 00:53:13,702
Ralph has encouraged me
to
let's bring more interviews

1007
00:53:13,759 --> 00:53:16,846
back, and they are working

beautifully and helping our

1008
00:53:16,903 --> 00:53:20,448
growth a lot, not just with our
audience, but also with making

1009
00:53:20,505 --> 00:53:21,901
connections within the industry.



1010
00:53:21,909 --> 00:53:25,795
That's taking us a long way,
because now those people are


1011
00:53:25,803 --> 00:53:27,190
starting.
I'm seeing it.

1012
00:53:27,190 --> 00:53:30,339
They're starting to recommend
our show,
and they're starting

1013
00:53:30,339 --> 00:53:33,119
to come back and listen to our
show,
right?

1014
00:53:33,119 --> 00:53:36,259
So I'm making those kinds of
steps, and I'm being as


1015
00:53:36,267 --> 00:53:38,607
patient as I can.
Sure, behind the scenes,

1016
00:53:38,607 --> 00:53:42,243
sometimes I'm
banging my head
against the wall because I want

1017
00:53:42,243 --> 00:53:44,787
something to
happen, right?
But it does happen.

1018
00:53:44,787 --> 00:53:48,509
It's just. it's not
usually
that viral hit that's making the

1019
00:53:48,509 --> 00:53:50,705
difference.
It's the
slow growth that

1020
00:53:50,705 --> 00:53:53,182
we're impatient with that's
actually making the


1021
00:53:53,190 --> 00:53:55,487
difference.
So, yeah, it is sticking with

1022
00:53:55,487 --> 00:53:57,454
it.
And, Dr. To
your point, I

1023
00:53:57,454 --> 00:54:00,671
don't know that there's a magic
answer to when
you know, when

1024
00:54:00,671 --> 00:54:03,441
do we say when is it enough, or
when do we?

1025
00:54:03,441 --> 00:54:05,519
How
much time do we put into
something?

1026
00:54:05,519 --> 00:54:08,400
I don't know.
It all
depends, because some

1027
00:54:08,400 --> 00:54:10,647
audiences might react quicker
than others.


1028
00:54:10,655 --> 00:54:13,822
Some strategies may never work,
but it just takes time.

1029
00:54:13,822 --> 00:54:16,489
You got
to give things a few
months, at least.

1030
00:54:16,489 --> 00:54:20,172
I think, generally
speaking,
you got to take a few months to

1031
00:54:20,172 --> 00:54:23,244
see if something's
actually
going to take really cool

1032
00:54:23,244 --> 00:54:25,054
conversation today,
everybody.
Thank you.

1033
00:54:25,054 --> 00:54:29,295
And I know that, as we tend to
do here, we
go in different

1034
00:54:29,295 --> 00:54:32,570
directions, even after we ask a
question, we tend
to stray a

1035
00:54:32,570 --> 00:54:34,852
little bit.
Good job, team, in bringing us

1036
00:54:34,852 --> 00:54:37,778
back to
some of these
questions and making sure that

1037
00:54:37,778 --> 00:54:40,548
we answer them.

So, I hope that we served you,

1038
00:54:40,605 --> 00:54:44,150
our audience member today, and

if you want to chime in, by all

1039
00:54:44,207 --> 00:54:47,237
means, reach out to us at

Podcasting Morning show.com

1040
00:54:47,295 --> 00:54:50,668
There's lots of ways that you

can chime in and be a part of

1041
00:54:50,725 --> 00:54:53,533
this conversation too.
And a
reminder that you can

1042
00:54:53,533 --> 00:54:57,110
come back tomorrow, because we
do this
every Monday through

1043
00:54:57,110 --> 00:55:00,359
Friday, seven or 8am Eastern
time, and
you can find out how

1044
00:55:00,359 --> 00:55:02,947
at Podcasting Morning show.com

Slash, join us.

1045
00:55:02,947 --> 00:55:06,043
So, until tomorrow, make it a
great day,
everybody.

1046
00:55:06,043 --> 00:55:07,020
Take care.
Bye.