354 - How To Get More From Spotify for Creators With Chris Stone

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Good morning podcasting, morning
chat.

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It's Tuesday, August 12th, 2025,
and today we're talking to Chris

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Stone about Spotify.
I never thought I'd say this,

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but prepare to be amazed at some
of the little known features

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that'll help you market your
podcast.

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This is going to be one of those
get out your notebook kind of

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shows.
So if you're listening on

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Clubhouse, hit the share button
on the left hand side of the

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screen and share it.
However, Clubhouse lets you.

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And if you're listening via
podcast, please share this

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episode with a fellow podcaster.
And now give us about 30 seconds

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and we'll get things rolling.
Thanks for being here.

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All right, Good morning,
everybody.

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So, no, Mark has not had a sex
change.

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This is Dr. Fey.
It's not Mark Ronick.

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Mark is off doing his yearly
thing that he does every year

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for his friend.
It's a camp for kids.

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And he is.
I think I can't counselor.

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I think that's what's going on
anyway.

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So he has left kind of the keys
to the joint to the inmates.

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And I thought this was a great
opportunity to interview someone

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who I've been reading his
newsletter for a long time.

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My guest today knows podcasting
inside and out and not just the

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shiny launch your show kind of
stuff, but the real behind the

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scenes kind of strategy that
gets people to actually listen.

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Chris Stone is also the founder
of the Podcast Crew.

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It's a new platform connecting
top tier podcast professionals

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with clients making stand out
audio and video content.

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He's executive producer of the
top podcast, I'm sorry, a top

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political show.
It's called the New Statesman.

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It's auk political show.
And he's also the brains behind

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my very favorite Substack
newsletter, podcast Strategy,

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where he dishes out highly
practical tips every single

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week.
He's been at it for a long

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enough, you know, to remember
when podcast, when Apple podcast

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was the only game in town.
And he's been helping creators

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adapt to and win on every
platform shift since.

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Chris, welcome to the show.
I really appreciate you doing

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this.
Hello, thank you so much for

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having me.
What a lovely introduction.

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It's true, but you know, I
subscribe to an enormous amount

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of news letters, as most of the
people on Clubhouse know, and

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there are very few.
I can count on one hand the

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amount that I actually pay for.
And you are at the top of the

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list, my friend, because your
podcast is titled with MY2

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Trigger Words podcast and the
strategy.

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So just some little background.
You have to realize something

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about Dr. You're one of her
boyfriends.

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OK, let's just know what it is
and your fawns.

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Over you like it's.
Going to have to make in about 5

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to 6 minutes from now.
It's sort of a healthy slash

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unhealthy relationship with
newsletters.

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So the fact that.
We really, Chris, this really

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isn't about you.
This is an intervention.

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We are OK.
So if she has to step out, it's

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not because that she has to make
eggs.

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She has to put herself together
because she in her eyes might be

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true.
Answer the door.

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There's chocolates and flowers
coming.

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I appreciate that.
So.

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You're very, you're very kind.
Well, absolutely.

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I just love, love, love your
podcast strategy and it kind of

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gives me St. cred.
And I think in one of your

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issues you quoted me and so I'm
very happy about that.

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So that is cool.
Added to my obsession with you.

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That's fine.
So you've been podcasting long

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enough to see platforms coming
go.

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What's the one change that still
makes you shake your head and

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think, I can't believe we're
doing this now?

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Well, I've actually been doing
it long enough that when I

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started, podcasting wasn't a
thing.

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And I studied TV production of
all things at university about

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20 something years ago.
And I can remember having

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conversations in my course at
the time, you know, about like

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the Internet and broadcasting
coming together and gosh, and

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you imagine, you know, And the
fact is that the thing that I've

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spent the last 10 or 15 years
doing just did not exist when I

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was studying.
So the big macro thing that

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always surprises me and I have
to pinch myself is that I

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actually get to make a living
out of this.

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And it's something that
genuinely was not a thing, did

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not exist.
The technology did not exist.

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And it does make me wonder, you
know, my kids, what, what are

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they going to be doing in 20
years time?

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What, That doesn't exist now?
You know, that's the sort of

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space that I'm in.
Right.

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So you know this piece that you
did on Spotify, it just kind of

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blew my socks off.
There was so many, so many

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Nuggets, so many great things to
take away.

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And admittedly, I am the one
when I get clients, I'm

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admittedly the one to steer them
away from Spotify because, you

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know, they kind of have a
reputation.

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Can you speak about that
reputation they have and maybe

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how they've come full circle?
At least that's what I got from

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your article.
Yes, that's so that's

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interesting.
So Spotify have had like an

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interesting kind of journey with
podcasting, haven't they?

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They were sort of late to the
game really.

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They were primarily a music
listening platform and

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definitely in the UK at least
the music listening platform of

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choice.
And then in the US you, you had

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others as well, Pandora and such
that did very well.

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But when I started making
podcasts, it was Apple podcasts

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all the way.
And in fact, you know, the

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podcast that I work on now
predates me significantly, at

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least in, in the, in the job
that I'm doing now.

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They started in 2013.
And if I look at the data from

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2013 to now, you know, for the
first like 7 years, maybe

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longer, maybe even up to, you
know, 2021, it's Apple Podcasts

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all the way and everything else
trailing behind.

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You know, significantly, like
for a long time, it was like 90%

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of the audience was on Apple
Podcasts.

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But increasingly that's
changing.

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And if I look at the data on the
podcasts that I manage now,

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we're behind the curve, right?
Because we were so heavy on

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Apple Podcasts.
But actually our listenership

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on, on Spotify has increased by
400% over the last, you know,

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what, five years or so to the
point now where it makes up a

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significant proportion of our
audience.

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Our The New Statesman podcast
audience is still predominantly

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on Apple Podcasts, but it won't
be long until Spotify overtakes

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it.
And if you look at the data that

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Edison have been pulling out in
their brilliant Infinite Dial

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reports, they have Spotify
actually as if I pull up the

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where's the US one.
They reckon the servers most

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often used to listen to
podcasts.

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In the US, 33% on YouTube, 26%
on Spotify and 14% on Apple

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Podcasts, 14%.
But in the UK that's 33% on

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Spotify, 20% on YouTube.
We have ABBC service called BBC

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Sounds that's on 16%.
And Apple Podcast is languishing

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way back on 10%.
So actually in the UK, Spotify,

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according to Edison, is the
preeminent podcast listening

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platform right now.
Well, so in the issue you

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mentioned that Gen.
Z is already in the listening

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mode on Spotify.
If you were to if you were

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starting a a like a brand new
show today, would you only

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design it for where your
audience hangs out or would you

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try to pull them somewhere new?
I think the brilliant thing

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about Open RSS is obviously that
you can distribute it everywhere

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and you can make it very easy
for people to access it wherever

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they prefer.
But you, you want to be looking

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at investing your time.
You've got limited time to be

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working on the kind of the
promotion for the show.

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So you want to be strategic
about where you deploy that time

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resource, right?
So previously, I would have

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spent most of my time focusing
on how do we make this perform

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really well on Apple Podcasts.
Now, if I was launching

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something new, I would be
thinking, how do I spend most of

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my time making sure that this
maximum, this, the reach on

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Spotify is maximized.
And then if I've got spare time

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around the edge, I might look at
Apple Podcasts.

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I wouldn't eliminate Apple
Podcasts altogether, you know,

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but in terms of where I would
spend most of my marketing

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energy, it would be on Spotify
now, I think.

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Great.
I want to also mention to

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everyone up on stage, if you
have a question, please go ahead

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and raise your hand or in this
case, it's raise your chili

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pepper.
They took their hands away from

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Clubhouse and now we have to do
a chili pepper instead.

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So raise your chili pepper.
Yes, exactly.

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There's a lot of new fancy tools
on Spotify.

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Which one is on the the hidden
gems?

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The one that's the one that
you're talking about.

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So one of the reasons that I
wrote the article that you were

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talking about was that, you
know, Spotify have released a

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lot of different options for
users to control how they

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promote their podcasts on the
platform, Much more so actually

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than Apple Podcasts, like Apple
Podcasts now, sorry to keep

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getting back to Apple Podcasts,
but that's kind of my reference.

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That's where I came from.
But Apple Podcasts like really

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is kind of curated by the Apple
team.

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And like, you have quite limited
options in terms of what you can

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actually control in terms of
your presence on the platform.

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Whereas with Spotify, they give
you a lot more options.

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I think you asked for like the
hidden gem now.

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I mean, I think there's I think
all the tools are useful.

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That's the ones that I like the
most and that I think probably

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lean into what podcasting is
best at are those that

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facilitate a sense of community.
So for me, my favorites are the

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fact that users can comment on
episodes on Spotify and that you

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can ask for direct feedback in
polls.

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And Spotify allows you to set a
poll under a bespoke poll, a

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specific poll under each
episode.

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So you're immediately giving
somebody something to do and to

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contribute as they listen or off
or after they listen.

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Right.
So let's break that down just a

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little bit because that has been
a bone of contention with me for

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a long time.
I do not understand why all

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hosting platforms do not have do
not give the ability for

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listeners to comment.
I could very well put a link in

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the show notes that leads to
some place on, you know,

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Captivate.
And in my case, it would be

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Captivate and there would be
something there for, you know,

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for people to chat.
That way they could have a

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really accurate count of
engagement, you know, at least a

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more accurate count of
engagement.

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So this has been a bone of
contention with me.

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And it kind of rubs me the one
way that Spotify by Nemesis is

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the one that has it.
But I'm going to deal with it.

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Have you tried a feature that
you thought, well, you know,

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this is this is useless, but
then later on it kind of

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surprised you a little bit?
I don't know about the

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second-half to that question,
but the one that I tried once

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and was like, I'm not doing that
again was video.

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This is where Spotify gets
interesting, and by interesting,

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I mean not very good.
We've been talking about video,

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haven't we, in the podcasting
community for the last couple of

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years.
It's the next big thing.

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Everybody's got to do video.
Some people don't like it, some

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people do like it.
Spotify have waded in and added

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video to that platform and have
worked quite hard to try and get

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people to upload video so that
their users can either listen or

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watch.
But there is massive red flag on

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Spotify video, which is that if
you upload a video version of

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your episode, so you distribute
via RSS, your audio version gets

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picked up by Spotify via RSS
with all of your dynamically

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inserted ads and you know
everything else.

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And then they say, oh, and you
can upload a video version of

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this and then your listeners can
choose to watch or listen.

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But if you upload the video,
then it overwrites the RSS.

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So when you upload a video, you
no longer serve your dynamically

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inserted ads and the audio
version gets completely

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forgotten.
If then a user toggles to listen

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instead of to watch, then what
they're listening to is the

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audio from that video.
So right now I do not upload

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video and I don't advise other
people to until or unless

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Spotify make moves to somehow
keep the RSS incorporated.

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I saw Nick's hand up.
Go ahead, Nick.

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00:14:32,720 --> 00:14:34,360
Hey.
Chris, good morning, welcome.

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00:14:34,680 --> 00:14:38,640
To our to our chaos.
So you mentioning that if you

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00:14:38,640 --> 00:14:42,320
upload the audio and then you go
Spotify and upload the video,

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00:14:42,320 --> 00:14:44,040
it's.
Yeah, you're overriding it.

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00:14:44,040 --> 00:14:48,040
What if someone is hosted on
Spotify specifically?

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Does that process actually
change?

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00:14:51,040 --> 00:14:55,200
Because now I would imagine
Spotify still has to distribute

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the RSS to the different hosting
platforms and the reason people

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are hosting through Spotify.
Yeah, that is a brilliant

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00:15:03,320 --> 00:15:05,760
question.
And actually I don't know the

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00:15:05,760 --> 00:15:08,640
answer to that because we, I
don't host with Spotify.

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The podcasts I managed don't
host with Spotify, and therefore

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the only surface that I see is,
you know, the one that you're

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presented with as somebody who
hosts elsewhere.

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00:15:18,880 --> 00:15:21,000
So yeah, I don't know, but
that's a great question and I'd

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00:15:21,000 --> 00:15:22,800
love to know the answer if
anybody else does.

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I'm in the kitchen now making
eggs for my husband.

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00:15:26,400 --> 00:15:29,600
I'm going to turn the rest some
of the interview over to Ashley.

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00:15:29,600 --> 00:15:33,680
Ashley, go ahead and pick it up.
So what would you say is?

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00:15:33,800 --> 00:15:36,200
One of the features I was
reading the newsletter.

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Is that you can actually change
the clips if you don't like the

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00:15:41,560 --> 00:15:43,600
clip on Spotify.
Because we were just talking

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00:15:43,600 --> 00:15:44,320
about.
Video.

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00:15:44,320 --> 00:15:46,000
I was wondering if you could
walk us through that a little

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00:15:46,000 --> 00:15:47,200
bit.
Yes.

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00:15:47,200 --> 00:15:50,880
So this is great.
So when I say I don't upload

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00:15:50,880 --> 00:15:54,000
video and I tell other people
not to, there is an exception to

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00:15:54,000 --> 00:15:58,840
that, which is that video clips
actually I think are quite

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00:15:58,840 --> 00:16:02,040
useful.
So if you do upload a full video

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00:16:02,040 --> 00:16:07,520
version of your episode, then
overrides the RSS, if you are

259
00:16:07,520 --> 00:16:12,640
already publishing vertical
social clips from your podcast

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00:16:12,640 --> 00:16:17,760
recording, you can upload a
video clip to Spotify as a

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00:16:17,760 --> 00:16:21,960
vertical video and that will sit
in various kind of discovery

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00:16:21,960 --> 00:16:26,160
surfaces within the platform.
So that I think is quite helpful

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00:16:26,680 --> 00:16:28,320
in terms of the stuff that you
were talking about, about

264
00:16:28,320 --> 00:16:30,200
selecting like different
previews and things.

265
00:16:30,200 --> 00:16:31,360
So they're two separate things,
right?

266
00:16:31,360 --> 00:16:36,360
So you can upload a video clip
to an episode separately.

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00:16:36,840 --> 00:16:41,440
But then the other cool thing
that I am quite a fan of is that

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00:16:41,640 --> 00:16:45,280
if you go into your feed
settings and you turn all the

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automations on, then Spotify
will automatically transcribe

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00:16:50,160 --> 00:16:52,440
your episode.
And from that transcript, it

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00:16:52,440 --> 00:16:57,280
will choose, it will choose an
episode preview, which is an

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00:16:57,280 --> 00:17:01,320
audio preview that it'll use
when you know on sort of various

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00:17:01,320 --> 00:17:03,920
kind of discovery surfaces
around the platform.

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00:17:04,079 --> 00:17:08,960
It'll choose some topics that it
thinks your episode is about and

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00:17:08,960 --> 00:17:13,599
it'll choose some guests that it
thinks feature on your episode.

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00:17:13,599 --> 00:17:15,920
And that takes all that from the
transcript.

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00:17:16,240 --> 00:17:20,440
And although it does that
automatically, it then provides

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00:17:20,440 --> 00:17:25,680
you an element of customization.
So per episode, if you go into

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00:17:25,680 --> 00:17:29,240
your episode settings, you can
then you can then go and

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00:17:29,240 --> 00:17:32,360
customize those automated
choices.

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00:17:32,800 --> 00:17:37,640
So the episode previews you can
go into and you can actually, if

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00:17:37,640 --> 00:17:39,440
you don't like, you can just
choose a completely different

283
00:17:39,440 --> 00:17:43,000
preview, set your own in and out
points and tell it what you want

284
00:17:43,000 --> 00:17:47,480
to select as the episode preview
with the topics and the guests.

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00:17:47,480 --> 00:17:51,200
You actually can't add any more,
but you can reorder them so they

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00:17:51,200 --> 00:17:53,920
show up in a different order.
And if there are ones that are

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00:17:53,920 --> 00:17:55,680
incorrect, then you can delete
them.

288
00:17:55,960 --> 00:17:59,440
So it just it gives you that
little bit of control, which I

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00:17:59,440 --> 00:18:02,080
think is quite helpful.
I don't actually know.

290
00:18:02,080 --> 00:18:05,200
I don't have any data on like
how.

291
00:18:05,440 --> 00:18:08,400
And something I would love to do
actually is to do like a deeper

292
00:18:08,400 --> 00:18:11,560
dive into kind of getting some
of the data on my how effective

293
00:18:11,560 --> 00:18:15,080
some of these things are.
But like, the options are there

294
00:18:15,080 --> 00:18:18,920
to play with and since they are
there, I think it's worth

295
00:18:18,920 --> 00:18:23,040
exploring them to kind of see
which levers you can pull to

296
00:18:23,040 --> 00:18:27,320
make the most difference to your
listenership to Spotify.

297
00:18:27,360 --> 00:18:30,480
Because I haven't played with
the clips too much in Spotify.

298
00:18:30,480 --> 00:18:36,120
Do they give you any kind of
analytics or engagement metrics

299
00:18:36,120 --> 00:18:38,960
to go by to see how many people
are actually watching those

300
00:18:39,400 --> 00:18:41,680
short clips?
Or I'm thinking kind of like, I

301
00:18:41,680 --> 00:18:43,800
took that and see if people
watch it all the way through or

302
00:18:43,800 --> 00:18:46,600
how many people watched it.
Do you get any of that with

303
00:18:46,600 --> 00:18:50,240
Spotify?
Yeah, annoyingly not actually.

304
00:18:50,480 --> 00:18:55,000
It's one of those things where
if it wasn't so easy because

305
00:18:55,000 --> 00:18:56,720
there isn't the data, I wouldn't
bother with it.

306
00:18:57,160 --> 00:18:59,800
But because it's just so
unbelievably easy.

307
00:18:59,800 --> 00:19:02,880
Like if I'm already uploading a
vertical clip to TikTok and

308
00:19:02,880 --> 00:19:07,360
Facebook and Instagram and
YouTube Shorts, then it's like

309
00:19:07,640 --> 00:19:11,440
the matter of like 3 clicks to
also add it to Spotify.

310
00:19:11,960 --> 00:19:14,280
And I sort of think it can't
hurt.

311
00:19:14,280 --> 00:19:17,360
When I browse podcasts, I see
those video clips sometimes and

312
00:19:17,360 --> 00:19:20,960
that helps me make a decision.
So that's probably a good thing

313
00:19:20,960 --> 00:19:22,600
to do.
But if it was like, oh, it's

314
00:19:22,600 --> 00:19:25,000
going to take me another 15
minutes to do this, I wouldn't,

315
00:19:25,040 --> 00:19:29,560
I would have to, it would give
me pause if I'm not getting any

316
00:19:29,560 --> 00:19:31,600
data.
And I think one of the things it

317
00:19:31,600 --> 00:19:36,840
feels to me like Spotify is kind
of product team of like created

318
00:19:36,840 --> 00:19:42,240
a bunch of features, but they're
still quite early and maybe the

319
00:19:42,240 --> 00:19:44,600
analytics haven't caught up with
it yet.

320
00:19:44,600 --> 00:19:46,640
I do quite like in Spotify's
analytics.

321
00:19:46,640 --> 00:19:49,080
I don't know whether you've
played with this at all, but it

322
00:19:49,080 --> 00:19:52,960
gives you like this nice little
funnel that shows you how many

323
00:19:52,960 --> 00:19:55,840
impressions you're getting, how
many of those impressions are

324
00:19:55,840 --> 00:20:00,160
converting to interest, and then
how many of those kind of views

325
00:20:00,160 --> 00:20:04,520
of your podcast are converting
into listens, which is sort of a

326
00:20:04,520 --> 00:20:06,320
nice.
It's a nice way of seeing it,

327
00:20:06,320 --> 00:20:09,880
but I do think the data could be
more granular and would be more

328
00:20:09,880 --> 00:20:12,520
useful if it was, I think.
Have you, have you played with

329
00:20:12,520 --> 00:20:15,880
that at all?
I've looked into and I got like

330
00:20:16,040 --> 00:20:18,200
taking a look at the impressions
and plays and listens, kind of

331
00:20:18,200 --> 00:20:20,000
like what you were talking
about, but I hadn't gotten too

332
00:20:20,000 --> 00:20:23,360
deep into it.
I think it was because of the

333
00:20:23,360 --> 00:20:27,880
confusion of I understand
impressions and I know we've

334
00:20:27,880 --> 00:20:31,280
covered it in this podcast, the
difference between plays and

335
00:20:31,280 --> 00:20:33,560
listens on Spotify and that,
that.

336
00:20:33,560 --> 00:20:36,760
Whole deal still excuses me for
this day.

337
00:20:36,800 --> 00:20:38,560
Absolutely, but there is a
difference.

338
00:20:39,560 --> 00:20:44,160
Oh yeah, so that is confusing.
So a listen, as far as I

339
00:20:44,160 --> 00:20:50,760
understand it is an individual,
whereas a play is when the play

340
00:20:50,760 --> 00:20:52,800
button is clicked on your
episode.

341
00:20:53,080 --> 00:20:57,720
So an individual might listen to
1 episode all the way through,

342
00:20:57,720 --> 00:21:01,840
but they might do it in five
sittings and every time they hit

343
00:21:01,840 --> 00:21:04,920
play and pause and play and
pause and whatever, skip and

344
00:21:04,920 --> 00:21:08,280
things, then I think it counts.
I'm not sure about skip, but

345
00:21:08,280 --> 00:21:11,360
like every time they hit play,
it counts as a play.

346
00:21:11,360 --> 00:21:13,600
So that's why the play number is
so much larger.

347
00:21:13,800 --> 00:21:18,360
I do like that Spotify gives you
unique listeners and in fact,

348
00:21:18,360 --> 00:21:23,080
one of the metrics that I use,
so I aggregate, I take the data

349
00:21:23,080 --> 00:21:26,400
from Apple Podcasts and from
Spotify and I put it all

350
00:21:26,400 --> 00:21:31,400
together and get a sort of a
total uniques her episode, which

351
00:21:31,400 --> 00:21:34,640
is quite a useful metric to
track because that shows actual

352
00:21:34,640 --> 00:21:38,880
people listening to your show.
Yeah, some of these analytics

353
00:21:39,240 --> 00:21:42,400
feel just redundant, you know
what I mean?

354
00:21:42,600 --> 00:21:46,720
There are some that are needed
that I don't see that are that

355
00:21:46,720 --> 00:21:48,920
they're touching on yet.
And then there are others that

356
00:21:48,920 --> 00:21:52,920
feel kind of redundant.
So now, Chris, you had already

357
00:21:52,920 --> 00:21:57,400
said that you are not on Spotify
and your clients are not on

358
00:21:57,400 --> 00:21:59,760
Spotify.
And that is the same with me.

359
00:22:00,000 --> 00:22:06,200
So for all of those people who
are not share, do not have the

360
00:22:06,200 --> 00:22:12,360
platform of Spotify, are any of
these gems and marketing things,

361
00:22:12,560 --> 00:22:16,760
how many of them are for us that
are maybe being hosted on other

362
00:22:16,760 --> 00:22:18,960
platforms?
All of the things that I've

363
00:22:18,960 --> 00:22:22,360
mentioned so far are things that
you can access even if your

364
00:22:22,360 --> 00:22:24,240
podcast is hosted on other
platforms.

365
00:22:24,680 --> 00:22:29,440
So you can you need to claim
your podcast in, you need to log

366
00:22:29,440 --> 00:22:32,840
into Spotify for Creators.
It used to be Spotify for

367
00:22:32,840 --> 00:22:35,880
Podcasters, but now they call it
Spotify for Creators.

368
00:22:36,120 --> 00:22:40,280
And I think it's creators dot,
Spotify dot from or something.

369
00:22:40,560 --> 00:22:44,200
And yeah, you log into that, you
claim your podcast by putting in

370
00:22:44,200 --> 00:22:49,040
the RSS feed, and then you have
access to all of these tools.

371
00:22:49,240 --> 00:22:52,520
So Spotify for Creators is the
platform, the back end platform

372
00:22:52,800 --> 00:22:54,600
that you're using to manage all
of this stuff.

373
00:22:55,040 --> 00:22:58,080
And yeah, anybody can access it.
Any any podcast can access it

374
00:22:58,080 --> 00:23:00,200
wherever they're hosted.
That's great.

375
00:23:00,440 --> 00:23:04,640
And just a reminder to our
listeners, this interview is

376
00:23:04,640 --> 00:23:09,880
based on his issue.
He has a podcasting newsletter

377
00:23:09,880 --> 00:23:12,800
on Sub Stack called Podcast
Strategy.

378
00:23:13,080 --> 00:23:18,800
And there was an enormous amount
of research that went into this

379
00:23:18,800 --> 00:23:22,160
issue all about Spotify.
How long did it take you to

380
00:23:22,160 --> 00:23:28,040
research all of this?
Well, the actual issue like is

381
00:23:28,040 --> 00:23:31,880
like a day's worth of work, but
all of the like, but most of it

382
00:23:31,880 --> 00:23:34,720
comes from like actively
managing a podcast every day.

383
00:23:34,720 --> 00:23:37,440
So I don't know.
I mean, I've been doing it for

384
00:23:37,440 --> 00:23:38,920
13 or so years.
Does that count?

385
00:23:38,920 --> 00:23:41,440
I.
Guess so.

386
00:23:41,840 --> 00:23:44,760
I guess so.
The one that I'm really like

387
00:23:44,920 --> 00:23:47,840
gravitating towards is the
comment section that people can

388
00:23:47,840 --> 00:23:53,440
actually do comments, do polls.
That is just a piece of gold.

389
00:23:53,800 --> 00:23:57,320
So what's the wildest, most
unexpected poll or comment that

390
00:23:57,320 --> 00:24:01,760
you have seen on the show?
Can you pick one?

391
00:24:02,640 --> 00:24:05,800
I mean, the thing that has
amazed me actually about the

392
00:24:05,800 --> 00:24:09,320
comments that we get on our
podcast on Spotify and also on

393
00:24:09,320 --> 00:24:12,800
YouTube as well is how good
faith they generally are.

394
00:24:13,120 --> 00:24:18,120
I'm sort of used to seeing a lot
of quite negative comments.

395
00:24:18,280 --> 00:24:21,760
If you spend any time on the
Internet, then you are going to

396
00:24:22,280 --> 00:24:24,720
you put anything out in the in
on the Internet, you're going to

397
00:24:24,720 --> 00:24:27,680
get some negative comments.
And you know, I've had some

398
00:24:27,680 --> 00:24:32,680
doozies in my time, but like
most of the comments that we get

399
00:24:32,680 --> 00:24:34,400
are actually in really good
faith.

400
00:24:34,800 --> 00:24:38,440
We have had some we've had some
spam, you know, we've had people

401
00:24:38,440 --> 00:24:41,560
kind of leaving the same comment
over and over because they're

402
00:24:41,560 --> 00:24:44,240
we're a political podcast.
So you know, they want to make

403
00:24:44,240 --> 00:24:46,280
that political point or
something and you just have to

404
00:24:46,280 --> 00:24:47,760
moderate for those sorts of
things.

405
00:24:48,160 --> 00:24:51,480
Most of the comments are
actually like responding to what

406
00:24:51,480 --> 00:24:54,520
people have heard in the
episode, contributing their

407
00:24:54,520 --> 00:24:57,960
thoughts, starting a
conversation or, you know,

408
00:24:57,960 --> 00:25:01,520
asking us a question for our
listeners questions episode.

409
00:25:01,600 --> 00:25:04,120
And I can't think of one that
kind of stands out.

410
00:25:04,120 --> 00:25:08,200
But like, the overriding feeling
that I get from the comments is

411
00:25:08,200 --> 00:25:11,280
that people, they're, they're
genuine listeners who are

412
00:25:11,280 --> 00:25:14,200
actively engaged and interested
in what we're talking about.

413
00:25:14,440 --> 00:25:19,200
So of all the gems that Spotify
has for us to use them for

414
00:25:19,200 --> 00:25:23,120
marketing, where's the one that
you think that maybe they

415
00:25:23,320 --> 00:25:26,400
they're not meeting the bar they
need a little bit of help on, or

416
00:25:26,400 --> 00:25:28,240
maybe something's missing
entirely?

417
00:25:28,600 --> 00:25:32,120
I've talked about video.
I think that's that's a really

418
00:25:32,120 --> 00:25:35,520
hot topic and really don't like
how they do it right now.

419
00:25:36,000 --> 00:25:39,120
I'm sort of quite disappointed
that you can't customize the

420
00:25:39,400 --> 00:25:42,480
topics and the guests more.
I think it would be really

421
00:25:42,480 --> 00:25:46,560
helpful to be able to specify
because actually the guest

422
00:25:46,560 --> 00:25:51,200
selector is not brilliant.
I put in the newsletter actually

423
00:25:51,200 --> 00:25:56,560
that I found that episodes where
somebody said my guest today is

424
00:25:56,640 --> 00:26:01,480
so and so tended to pick up the
guest names better.

425
00:26:01,920 --> 00:26:06,880
But I, somebody from Spotify got
in touch after the after I

426
00:26:07,000 --> 00:26:10,080
published the e-mail and they
said actually that kind of

427
00:26:10,080 --> 00:26:12,440
shouldn't make a difference.
It should just pick it up from

428
00:26:12,440 --> 00:26:15,600
the transcript.
But to my mind, it would be, it

429
00:26:15,600 --> 00:26:22,440
would be quite helpful to be
able to tag a guest and for

430
00:26:22,440 --> 00:26:24,600
guests to have a page in
Spotify.

431
00:26:24,600 --> 00:26:27,960
So you could like go to a guest
page and see all the podcasts

432
00:26:27,960 --> 00:26:30,920
that they have appeared on.
There's like different ways that

433
00:26:30,920 --> 00:26:33,640
you can do the kind of
recommendations and things based

434
00:26:33,640 --> 00:26:36,800
on like if I like, there's a,
there's a business creator that

435
00:26:36,800 --> 00:26:39,200
I really like called Daniel
Priestley.

436
00:26:39,560 --> 00:26:43,160
And I listen to a lot of the
podcasts that he's on.

437
00:26:43,160 --> 00:26:45,720
Actually, I've listened to so
many that I've reached the point

438
00:26:45,720 --> 00:26:47,400
where he's just saying the same
thing over and over now.

439
00:26:47,400 --> 00:26:50,480
But getting into him and his
content, He doesn't have his own

440
00:26:50,480 --> 00:26:53,800
podcast, but he appears on a lot
of other podcasts.

441
00:26:54,000 --> 00:26:59,000
I would quite enjoy a guest feed
of all of his content on

442
00:26:59,000 --> 00:27:01,880
different people shows and then
I would discover lots of

443
00:27:01,880 --> 00:27:03,520
different people shows through
doing that.

444
00:27:03,520 --> 00:27:06,520
So I think that's something that
would be cool but doesn't exist

445
00:27:06,520 --> 00:27:08,440
at the moment.
What would your like wish list

446
00:27:08,440 --> 00:27:10,480
be?
If you could get Spotify on the

447
00:27:10,480 --> 00:27:13,440
phone and tell them a feature
request, what do you think it

448
00:27:13,440 --> 00:27:14,800
would be?
Well, you know what?

449
00:27:14,800 --> 00:27:17,800
That's the thing though, I try
and steer away from.

450
00:27:20,200 --> 00:27:22,120
Why is that?
It's just, it has this

451
00:27:22,120 --> 00:27:26,880
reputation of not being the best
when it comes to customer

452
00:27:26,880 --> 00:27:31,280
service.
And I, and again, I think that

453
00:27:31,280 --> 00:27:36,480
maybe I, maybe I'm going on
antiquated information.

454
00:27:36,560 --> 00:27:39,920
Maybe I need to update my, my
feelings on that.

455
00:27:40,160 --> 00:27:43,240
Have you had a chance to
experience their customer

456
00:27:43,240 --> 00:27:46,080
service and they're going
through such a metamorphic that

457
00:27:46,120 --> 00:27:48,960
it's you?
Know well, I suppose technically

458
00:27:48,960 --> 00:27:53,400
we're not a Spotify customer,
we're a Spotify user, right?

459
00:27:53,400 --> 00:27:59,000
So I have had relationships with
people who work at Spotify in

460
00:27:59,000 --> 00:28:01,880
the same way that I've had
relationships that work with

461
00:28:01,880 --> 00:28:06,360
people that work at Apple in the
sense of you might sometimes get

462
00:28:06,480 --> 00:28:09,960
on different shows, a, you know,
a partner success manager or

463
00:28:09,960 --> 00:28:12,040
something.
He can like give you tips on how

464
00:28:12,040 --> 00:28:13,520
to use the platform and that
sort of thing.

465
00:28:13,800 --> 00:28:16,880
But I haven't, as I said, we
don't host on Spotify, so we're

466
00:28:16,880 --> 00:28:19,040
not paying any money and they're
not paying us any money.

467
00:28:19,520 --> 00:28:21,800
So we're just, we're just a user
at the moment.

468
00:28:22,160 --> 00:28:24,440
But you know, these platforms
that like, there are people that

469
00:28:24,440 --> 00:28:28,280
run them and half the time it's
just like trying to figure out

470
00:28:28,280 --> 00:28:29,840
how to get in touch with the
right people.

471
00:28:30,560 --> 00:28:33,640
Yes, I understand.
It's it's who you know.

472
00:28:33,880 --> 00:28:35,720
Hey, Nick, you have a question?
Go ahead, Nick.

473
00:28:36,320 --> 00:28:40,440
Say you were going to be
starting a new podcast or

474
00:28:40,800 --> 00:28:44,560
someone wants to kind of start
putting more of their eggs in

475
00:28:44,560 --> 00:28:47,640
the Spotify basket and kind of
shift away from Apple or

476
00:28:47,640 --> 00:28:51,960
YouTube, wherever they're at.
What would be like the top three

477
00:28:51,960 --> 00:28:56,080
things that someone should focus
on to get the most out of the

478
00:28:56,080 --> 00:29:01,480
platform and really be able to
expand their reach on Spotify

479
00:29:01,480 --> 00:29:05,920
specifically?
So the first thing I think is

480
00:29:05,920 --> 00:29:10,200
getting your titles and
descriptions right, both on a

481
00:29:10,200 --> 00:29:13,560
show level and on a feed level.
And, and this of course has the

482
00:29:13,560 --> 00:29:16,400
benefit that if you get that
right, this isn't just about

483
00:29:16,400 --> 00:29:19,000
Spotify, This is about every
player that you appear on.

484
00:29:19,360 --> 00:29:23,440
But different players will have
different character limits for

485
00:29:23,440 --> 00:29:25,920
titles and, and for
descriptions.

486
00:29:25,920 --> 00:29:29,360
And I actually had another
newsletter issue where I went

487
00:29:29,360 --> 00:29:33,120
into a bit more detail about
this, but because they all have

488
00:29:33,120 --> 00:29:35,960
like different character limits
and stuff, if we're saying like

489
00:29:36,200 --> 00:29:40,000
I'm going to, Spotify is my
primary discovery platform, so

490
00:29:40,000 --> 00:29:43,360
I'm going to optimize all of my
content from that.

491
00:29:43,680 --> 00:29:45,840
And then everything else will
follow.

492
00:29:46,200 --> 00:29:52,280
Then Spotify's title gives you
maximum 2 lines, I think it's

493
00:29:52,280 --> 00:29:54,960
like 8 to 12 words depending on
how long the words are.

494
00:29:55,320 --> 00:29:58,920
And then the description gives
you a maximum of two lines as

495
00:29:58,920 --> 00:30:03,440
the preview.
For me, I would make sure that

496
00:30:03,440 --> 00:30:07,640
I'm optimizing my title and
description for that character

497
00:30:07,640 --> 00:30:11,480
count so that what really
important information surfaces

498
00:30:11,480 --> 00:30:16,040
first.
Then I would do the video clips

499
00:30:16,120 --> 00:30:18,480
because they're the easiest
lift, I think.

500
00:30:19,280 --> 00:30:21,560
And the other thing that I
should say about titles and

501
00:30:21,560 --> 00:30:28,920
descriptions in Spotify is that
it appears that Spotify uses

502
00:30:29,200 --> 00:30:34,160
show title, show description,
episode title, and episode

503
00:30:34,160 --> 00:30:38,360
description to inform search
results.

504
00:30:38,720 --> 00:30:44,080
It says that it doesn't just use
keywords, it uses natural

505
00:30:44,080 --> 00:30:47,280
language processing.
So you don't just have to like

506
00:30:47,280 --> 00:30:51,120
stuff all your primary keywords
in your titles and descriptions,

507
00:30:51,120 --> 00:30:55,400
but making sure that you are
referencing the topics that

508
00:30:55,400 --> 00:30:59,080
you're discussing using a good
kind of SEO and keyword

509
00:30:59,080 --> 00:31:02,440
strategy.
And you know, you can vary kind

510
00:31:02,440 --> 00:31:04,760
of how the keywords is
displayed, but making sure that

511
00:31:04,760 --> 00:31:09,200
the relevant topics are talked
about in your description will

512
00:31:09,360 --> 00:31:12,120
give you the best chance of kind
of surfacing on search.

513
00:31:12,120 --> 00:31:14,760
So I'd say like, that's the
that's the starting point.

514
00:31:15,280 --> 00:31:19,000
Then I would go to the video
clips because if you're doing

515
00:31:19,000 --> 00:31:22,240
video already, they're so easy.
If you're not doing video

516
00:31:22,240 --> 00:31:24,520
already and you just skip over
that bit.

517
00:31:24,920 --> 00:31:30,200
And then I would go to polls and
comments and do as much as I can

518
00:31:30,200 --> 00:31:34,040
to encourage those.
Because that, I think, is the

519
00:31:34,040 --> 00:31:38,560
feature that ties most neatly
into what podcasting is

520
00:31:38,560 --> 00:31:41,680
brilliant at, which is helping
people feel part of a gang.

521
00:31:41,960 --> 00:31:47,960
Yes, I really go back and unpack
the title description SEO thing.

522
00:31:48,320 --> 00:31:53,680
So for our listeners, can you
give us like a good example of a

523
00:31:53,720 --> 00:31:58,040
title versus an example that's
not so good?

524
00:31:59,440 --> 00:32:03,640
I can take one from the podcasts
that we've published recently.

525
00:32:03,720 --> 00:32:07,480
We've gone through various kind
of iterations with titles at the

526
00:32:07,480 --> 00:32:09,240
New Statesman where I currently
work.

527
00:32:09,320 --> 00:32:14,480
And when I started, they were
like super big on puns and they

528
00:32:14,480 --> 00:32:18,960
would use these puns to like
give a two or three word title

529
00:32:19,280 --> 00:32:23,800
that were very clever and very
witty, but absolutely useless

530
00:32:23,800 --> 00:32:28,200
for search, right?
Because like a pun is not an

531
00:32:28,200 --> 00:32:31,920
actual word of half the time or,
or it makes it makes the robot

532
00:32:31,920 --> 00:32:35,040
who's responsible for crawling
the thing think it's something

533
00:32:35,040 --> 00:32:38,520
it's not, you know.
So actually I think being quite

534
00:32:38,520 --> 00:32:43,080
sort of huge utilitarian with
titles can help to surface you

535
00:32:43,080 --> 00:32:45,480
in search.
We've got to balance that with

536
00:32:45,880 --> 00:32:51,160
clickability and presenting the
right information in the preview

537
00:32:51,400 --> 00:32:53,680
window so that when somebody
sees your episode, they know

538
00:32:54,080 --> 00:32:58,800
kind of what it is.
So the way that we have started

539
00:32:58,800 --> 00:33:08,960
doing it now is to do a title
that is maybe 4 to 6 words, but

540
00:33:08,960 --> 00:33:12,360
then we put a break in, you
know, a vertical line break.

541
00:33:12,880 --> 00:33:16,560
And then we do like a subtitle
that's like another few words.

542
00:33:16,760 --> 00:33:20,040
If I get cut off in the preview,
it doesn't matter so much.

543
00:33:20,360 --> 00:33:24,480
But like, for example, the
latest episode is labor students

544
00:33:24,480 --> 00:33:27,680
revolt over Gaza, right?
It's quite utilitarian.

545
00:33:28,000 --> 00:33:30,080
It's got some good keywords in
there.

546
00:33:30,320 --> 00:33:33,320
It's got a bit of conflict.
I feel like that's quite a

547
00:33:33,320 --> 00:33:35,120
strong title.
But then we have a break and

548
00:33:35,120 --> 00:33:39,200
then we say politics with a new
Shakelian who is our host.

549
00:33:39,560 --> 00:33:42,560
So then we're getting the
politics keyword in and we're

550
00:33:42,560 --> 00:33:47,600
getting the host name.
And then for the description,

551
00:33:48,000 --> 00:33:51,800
because you get like a two line
preview in the episode

552
00:33:51,800 --> 00:33:55,040
appearance on the feed that you
see in Spotify.

553
00:33:55,840 --> 00:34:00,720
I like to try and start the
description with a hook a bit

554
00:34:00,720 --> 00:34:05,720
like if you're writing a post on
LinkedIn or you know, whatever,

555
00:34:05,800 --> 00:34:12,360
like put your like 12 to 15 word
single sentence hook at the very

556
00:34:12,360 --> 00:34:16,480
top of your description and that
might have a few more kind of

557
00:34:16,960 --> 00:34:19,800
useful keywords.
Actually, I didn't do this one,

558
00:34:19,800 --> 00:34:22,080
so I don't know if the producer
did it on this one or not.

559
00:34:22,320 --> 00:34:23,679
And if not, he's going to tell
them off.

560
00:34:24,360 --> 00:34:25,840
So there we go.
That sort of hook.

561
00:34:25,840 --> 00:34:29,960
Here was youth membership for
the Labour Party has collapsed,

562
00:34:30,800 --> 00:34:31,960
right?
And then you can go into that

563
00:34:31,960 --> 00:34:33,960
more kind of detail.
So like if you've done

564
00:34:33,960 --> 00:34:37,040
journalism or if you're like
writing articles for the web and

565
00:34:37,040 --> 00:34:40,120
stuff, then you might think of
it as your like your headline

566
00:34:40,120 --> 00:34:42,199
and your stand first.
That's how I think of it.

567
00:34:42,199 --> 00:34:45,040
So like the title is the
headline and the hook is like

568
00:34:45,040 --> 00:34:47,719
the subhead or the stand first
web article.

569
00:34:48,040 --> 00:34:52,880
So do you change up titles after
so long to try and optimize for

570
00:34:53,199 --> 00:34:56,639
search engines, or do you just,
you know, decide to go on, just

571
00:34:56,639 --> 00:34:58,240
move on?
Well, it's funny, isn't it?

572
00:34:58,240 --> 00:35:00,560
Like I do this on YouTube
sometimes.

573
00:35:00,560 --> 00:35:03,680
On YouTube, we change the titles
from time to time to see if that

574
00:35:03,800 --> 00:35:07,440
helps the algorithm.
I change the titles.

575
00:35:07,440 --> 00:35:10,080
If one of my producers has
written a title I don't like,

576
00:35:11,760 --> 00:35:13,040
I'll go in.
There's one here.

577
00:35:13,040 --> 00:35:15,120
There's one here they published
while I was away.

578
00:35:15,440 --> 00:35:19,040
The title is Wasp Movie, so I'm
going to change that because

579
00:35:19,040 --> 00:35:22,720
that doesn't mean anything.
Yeah, but no, but they're very

580
00:35:22,720 --> 00:35:24,800
good.
The producers I work with are

581
00:35:24,800 --> 00:35:26,920
absolutely brilliant and I
really don't have to do that

582
00:35:26,920 --> 00:35:30,760
very much.
So like, yeah, I mean, we, we

583
00:35:30,760 --> 00:35:34,200
haven't done, but then we're
producing daily content.

584
00:35:34,760 --> 00:35:38,400
And honestly, we don't really
have the bandwidth to sort of go

585
00:35:38,400 --> 00:35:41,560
back and change stuff too much.
But if I was producing a weekly

586
00:35:41,560 --> 00:35:45,400
show, then I probably would pay
quite close attention to how The

587
00:35:45,400 --> 00:35:48,440
Reach is doing and then think
about maybe going back in and

588
00:35:48,440 --> 00:35:50,440
changing if it wasn't working.
Excellent.

589
00:35:50,560 --> 00:35:54,240
I know I originally brought you
on here to talk about Spotify,

590
00:35:54,920 --> 00:36:00,600
but I also want to talk about
having a newsletter on Substack.

591
00:36:01,040 --> 00:36:05,760
Can you talk about Substack as
opposed to any other of the

592
00:36:06,000 --> 00:36:09,400
millions of platforms that there
are for newsletters?

593
00:36:09,640 --> 00:36:13,720
Why did you decide on Spotify
and how has your growth been

594
00:36:13,920 --> 00:36:16,280
from the time that you started?
OK, cool.

595
00:36:16,280 --> 00:36:19,880
So this is like my other new
passions, like my hobby passion,

596
00:36:20,240 --> 00:36:24,520
which I'm very excited about.
I launched the newsletter

597
00:36:24,720 --> 00:36:29,360
because I'm in a day job and I
thought there might come a time

598
00:36:29,360 --> 00:36:30,960
when I want to launch a
business.

599
00:36:31,320 --> 00:36:35,080
Don't know what that's going to
be yet, but everybody says that

600
00:36:35,080 --> 00:36:37,840
having an e-mail list is a
really sensible thing to do.

601
00:36:37,840 --> 00:36:40,800
So I'm going to launch a
newsletter to Create an e-mail

602
00:36:40,800 --> 00:36:45,240
list so that I've got some owned
audience that I can go to if I

603
00:36:45,240 --> 00:36:47,080
launch a business.
And that's kind of what's

604
00:36:47,080 --> 00:36:49,160
happened, right?
So I'm doing podcast crew now,

605
00:36:49,160 --> 00:36:53,400
and the Sub Stack newsletter is
helping to kind of market that

606
00:36:53,400 --> 00:36:56,720
business.
But the reason I chose Sub Stack

607
00:36:57,120 --> 00:37:02,840
was primarily because it was
free and had a lot of kind of

608
00:37:02,840 --> 00:37:06,400
useful tools and it allows you
to monetize and that sort of

609
00:37:06,400 --> 00:37:10,920
thing.
I know that it's not perfect for

610
00:37:10,920 --> 00:37:12,800
things like audience
segmentation.

611
00:37:13,120 --> 00:37:17,160
It is not an e-mail marketing
platform, so it's not like

612
00:37:17,160 --> 00:37:21,520
Convertkit or MailChimp or any
of the others way you can do

613
00:37:21,520 --> 00:37:23,880
that.
Chris, this surprises me because

614
00:37:23,880 --> 00:37:27,200
I was under the impression and
by the way, I don't have a

615
00:37:27,200 --> 00:37:30,400
newsletter yet, but Substack is
one of them that I've been

616
00:37:30,400 --> 00:37:34,480
looking at.
So I was told that Substack is

617
00:37:34,520 --> 00:37:38,280
really primarily for
newsletters, primarily for

618
00:37:38,280 --> 00:37:41,240
newsletters.
Now over the years they have

619
00:37:41,440 --> 00:37:46,640
evolved into having videos kind
of TikTok kind of videos.

620
00:37:46,960 --> 00:37:48,520
Can you, can you talk about
that?

621
00:37:48,680 --> 00:37:50,960
So I went into Substat because I
wanted to launch an e-mail

622
00:37:50,960 --> 00:37:54,040
newsletter and that seemed to me
the most frictionless way of

623
00:37:54,040 --> 00:37:55,440
doing it.
And it has been very

624
00:37:55,440 --> 00:37:57,640
frictionless and I've really
enjoyed it.

625
00:37:58,000 --> 00:38:01,280
It does also have like a social
surface as well.

626
00:38:01,280 --> 00:38:06,880
So it's got notes, which is a
bit like Twitter, and it's sign

627
00:38:06,960 --> 00:38:10,280
it can be a good way of
attracting new subscribers.

628
00:38:10,800 --> 00:38:15,520
It also has a video vertical
video function and things.

629
00:38:15,520 --> 00:38:19,680
So there's like a social bit of
it, which frankly I use less

630
00:38:19,800 --> 00:38:24,200
than the newsletter function.
Most of the listenership, most

631
00:38:24,200 --> 00:38:28,400
of the readership for the
newsletter comes through e-mail.

632
00:38:28,400 --> 00:38:34,000
So people receiving it and then
opening the e-mail like 95% or

633
00:38:34,000 --> 00:38:38,840
more comes that way and then a
small amount reads it on the app

634
00:38:38,840 --> 00:38:41,480
or comes via search or comes via
notes or whatever.

635
00:38:41,720 --> 00:38:46,320
But notes have been quite useful
when I have tried them and

636
00:38:46,320 --> 00:38:49,880
occasionally had a had one
that's done reasonably well.

637
00:38:50,200 --> 00:38:53,320
They can be quite good at
attracting new subscribers.

638
00:38:53,600 --> 00:38:57,960
I do wonder how valuable those
subscribers are and how high

639
00:38:57,960 --> 00:39:00,560
quality those subscribers are
though, because they're sort of

640
00:39:01,080 --> 00:39:03,200
in browsing in the app and it's
very easy to subscribe.

641
00:39:03,200 --> 00:39:07,800
I feel like the two biggest
other routes to subscriber

642
00:39:07,800 --> 00:39:09,880
acquisition that I found have
been LinkedIn.

643
00:39:10,160 --> 00:39:14,200
So I'm very active on LinkedIn.
That's my main discovery surface

644
00:39:14,200 --> 00:39:18,160
and then I then ID platform
people to Sub Stack through

645
00:39:18,160 --> 00:39:21,720
various kind of calls to action.
And the other one is

646
00:39:21,720 --> 00:39:24,120
recommendations, which is
something else that Sub Stack is

647
00:39:24,120 --> 00:39:28,880
really good at is if you
recommend a newsletter, then

648
00:39:29,600 --> 00:39:32,680
people who subscribe to your
newsletter are more likely to

649
00:39:32,680 --> 00:39:35,760
then subscribe to the newsletter
that you've recommended.

650
00:39:35,760 --> 00:39:39,320
And actually Sub Stack has kind
of ways of making sure that

651
00:39:39,320 --> 00:39:41,520
happens.
And I've had perceived quite a

652
00:39:41,520 --> 00:39:45,000
lot of subscribers through other
newsletters who write on a

653
00:39:45,000 --> 00:39:47,240
similar topic.
Absolutely.

654
00:39:47,240 --> 00:39:49,720
Can you, before we go to Jeff,
because I know Jeff has a

655
00:39:49,720 --> 00:39:53,920
question, can you briefly talk
about your growth from where you

656
00:39:53,920 --> 00:39:59,080
started to where you are now?
Yeah, so I started with 0

657
00:39:59,080 --> 00:40:01,520
obviously, because I started
from nothing when I.

658
00:40:01,560 --> 00:40:04,400
So I had a little bit of a
following on LinkedIn, like a

659
00:40:04,400 --> 00:40:07,840
tiny bit like 1500 followers or
something.

660
00:40:08,200 --> 00:40:12,840
And I put a thing out and I said
I'm going to do a sub stack and

661
00:40:13,080 --> 00:40:16,840
50 people very kindly subscribed
on the off chance that it was

662
00:40:16,840 --> 00:40:24,760
going to be interesting.
And now I'm at 14150 after about

663
00:40:24,760 --> 00:40:28,920
a year.
And a large chunk of that,

664
00:40:28,960 --> 00:40:35,040
probably 30% came in one day
when I had a LinkedIn post that

665
00:40:35,040 --> 00:40:39,360
went absolutely gangbusters,
mega viral for me anyway.

666
00:40:39,440 --> 00:40:44,240
And I used like a sub stack post
as a, so I housed a lead magnet

667
00:40:44,240 --> 00:40:47,200
within a sub stack post.
But I promoted on LinkedIn, the

668
00:40:47,200 --> 00:40:50,560
LinkedIn thing went viral and
then it attracted a whole bunch

669
00:40:50,560 --> 00:40:52,960
of subscribers.
So that's something I want to

670
00:40:52,960 --> 00:40:55,080
try and do more of.
Awesome, awesome.

671
00:40:55,360 --> 00:40:58,920
Hey, Jeff, welcome to the stage.
I appreciate you.

672
00:40:58,920 --> 00:41:00,400
Coming up.
Do you have a question for

673
00:41:00,400 --> 00:41:03,920
Chris?
Yeah, I think I'm understanding

674
00:41:03,960 --> 00:41:07,080
part of what you're referencing,
Chris, but it there are pieces

675
00:41:07,080 --> 00:41:09,480
of it that feel a little
nuanced, so I just wanted to ask

676
00:41:09,480 --> 00:41:12,600
it explicitly.
I'm not familiar with Substack,

677
00:41:12,720 --> 00:41:15,200
so that may be my underlying
problem.

678
00:41:15,600 --> 00:41:18,440
But when you say you choose, you
choose to do your.

679
00:41:18,480 --> 00:41:22,640
Your newsletter on Substack.
Can your newsletter not be?

680
00:41:22,640 --> 00:41:27,200
And it it may be your newsletter
is, isn't it the same kind of

681
00:41:27,200 --> 00:41:31,080
thing like a podcast lock?
You can focus on Spotify or

682
00:41:31,080 --> 00:41:35,840
focus on Substack, but you can
still take that same newsletter

683
00:41:35,840 --> 00:41:40,120
and run it through Medium and
run it through other ways of

684
00:41:40,120 --> 00:41:43,160
circulating it.
Are you saying it's exclusively

685
00:41:43,160 --> 00:41:45,760
on sub stack?
Or that's just where you kind of

686
00:41:45,760 --> 00:41:47,440
focus.
Hello, Jeff.

687
00:41:47,440 --> 00:41:50,960
That's a really good question.
And you're right, there's some

688
00:41:50,960 --> 00:41:54,320
nuance there.
So one of the things that I like

689
00:41:54,320 --> 00:41:56,800
about Sub Stack is that it also
gives you a website.

690
00:41:56,920 --> 00:42:01,760
You publish your newsletter
through Sub Stack and it

691
00:42:01,760 --> 00:42:03,920
delivers it to people's e-mail
addresses.

692
00:42:04,440 --> 00:42:08,600
It also gives you your own URL.
So mine is podcast

693
00:42:08,600 --> 00:42:14,200
strategy.substack.com, although
you can also create a custom

694
00:42:14,200 --> 00:42:15,880
URL.
So I'm in the process of doing

695
00:42:15,880 --> 00:42:18,320
that as well.
And then all of your articles

696
00:42:18,320 --> 00:42:23,800
are housed on that URL and
within your profile on the Sub

697
00:42:23,800 --> 00:42:27,880
Stack app.
So like it becomes like from 1

698
00:42:27,880 --> 00:42:31,360
publish, you've got those three
like different platforms that it

699
00:42:31,360 --> 00:42:34,040
goes out to e-mail, website and
the app.

700
00:42:34,560 --> 00:42:39,280
I have experimented with
repurposing the stuff that I've

701
00:42:39,280 --> 00:42:46,640
written on sub Stack as LinkedIn
articles, which is good, I

702
00:42:46,640 --> 00:42:47,960
think.
I think that's fine.

703
00:42:48,280 --> 00:42:52,880
I haven't put it on like Medium
or on a personal blog or

704
00:42:52,880 --> 00:42:56,400
anything like that, partly
because I'm a bit nervous about

705
00:42:56,400 --> 00:42:58,440
duplicate content affecting the
SEO.

706
00:42:58,440 --> 00:43:01,240
So obviously SEO takes a long
time to build.

707
00:43:01,600 --> 00:43:07,440
I've only just started to see
traffic, small and really small

708
00:43:07,440 --> 00:43:14,080
amounts of traffic coming to the
Substack website via search.

709
00:43:14,800 --> 00:43:19,560
And I'm a bit nervous about kind
of whether SEO would get

710
00:43:19,560 --> 00:43:21,160
punished.
I mean, to be honest, it's

711
00:43:21,160 --> 00:43:23,160
probably academic because the
amount of traffic is so small

712
00:43:23,160 --> 00:43:25,880
right now, but that's why I
haven't published it elsewhere.

713
00:43:25,880 --> 00:43:28,960
But yeah, I mean like absolutely
you could like if you wanted to

714
00:43:28,960 --> 00:43:30,800
put it on different platforms,
there's nothing to stop you.

715
00:43:31,200 --> 00:43:34,760
So one more question just
because you just said it and it

716
00:43:34,840 --> 00:43:39,800
baffled me what you just said.
You said that you have

717
00:43:39,800 --> 00:43:45,240
experimented with posting some
of the articles on LinkedIn and

718
00:43:45,240 --> 00:43:50,880
you think it's good?
But you just told us a story

719
00:43:50,880 --> 00:43:55,880
about getting a 30% jump on your
subscriptions, which I thought

720
00:43:55,880 --> 00:43:58,080
was from an article on LinkedIn.
Is that not right?

721
00:43:58,520 --> 00:44:00,360
Ah, right, no.
So that was from a post.

722
00:44:00,600 --> 00:44:05,720
So LinkedIn allows you to
publish articles as a separate

723
00:44:06,000 --> 00:44:13,000
media type and then you can post
a link to that LinkedIn article.

724
00:44:13,920 --> 00:44:15,120
So it's just a different media
type.

725
00:44:15,120 --> 00:44:17,760
No.
So, So what I found very good

726
00:44:18,000 --> 00:44:28,040
has been posting on LinkedIn.
The LinkedIn articles I have had

727
00:44:28,040 --> 00:44:31,000
some traffic from.
I haven't experimented with them

728
00:44:31,000 --> 00:44:33,600
for a while simply because of
kind of bandwidth really.

729
00:44:33,920 --> 00:44:36,840
But yeah, I'm, I'm talking about
two different media types on

730
00:44:36,840 --> 00:44:38,080
LinkedIn.
Does that make sense?

731
00:44:38,240 --> 00:44:40,480
It does now.
I was, I was like you just said

732
00:44:40,480 --> 00:44:42,760
LinkedIn was a huge win.
Well, the other thing is that

733
00:44:42,760 --> 00:44:46,240
LinkedIn also has newsletters,
what they call newsletters.

734
00:44:46,640 --> 00:44:49,480
And so there's this live sort of
conversation in my head going,

735
00:44:49,800 --> 00:44:52,600
hey, just also put it on
LinkedIn as a newsletter.

736
00:44:52,800 --> 00:44:55,640
And then no, don't do that
because what you want to do is

737
00:44:55,640 --> 00:44:57,560
de platform people to get them
onto the sub stack.

738
00:44:57,560 --> 00:45:00,320
So you get their e-mail address.
But then if you just put it on

739
00:45:00,320 --> 00:45:01,800
LinkedIn, then more people will
see it.

740
00:45:02,560 --> 00:45:03,640
But no, I want the e-mail
address.

741
00:45:03,640 --> 00:45:05,800
So I'm constantly debating that
in my head.

742
00:45:06,280 --> 00:45:10,320
Right, exactly, very good.
So we only have a couple minutes

743
00:45:10,320 --> 00:45:13,360
left, Chris.
I wanted to touch a little bit

744
00:45:13,360 --> 00:45:20,000
on the podcast crew, explain it
and and you know that I am at I,

745
00:45:20,120 --> 00:45:25,200
I should be at the top of your
list, Chris, because as soon as

746
00:45:25,200 --> 00:45:27,480
I saw it, I went, yes, I'm
signing up for this.

747
00:45:27,840 --> 00:45:31,280
So it's something that has not
happened yet, but it's on the

748
00:45:31,280 --> 00:45:33,640
verge.
And so give us some inside

749
00:45:33,640 --> 00:45:35,320
scoop.
What is it and when is it

750
00:45:35,320 --> 00:45:39,120
happening?
Podcast Crew is a recruitment

751
00:45:39,120 --> 00:45:42,520
platform for the podcast
industry, connecting top tier

752
00:45:42,520 --> 00:45:47,000
podcast professionals with the
clients who need their services.

753
00:45:47,000 --> 00:45:50,240
So the target client is really
kind of, you know, production

754
00:45:50,240 --> 00:45:52,680
companies and businesses that
want podcasts.

755
00:45:53,040 --> 00:45:58,600
The reason I'm doing it is
because I have hired a lot of

756
00:45:59,080 --> 00:46:02,640
podcast producers over the
course of my career and I've

757
00:46:02,720 --> 00:46:08,120
always been amazed at how analog
and fragmented the processes,

758
00:46:08,120 --> 00:46:12,160
right?
So LinkedIn and Indeed or any of

759
00:46:12,160 --> 00:46:17,080
the other like general job sites
are super broad and nonspecific.

760
00:46:17,440 --> 00:46:19,640
I don't know what it's like in
the US, but at least here in the

761
00:46:19,640 --> 00:46:24,880
UK, there are a couple of kind
of podcast specific networks

762
00:46:24,880 --> 00:46:29,600
that people post jobs on, but
they tend to get flooded with

763
00:46:30,000 --> 00:46:32,880
inappropriate candidate.
So people that don't have the

764
00:46:32,880 --> 00:46:34,720
relevant experience or, you
know, whatever.

765
00:46:35,200 --> 00:46:38,440
And at the same time, I got to a
point where a lot of people were

766
00:46:38,440 --> 00:46:41,160
asking me, do you know a good
podcast producer?

767
00:46:41,280 --> 00:46:44,360
And that's the main way that
people find people to make their

768
00:46:44,360 --> 00:46:45,480
podcast, right?
It's word of mouth.

769
00:46:45,880 --> 00:46:50,160
And So what I want to do is try
and systematize that and provide

770
00:46:50,160 --> 00:46:54,360
a service that makes that whole
process a lot easier for people.

771
00:46:54,440 --> 00:46:58,720
So Podcast crew is going to be a
web platform.

772
00:46:59,080 --> 00:47:00,920
It's it's a sort of a
marketplace business.

773
00:47:00,920 --> 00:47:05,000
So it's a web platform where
podcast professionals can build

774
00:47:05,000 --> 00:47:08,520
their profile, apply for jobs
and connect with clients and

775
00:47:08,560 --> 00:47:14,800
clients can find an easy way to
get good podcast people.

776
00:47:15,640 --> 00:47:19,440
And the important kind of layer
of that is a level of sort of

777
00:47:19,440 --> 00:47:24,320
minimum barrier to entry.
So we only want kind of actual

778
00:47:24,320 --> 00:47:27,000
trusted, proven professionals
who've got like professional

779
00:47:27,000 --> 00:47:29,720
podcast experience.
And then there's a sort of a

780
00:47:29,720 --> 00:47:32,320
level of kind of vetting and
verification that goes on as

781
00:47:32,320 --> 00:47:35,680
well to make sure that clients
are getting access to the best

782
00:47:35,680 --> 00:47:37,760
talent.
And then it will come also with

783
00:47:37,960 --> 00:47:41,840
a bespoke matching service.
So clients can either go on the

784
00:47:41,840 --> 00:47:44,920
platform and self-serve and
contact podcast professionals

785
00:47:44,920 --> 00:47:49,200
directly or to the clients that
we that we are already working

786
00:47:49,200 --> 00:47:51,840
with.
Often they're time pressed,

787
00:47:52,240 --> 00:47:54,480
they've got a Commission that's
come through and they need a

788
00:47:54,480 --> 00:47:56,880
producer right now.
They don't really have time to

789
00:47:56,880 --> 00:47:59,760
go in self-serve, so we'll do a
white glove experience for them

790
00:47:59,760 --> 00:48:03,480
so that so we can do a bespoke
matching process where we find

791
00:48:03,840 --> 00:48:06,200
basically a head hunting process
using the database on the

792
00:48:06,200 --> 00:48:09,720
platform to service them with
the podcast producers that they

793
00:48:09,720 --> 00:48:11,960
need.
That is awesome.

794
00:48:12,240 --> 00:48:16,240
Now, Chris, I'm going to ask you
to provide us with a link that

795
00:48:16,240 --> 00:48:21,160
we can put on for the replays
and so everyone can get access

796
00:48:21,160 --> 00:48:23,000
to maybe signing up for this,
OK?

797
00:48:23,640 --> 00:48:25,920
Yeah, that'd be great.
So I should say we're going to.

798
00:48:25,920 --> 00:48:27,160
So I'm building the platform
now.

799
00:48:27,160 --> 00:48:31,080
It's nearly done.
I keep saying that and then I

800
00:48:31,080 --> 00:48:34,280
find another bug that need to
iron out and it's going to

801
00:48:34,280 --> 00:48:38,960
launch first in the UK because
that's where I am and I need to

802
00:48:39,400 --> 00:48:41,720
make sure that I'm getting.
So I'm going to launch it first

803
00:48:41,720 --> 00:48:45,960
with like a very private beta
with maybe just 20 people that

804
00:48:45,960 --> 00:48:48,480
I've already vetted who I know
are good and they're in the UK

805
00:48:48,480 --> 00:48:51,880
and that's going to work.
So then I'm going to yet make

806
00:48:51,920 --> 00:48:54,400
make sure that I'm servicing
them with the right support that

807
00:48:54,400 --> 00:48:55,960
they need.
Then I'm going to open it out

808
00:48:55,960 --> 00:48:59,480
within the UK.
But I've also got somebody in

809
00:48:59,720 --> 00:49:02,840
Sweden who wants to help me
launch it over there because the

810
00:49:02,840 --> 00:49:05,520
Nordics have a good kind of
podcasting community as well.

811
00:49:05,800 --> 00:49:09,000
And I would love to bring it
into the US because obviously

812
00:49:09,000 --> 00:49:12,720
the podcast industry in the US
is is much larger.

813
00:49:13,040 --> 00:49:16,760
And I think, I mean you tell me
if I'm wrong, but I don't think

814
00:49:16,760 --> 00:49:19,720
there is anything like this for
the podcast industry in the US

815
00:49:20,240 --> 00:49:22,200
at the moment either.
Is that right?

816
00:49:22,560 --> 00:49:26,320
I can't think of of any Ashley,
Jonathan, Jeff, can you think of

817
00:49:26,320 --> 00:49:28,520
anything like that off the top
of your head?

818
00:49:28,720 --> 00:49:30,480
No.
So I think that would be a

819
00:49:30,480 --> 00:49:33,200
really.
Welcome thing to have over here.

820
00:49:33,480 --> 00:49:35,600
I'll try and try and do that
quickly then before anyone else

821
00:49:35,600 --> 00:49:39,920
does, please do.
Well, Chris, thank you so much

822
00:49:39,920 --> 00:49:42,360
for taking out the time to talk
with us today.

823
00:49:42,680 --> 00:49:46,760
I will tell you that I you may
have changed my mind completely

824
00:49:46,760 --> 00:49:49,360
on Spotify.
It might be something that I

825
00:49:49,360 --> 00:49:52,840
have to take a closer look at.
So I appreciate that.

826
00:49:52,840 --> 00:49:55,840
And I know you didn't have to
wake up early for this, right?

827
00:49:55,840 --> 00:49:57,120
This is midday for.
You.

828
00:49:57,120 --> 00:49:58,600
No, I mean, this is my
lunchtime.

829
00:49:58,720 --> 00:50:01,280
I'm honored to be with you while
you're making eggs.

830
00:50:01,280 --> 00:50:04,320
Thank.
You that's that happens every

831
00:50:04,320 --> 00:50:07,720
morning, by the way, so join us
anytime you want to.

832
00:50:08,480 --> 00:50:11,120
So everyone, thank you so much
for joining us.

833
00:50:11,120 --> 00:50:14,840
I appreciate it and be with us
tomorrow for Newsday.

834
00:50:14,840 --> 00:50:20,520
Tomorrow is all full of news and
until next time, thank you so

835
00:50:20,520 --> 00:50:23,080
much.
Have a great day.

836
00:50:23,520 --> 00:50:24,800
Thanks, Chris.
Thank you.