Humans Matter: Why Originality Beats AI in Sales With Jonathan Aberman, CEO HUPSIDE

Harry: [00:00:00] What is the good word? Jonathan Aberman from HupSide is joining us today and Jonathan, I'm very excited about this conversation re regarding AI and originality. So what is the good word for you, sir? 

Jonathan: The good word is that humans matter. Humans will always matter. And the thing that we all have in common is we all value and create novelty.

Jonathan: And AI doesn't do that and will never do that. And so everybody who's bumming out about, oh, AI is gonna take my jobs, hopefully after the next half hour, you'll feel a lot better about the possibilities for anybody who's willing to be authentic and original. 

Harry: That's my 

Jonathan: good word. 

Harry: Very. That is a very good word.

Harry: So I, I think a lot of us are breathing a sigh of relief. So, especially coming from the sales side of business, everything these days is about ai. I use it [00:01:00] extensively myself, but I watch others use it and it's like copy and paste and everyone is beginning to sound the same emails, LinkedIn posts, social media posts elsewhere.

Harry: I'm seeing M dashes all over the place that I'm quickly saying, that's not really you because. You probably don't even know how to create an M dash. So what's your thought on all of this, Jonathan? 

Jonathan: Well, I've been using m dashes for years and, uh, you know, word corrects the double dashes I an M dash, so thank God.

Jonathan: But you know, what I think is, is that. Uh, right now we're, we're drowning in a sea of sameness because ai, the large language models, in order to work the way they need to work, have to be predictable. And once you start to build a mathematical model to pull knowledge back together, that's, by the way, it's not words, it's just numbers spit back to you in a way that they think you want to read them.

Jonathan: It doesn't mean they're not getting better or better at it. It, it's fundamentally a [00:02:00] sameness engine. Meaning that even if you think it's novel to you, it's not. It's shared novelty. And so what's happening is if you don't use AI particularly well and you just repeat the answer you get, then it starts to look very much polished but homogenized because it's not really original.

Jonathan: We can sense humans are really good at detecting bs. We all say we detect bs. We're really saying is we detect when something's not authentic. We're really saying is we're detecting when something's not original. It's not special. So what's happening is some people, they're starting to figure out how to use AI as an accelerant of their originality, where like, I'm sure you use it this way.

Jonathan: I know I do. I will use it and then I'll take it and I'll expand on it and I'll twist it and ultimately it's my product. But to do that, a couple things have to happen. The first is you have to have a mindset to use technology that way, and that is often predicted by how somebody functions. Problem solving, which by the way is one of the things hub [00:03:00] side measures.

Jonathan: But the other thing is. You have to have some level of intolerance for just taking an easy way out. 

Harry: Hmm. 

Jonathan: And ai, because it's so easy to use and because it's designed to make us want to use it, you can really get into a very, very close loop where you become very, very reliant on it. And you know, you talk about the issue of AI work, slop, you know.

Jonathan: I mean, LinkedIn's full of it now, but a lot of places are. But what's happening is actually much more insidious, which is what we're now seeing. Scientists who study cognition are now showing that people who don't use AI as an accelerant, but use as a crutch, they actually suffer cognitive decline the parts of their brain where creativity and originator lives actually atrophies.

Jonathan: So it's not just like. We're seeing the stuff and we should be bummed out because we're drowning in a sea of sameness. We should be, but we'd also [00:04:00] be bumming out because the people that are using it this way are actually harming themselves and ultimately harming their businesses. And that's why, uh, that's why authenticity is so important.

Jonathan: And that's why my company that we started is so important because. Geez, somebody's gotta stand up and say, humans add value, you know? So, uh, being an entrepreneur and seeing this technology, I, my team decided, well, somebody's gotta say it, so we'll, we'll say it, and hopefully 

Harry: yeah. 

Jonathan: Other tribes will come along and we can make a difference.

Harry: So, good. I, you know, I really appreciate you sharing this. The, I think sometimes people use it in effect because they lack confidence. Where they're trying to get an answer, they wanna look good, and they don't feel like themselves as they are, may be good enough. And they say, well look, here's this perfect picture.

Harry: Here's this perfect story. Here's this perfect email, this perfect response, whatever that is, and they feel like [00:05:00] that's who I wanna be. Maybe that's ideal. I'm just gonna use that because that's, that's really brilliant. But what are they missing when they do something like that, would you say? 

Jonathan: Well, I think there are a number of layers to it.

Jonathan: The first one is often if you use the tools, you'll come up with polished sameness. I mean, the, the output can be very, very good. Sometimes it's very, very wrong. But it's always very polished. 

Harry: Yeah. 

Jonathan: So that's number one. Number two, I think that you mentioned insecurity or lack of confidence. I, I do think at the moment a lot of the, uh, proponents of AI and the gen AI models are suggesting that, that I'll put you get from the models is actually better than people.

Jonathan: So it, it again, reinforces there's a fundamental truth, which is that unless you're insane. You have self-awareness, and if you're self-aware, to a greater lesser extent, all of us suffer from imposter syndrome. At [00:06:00] times in our lives, we always measure ourselves against the objective thing we could be or we wish we were.

Jonathan: And, and in the workforce or in the professional world, we're always striving to compete. Imposter syndrome is often the the, um. Is often the saboteur of confidence. And so you, you bring AI into the conversation. You can see why a lot of people say, well, I, I'll use this instead. And, and I think, I think, Gary, you've identified something really important because what's being portrayed as we talk about AI transformation is if you don't use it or use it badly, you're lazy.

Jonathan: And I think actually there are lazy people, but my guess is that more people are, as you described. Where if they, they would use it Well, if they were taught how to use it, well, they would use it differently if they understood that it's as flawed as they are and they use it differently if they understood that may not be as polished, but their insight is as [00:07:00] valuable or maybe more valuable in what comes outta the engine.

Jonathan: So in a lot of ways it's a reframing for me than, uh, than anything else. 

Harry: Yeah, incredible this conversation because I, I think I just stumbled across that. I don't know why I came up with that at this moment. That's a 

Jonathan: great analogy. I really appreciate it. 

Harry: I think, uh, yeah. Well, I appreciate you saying that the.

Harry: The idea I was using a, I use it daily. Um, I use multiple LLMs and transparency and I'll use it like, look, I'm trying to create an email here. It's to this important person. These are my thoughts. I'll write out the email. And then say, is there anything I'm missing? Is there anything that it could make this sound better in my voice, right?

Harry: Because it's got an idea of my voice at this point. But then sometimes it'll come back and I'll say, that's just not like me. This is what I'm thinking. And it seems like it's learned enough where it's now saying. [00:08:00] Just hit send. So it's, it's, this is me of being corrected a little bit by ai, but it's like, no, that my, my voice is, what's the good word?

Harry: Right. AI is not coming out with, what's the good word? Right. It's, it's just my genuine self. And I think people, you know, they're selling themselves short when they say, I'm not perfect or I'm not. Good enough and all these imposter things, and the AI comes in and gives them what perfect looks like. 

Jonathan: Hmm.

Harry: But the reality is it's not who they really are, which is what's lovable about people, I think. 

Jonathan: Well, I think you've identified something that I think is ultimately gonna be the saving grace, and it's gonna cause a lot of people to be able to find their way in the worlds, in so-called new jobs or, you know, new ways to make, make money.

Jonathan: The more that AI creates sameness and, and shared novelty and and polished output, the more the [00:09:00] consumer of that information is gonna say, you know what? Who did this? You know what? That song's great, but did somebody write that song? Uh, did somebody perform that song? Did somebody write that book? I wanna know.

Jonathan: Um, I wanna buy a piece of artwork that was made by the human hand. I, I want the person who's teaching my kids to be somebody who actually invest in their future. So I think that when sameness is everywhere, the human imprint is gonna become more and more important. I, I just. You know, at the end of the day, people value novelty, but they also value connection.

Jonathan: You know, we, we have two primary drivers. We seek novelty and value it by how it makes us feel about ourselves, what we consume, and we seek safety and connection. Those are the two big drivers of human behavior and the technology that creates a lot of content that ultimately alienates people from those two experiences.

Jonathan: May be a great intermediary, but at the end of the day, there [00:10:00] will need to be humans on both sides of the, of the telescope. And, and that's why I'm more optimistic maybe, um, than in others. But having said that, you have to have ways to demonstrate originality, whether it's, uh, a c you know, you think about like, uh, wines, you know, like TI region in Italy.

Jonathan: I mean, you gotta have the wines from a particular region. If it's kete, it says kete, and there's a little. You know, rooster on the bottle, and then he know it's kete, otherwise it's not kete, it's not champagne. And so I, I, I think that's gonna become, um, more and more important as, as the technology develops, if we put in place.

Jonathan: Ways for people to monetize it, you know, like IP writes and so forth. But, you know, it's funny you're talking about using ai. I had two really funny stories recently that show me the limitations of the technology. So the first one was I was under, I, I write columns. I've wrote for the Post for many years, [00:11:00] and I wrote for Business journal, I still write for the Washington Business Journal.

Jonathan: And I was under a lot of time pressure and uh, bounced a bunch of things and I had to write a column. And I said to, uh, my trained version of, of, uh, chat. I said, you know, write a column for me in the voice of Jonathan Erman. And because I've written so many things, wouldn't, you know, I gave it the topic outline.

Jonathan: It came out and generated a piece of content that sounded like me. And, and I read and I thought, my God, it's using the sentence structures I use, but you know, it wasn't me. And, and it just wasn't me. And I can't tell you why it wasn't me, other than it wasn't me. And by the time I was done with the column, I'd written it all myself.

Jonathan: Right. The, the other one was, which was really funny, is I'm doing a lot, you know, I'm on your show, uh, which is, thank you for that. I'm looking for, you know, getting out, talking with podcasters that are focused on originality and authenticity, because that's my company, right. 

Harry: Yeah, 

Jonathan: so I, I, I asked, uh, Chad for the top 10 [00:12:00] podcasts in DC that I should go and talk with, and it puts, I used to have a, uh, until recently my own podcast, I got too busy with Hub Side, so, so give me top 10.

Jonathan: Number three is my show. And I thought, well, that's kind of cool. So I said to, uh, Chad, I said, well, tell me more. And it told me all about my show with a completely different host. It was a woman. Who was it? I have no idea her background. I was like, if I didn't know better, I would've thought that this person, I should reach out to her.

Jonathan: It was complete, complete, um, hallucination, complete. It was wild. 

Harry: Incredible. 

Jonathan: Yeah. And that's in the last couple weeks, both of those. 

Harry: Yeah. Oh my goodness. Uh, so funny and so true. I, I find myself, when I've done this before, I've put in, you know, it's got my writing style, I've uploaded PDFs. I get back something that I give the idea and then I rewrite it and I'm like, okay, so what did I just accomplish here?[00:13:00] 

Harry: I had to do the rewriting trying to correct, or at least make it my voice, and it takes longer because I'm now trying to rewrite from something that's not my original thinking on the process. Right. Yeah. It's maybe in my turn, 

Jonathan: but. Sorry to cut you up at the same token, you know, um, I do a lot of teaching and, uh, at universities and my copious spare time, I like to teach.

Harry: Yeah. 

Jonathan: And I find that, say, notebook LM is incredibly useful. If I give it a highly structured outline of the lecture plan and what I want to cover and enough content, it can create really, really good lesson slides for me that reflect my thinking, reflect my lesson plan. But they're really good slides and so.

Jonathan: I do think that there is a role, yeah. For example, like when I go and deliver the class, it's me delivering the class, but the slides are useful. So there are a lot of ways that AI can make us better, but not as a substitute. And that's my point. [00:14:00] 

Harry: Agreed. And uh, yeah, I love that you're sharing that. So tell me a little bit about your business Hub side, because I took this assessment and, uh, I think I'm not ai, but uh, I'm not a hundred percent sure.

Harry: So tell me about that for the listener. 

Jonathan: Well, so what we do is, is we have the world's first, um, objective measurement. Of how somebody exercises their originality to solve problems. And why that's important is we surface an individual's approach to solving problems by user's originality, and then we also show how that person solves the problem compared to how AI solves the same problem.

Jonathan: Okay? So what that means is that if you're wondering, um, how somebody goes about. Get 'em through their day to beat the challenge in front of 'em. Our platform [00:15:00] provides a very fun diagnostic game that surfaces how you approach problem solving, how you over or underperform AI performing the same task, and also, uh, your level of perceived autonomy within the organization so that for the first time, if somebody wants to know.

Jonathan: How somebody's gonna perform against AI in the workforce. You can have 'em play this game that you displayed, and in a five minutes be able to see how they perform. It's, it's really exceptional. So what we did was we said, well, this is a brand new thing, doesn't exist. We need to have people experience it.

Jonathan: So we put on the website two versions of our tick. One is the OIQ Challenge that you did, which is a free game. Anybody can play as many times as I want. We change the questions every now and then. You take five minutes and it tells you what your originality competency looks like. Are you hyper, hyper expansive?

Jonathan: Are you very focal? There's no wrong answer. And then how you do [00:16:00] against ai. So you can do that, or if you want, you can take our enterprise product and you can actually try it out with 10 people that you choose. And you could use it a drinking game on a Friday night or you could use it to learn about your team.

Jonathan: But the whole point is it's a mission-based company and we're trying to give people, um, something new to be able to fight for themselves in, in a world where they're being told they have no value. 

Harry: Yeah. 

Jonathan: Now they can say, well, actually I do. 

Harry: Yeah. Well, this is great. What's your. Reason for getting this started?

Harry: Were you just looking at AI and said, where is this going? I need to step in and do something here based on my experience, or how did that all work out? 

Jonathan: A hundred percent. So I've been around, I've been around software for about 25 years as a venture lawyer, and that has actually been an investor for almost.

Jonathan: That time, um, most of that time, and I've been around software and, and I could see the development of machine learning and how competent it was [00:17:00] getting, and I became concerned about the future of our, of our kids. So I took a sidelight for about four years, and I was a dean of a business school in the DC area where we combined the computer science program and the art and design programs and the business programs under single college.

Jonathan: Against the vision of creativity in my mind, being the differentiator between it and and business. And I stopped doing that about three years ago and I went back to investing and all the companies I was vested in were in one way or another, ai. So I saw firsthand the, the gen AI and explosion I saw was going on and my concern about, about society and all of us, what would AI do, became really front of mind and.

Jonathan: I saw this technology at a couple of local universities and met these two amazing scientists and just fell in love with the technology and thought what would be a more useful thing for me to do with my time that makes sure this got commercialized. That's what I mean for me and my other business [00:18:00] co-founder Eric Baumgartner, we're both, we've been around technology startups for a long time.

Jonathan: Both of us said, you know what? This is something we've gotta do. And the two scientists joined us and it really is, um. Sometimes in life you have an opportunity to do, do good and do well. This is one of those moments, you know, this is something that has commercial importance, but also social importance.

Jonathan: And if we're successful, a lot of people are gonna be able to make a lot of money based upon the inference that they can draw from our tech. We don't have to own everything. We can just be the umpires in a brand new game. And that's why we haven't trademarked the name Original Intelligence. We want people to use it to describe it.

Jonathan: And so I guess we've effectively open sourced the technology's proprietary, but, you know, use however you wanted to define original intelligence. We just wanted there to be a category so people could advocate for themselves. So that's, that's how we came to it. And you know, to be honest with you, [00:19:00] being an entrepreneur is something I've been doing my entire life, different ways.

Jonathan: It's a lot of fun. It's how I define myself and the challenge of starting a new software company. New category is hard, but it's also really, really, really fun. You know? Even when it's really hard, it's really fun. So it was kind of natural to do it. 

Harry: What would you say you, thank you for sharing all of that, by the way.

Harry: What would you say is something that you've learned through this process? That stands out for you. 

Jonathan: So it's very funny. I, I, I think so. I've probably learned to be a better mentor of startup founders than I was before I started this. You know, I've, I've had a hand on starting more than 40 technology companies, uh, maybe more than that, but always as a mentor.

Jonathan: Mm-hmm. You know, always as the responsible adult with the young founder, the person that gets called in the middle of the night. And, uh, um, my wife Veronica is just incredibly patient with me. And, uh, I was doing the startup, I was [00:20:00] doing hub side, and a couple of months in, I was just losing my mind, you know?

Jonathan: Okay. Because everything that, you know, why isn't everything happening as fast as I want? And I'm really just like losing my mind. And she turned to me. She said, um, who are you gonna call? Right? Who do you call? And I thought to myself, oh damn, I, I, I don't have anybody to call. I just gotta take care of my own anxiety.

Jonathan: And it's just giving me an appreciation for all the times. The founders will call me and say, it's not happened as fast as I want. And I would say, I know it takes time. You gotta calm down. Be patient. And now I've gotta live like this split personality. I got the angel, the devil on my shoulders, right?

Jonathan: Rush, rush, rush. Calm down, Russia. You know, so it's, it's been a very good experience. I think I'm gonna be whatever happens, a much better investor and a much better mentor to startups, uh, after this is done than I was before, because now I, I've, I see more clearly the dynamic in that regard. That's probably been the most interesting part of it [00:21:00] that I didn't really expect.

Harry: Yeah, that's significant. You go in, you're thinking you're the expert, and you say, I know this. I've done this dozens of times. And then when it's you and nobody else at night, other than Veronica, 

Jonathan: right? 

Harry: It's like, do I wanna share this with Veronica, or am I supposed to know this? 

Jonathan: She's, she is my, my conciliary.

Jonathan: I share everything with her. She has much better judgment than I do. But, uh, uh, although you maybe, of course, the judgment of her putting up with me, but besides that, look at, at, at the bottom of, of it all. It, it just is fundamentally, you know, Mike Tyson put it best, you know, years ago when he was about to have a fight.

Jonathan: You know, he was the most violent man that ever lived, I think, and nobody should ever got in the ring with him and Right. And somebody's gonna get in a ring with him and I forget who it was and said, I'm gonna beat him. And they asked, uh, the press to ask why. And his response was, well, because I have a plan.

Jonathan: And Tyson apparently heard that, and growled, everybody has a plan's, like a hit in the face. 

Harry: Right. 

Jonathan: And, and I, I think that it's a [00:22:00] bit violent, but I think a lot of ways, whenever you do something new as an entrepreneur, no matter how much expertise you have. You're gonna get hit in the face and you're gonna have to be resilient and actually be able to get up off the mat.

Jonathan: And if you can't do that, then you, you shouldn't be an entrepreneur. But if you know how to get off the mat, then you just, you just get off the mat. 

Harry: Right. 

Jonathan: You know? 

Harry: Yeah. 

Jonathan: So every day I get up in the morning and some days are better than others and we get off the map. But you know, you look at the trend.

Jonathan: Technology didn't exist a year ago. Uh, there wasn't a product three months ago. And you know, now we have customers and we're talking about change in the nature of the AI industry. I mean, it's, it's pretty, pretty credible. 

Harry: It is. I've gotta ask, one of the things you brought up earlier is that the people who are worried a little bit about their jobs in the future, mm-hmm.

Harry: By the end of this, you might feel different or you'll take a breath or something along those lines. What would you say to [00:23:00] those people who are hearing that? Virtually everything is gonna be done by machines and you know, all of my intellect won't matter anymore and I'll be replaced. What's your word of encouragement there for those folks?

Jonathan: Well, my word of encouragement, it comes back to business school 1 0 1, which is that businesses compete in two ways. One way they compete is through efficiency. Another way they compete is through differentiation. And most companies can't compete on efficiency alone because efficiency winning requires you to have enormous, enormous scale.

Jonathan: Every other business, small businesses, your business, my business, everybody's, most of the people that are watching are enterprises that in some way make their money because they do something that's a bit different. And, and so if in fact. You're willing to live in my reality distortion field, which again is supported by science, that AI is a massive efficiency engine and a massive same engine for most [00:24:00] businesses.

Jonathan: It will ultimately result in the question, where's my differentiation? So putting aside the social aspects of the value of work and the importance of labor and the just the sheer reality that people need to have a sense of meaning, which for most of us comes from work. Putting aside the social implications.

Jonathan: Which are huge. I think that there's just an economic argument to be made that even if you just say, I'm a capitalist, I don't care about anything else other than making money using H Checker, you can demonstrate that you, people on your team can actually do something AI can't do now. Argue with me. You don't wanna make more money.

Jonathan: Oh, I don't wanna make more money. Okay, fine. Then fire other people. Then you have no pricing power because you have no differentiation. Or do you wanna make more money that you needed to have people that can add value on top of the ai. And to me, once we get through this early orgy of, oh my God, AI can do everything, which will be overstated.

Jonathan: 'cause bubbles always are, and things regress to the mean, businesses are gonna say, I need [00:25:00] differentiation. Whether it's smaller companies or larger companies, and that's why people are gonna matter. Now, again, that's just within the world that uses AI to do business. I'm talking about the world outside of AI teachers, doc, you know, teachers, uh, craftsmen, uh, small businesses, you name it.

Jonathan: They are gonna become more important because they're gonna be deliver something that can't be done at scale. They're gonna deliver the authentic experiences. 

Harry: Yeah. 

Jonathan: So I, I believe this is gonna be a, a time where artisanship is gonna matter whether it's a turn of phrase. Or a turn of clay or a turn of guitar playing.

Jonathan: So I'm, I'm optimistic. Yeah. The only thing that we really need to understand and acknowledge is that we probably need to make sure we have a regulatory regime, particular on antitrust that will allow smaller businesses to compete. And I think if we have that, um, the AI age will actually work out pretty well.

Harry: Explain that one a little bit to me, for me, [00:26:00] Jonathan. 

Jonathan: If efficiency rewards large companies, if you become large enough that you are out efficient to everybody, then you can become so economically powerful. Then you can basically undercut differentiation. 

Harry: I gotcha. Yeah. 

Jonathan: Right. So, so really it will come down to, in some ways.

Jonathan: Do the large language models become so ubiquitous, they become tools for everybody to use that they can compete or do they become heavily constrained so you can only use 'em? You know, it's basically, are you gonna work on the farm or are you gonna have your own farm? 

Harry: Right. Okay. I get it. Yeah. Incredible.

Harry: The thought that is going through my mind right now is this, what is it? OI wanna say OIQ. Intelligence 

Jonathan: quotient. Yeah. 

Harry: Yeah. Okay. So I didn't know I had this, um, I'm still, uh, trying to tell my wife that I am intelligent, but she sometimes listens to me. Where [00:27:00] can people find out about this and see, you know, what, uh.

Harry: What, what case they have in the future and how original they are. 

Jonathan: Well, so first of all, I wanna make sure that we level set original intelligence quotient is not an intelligence test. Okay? It's like how do you, how do you problem solve? So, uh, the OIQ is a way to see if somebody tends to solve problems by being very expansive, where they solve problems, by connecting the dots, whether they solve problems by tweaking things a little bit, or whether they solve problems, but it's getting stuff done.

Jonathan: All of those people use their seeking of novelty, the originality differently. 

Harry: Yeah. 

Jonathan: So the OIQ challenge, which anybody can play, just go to the upside.com. You'll see right there on the page, play it and see whether or not how the game describes your originality competency. See how. How real it feels to you.

Jonathan: And what we generally find is that if somebody does it a few times, [00:28:00] they're describe the originality approach. Is actually the way they tend to solve problems. You know, a funny story a few months ago is it's consumer electronics show in Vegas. You know, everybody likes to gamble in Vegas, right? So I'm, I'm making a speech talking about my, uh, the hub side and I say, look, I've got the OIQ challenge.

Jonathan: It's up on the web. Here's the QR code. I'll pay anybody in the audience. 20 bucks if you play it and your archetype comes back different from the way you think you are. Nobody asked me for money. I hung around for an hour in the back of the room after we were done at a booth, people were coming out to me.

Jonathan: How did you know? How'd you know? How'd you know? Nobody asked me for money. It's Vegas, right? Yeah. So, uh, that kind of, whenever we do trade shows, it's, it's incredibly accurate. Uh, and it's assuring because, you know, everybody has value and that's the point of it. 

Harry: I so love this conversation. I don't wanna keep you too long, but how would you say, [00:29:00] Jonathan, for the small business owner that's gotta grow their business and they're out selling, how can AI be a tool but not overused tool for them?

Jonathan: Well, I, I have, for example, you know, when you're doing a technology business like ours, I mean, in a lot of ways we are, we're a small business right now. We're not a large business. So anytime you're doing a sales call, uh, it's usually the first time you're having a sales call. We, uh, we've developed internally, you know, we've trained our own.

Jonathan: And by the way, number one, if you're gonna use the tools by the pro versions and train it with your own data, you know, so it knows your business just 

Harry: mm-hmm. 

Jonathan: And having done that, you know, we, we basically have created certain prompts that we use to do a competitive analysis. Every time we go into a meeting, you know, Eric and I have already thought about three or four or five attachment points where we can drive the conversation.

Jonathan: We think they're points of commonality. You know, we never go into a meeting [00:30:00] unprepared, and that doesn't take anywhere near as much time used in the AI as it would've for the research on our own Google, Googling, and or have two analysts doing it. So that's a great example of how a small business can punch above its body weight.

Jonathan: And I think that, yeah. Most small business and whether it's a service business where people are coming to you or it's a service as you're going out, selling is really important and knowing your customer and knowing where the attachment points are really important, and I think that AI is a really good research tool for that.

Jonathan: If you use it well. 

Harry: Yeah. And how about the negative side of using it in situations, would you say like they void? 

Jonathan: Well, the biggest danger is you take what they've given you and you treat it as gospel. That could be really embarrassing. I mean, 

Harry: yeah, 

Jonathan: we, we, we did a competitive analysis a couple of days ago about expanding in internationally and uh, uh, we got this hallucination [00:31:00] back from the model that we trained.

Jonathan: Suggested that we would do very well because we were a French company and we're not a French company, we're a Delaware company. And it just was this random hallucination. I don't understand why, uh, and I, but I had enough judgment, you know, not to go in the meeting and say, by the way, you wanna partner with us because we're incorporated in Paris.

Jonathan: I mean, so. So I think it's really important that you use the tool with a healthy bit of skepticism and that you know, you back check it, you back check it by doing a Google search, you back check it by using your judgment. Uh, the biggest, the biggest pitfall is not being critical about the output, or as you pointed out earlier in our conversation, using this as a way to generate content.

Jonathan: That nothing will insult somebody more than the idea that you just basically gave them content that you pulled out of an ai. Oh, now, 

Harry: yes. 

Jonathan: Right. And as you say, uh, you might think that what you're sending this novel, the chances are the text you'd use in a sales call email is the [00:32:00] same text that the AI's given to 50 people in the exact same millisecond.

Harry: Exactly. Uh, I love it. Jonathan, where can people find more of your brilliance? I love it. And, uh, we wanna get, uh, people to your website maybe taking this assessment and seeing the value they can add. What's your thought, 

Jonathan: please? Well, we're at, we're at hub upside.com, which is human upside, catchy name. Um, you can find two examples.

Jonathan: We've basically open sourced to make a vel tech. You can play the game on your own. Which is take the OIQ challenge, or you can try out the hop checker and use the enterprise product with up to 10 people. Use it as a drinking game. I mean, have fun with it. You can find me on LinkedIn. I've got a lot of followers there.

Jonathan: That's generally where I do most of my social. Uh, and you can find me there and hopefully you'll see the company everywhere over the next six months if you do. We've done our job. Very well. 

Harry: Nice job. Thank you. Thank you so much for stepping in the entrepreneurial journey, going through the pains of trying to figure out why it's not moving so [00:33:00] quickly.

Harry: All the things that you're learning and sharing those with us, it's, uh, I love, it's so genuine and real and, uh, wish you nothing but success going forward with this. Thank you. Thank you for 

Jonathan: giving me the opportunity to talk to you and your audience was great, Harry. 

Harry: Okay. Good deal.