How a Top PR Strategist Builds Unshakable Visibility for Creators With Lucy Werner

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Good morning podcasting Morning
Chat.

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Today is Monday, November 17th,
2025, and today it's PR and

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branding for podcasters with
Lucy Werner.

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We dig into finding your voice,
leaning on what makes you

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unique, and building visibility
in a way that's actually feels

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honest and doable.
So if you're listening live on

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Clubhouse, hit the share button
top right hand side of the

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screen and share it.
However, Clubhouse lets you.

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And if you're catching us via
podcast, chatter, YouTube,

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please share this episode with a
fellow podcaster.

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And now give us about 30 seconds
and we'll get things rolling.

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Thanks for being here.
Good morning again podcasting.

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Morning Jeff.
Thanks so much for being here.

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I am your host Mark Ronick and
currently on stage with me we

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have my Co hosts, producer
Ashley Feller, Matt Bliss, Ralph

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Estep, Dr. Fey, Sid Meadows and
Nick Nallback.

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Ralph, I got it right.
Correct.

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Thank you.
All right, E step, I'm

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remembering that like
e-commerce.

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That's how I remember the last
name.

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OK.
And also here with us today, we

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have Lucy Werner who we will get
to in a moment.

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Lucy was connected to our
community through Dr. So we will

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find out a little bit more about
that connection and more about

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Lucy here in just a second.
Speaking of Dr. First, I want to

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go to Dr. because she surprised
me over the weekend with some

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fan mail and I thought we should
share that here.

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So go for it, Dr. Good morning.
This is so great.

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I was scrolling my emails and
you know how when someone goes

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to your website and clicks on
contact, you know who, whatever

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your name is, contact Dr. and it
ping pongs to your regular

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e-mail inbox And this is what I
opened up.

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I'm Stephanie Graham at some
point on Ask the Podcast Coach,

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which is Dave Jackson's show.
You recommended podcasting

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morning chat to me and
encouraged me to give it a

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listen.
I did and I absolutely love the

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show.
I've been tuning in for about 9

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months now and I really enjoy
it.

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I wanted to take a moment to
thank you for the suggestion.

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I'm not sure how to listen live
but I always catch up on Pocket

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Casts which I just wanted to
share my appreciation.

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Best Stephanie and her show is
called Nosey AF and we'll link

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that in the notes.
Nosey AFI took a little listen

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to it, it's fun.
So it's taking all I can not to

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verbalize the AF because as soon
as I see AFI want it to just

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blurt it out of.
Course you do.

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It was so great to see this.
It's so nice.

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My heart just just leaped up.
Yeah, so nice to hear that and

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and again her name again.
Her name is Stephanie Grant.

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Stephanie, thank you, Stephanie,
so much.

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It means so much to actually
hear from people outside of the

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live community because, you
know, we have that community

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joining us all the time.
So we get that instant feedback,

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but we don't hear as much from
our podcast audience.

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So thank you for taking some
time reaching out to us and

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letting us know that you've been
listening for all these months.

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Very.
And honestly, I, I don't know

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what side of the coast she is
on.

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If she's on, you know,
California time or something

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like that, then yeah, this is
going to be a little difficult

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to to, to maneuver this time of
day.

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But if she is central or
Eastern, then hey, Stephanie, if

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you're listening, go to those
show notes, Scroll down.

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Honey, you're going to find a
link to get to us live.

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Yeah, one way or another, you
can join us live on Clubhouse.

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Join us live on YouTube.
We are streaming live on YouTube

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right now.
If you would like to see the

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interview with Lucy.
Yeah, Lucy's waving.

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So come join us over here too if
you want to actually see the

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interview.
And of course, we will have this

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available on YouTube after we go
live as well.

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So I think we should just go
ahead and dig in and let me tell

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you who this person is.
First, let me just say good

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morning to you, Lucy.
Welcome.

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Thank you very much.
It's actually just a good

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afternoon for me, but I like the
morning energy, so let's go

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with, OK.
Good.

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Yes, because Lucy is in the
South of France.

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Don't let the accent fool you.
Yes, she's originally from

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England but now living in the
South of France, and she is APR

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strategist and author, a
creator, and she helps small

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businesses and podcasters
promote themselves in simple,

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sustainable ways.
She's written three books on

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branding and PR, teaches a
course on personal brand

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strategy, she publishes a weekly
newsletter called The Hype, and

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she's worked with hundreds of
entrepreneurs spoken across

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Europe and built a reputation
for giving real, practical

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advice without any of the fluff.
She also runs a creative retreat

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that gives creators space to
clear to get clear on their

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ideas.
And Dr. You connected with Lucy

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Howe?
Because of AI, I'm always

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looking to expand the services
that I do.

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I'm trying to always stay ahead
of AII know it will eventually

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be a losing battle.
I know that.

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But until that happens.
And so I wanted to start

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studying up on how I can offer
PR to my clients.

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And I saw the books.
I went searching for books

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first.
That's my first thing.

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Saw the books and saw Lucy's
books.

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And I just thought she sounds
like me.

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It sounds like me talking maybe
with an English accent.

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So I searched out even more and
found that she had A and I'm, I

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know you're going to be talking
further about this.

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She had a sub stack.
And that's how I hooked up.

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That sub stack is something I
definitely want to dig into

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first, Lucy.
Yeah, fine.

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OK.
Because your newsletter that's

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it's kind of your bread and
butter, for lack of a better

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term like that.
It's something that you really

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lean on to connect with your
community and to get your

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content out there.
And yeah, you were doing it with

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Sub Stack and you shared with me
on our pre interview that your

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entire sub stack that you built
from the ground up got white

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wiped out.
So tell us a little bit about

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that.
So I'm either a genius or just

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completely bizarre because I
took a user journey in the back

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end of Sub Stack to delete my
podcast.

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I set up a podcast, realized
that I didn't have the cadence,

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the time to keep it going.
I think cadence is one of the

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most important things, whether
it's a podcast, touring

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newsletter.
Mark's nodding, so he agrees.

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Like you need to be able to set
a routine and stick to it.

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And I wasn't so I thought, you
know, it was sat on the top of

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my Sub Stack publication page
and I couldn't find a way to get

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it off that top bar of my
newsletter web page.

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So I thought I'm just going to
delete it.

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Now the first error I made was
naming my podcast the same thing

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as my sub stack because then
what happened was when I I read

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an article on sub stack help
because I couldn't find it in

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settings.
There's a lot of complicated

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settings in the back of the sub
stack.

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So I saw this article, which is,
you know, find the podcast

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settings and go to the danger
zone.

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So I searched podcast in the
danger zone, found it saw the

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danger zone type type yourself
thought us deleting the podcast

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actually deleted the entire
publication.

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Now what's subsequently meant
from that is I didn't actually

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get anything pop up to say do
you need to cancel your paid

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subscribers or let your paid
subscribers know it.

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It just went and now they have
changed the wording and they

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have built in a separate step
Thanks to me.

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That means if you want to delete
your entire publication, you do

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have to disconnect your Stripe,
so you're slightly more aware of

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the steps that you're taking.
So that was kind of hurdle

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number one.
I lost 220 recommendations from

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other sub stackers, which was
how I was growing.

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I was growing 500 free readers a
month through the recommendation

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tool.
Yeah.

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How many?
Total did you have at that time

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when you lost it?
About 13,000 but I hadn't second

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lesson for all of you back up
your data.

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So I was writing directly into
sub stack.

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I was creating all my content
directly in Sub Stack, and when

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I started I was pretty good at
doing a monthly export of my

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database.
You know, life is lifing.

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I have three children under the
age of eight and a bonkers dog.

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My husband works away a lot.
I hadn't backed it up for a

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while, so I actually probably
lost about 700 people from the

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backup that Sub Stack were able
to give me from when I'd last

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backed it up.
I'd also lost 200 articles and I

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do monthly live sessions.
So a bit like we are talking

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now, it was all hosted on sub
stack and all those videos were

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gone.
Luckily for me because I had

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been recording them on Zoom, I
did have a lot of those backed

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up so I could re repost them but
I essentially I had to start

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from scratch and obviously that
was my main income.

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I set it up in my third
maternity leave.

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Previously to that I'd run a PR
and branding agency and so I had

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decided whilst I'm on maternity
leave, rather than paying for

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think if it can MailChimp and
all these other systems, I was

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just going to house it all in
this one safe place.

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So it definitely need kept me a
little bit and then a few weeks

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later I started to see my
revenue was going in decline.

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You can you can see a stats on
the back end and somehow in

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between getting the new
publication set up.

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So I just renamed it the same
thing but changed the branding.

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So it was hopefully obvious to
people that it was a new site.

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The engineering team at sub Sack
had accidentally disconnected

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the stripe and it took about a
week to realize that that's what

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had happened.
So in that time, anybody whose

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subscription renewed were
receiving notifications that

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their sub stack paid
subscription have been

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cancelled.
Now luckily I have a lot of my

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audience I've known for a really
long time.

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So a lot of them were instantly
reaching out to me to be like,

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are you cancelling your sub
stack?

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Are you not doing it anymore?
Obviously this cancellation

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notice and that took that
probably was actually even

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harder.
I likened it a little bit to

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like when you have a newborn
baby, like everyone comes to you

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in those first few weeks.
Are you OK?

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Do you need anyone to clean the
house?

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Can we do a meal?
And then it's maybe like a few

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months later when you're really
sleep deprived that you need

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that offer.
Actually, for me, it was a few

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months later when that
disconnect happened that I was

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like, oh, I'm just really
struggling here and I lost my my

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flow.
I said that was a bit tricky.

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That sounds like it.
And I know you mentioned the

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little, little tip there, make
sure we we back up everything.

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But is there a big take away
that you think that creators or

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podcasters can learn from that
experience?

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I think researching properly the
outlets that you're hosting your

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content on, because what I did
afterwards is I spoke to

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Beehive, I spoke to button down,
I spoke to Ghost to see, could I

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replicate this problem?
Because if you think for an

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example on Instagram, even if
you accidentally deleted

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Instagram post, it's archived
for 30 days, right?

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So it couldn't quite fathom how
all of that content had been

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gone.
And so I actually moved today

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and we can talk more about what
led to the move as well to

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Ghost, because you cannot
accidentally delete all of your

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content on Ghost.
It's a different section.

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And also they do back it up.
It's archived for a month.

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So should I accidentally fall
into this same habit that I did

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before of sleepwalking my way
into deleting everything?

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I've got some insurance there.
And after rebuilding everything,

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what shifted for you creatively?
Did that change anything for you

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from a creative standpoint?
Yes.

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I think I can be very
energetically LED.

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So if I'm feeling like I
particularly want to talk about

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a topic, I'll talk about it.
And I hadn't really got my sort

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of topics in advance prepared as
much as I wanted to.

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So then when it all went down, I
really did have that kind of

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writers and creative block of
like what to post next.

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And I was talking about what was
happening quite a lot, which to

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my engaged audience was fine,
but to new people.

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Like I remember one person
emailed me and said, I heard you

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on a podcast that you give PR
tips, but all you seem to be

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talking about is that you've
lost your sub stack.

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I was like, this is a good
point.

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So now I have like a large sort
of because the other thing I did

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when people joined, they would
tell me what their PR challenges

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were.
And so I would write posts of

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subject lines of challenges my
audience would face.

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But of course, when I lost
everything, I also lost, I had

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about 100 in drafts, which I
know sounds crazy, but what I

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00:14:06,680 --> 00:14:09,120
used to do is I'd go into my
drafts and be like, OK, what

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00:14:09,120 --> 00:14:12,160
feels like it matches from last
week, what was everybody talking

240
00:14:12,160 --> 00:14:14,280
about at the moment?
What's topical and pick one of

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00:14:14,280 --> 00:14:16,920
those.
So I suddenly lost my kind of

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00:14:16,920 --> 00:14:22,360
creative database as well.
So for me now it's definitely

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00:14:22,360 --> 00:14:25,280
having more autonomy over those
creative ideas and having a bit

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more of a road map mapped out.
And, and I think the final straw

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for me that kind of led me to
leave was them connecting to

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Apple Pay.
Because before the whole sort of

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00:14:36,480 --> 00:14:39,160
premise of sub stack was you
owned your audience.

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There's a lot of news over the
over the last week about Patreon

249
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and this as well about whether
you can move your audience with

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00:14:44,800 --> 00:14:47,640
you or not.
With Apple Pay, you don't in

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that audience like Apple does
and they take 30%.

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So when I left, I had to
individually message any paid

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subscriber and Apple Pay and ask
them to come and restart with me

254
00:14:59,720 --> 00:15:02,600
on on the new platform.
Whereas with a Stripe account,

255
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you can just pick them up and
move anywhere.

256
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So yes.
And now I'm not paying 10% sub

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stacks.
So that's.

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00:15:08,320 --> 00:15:09,680
Nice.
OK, that's nice too.

259
00:15:09,880 --> 00:15:11,400
I think Dr. has a question for
you.

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00:15:11,400 --> 00:15:17,360
Go ahead, Dr. You had said that
what prompted Sub stack to do

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00:15:17,360 --> 00:15:20,360
this was because you took a
little sabbatical.

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How long was that sabbatical?
I was a self-employed person on

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maternity leave who had just
moved to France, so I didn't

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00:15:28,840 --> 00:15:34,000
really kind of have maternity
care provided for in France or

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the UK.
But I gave myself three months.

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I worked, I sort of put some
money and savings in the run up

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of that baby being born to have
some income tucked away.

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And I came off social media, all
platforms, all channels for

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three months to really think
about what was my career pivot

270
00:15:51,000 --> 00:15:52,880
going to look like, Where did I
want to go next?

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00:15:53,480 --> 00:15:56,800
That's good to know for all sub
stackers that if you do

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00:15:56,800 --> 00:16:00,880
something before three months
passes, so I appreciate that.

273
00:16:00,880 --> 00:16:03,120
Thank you so much.
And let's talk a little bit

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00:16:03,120 --> 00:16:07,640
about some PR now and, and the
different types of things you

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talk about in your newsletter.
And one of the things I know we

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00:16:10,560 --> 00:16:14,120
talked a little bit about
previously was the fact that a

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lot of podcasters say they want
PR, but you say they often start

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in the wrong place.
Yeah.

279
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Where is that wrong place and
where should they be thinking

280
00:16:25,000 --> 00:16:29,160
about starting first?
I think rather than starting

281
00:16:29,160 --> 00:16:32,400
with this is my dream media
outlet, like this is my dream

282
00:16:32,400 --> 00:16:37,320
podcast or my dream publication,
I would really be thinking about

283
00:16:37,400 --> 00:16:39,840
the very first question you
should be asking yourself is

284
00:16:39,840 --> 00:16:43,440
what are your business goals?
What are you doing your podcast

285
00:16:43,440 --> 00:16:45,840
for?
Is your podcast to promote your

286
00:16:45,840 --> 00:16:48,640
business services?
Is your podcast your business?

287
00:16:48,640 --> 00:16:52,120
Are you trying to get brand
deals for your podcasts?

288
00:16:52,120 --> 00:16:57,240
Are you trying to grow that
audience to then farm them out

289
00:16:57,240 --> 00:16:59,600
to your newsletter or another
area of your business?

290
00:16:59,600 --> 00:17:01,760
Or is this just, you know,
hobby?

291
00:17:01,760 --> 00:17:05,359
Is it a side hustle that runs
alongside your business?

292
00:17:05,400 --> 00:17:10,040
And that for me then shapes
where your PR efforts should be

293
00:17:10,359 --> 00:17:14,240
because if the goal is to just
increase your audience, then

294
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yes, maybe getting on a few
other bigger podcasts or getting

295
00:17:17,440 --> 00:17:21,240
mentioned in press might help.
But if you're trying to get a

296
00:17:21,240 --> 00:17:25,119
brand partnership, then I would
be focusing my PR efforts on

297
00:17:25,119 --> 00:17:28,800
making relationships with
marketing partners and

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00:17:28,800 --> 00:17:32,040
partnership managers of those
brands and coming up with a

299
00:17:32,040 --> 00:17:35,800
tailored package to them, maybe
starting to seed that brand

300
00:17:35,800 --> 00:17:39,360
already naturally into the
podcast so that you're naturally

301
00:17:39,360 --> 00:17:44,400
building that of relationship.
I also think we are quite often

302
00:17:44,400 --> 00:17:47,920
ego LED and we see people with
large follower numbers.

303
00:17:48,720 --> 00:17:51,920
This could be a podcast or
social media or a news outlet.

304
00:17:52,360 --> 00:17:55,800
And actually then we can almost
be swallowed up within an

305
00:17:55,800 --> 00:17:59,120
article because we're a small
fish in a very big pond.

306
00:17:59,560 --> 00:18:03,840
And I've actually seen for me
and for the audience that I work

307
00:18:03,840 --> 00:18:08,280
with that some of the most
effective sales drivers for

308
00:18:08,280 --> 00:18:11,640
people is actually smaller
podcasts and smaller newsletters

309
00:18:11,640 --> 00:18:15,400
where the audience is hyper
engaged on a specific topic.

310
00:18:15,720 --> 00:18:19,840
So I think it's also focusing on
who is the audience that I want

311
00:18:19,840 --> 00:18:24,240
to be working on or whiz to hit
my business objectives and where

312
00:18:24,240 --> 00:18:27,000
are they playing?
Where are they hanging out?

313
00:18:27,000 --> 00:18:31,240
How can I get in front of them?
You mentioned something you said

314
00:18:31,240 --> 00:18:36,000
that you recommend if the goal
is to partner with brands.

315
00:18:36,200 --> 00:18:38,160
You were talking about
connecting with different

316
00:18:38,160 --> 00:18:39,640
marketing people, different
brands.

317
00:18:39,640 --> 00:18:42,920
So I know this is a little bit
broad of a question, but work

318
00:18:42,920 --> 00:18:45,280
with me here.
How would they do that?

319
00:18:45,280 --> 00:18:49,160
How, What kind of advice would
you give for people, podcasters

320
00:18:49,320 --> 00:18:52,160
who really want to connect with
these marketing people in these

321
00:18:52,160 --> 00:18:56,000
different brands?
So the first thing I do, which

322
00:18:56,000 --> 00:19:00,280
is slightly unconventional, is I
do actually like start with a

323
00:19:00,280 --> 00:19:02,240
mood board or a vision board for
myself.

324
00:19:02,240 --> 00:19:03,760
And I actually have one on my
desk.

325
00:19:03,760 --> 00:19:08,240
And what I do is I put logos of
brands that I want to work on on

326
00:19:08,240 --> 00:19:10,560
that.
And I have it by my computer.

327
00:19:10,560 --> 00:19:14,720
So if for a while I haven't been
doing any outreach, I'll see

328
00:19:14,720 --> 00:19:18,040
that list and think I don't I
need to be doing something here.

329
00:19:18,600 --> 00:19:22,240
On a very basic level, I'd be
following those, the brand

330
00:19:22,240 --> 00:19:26,720
channels of those brands.
So on Instagram or TikTok or

331
00:19:26,920 --> 00:19:29,840
LinkedIn, wherever they they are
playing.

332
00:19:30,360 --> 00:19:33,360
And then I would also be looking
at the content creators they're

333
00:19:33,360 --> 00:19:36,120
working with already, because
that's going to give you an idea

334
00:19:36,120 --> 00:19:39,600
if you're the right fit or not.
And more often than not, when a

335
00:19:39,600 --> 00:19:42,480
content creator has worked with
a brand or a campaign, they're

336
00:19:42,480 --> 00:19:45,400
going to tag people in that as
well that work there.

337
00:19:45,720 --> 00:19:48,680
So that's one way you can find
those sort of people.

338
00:19:48,920 --> 00:19:52,760
But I also love a LinkedIn
search, like a gentle stalk, but

339
00:19:52,760 --> 00:19:56,320
in a non creepy way, right?
So we're looking for kind of

340
00:19:56,320 --> 00:19:59,840
brand partnership managers,
marketing partnership managers

341
00:20:00,280 --> 00:20:03,360
and.
I do that search bar look at

342
00:20:03,360 --> 00:20:06,400
people first in my first
connections to see if maybe

343
00:20:06,400 --> 00:20:09,640
somebody else in my community is
already connected with them, and

344
00:20:09,640 --> 00:20:12,480
I just start that gentle
connection again.

345
00:20:12,800 --> 00:20:16,520
People who are working on
influencer creator podcast

346
00:20:16,520 --> 00:20:19,440
campaigns tend to share it.
So why would be looking to

347
00:20:19,440 --> 00:20:23,080
engage with that content?
And for me, this isn't like an

348
00:20:23,080 --> 00:20:26,200
overnight dopamine hit of
sending out a cold e-mail and

349
00:20:26,200 --> 00:20:29,240
then having 10 grand land on
your desk the next day, right?

350
00:20:29,600 --> 00:20:32,760
I think it's a slow burn to
build those relationships.

351
00:20:32,760 --> 00:20:38,080
And then for me, I would be
looking to see if they've got a

352
00:20:38,080 --> 00:20:41,520
specific campaign running or a
topic that they're working on.

353
00:20:41,800 --> 00:20:45,200
So I think for example, like
finance and technology normally

354
00:20:45,200 --> 00:20:48,320
have a specific product or
service that they're pushing any

355
00:20:48,320 --> 00:20:51,520
one time.
And if you're already using that

356
00:20:51,520 --> 00:20:55,560
product or service, I would then
start seeding that you're using

357
00:20:55,560 --> 00:21:00,160
it and then almost mock creating
some creative or not creating an

358
00:21:00,160 --> 00:21:03,560
episode or something and sending
it to them bespoke, which yes,

359
00:21:03,560 --> 00:21:06,320
is a bit of time.
But the payoff on that is that

360
00:21:06,320 --> 00:21:09,640
you're sending something really
tailored to them and they could

361
00:21:09,640 --> 00:21:12,480
see what working with you would
look like, what the quality of

362
00:21:12,480 --> 00:21:16,080
the creative would look like.
I think it just sets you apart

363
00:21:16,080 --> 00:21:18,160
from the millions of other
people who just sent a code

364
00:21:18,160 --> 00:21:20,080
e-mail.
That's a great tip.

365
00:21:20,080 --> 00:21:22,520
I love that idea.
We talk about that sometimes

366
00:21:22,520 --> 00:21:25,440
here about social media.
Sometimes, you know, create

367
00:21:25,440 --> 00:21:31,120
posts, create reels or Tik Toks
that are specifically catered to

368
00:21:31,120 --> 00:21:32,960
that brand you really want to
work with.

369
00:21:32,960 --> 00:21:36,080
And I but we don't talk enough
about the idea of maybe even

370
00:21:36,080 --> 00:21:40,320
creating like a, a short podcast
episode, even if it's not one

371
00:21:40,320 --> 00:21:43,320
that you would normally put out,
but one that maybe you want to

372
00:21:43,320 --> 00:21:45,560
try to use to capture the
attention.

373
00:21:45,560 --> 00:21:48,920
Of it doesn't even have to be a
live podcast, it can just be

374
00:21:48,920 --> 00:21:51,560
like a short sample one that you
make just for them.

375
00:21:51,560 --> 00:21:55,240
I love that idea.
And earlier you mentioned you

376
00:21:55,240 --> 00:21:58,320
were talking about press
releases and big media.

377
00:21:58,320 --> 00:22:02,080
And I'm curious, why do you
think that those press releases,

378
00:22:02,080 --> 00:22:06,080
big media features rarely move
the needle for most shows?

379
00:22:06,640 --> 00:22:09,800
A couple of reasons.
I think a lot of the time if

380
00:22:09,800 --> 00:22:12,680
we're landing in print media,
it's not necessarily going

381
00:22:12,680 --> 00:22:16,040
online and that's why online
content like other people's

382
00:22:16,040 --> 00:22:18,720
podcasts on newsletters work so
well for us.

383
00:22:19,440 --> 00:22:22,720
Also, the SEO of print media
isn't great.

384
00:22:22,720 --> 00:22:26,080
So if you Google yourself, you
could do it right now in

385
00:22:26,080 --> 00:22:30,400
Incognito mode and particularly
select images on Google.

386
00:22:30,640 --> 00:22:33,920
The things that come up are
usually going to be podcasts,

387
00:22:33,920 --> 00:22:37,320
YouTube, social media, not print
coverage.

388
00:22:37,360 --> 00:22:40,520
And I, I'm going to hype myself
now for a minute, just say I've

389
00:22:40,520 --> 00:22:43,880
been in like every national
newspaper in the UK, I've been

390
00:22:43,880 --> 00:22:46,080
in Forbes, I've been in Business
Insider.

391
00:22:46,080 --> 00:22:49,360
But if you search for me online,
that's not what's coming up.

392
00:22:49,560 --> 00:22:52,360
So I can say I've been featuring
these things and put the logo on

393
00:22:52,360 --> 00:22:55,040
the website and link to those
articles for kudos.

394
00:22:55,360 --> 00:22:58,520
But actually, if somebody is
looking for PR for small

395
00:22:58,520 --> 00:23:01,520
business, like Dr. said right at
the beginning, she didn't find

396
00:23:01,520 --> 00:23:03,400
me through a press article.
She found me because I'd written

397
00:23:03,400 --> 00:23:05,160
a book.
She was looking for books.

398
00:23:05,400 --> 00:23:09,440
So I think it's incredibly hard
with the shrinking media

399
00:23:09,440 --> 00:23:13,480
landscape of print press to get
mentions because unless there's

400
00:23:13,480 --> 00:23:17,040
like a listicle, for example,
of, you know, here are the top

401
00:23:17,040 --> 00:23:20,600
10 podcasts with podcasters, or
here are the top ten PR people

402
00:23:20,600 --> 00:23:23,280
for small business, it's hard
for you to fit in.

403
00:23:23,960 --> 00:23:27,280
I encourage people to learn more
and telling a human interest

404
00:23:27,280 --> 00:23:30,040
stories of finding something
that they they can talk about

405
00:23:30,040 --> 00:23:33,680
that maybe links to their work.
So for me, it might be my

406
00:23:33,680 --> 00:23:37,680
business success allowed me to
move from the UK to France, for

407
00:23:37,680 --> 00:23:42,000
example, or things that actually
ended up in the property pages

408
00:23:42,000 --> 00:23:44,480
rather than like in small
business and entrepreneurship.

409
00:23:44,720 --> 00:23:47,720
But it's still linked back to my
business.

410
00:23:48,080 --> 00:23:51,560
So when we are just focused on a
press release for our podcast or

411
00:23:51,560 --> 00:23:54,680
our book or our product or
whatever our service is, it's

412
00:23:54,680 --> 00:23:58,640
harder to to get in there.
And I think there are so many

413
00:23:58,640 --> 00:24:01,200
ways that we can get pressed
that are better than that, but

414
00:24:01,200 --> 00:24:03,960
it's so much easier to just
pitch to somebody else's podcast

415
00:24:03,960 --> 00:24:07,120
or somebody else's newsletter.
And we know that newsletter to

416
00:24:07,120 --> 00:24:10,680
newsletter or podcaster podcast
referrals tend to work so much

417
00:24:10,680 --> 00:24:13,240
better in terms of driving
audience over.

418
00:24:13,440 --> 00:24:16,280
So if we're time poor, which
most of us are, especially if

419
00:24:16,280 --> 00:24:19,080
we're self-employed, why are we
spending so much time on

420
00:24:19,080 --> 00:24:21,680
something that's not going to
work as hard for us as going,

421
00:24:21,840 --> 00:24:23,400
hey, actually I'm friends with
Mark.

422
00:24:23,400 --> 00:24:25,120
I've been listening to his show
for a long time.

423
00:24:25,120 --> 00:24:27,160
I should actually pitch myself
as a guest for him.

424
00:24:27,640 --> 00:24:30,120
Let me ask you this.
I mean, this might sound a

425
00:24:30,120 --> 00:24:33,720
little extreme, but based on
something you just said, is it

426
00:24:34,160 --> 00:24:38,480
then more effective to say maybe
write a book than it would be to

427
00:24:38,480 --> 00:24:41,680
try to get a press release out
on something that you're doing

428
00:24:42,400 --> 00:24:45,000
as far as getting a
discoverability and that sort of

429
00:24:45,000 --> 00:24:47,120
thing?
Yeah, 100%.

430
00:24:47,120 --> 00:24:50,040
But obviously writing a book
takes a long, much longer time

431
00:24:50,480 --> 00:24:53,320
than a, than a press release.
But yeah, in terms of

432
00:24:53,320 --> 00:24:57,240
opportunities that have come to
me, I've had hundreds of

433
00:24:57,240 --> 00:25:00,720
opportunities that have come to
me from books versus yes, I've

434
00:25:00,720 --> 00:25:05,880
maybe had a few clients that
have come to me through press

435
00:25:05,880 --> 00:25:09,440
opportunities, but it's
definitely few and far between.

436
00:25:09,440 --> 00:25:13,320
I've definitely made more income
or have more new business leads

437
00:25:13,320 --> 00:25:14,840
actually from appearing on
podcasts.

438
00:25:14,840 --> 00:25:17,560
In fact, I was doing a 1 to 1
mentoring call with somebody on

439
00:25:17,560 --> 00:25:21,520
Friday and she did a podcast
that my friend had set up.

440
00:25:21,800 --> 00:25:26,000
It was a brand new podcast.
She did a season of 6, she never

441
00:25:26,000 --> 00:25:28,640
repeated it.
The audience was very small and

442
00:25:28,640 --> 00:25:31,520
somebody who listened to that
show one year later just bought

443
00:25:31,520 --> 00:25:33,520
a three grand coaching package
from her.

444
00:25:34,000 --> 00:25:38,760
I was like, that one hour of
your time just made you £3000 a

445
00:25:38,800 --> 00:25:41,280
year later.
And you know, it's the same with

446
00:25:41,440 --> 00:25:44,160
dollars or EUR.
I think it's never to be

447
00:25:44,160 --> 00:25:47,960
underestimated.
The Evergreen value of promoting

448
00:25:47,960 --> 00:25:50,720
your podcast and other podcasts
or other newsletters where

449
00:25:51,040 --> 00:25:53,920
there's an audience there who
might discover you because

450
00:25:53,920 --> 00:25:56,440
they're searching for that topic
at a particular time.

451
00:25:56,800 --> 00:26:00,520
And I want to pause and see if
any of the team here on stage

452
00:26:00,520 --> 00:26:05,760
has any questions for Lucy
around PR and podcasting or PR

453
00:26:05,760 --> 00:26:07,640
in general.
Yeah, Dr., go ahead.

454
00:26:07,920 --> 00:26:12,400
Lucy, I'm scared that if I make
my message too clear or too

455
00:26:12,400 --> 00:26:15,320
consistent that I'll lose, I
don't know, some of that

456
00:26:15,320 --> 00:26:19,480
creativity or range that I want
my work to show.

457
00:26:19,920 --> 00:26:24,800
What do you think about staying
recognizable in this AI world

458
00:26:25,600 --> 00:26:28,920
while still giving yourself room
to be creative?

459
00:26:29,440 --> 00:26:31,080
Everything is so cookie cutter
now.

460
00:26:31,680 --> 00:26:35,560
I guess one of the ways that I
do that, as I try to bring in

461
00:26:35,560 --> 00:26:38,320
different sides, it's not just
information based.

462
00:26:38,320 --> 00:26:42,280
So I tend to, with the founders
and the entrepreneurs and the

463
00:26:42,280 --> 00:26:44,640
small business people I work
with, give you 3 sort of

464
00:26:44,640 --> 00:26:46,760
buckets, right?
So bucket number one is your

465
00:26:46,760 --> 00:26:49,200
business expertise.
And that is the bit that

466
00:26:49,200 --> 00:26:52,640
probably AI can kind of take
over because people can Google

467
00:26:52,640 --> 00:26:55,160
search that.
But then you layer that with

468
00:26:55,160 --> 00:26:57,920
human interest.
And for that, that's the kind of

469
00:26:57,920 --> 00:27:00,760
the personal stories of like
your journey, you're behind the

470
00:27:00,760 --> 00:27:03,800
scenes, the things you like.
And the last one is passion

471
00:27:03,800 --> 00:27:08,240
points and passion points for me
that if you were a magazine,

472
00:27:08,240 --> 00:27:11,920
what is the equivalent of your
horoscope and recipe pages?

473
00:27:11,960 --> 00:27:15,040
Like what do you do in your
spare time?

474
00:27:15,040 --> 00:27:16,360
What are the things that you
like?

475
00:27:16,360 --> 00:27:18,760
What are the podcasts you're?
Listening to like random.

476
00:27:18,760 --> 00:27:20,400
Facts.
Random fact.

477
00:27:20,640 --> 00:27:22,600
What do you like doing outside
of work?

478
00:27:22,680 --> 00:27:25,440
What do you do that's really
weird that maybe only the people

479
00:27:25,440 --> 00:27:26,880
who are really close to you
know?

480
00:27:27,080 --> 00:27:30,280
Like making vanilla extract.
OK, shut up, do.

481
00:27:32,040 --> 00:27:34,720
You make vanilla extract?
Yeah, I have a whole.

482
00:27:34,720 --> 00:27:37,840
Collection of vanilla extract
that I've made that I've brewed

483
00:27:37,840 --> 00:27:41,680
myself.
So I would be bringing the story

484
00:27:41,680 --> 00:27:45,280
of the vanilla extract into your
teaching, into your learning.

485
00:27:45,560 --> 00:27:48,240
And also you just never know,
like maybe there's a press

486
00:27:48,240 --> 00:27:50,880
article or something in the
future about vanilla extract.

487
00:27:50,880 --> 00:27:53,920
You're going to show up and you
get quoted as somebody within

488
00:27:53,920 --> 00:27:56,440
that piece.
The other thing I do, and this

489
00:27:56,440 --> 00:28:00,480
is like a new thing that I'm
doing, which is very subtle, but

490
00:28:00,480 --> 00:28:05,600
it helps me and my brain.
I kind of color code my content.

491
00:28:05,600 --> 00:28:09,120
So my main work is green.
Then I go, right, okay, this is

492
00:28:09,120 --> 00:28:12,480
a green thing if if it's a
directory or resource I'm

493
00:28:12,480 --> 00:28:14,440
creating.
So I create a directory of

494
00:28:14,440 --> 00:28:17,120
podcasting newsletters looking
for guests every other months

495
00:28:17,120 --> 00:28:19,640
for my paid newsletter readers.
So that would be a blue thing.

496
00:28:20,320 --> 00:28:24,320
If it's about me, it's Peach,
like very soft and I live in

497
00:28:24,320 --> 00:28:28,000
Provence, Provence colouring.
And then if it's a free for all,

498
00:28:28,000 --> 00:28:30,320
it's yellow.
And then that helps me that when

499
00:28:30,320 --> 00:28:33,240
I look on my website or my
social media, if I haven't done

500
00:28:33,240 --> 00:28:35,920
something yellow for a while,
I'm like, hey, I need to do

501
00:28:35,920 --> 00:28:38,440
something for the freebies.
I haven't given something free

502
00:28:38,440 --> 00:28:41,240
for a while.
Or if it's all green, I'm like,

503
00:28:41,240 --> 00:28:44,440
OK, I'm giving them too much to
do and nobody wants to be given

504
00:28:44,440 --> 00:28:47,480
too many tasks and prompts.
So I need to maybe bring in some

505
00:28:47,480 --> 00:28:49,240
orange now.
So I'm giving some personal

506
00:28:49,240 --> 00:28:52,600
stories and the color
coordination sort of helps me to

507
00:28:52,840 --> 00:28:55,920
bring those different elements
of my life together.

508
00:28:55,960 --> 00:28:59,040
And I think for people who are
multi hyphenates who sell

509
00:28:59,040 --> 00:29:01,840
different arms to their
business, it's a really clever

510
00:29:01,840 --> 00:29:04,200
way of doing it.
Well, so people's are like, oh

511
00:29:04,200 --> 00:29:08,000
OK, it's a vanilla extract day
with Dr. and that's yellow.

512
00:29:08,280 --> 00:29:10,960
And Dr. But I know you have
another question, and before I

513
00:29:10,960 --> 00:29:14,080
go to you, I know Ralph also has
a question, so I'm going to

514
00:29:14,280 --> 00:29:16,600
check in with you, Ralph.
Good morning again, Sir.

515
00:29:16,840 --> 00:29:18,640
Yeah.
What's your question for Lucy?

516
00:29:19,400 --> 00:29:20,640
Good morning, Lucy.
I'm Ralph.

517
00:29:20,800 --> 00:29:24,000
I work with a content creator
from the accounting perspective.

518
00:29:24,000 --> 00:29:26,160
That's what I do for a living
and I have a couple of shows

519
00:29:26,160 --> 00:29:27,920
myself.
And my question specifically is

520
00:29:28,440 --> 00:29:31,680
a lot of content creators get
worried when they hear a press

521
00:29:31,680 --> 00:29:34,040
release and they hear PR firm
and all that.

522
00:29:34,040 --> 00:29:36,320
Kind of what's a realistic
amount that they should be

523
00:29:36,320 --> 00:29:37,600
budgeting for something like
this?

524
00:29:37,600 --> 00:29:42,600
What does this really cost?
That's a really great question.

525
00:29:43,200 --> 00:29:48,120
I think it depends if you're
working with APR agency versus a

526
00:29:48,120 --> 00:29:50,840
freelancer and whether or not
you're looking at like a

527
00:29:50,840 --> 00:29:54,480
freelancer who's got senior
experience.

528
00:29:54,480 --> 00:29:59,120
For me, a reputable PR agency
normally is going to start with

529
00:29:59,120 --> 00:30:02,600
a retainer and that kind of like
3 to $5000 a month.

530
00:30:02,600 --> 00:30:06,400
So it's a lot they might take on
a project for.

531
00:30:06,600 --> 00:30:10,840
I know some PR agencies tend to
work on more project based

532
00:30:10,840 --> 00:30:16,240
things that might start from
$5000, whereas if you're working

533
00:30:16,240 --> 00:30:19,920
with a really good senior
freelancer, you maybe don't need

534
00:30:19,920 --> 00:30:21,960
as much time.
You maybe need a couple of days

535
00:30:21,960 --> 00:30:24,920
with them and again, they might
work on a project fee.

536
00:30:24,920 --> 00:30:28,120
But if it's a reputable
freelancer, they're probably

537
00:30:28,120 --> 00:30:34,240
going to be in the sort of four
to $800 a day thing, which is

538
00:30:34,240 --> 00:30:37,520
why as well, I think when there
is so much you can do yourself,

539
00:30:38,200 --> 00:30:41,640
the return on PR sometimes isn't
always there on that traditional

540
00:30:41,640 --> 00:30:43,360
PR route.
Because yes, they can take the

541
00:30:43,360 --> 00:30:45,640
time to write your press
release, but they can't

542
00:30:45,640 --> 00:30:48,520
guarantee that anyone's going to
write about it.

543
00:30:48,800 --> 00:30:53,080
So it's a bit of a scary thing,
which is also why I've moved

544
00:30:53,080 --> 00:30:55,280
away from that kind of PR agency
model.

545
00:30:55,280 --> 00:30:58,760
And I like to talk about all the
ways that you can hype yourself

546
00:30:58,760 --> 00:31:02,120
because I can see from a
business perspective, it's not

547
00:31:02,120 --> 00:31:05,040
always the most effective way to
spend your money unless you have

548
00:31:05,040 --> 00:31:08,400
a huge income coming in.
And that's kind of complicated

549
00:31:08,400 --> 00:31:11,520
because, you know, it's they say
you pay with your time, you pay

550
00:31:11,520 --> 00:31:13,600
with your money.
And if you're busy doing other

551
00:31:13,600 --> 00:31:16,320
things, you're trying to create
content, you know, how do you

552
00:31:16,320 --> 00:31:18,960
make that decision that I'm
going to outsource this and

553
00:31:18,960 --> 00:31:21,520
like, what does that look like?
You know, how do you go find the

554
00:31:21,520 --> 00:31:25,160
right person?
I think asking for

555
00:31:25,280 --> 00:31:29,120
recommendations publicly of like
have you worked with a reputable

556
00:31:29,120 --> 00:31:32,720
freelancer?
An agency in a similar field you

557
00:31:32,720 --> 00:31:35,560
will get people then pitching
themselves or people tagging

558
00:31:35,640 --> 00:31:37,960
their friends.
Like I accidentally did this the

559
00:31:37,960 --> 00:31:42,120
other day and kind of had like
50 comments on my LinkedIn for

560
00:31:42,120 --> 00:31:45,160
APR project that I was trying to
source a good freelancer for.

561
00:31:45,680 --> 00:31:50,240
But I think Germany there are
industry niche people and it's

562
00:31:50,360 --> 00:31:53,560
sort of asking if you're seeing
another content creator getting

563
00:31:53,560 --> 00:31:56,240
a lot of good press coverage.
I'd say like who are you working

564
00:31:56,240 --> 00:31:59,680
with or are you doing it
yourself and finding out that

565
00:31:59,680 --> 00:32:02,640
way?
Because more often than not as

566
00:32:02,640 --> 00:32:04,920
well, I I'm a big fan of the
geeks and their niche.

567
00:32:04,920 --> 00:32:08,320
I'm not a big fan of people with
huge followings because I don't

568
00:32:08,400 --> 00:32:11,360
necessarily think they're the
people giving the best service.

569
00:32:11,360 --> 00:32:15,320
So if APR person is too busy to
promote themselves on social

570
00:32:15,320 --> 00:32:18,200
media because they're working
with content creators, then I

571
00:32:18,200 --> 00:32:19,880
generally take that as a good
sign.

572
00:32:20,240 --> 00:32:23,200
And I know we have more people
wanting to ask questions.

573
00:32:23,200 --> 00:32:27,040
So thank you, Ralph, for yours.
And let's check in with Sid.

574
00:32:27,040 --> 00:32:29,760
Sid, good morning to you.
Good morning, everybody.

575
00:32:29,880 --> 00:32:32,360
Lucy, it's nice to see you.
Thanks for joining us today.

576
00:32:33,000 --> 00:32:35,480
I'm a geek in the niche, as you
said.

577
00:32:35,880 --> 00:32:38,760
My podcast is about office
furniture and the people that

578
00:32:38,760 --> 00:32:42,320
work in the office furniture
industry, predominantly in the

579
00:32:42,320 --> 00:32:46,000
United States.
And I'm curious if you could

580
00:32:46,000 --> 00:32:51,760
share your thoughts on why a
podcaster and how a podcaster or

581
00:32:51,760 --> 00:32:55,480
what a podcaster should use
subsec for.

582
00:32:56,000 --> 00:32:59,280
As in the office furniture space
or any podcast?

583
00:32:59,360 --> 00:33:02,440
Just in general, just in
general, as a podcaster, why?

584
00:33:02,680 --> 00:33:05,720
Why should we want to use Subsac
and how should we use Subsac?

585
00:33:06,440 --> 00:33:09,640
I think it's back to the
business girls question of do

586
00:33:09,640 --> 00:33:12,840
you want to monetize your
writing?

587
00:33:13,120 --> 00:33:16,720
Do you want to be taking your
podcast to a new audience?

588
00:33:16,720 --> 00:33:21,280
Because some people only use Sub
Stack for podcasting and they go

589
00:33:21,320 --> 00:33:25,400
live on there and they, I think
increasingly Sub Stack wants to

590
00:33:25,400 --> 00:33:27,760
be like a YouTube.
So they want to have live

591
00:33:27,760 --> 00:33:30,120
content on there.
They want to have people going

592
00:33:30,120 --> 00:33:32,760
live on there.
So I think one of the ways as a

593
00:33:32,760 --> 00:33:35,800
podcast you can do is
collaborate with other sub

594
00:33:35,800 --> 00:33:39,320
stackers to go live.
And they do have a nifty way of

595
00:33:39,720 --> 00:33:42,920
after you go live, it instantly
sets up as a post that you can

596
00:33:42,920 --> 00:33:46,120
then automatically send out to
your subscribers.

597
00:33:46,120 --> 00:33:48,720
And anybody who's following you
can get an alert that you've

598
00:33:48,720 --> 00:33:52,040
gone live.
So that's quite a nifty way to

599
00:33:52,040 --> 00:33:54,360
grow.
I guess I would almost throw it

600
00:33:54,360 --> 00:33:58,200
back to you to be like, is it
sub stack specifically or is it

601
00:33:58,200 --> 00:34:02,760
the newsletter format that you
want to be using to promote your

602
00:34:02,880 --> 00:34:05,280
podcast?
Because I I wouldn't necessarily

603
00:34:05,280 --> 00:34:08,960
advise a specific platform
unless I knew what it was that

604
00:34:08,960 --> 00:34:11,440
you wanted to achieve
personally.

605
00:34:12,040 --> 00:34:16,000
That's a really great question.
I've never been to sub stack so

606
00:34:16,000 --> 00:34:18,880
I hear people talk about it.
I don't really know the platform

607
00:34:18,880 --> 00:34:22,159
or what it's about.
And when I hear people say, oh,

608
00:34:22,159 --> 00:34:25,040
you should go check my sub
stack, my first thought is oh

609
00:34:25,040 --> 00:34:27,639
great, another platform for me
to have to figure out.

610
00:34:27,639 --> 00:34:32,880
But I published an episode I but
weekly should be a bi weekly

611
00:34:32,880 --> 00:34:34,880
show.
So every other week we publish

612
00:34:34,880 --> 00:34:37,560
an episode.
For now, I write for an industry

613
00:34:37,560 --> 00:34:39,800
magazine.
I do publish quite a bit of

614
00:34:39,800 --> 00:34:42,360
content, predominantly on
LinkedIn.

615
00:34:42,400 --> 00:34:46,120
So I mean I'm really active and
I don't know what my goal would

616
00:34:46,120 --> 00:34:49,960
be for going to sub stack.
I know what my podcast business

617
00:34:49,960 --> 00:34:53,760
goals are but I have no idea why
I would go to sub stacks since

618
00:34:53,760 --> 00:34:55,560
I've never been there and I
don't use the platform.

619
00:34:56,880 --> 00:34:58,760
I would say if you're already,
if you've already got your

620
00:34:58,760 --> 00:35:01,920
systems and processes in place
and you're already building

621
00:35:01,920 --> 00:35:05,240
nicely and you're growing your
audience, then I would stay with

622
00:35:05,240 --> 00:35:09,040
you where you are.
The only thing I would maybe

623
00:35:09,040 --> 00:35:13,240
suggest is I do think it is good
to be on on social media

624
00:35:13,240 --> 00:35:16,760
platforms, even if you're not
proactively using them, so that

625
00:35:16,760 --> 00:35:19,560
if your listeners or your
audience are on those social

626
00:35:19,560 --> 00:35:22,520
media platforms, they can tag
you and you can have reached.

627
00:35:22,520 --> 00:35:25,720
So I kind of liken it to like
billboarding.

628
00:35:25,720 --> 00:35:29,480
So I have like an Instagram
account for hype yourself, but

629
00:35:29,480 --> 00:35:31,160
it's literally just a billboard
account.

630
00:35:31,160 --> 00:35:33,600
But this is where you go for For
more information.

631
00:35:33,800 --> 00:35:37,720
So you could have a sub stack
account in the name of your

632
00:35:37,720 --> 00:35:40,960
podcast and you could maybe just
say like, you know, for recent

633
00:35:40,960 --> 00:35:45,080
episodes, you could come here If
you have a bit of extra time, it

634
00:35:45,080 --> 00:35:47,680
could be that you recycle some
of the posts on there and you

635
00:35:47,680 --> 00:35:51,720
just send out a newsletter once
a fortnight to people who maybe

636
00:35:51,720 --> 00:35:55,160
want to hear the episode via sub
Stack.

637
00:35:55,160 --> 00:35:58,520
And you could just promote a
link to it there and use it as

638
00:35:58,520 --> 00:36:00,600
another sort of social media
tool.

639
00:36:00,600 --> 00:36:03,120
Because for me, it is another
social media platform.

640
00:36:03,120 --> 00:36:06,120
So it's really how much time
you've got and whether your

641
00:36:06,120 --> 00:36:09,680
ideal audience is there.
But for me, when you're talking

642
00:36:09,680 --> 00:36:12,360
about office furniture and being
on LinkedIn, I'm like, it sounds

643
00:36:12,360 --> 00:36:15,080
to me like you've got the
audience match and the the

644
00:36:15,080 --> 00:36:18,000
platform quite well matched.
All right.

645
00:36:18,000 --> 00:36:20,960
So Sid, how do you feel?
Any other questions or shall I

646
00:36:20,960 --> 00:36:22,640
move on?
Just want to make sure you get.

647
00:36:22,640 --> 00:36:24,160
No, you can.
You can move on.

648
00:36:24,160 --> 00:36:25,400
Thank you, Mark.
Thank you, Lucy.

649
00:36:26,080 --> 00:36:29,760
Well, by the way, I should say,
if you're vibing with anything

650
00:36:29,760 --> 00:36:32,680
that Lucy's saying today and
you're interested in her

651
00:36:32,680 --> 00:36:37,000
newsletter, her books such as
Hype Yourself, Brand Yourself or

652
00:36:37,000 --> 00:36:41,600
No Nonsense PR, these are
perfect for you to get to know

653
00:36:41,600 --> 00:36:44,720
her a little bit better.
And we'll include all these show

654
00:36:44,720 --> 00:36:47,560
notes for you, all these in the
show notes for you.

655
00:36:47,920 --> 00:36:50,640
And of course, you can find out
everything that I've just

656
00:36:50,640 --> 00:36:54,400
mentioned and more over at
hypeyourself.com.

657
00:36:54,800 --> 00:36:57,880
Matt, good morning to you.
You had a question for Lucy.

658
00:36:58,200 --> 00:37:01,360
Good morning and hi, Lucy.
I want to take a bit of a

659
00:37:01,360 --> 00:37:03,680
different tack and move away
from the technical to something

660
00:37:03,680 --> 00:37:06,880
that you've mentioned a bit
earlier about kind of having

661
00:37:06,880 --> 00:37:10,320
different streams to share
different aspects of yourself to

662
00:37:10,560 --> 00:37:13,880
build that trust.
And it kind of connects to a lot

663
00:37:13,880 --> 00:37:15,360
of stuff.
I've been hearing from some

664
00:37:15,360 --> 00:37:19,160
particular people these days
that in particular SEO work,

665
00:37:19,520 --> 00:37:23,360
people are starting to divert to
AI to get rid of all of their

666
00:37:23,360 --> 00:37:27,120
SEM rush and AH refs
subscriptions and save 80 bucks

667
00:37:27,120 --> 00:37:30,760
a month because some guru on
LinkedIn gave them a very

668
00:37:30,760 --> 00:37:35,040
generic AI prompt.
But not realizing that ChatGPT

669
00:37:35,040 --> 00:37:38,480
doesn't have access to all the
information that these companies

670
00:37:38,480 --> 00:37:40,040
do.
I'm not going to ask you about

671
00:37:40,040 --> 00:37:45,920
SEO, but more so about how much
time and how deep people should

672
00:37:45,920 --> 00:37:49,400
be digging into themselves when
they're building their personal

673
00:37:49,400 --> 00:37:52,480
brand and setting up their feeds
that are business and then

674
00:37:52,720 --> 00:37:57,240
vanilla essence extract stuff.
And I guess how much they should

675
00:37:57,240 --> 00:38:00,280
be working with AI as a thought
partner to try and arrive at

676
00:38:00,280 --> 00:38:03,840
that stuff and what you'd
caution people not to do.

677
00:38:03,960 --> 00:38:06,400
I'm realizing this question is
incredibly loaded, so work with

678
00:38:06,400 --> 00:38:09,920
it how you prefer.
But how little people should be

679
00:38:10,160 --> 00:38:13,680
relying on AI for output about
their own personal brand and

680
00:38:13,680 --> 00:38:17,720
personal stories.
Actually, one of the kind of

681
00:38:17,720 --> 00:38:22,080
alternative subscriptions that I
advocate for is Apple News.

682
00:38:22,360 --> 00:38:26,640
Not to like read the news, but I
read Apple News every day and

683
00:38:26,640 --> 00:38:30,680
I'm constantly reading articles
about business owners, about

684
00:38:30,680 --> 00:38:34,080
creative entrepreneurs, and I'm
seeing the trends in there.

685
00:38:34,080 --> 00:38:38,200
And then that helps me with
ideas of things that I could be

686
00:38:38,200 --> 00:38:41,000
talking about.
And like you said, the problem

687
00:38:41,000 --> 00:38:45,280
with AI is it doesn't know what
your story is.

688
00:38:45,280 --> 00:38:49,720
So if you really wanted to get
into Forbes, for example, you

689
00:38:49,720 --> 00:38:54,000
could say what are the Forbes
contributors who, and you can go

690
00:38:54,000 --> 00:38:56,520
on to Forbes and you can see
like what the subcategories are.

691
00:38:56,520 --> 00:38:59,240
For example, you could say what
the Forbes contribute, who are

692
00:38:59,240 --> 00:39:02,560
the Forbes contributors who
write about small business,

693
00:39:02,600 --> 00:39:06,520
podcasts, creative
entrepreneurs, relocation, for

694
00:39:06,520 --> 00:39:09,720
example.
And then you could feed it like

695
00:39:09,720 --> 00:39:13,320
the last 20 headlines that those
journalists have written and

696
00:39:13,320 --> 00:39:16,560
say, do you could you help me
with an example of a headline

697
00:39:16,560 --> 00:39:20,160
that could work based on me?
And it probably can do an OK

698
00:39:20,160 --> 00:39:22,360
job.
But the issue is it's not going

699
00:39:22,360 --> 00:39:25,880
to know your story, all the
nuances about you and everything

700
00:39:25,880 --> 00:39:29,640
that's different.
So yes, you can use AI as a

701
00:39:29,640 --> 00:39:33,440
promotional personal branding
tool if you kind of know what

702
00:39:33,440 --> 00:39:35,880
the end destination is.
And I do think that that's very

703
00:39:35,880 --> 00:39:37,800
important.
And I think one of the things

704
00:39:38,560 --> 00:39:41,880
that people struggle with with
pitching is actually refining it

705
00:39:41,960 --> 00:39:44,520
into a way that the journalist
wants to receive it.

706
00:39:44,760 --> 00:39:49,560
So I would use AI at that end of
it, but at the creator end of it

707
00:39:49,560 --> 00:39:52,200
of like, what is my story?
What should I be sharing?

708
00:39:52,680 --> 00:39:55,440
It's I honestly think it's
consuming, which a kind of is

709
00:39:55,440 --> 00:39:57,080
alternative advice.
It was like you should be

710
00:39:57,080 --> 00:40:00,200
creating, not consuming.
But I disagree, particularly if

711
00:40:00,200 --> 00:40:03,880
you want to be on a particular
podcast, or you want to be

712
00:40:03,880 --> 00:40:06,320
featured in a particular
newsletter, or you want to be

713
00:40:06,320 --> 00:40:07,800
featured in a particular
magazine.

714
00:40:08,040 --> 00:40:11,520
Or a newspaper like have the
courtesy to actually understand

715
00:40:11,520 --> 00:40:14,920
what they talk about and we've
all seen this right We've all

716
00:40:14,920 --> 00:40:17,840
been on LinkedIn, accepted a
cold connection and then we've

717
00:40:17,840 --> 00:40:20,240
received a pitch.
You're like, this is nothing to

718
00:40:20,240 --> 00:40:23,560
do with what I do and I
unconnect immediately and then I

719
00:40:23,760 --> 00:40:28,240
don't have time for this.
Like this is so terrible versus

720
00:40:29,000 --> 00:40:32,400
I remember once I employed
somebody when I had my PR agency

721
00:40:32,400 --> 00:40:35,680
because they're like, hey, like
I've only worked in B2B, but I

722
00:40:35,680 --> 00:40:38,200
can see you're working with
these consumer brands and I

723
00:40:38,200 --> 00:40:39,680
really want to move into that
space.

724
00:40:39,680 --> 00:40:41,440
And here's how I can apply my
skills.

725
00:40:41,440 --> 00:40:44,920
And This is why I think I would
fit really well in your team.

726
00:40:45,240 --> 00:40:47,800
And I was like, honestly, that
I'd had so many people who kind

727
00:40:47,800 --> 00:40:50,320
of sent blank CVS being like, if
there's a job opening here you

728
00:40:50,320 --> 00:40:52,320
are.
She didn't even send me ACV.

729
00:40:52,320 --> 00:40:56,720
It was just a bespoke e-mail.
And I think there's a lot to be

730
00:40:56,720 --> 00:40:59,760
said that it's the same with the
press.

731
00:40:59,760 --> 00:41:02,040
The problem with the press
releases, it doesn't tell the

732
00:41:02,040 --> 00:41:04,680
person what the story is really
or how they can use it.

733
00:41:04,680 --> 00:41:07,600
Like if you sent me a press
release about your book, I've

734
00:41:07,600 --> 00:41:10,760
then got to read what the press
releases to figure out how it's

735
00:41:10,760 --> 00:41:14,680
going to fit into my world.
Versus if you go, hey, I see

736
00:41:14,680 --> 00:41:17,920
sometimes on your Instagram you
talk about books or in your hype

737
00:41:17,920 --> 00:41:21,200
monthly, you could include links
to stuff that you've read or

738
00:41:21,200 --> 00:41:24,720
seen with this fit for it,
you've already done the job for

739
00:41:24,720 --> 00:41:27,520
me.
I think AI can maybe help with

740
00:41:27,520 --> 00:41:30,000
the shaping of where that could
go at the ending.

741
00:41:30,000 --> 00:41:33,960
But when you start listening,
reading, watching, you really

742
00:41:33,960 --> 00:41:37,920
get a feel for the types of the
stories that these outlets are

743
00:41:37,920 --> 00:41:42,200
interested in.
And I guess my biggest hack in

744
00:41:42,200 --> 00:41:44,680
terms of like press, there's two
things.

745
00:41:44,680 --> 00:41:49,880
One is the hashtag journal
request or Harrow Harrow helper

746
00:41:49,880 --> 00:41:53,400
reporter out because it's much
easier to get into press if a

747
00:41:53,400 --> 00:41:56,920
journalist is putting out a
story and you're responding to

748
00:41:56,920 --> 00:42:00,200
it.
Second of all, I love submitting

749
00:42:00,200 --> 00:42:03,480
opinion pieces.
So if you see a topic in the

750
00:42:03,480 --> 00:42:07,720
news or in ATV show or an awards
red carpet and you think I've

751
00:42:07,720 --> 00:42:11,960
got an opinion on that, you can
literally Google how to submit

752
00:42:11,960 --> 00:42:15,880
an opinion piece to the New York
Times, The Washington Post, like

753
00:42:15,880 --> 00:42:19,040
Modern Love, The Guardian, The
Times, like whichever your

754
00:42:19,040 --> 00:42:21,640
outlet is.
And it will pull out what the

755
00:42:21,640 --> 00:42:24,640
requirements are, what the
submission details are, how to

756
00:42:24,640 --> 00:42:27,880
get in there.
And you could then maybe work

757
00:42:27,880 --> 00:42:29,960
with AI to tailor your answer to
that.

758
00:42:30,240 --> 00:42:32,800
But the original creative that's
got to come from you.

759
00:42:33,080 --> 00:42:36,080
That's really great to hear, but
the follow up quickly that I'd

760
00:42:36,080 --> 00:42:40,120
have to that is just to ask if
you've splashed out on your own,

761
00:42:40,120 --> 00:42:42,280
you're doing your own thing with
the hype and everything around

762
00:42:42,280 --> 00:42:44,480
that in exploring your own
story.

763
00:42:44,720 --> 00:42:48,520
Like the line on your website I
think is I'm going to read it

764
00:42:48,520 --> 00:42:50,880
now because I don't think it's
been read on here yet.

765
00:42:51,400 --> 00:42:53,800
It made me stop and do all the
things that you're talking

766
00:42:53,800 --> 00:42:55,040
about.
I think so.

767
00:42:55,040 --> 00:42:57,000
This where you introduce
yourself.

768
00:42:57,400 --> 00:43:00,720
Hiya, I'm Lucy, the author of
three books and Co founder of

769
00:43:00,720 --> 00:43:04,280
Three Children with a 20 plus
year career for some of London's

770
00:43:04,280 --> 00:43:05,960
top creative agencies and
startups.

771
00:43:06,480 --> 00:43:11,120
It does all the things in
marketing so well where it leads

772
00:43:11,120 --> 00:43:13,880
off with personality.
There's a disruptive hook right

773
00:43:13,880 --> 00:43:16,600
in the middle that if you pass
over too quickly, you're kind of

774
00:43:16,600 --> 00:43:18,760
like, hang on, I got to go back
and read that again.

775
00:43:19,480 --> 00:43:22,960
All that is super clever, but I
think it's deploying what you

776
00:43:22,960 --> 00:43:25,880
know incredibly well about
marketing and PR, but at the

777
00:43:25,880 --> 00:43:29,440
same time knowing a lot about
yourself, because that sentence,

778
00:43:29,440 --> 00:43:33,160
Co founder of three children,
says a lot more about you than

779
00:43:33,160 --> 00:43:35,200
the rest of the the sentence
does.

780
00:43:35,560 --> 00:43:39,800
So how much internal exploring
when you were coming to approach

781
00:43:39,800 --> 00:43:44,040
hype yourself, did you do like
you were journal or are you,

782
00:43:44,680 --> 00:43:46,840
have you been in a bunch of
conversations with podcasters

783
00:43:46,840 --> 00:43:50,520
and kind of reflected back to
them and discovered it that way?

784
00:43:50,520 --> 00:43:54,480
How did you do it?
I think honestly, part of it is

785
00:43:54,480 --> 00:43:58,760
looking at my competitive set
and then going what makes me

786
00:43:58,760 --> 00:44:01,000
different?
Because there's lots of personal

787
00:44:01,000 --> 00:44:05,360
brand or PR or visibility
strategists and maybe, you know,

788
00:44:05,480 --> 00:44:08,920
having three children doesn't
necessarily make it different.

789
00:44:09,120 --> 00:44:12,400
That line actually came because
I used to run my PR and branding

790
00:44:12,400 --> 00:44:15,720
agency with my husband, but it
was my agency, it was my name on

791
00:44:15,720 --> 00:44:17,860
the door.
So I didn't want to give him Co

792
00:44:17,860 --> 00:44:21,120
founder of the business.
So I gave him Co founder of the

793
00:44:21,120 --> 00:44:25,160
children as his job.
So, so that's where it started

794
00:44:25,160 --> 00:44:27,280
from.
But it does make people giggle.

795
00:44:27,280 --> 00:44:31,800
And I guess one of my values, so
I talk a lot about if you're

796
00:44:31,800 --> 00:44:33,720
starting out your personal
brand, kind of know what your

797
00:44:33,720 --> 00:44:36,240
values are is fun.
You know, I'm fun.

798
00:44:36,240 --> 00:44:38,880
I'm also quite direct and
sometimes those can both

799
00:44:38,880 --> 00:44:41,520
backfire in me as well.
But if you know upfront that

800
00:44:41,520 --> 00:44:43,920
that's what you're going to get,
you know, I'm going to punch you

801
00:44:43,920 --> 00:44:46,000
in the face, but make a good
joke and cuddle with you

802
00:44:46,000 --> 00:44:48,920
afterwards, you know, then it's
a little bit easier.

803
00:44:49,160 --> 00:44:50,760
Thank you for the compliment
about the writing.

804
00:44:50,960 --> 00:44:53,640
The website is quite new, so I
was a little bit nervous when

805
00:44:53,640 --> 00:44:55,480
you started to say you were
going to read from the website

806
00:44:55,480 --> 00:44:58,440
because I know there's lots of
breaking links and typos on

807
00:44:58,440 --> 00:45:00,160
there.
We're still, I'm still bedding

808
00:45:00,160 --> 00:45:04,520
in, but I think it is honestly
just kind of writing down all of

809
00:45:04,520 --> 00:45:06,680
the things that makes you
different from any of your

810
00:45:06,680 --> 00:45:08,560
competitors.
Like what can you talk about

811
00:45:08,560 --> 00:45:10,160
that none of them can talk
about?

812
00:45:10,640 --> 00:45:14,440
And not just this is my
signature process.

813
00:45:14,720 --> 00:45:17,560
Like it's you.
That's what makes you different.

814
00:45:17,560 --> 00:45:20,480
That is actually why someone's
going to buy from you and not AI

815
00:45:20,480 --> 00:45:23,880
because they like how they feel
in your company.

816
00:45:24,320 --> 00:45:27,880
The similar thing happens in the
podcast production space where

817
00:45:28,840 --> 00:45:31,120
people want to sell their
services, so they say everything

818
00:45:31,120 --> 00:45:34,040
that they do that's exactly the
same as every other podcast

819
00:45:34,160 --> 00:45:37,000
producer does.
But having the story in there a

820
00:45:37,000 --> 00:45:40,800
little bit about you that makes
you unique and makes that person

821
00:45:40,800 --> 00:45:43,400
double take on a sentence like
that is really good.

822
00:45:43,400 --> 00:45:45,680
No, I think that's it's so
excellent.

823
00:45:45,800 --> 00:45:50,720
And I'm always, with what I do
in the podcasting space, A

824
00:45:50,720 --> 00:45:54,600
proponent for reflection and for
people to reflect and re reflect

825
00:45:54,600 --> 00:45:59,040
and not just pump stuff out
there necessarily, but to think

826
00:45:59,040 --> 00:46:02,880
about how someone looks at that
feels and then think about that

827
00:46:02,880 --> 00:46:05,600
person recommending to the next
person and see what they think.

828
00:46:05,960 --> 00:46:09,320
And even if it's just in a
vacuum, like you get to a

829
00:46:09,320 --> 00:46:12,480
sentence like this, I think we
could spend the last 10 minutes

830
00:46:13,360 --> 00:46:15,400
unpacking what that sentence
means to me.

831
00:46:15,400 --> 00:46:17,720
But I think that might be a
waste of time just because

832
00:46:18,200 --> 00:46:20,840
there's so much value to.
Say for everyone else, I did not

833
00:46:20,840 --> 00:46:23,960
plant Matt as a as a hype
yourself cheerleaders right in

834
00:46:24,000 --> 00:46:26,000
the realistic we've never spoken
for today.

835
00:46:26,000 --> 00:46:28,240
I will send the cheque in the
post after the recording.

836
00:46:28,360 --> 00:46:31,440
Thank you.
What you can do is add that call

837
00:46:31,440 --> 00:46:33,800
to the website if you need a
testimonial for your.

838
00:46:33,960 --> 00:46:36,920
Work it is.
Thank you.

839
00:46:37,480 --> 00:46:41,320
You know, Speaking of unique and
doing your own thing, I had to.

840
00:46:41,320 --> 00:46:43,880
I have to bring this up because
you shared this with me in our

841
00:46:43,880 --> 00:46:47,360
pre interview.
You once commissioned a dress.

842
00:46:48,800 --> 00:46:50,800
Yeah.
It's over here a very specific

843
00:46:50,800 --> 00:46:54,640
dress and I was wondering if you
would share about that and also

844
00:46:54,640 --> 00:46:57,680
what's the takeaways for
creators from that kind of

845
00:46:57,680 --> 00:47:02,560
creative promo?
So I was going to be on stage at

846
00:47:02,560 --> 00:47:05,200
an event in London.
I don't get out very much

847
00:47:05,200 --> 00:47:07,560
anymore.
The three kids, the Royal France

848
00:47:07,560 --> 00:47:10,000
situation, being the main driver
of that.

849
00:47:10,960 --> 00:47:15,840
And the talk was going to be how
to bring your digital brand to

850
00:47:15,840 --> 00:47:19,840
life.
And I thought, I have a business

851
00:47:19,840 --> 00:47:22,240
where I teach people how to
promote themselves.

852
00:47:22,240 --> 00:47:25,640
And I also had a lot of stock,
which is on my desk here of

853
00:47:25,640 --> 00:47:27,320
these cards.
If you're on video, you can see

854
00:47:27,320 --> 00:47:29,520
it.
They were called the 52 PR tips

855
00:47:29,520 --> 00:47:32,640
and they were 52 prompts.
And it was, I kind of had lots

856
00:47:32,640 --> 00:47:34,440
of old stock.
And I thought, what can I do

857
00:47:34,440 --> 00:47:36,520
with these?
Like I didn't want to just walk

858
00:47:36,520 --> 00:47:39,320
around the event.
And no shade to anybody who's

859
00:47:39,320 --> 00:47:40,360
done this.
I just didn't want to walk

860
00:47:40,360 --> 00:47:43,680
around the event with like
postcards with a QR code or

861
00:47:43,880 --> 00:47:46,480
something on, like I wanted to
do something that really brought

862
00:47:46,480 --> 00:47:49,560
it to life.
And I really love Repo's Drag

863
00:47:49,560 --> 00:47:51,080
Race.
I really love drag Queens.

864
00:47:51,080 --> 00:47:54,640
I really love Repo's Drag Race
as an example of marketing and

865
00:47:54,640 --> 00:47:56,680
branding.
I could actually do an episode

866
00:47:56,680 --> 00:47:59,960
on that on the repeat
catchphrases, the repeat

867
00:47:59,960 --> 00:48:02,600
formula, how it's not changed in
17 seats.

868
00:48:02,920 --> 00:48:05,240
Anyway, I could digress.
I won't.

869
00:48:05,760 --> 00:48:10,400
I do love the drag community and
I thought I can't ever be on

870
00:48:10,400 --> 00:48:13,640
that show because I have no
skills that would make me viable

871
00:48:13,640 --> 00:48:17,280
for it.
But I could Commission a drug

872
00:48:17,840 --> 00:48:21,920
queen or king seamstress to make
me a dress out of these cards.

873
00:48:21,920 --> 00:48:26,080
So I drafted a sketch, spoke to
a friend who's a drag queen and

874
00:48:26,080 --> 00:48:28,560
said do you know anyone that
could make me a costume?

875
00:48:29,000 --> 00:48:35,600
And it was 500 bucks to get the
dress made and it was basically

876
00:48:35,960 --> 00:48:38,800
a big sort of puff ball dress.
I can send a photo after it for

877
00:48:38,800 --> 00:48:40,040
the show.
Yes, please do.

878
00:48:40,040 --> 00:48:41,960
I do.
I was actually sitting here

879
00:48:41,960 --> 00:48:44,560
frantically Googling it to see
if I could find a picture.

880
00:48:44,720 --> 00:48:48,240
I think it's on my Instagram.
I can run over to my my shelf

881
00:48:48,320 --> 00:48:51,240
quickly and they grab it.
And basically the dress was like

882
00:48:51,520 --> 00:48:53,760
lots of bulldog clips with the
cards attached.

883
00:48:53,760 --> 00:48:57,000
So the idea was as I was walking
around, I could be like, hey,

884
00:48:57,000 --> 00:49:00,560
what color card do you want?
And show you a card from the

885
00:49:00,560 --> 00:49:02,280
dress And then you would keep
it.

886
00:49:02,280 --> 00:49:05,560
It would have your PR prompt
that you've chosen kind of like

887
00:49:05,560 --> 00:49:09,000
a kooky astrology reader for PR
advice, I guess is where I was

888
00:49:09,000 --> 00:49:12,320
sort of going.
And then I had QR code stickers

889
00:49:12,320 --> 00:49:15,480
for the cards, which gave you a
discount to my newsletter.

890
00:49:15,920 --> 00:49:18,520
And my thinking was I get
photographed in the dress at

891
00:49:18,520 --> 00:49:20,960
this event and then give the
cards out.

892
00:49:20,960 --> 00:49:25,640
Unfortunately, I basically got
not COVID, but like the post flu

893
00:49:25,640 --> 00:49:28,760
after COVID thing that kind of
went around, you know, everyone,

894
00:49:28,760 --> 00:49:31,160
we suddenly all got taken out by
this horrific winter fleet.

895
00:49:31,280 --> 00:49:34,440
So we didn't make it.
So I ended up launching it just

896
00:49:34,440 --> 00:49:38,160
live online and sharing it.
And then I was doing like a live

897
00:49:38,200 --> 00:49:41,760
session where I was giving you
live PR tip readings from my

898
00:49:41,760 --> 00:49:45,720
dress and just plucking cards
off top or bottom to go live.

899
00:49:45,720 --> 00:49:48,720
And actually I've still got paid
subscribers from that live

900
00:49:48,800 --> 00:49:51,000
event.
He came, he just stumbled upon

901
00:49:51,000 --> 00:49:54,880
me during this live on sub stack
and then discovered me and came

902
00:49:54,880 --> 00:49:57,920
and joined the newsletter.
So for me, I was like, why would

903
00:49:57,920 --> 00:50:03,480
I spend £500 in maybe paying for
advertising when I can create

904
00:50:03,480 --> 00:50:07,480
something that's my own that
shows my unique personality, my

905
00:50:07,480 --> 00:50:09,760
flair, the things I like and I
can talk about it.

906
00:50:09,760 --> 00:50:11,640
And actually Mark is a good
reminder.

907
00:50:11,640 --> 00:50:14,160
I'm like, that dress is never
going to get old.

908
00:50:14,160 --> 00:50:16,280
The only thing that can happen
is I'm going to grow out of it.

909
00:50:16,280 --> 00:50:18,120
But I'm not planning on having
any more children.

910
00:50:18,120 --> 00:50:21,040
So I should hopefully still fit
into it for a while.

911
00:50:21,480 --> 00:50:24,200
And the beauty is that you can
unclip the card.

912
00:50:24,200 --> 00:50:27,320
So I can always, if I, because
I've got the rebrand now, I

913
00:50:27,320 --> 00:50:30,840
might make new prompt cards and
then I can redo it.

914
00:50:30,840 --> 00:50:33,880
But it's very heavy and it's
definitely not for provincial

915
00:50:33,880 --> 00:50:36,440
summer weather.
It's definitely AUK London

916
00:50:36,440 --> 00:50:39,280
dress.
It's too hot to wear here.

917
00:50:39,280 --> 00:50:42,040
It's very heavy.
Well, I have found that link,

918
00:50:42,040 --> 00:50:44,600
I've shared it here live on
Clubhouse and we will share it

919
00:50:44,600 --> 00:50:47,760
in the show notes as well.
Your Instagram picture of that.

920
00:50:47,760 --> 00:50:50,720
Yes.
And what's, what's the take away

921
00:50:50,720 --> 00:50:55,000
for creators, you know, using
that story, You know, how do we

922
00:50:55,000 --> 00:50:57,960
apply something like that as a
podcaster?

923
00:50:57,960 --> 00:51:01,360
How do I apply something like
that as a creative promo for

924
00:51:01,360 --> 00:51:02,960
what I'm doing?
Yeah.

925
00:51:02,960 --> 00:51:07,240
Do you think I think, do things
differently and how can you do

926
00:51:07,240 --> 00:51:09,480
it in a way that feels good to
you, Right.

927
00:51:09,480 --> 00:51:12,920
So for some of you, probably a
lot of the men, you're not going

928
00:51:12,920 --> 00:51:16,440
to want to wear a dress made out
of prompt cards that promote

929
00:51:16,440 --> 00:51:20,760
what your service does.
But maybe you actually love

930
00:51:20,760 --> 00:51:23,720
magazines and you want to create
a Zine that you could leave in

931
00:51:23,720 --> 00:51:30,120
your local coffee shops.
Or maybe you really like to do

932
00:51:30,120 --> 00:51:33,680
in person events so you can
actually host a kind of annual

933
00:51:33,680 --> 00:51:37,000
podcast celebration to celebrate
your podcast.

934
00:51:37,000 --> 00:51:40,000
Like maybe there's something
that you do in your podcast or

935
00:51:40,000 --> 00:51:42,240
something about your product or
service.

936
00:51:42,400 --> 00:51:44,240
For me, it was like, how can I
bring it to life?

937
00:51:44,240 --> 00:51:47,760
How can I visually bring it to
life in a way that matches my

938
00:51:47,760 --> 00:51:51,480
values that I kind of was like,
I'm going to, you know, I'm

939
00:51:51,480 --> 00:51:53,920
going to give myself 1000 LB
marketing budget.

940
00:51:53,920 --> 00:51:56,640
What can I do?
There was a brand in there.

941
00:51:56,640 --> 00:51:59,280
It's actually UK based one.
It was a dating app called

942
00:51:59,280 --> 00:52:01,120
Thursday.
And they used to send the intern

943
00:52:01,120 --> 00:52:05,560
out every Thursday with 25 bucks
to be like do a stunt and say

944
00:52:05,720 --> 00:52:08,680
once they bought like a
projector and projected onto the

945
00:52:08,680 --> 00:52:11,520
advertising on the tube or
another time they stood with a

946
00:52:11,520 --> 00:52:15,000
sandwich board outside like a
mainline train station.

947
00:52:15,000 --> 00:52:17,880
So I think it's always
challenging yourself, like if I

948
00:52:17,880 --> 00:52:20,440
only had 50 lbs, what could I
do?

949
00:52:20,440 --> 00:52:24,000
But if I suddenly give myself a
marketing budget of £500,

950
00:52:24,160 --> 00:52:26,200
because then when I spent that
money, I was like, that's my

951
00:52:26,200 --> 00:52:27,840
money.
That is money I could have spent

952
00:52:27,840 --> 00:52:30,000
on groceries.
Now I've got to make sure I'm

953
00:52:30,000 --> 00:52:33,440
really promoting the hell out of
that stunt to make sure I'm

954
00:52:33,680 --> 00:52:37,520
bringing the, you know, the the
value back in.

955
00:52:37,640 --> 00:52:41,360
I also just think there's a lot
to be said for creating surprise

956
00:52:41,360 --> 00:52:44,520
and delight moments for your
audience and doing things in

957
00:52:44,520 --> 00:52:46,960
real life.
So finding a way that feels good

958
00:52:46,960 --> 00:52:50,440
to you to take what you do and
put it in a place where it

959
00:52:50,440 --> 00:52:51,960
doesn't belong.
Yeah.

960
00:52:51,960 --> 00:52:54,160
Thank you for that.
And Matt, I see you have a

961
00:52:54,160 --> 00:52:55,880
follow up.
I see Alex had a question as

962
00:52:55,880 --> 00:52:57,280
well.
Go for it, Matt, and we'll check

963
00:52:57,280 --> 00:52:59,520
in with Alex.
So all that stuff is really

964
00:52:59,520 --> 00:53:03,040
great and I've been
unfortunately, a hyper consumer

965
00:53:03,040 --> 00:53:06,400
of Rory Sutherland's content.
I'm not sure if you're familiar

966
00:53:06,400 --> 00:53:08,240
with him, Lucy, but.
Yeah, yeah, I know, Rory.

967
00:53:08,920 --> 00:53:11,160
I guess you kind of have to when
you're working in a similar

968
00:53:11,160 --> 00:53:16,680
space, but being a proponent of
someone who of the idea of

969
00:53:16,680 --> 00:53:19,320
marketing being something
different and changing the

970
00:53:19,320 --> 00:53:24,120
context to what not everybody
else does is one of the biggest

971
00:53:24,120 --> 00:53:27,080
things to work that I think is
important to stand out.

972
00:53:27,360 --> 00:53:29,880
So it may not be a dress like
I've already seen some of the

973
00:53:29,880 --> 00:53:31,720
lads in the chat and clubhouse
going.

974
00:53:32,200 --> 00:53:36,280
You'll see my next dress at the
next event or whatever, but the

975
00:53:36,280 --> 00:53:38,880
trick is to think differently.
And the, and the major example I

976
00:53:38,880 --> 00:53:42,880
hear from Rory most often is
when people try to improve the

977
00:53:42,880 --> 00:53:46,560
train system in England.
They talk about how they can

978
00:53:46,560 --> 00:53:49,480
spend billions of dollars to
make it 10 minutes faster and

979
00:53:49,480 --> 00:53:52,400
get everyone there quicker.
Whereas if you change your

980
00:53:52,400 --> 00:53:55,360
thinking and you improve the
experience on the train by

981
00:53:55,360 --> 00:53:59,440
providing champagne and high
quality Wi-Fi access, people

982
00:53:59,440 --> 00:54:03,720
would prefer and be happy to sit
on the train for longer, which

983
00:54:03,720 --> 00:54:06,680
is a different approach to
solving the same problem.

984
00:54:07,000 --> 00:54:10,720
And I think for everybody who
has a podcast or a brand or

985
00:54:10,720 --> 00:54:14,000
something they're looking to do,
that thinking is how you get

986
00:54:14,000 --> 00:54:15,800
there.
But the problem is the

987
00:54:15,800 --> 00:54:19,000
communities in podcasting
particularly, they tend to push

988
00:54:19,000 --> 00:54:21,480
the same stuff.
And if you're doing what

989
00:54:21,480 --> 00:54:24,240
everyone else is doing, there's
a lot of competition.

990
00:54:24,400 --> 00:54:27,800
But if you're doing something
different, then you're going to

991
00:54:27,800 --> 00:54:29,680
stand out.
And I think that's something of

992
00:54:29,680 --> 00:54:33,400
like what this dress does or is
Zen in a mailbox or, you know,

993
00:54:33,600 --> 00:54:38,160
something that is direct for
somebody but is different than

994
00:54:38,160 --> 00:54:39,920
what anyone else in your niche
might be doing.

995
00:54:40,440 --> 00:54:42,680
There's no question there.
I just wanted to applaud you for

996
00:54:42,760 --> 00:54:44,560
the dress, really in a very long
way.

997
00:54:46,840 --> 00:54:49,120
Thanks, Matt.
And here's what we'll do.

998
00:54:49,120 --> 00:54:52,680
I'm going to go to Alex and then
I have one final question after

999
00:54:52,680 --> 00:54:54,440
Alex.
So good morning to you, Alex.

1000
00:54:54,440 --> 00:54:56,200
What?
What's your question for Lucy?

1001
00:54:56,520 --> 00:54:59,280
I'm a little upset because you
stole my dress idea.

1002
00:54:59,520 --> 00:55:03,440
I have all planned out with my
daughter that we actually do

1003
00:55:03,600 --> 00:55:07,760
baseball shirts that are hot
tank for that same reason, but

1004
00:55:07,760 --> 00:55:12,960
not to get the fall that you do.
I just love how what's old is

1005
00:55:12,960 --> 00:55:16,520
new and what's new is old with
your approach, you know, hearing

1006
00:55:16,520 --> 00:55:19,360
the word Zen, I haven't heard
that since the the late 90s.

1007
00:55:19,480 --> 00:55:23,440
And it's great to hear that.
You need to kind of figure out

1008
00:55:23,440 --> 00:55:28,160
your way, but look back at what
you used to do and try to have

1009
00:55:28,160 --> 00:55:32,600
that independent mindset to try
to bet on yourself or whatever

1010
00:55:32,600 --> 00:55:34,600
you want to call it.
Because I just find that so

1011
00:55:34,600 --> 00:55:38,640
unique when you're in a, in a
space that is so cluttered,

1012
00:55:38,640 --> 00:55:41,680
everybody's trying to be unique.
And it's great to see that

1013
00:55:41,680 --> 00:55:43,680
somebody's unique, actually
unique.

1014
00:55:43,840 --> 00:55:45,560
Thank you, Alex, appreciate
that.

1015
00:55:45,560 --> 00:55:48,040
And I agree, this has been a
joy.

1016
00:55:48,040 --> 00:55:52,040
And I want to wrap up with this
question.

1017
00:55:52,080 --> 00:55:55,080
So also something we talked
about in our pre interview,

1018
00:55:55,080 --> 00:56:00,160
Lucy, you talked about that idea
of still wanting to be the

1019
00:56:00,160 --> 00:56:05,040
popular kid sometimes, right?
Yeah, a lot of creators, I

1020
00:56:05,040 --> 00:56:08,240
believe, feel that way.
So how do you how do you

1021
00:56:08,240 --> 00:56:12,640
navigate those moments?
I think it's two ways.

1022
00:56:12,680 --> 00:56:16,160
One is therapy.
I'm not even joking.

1023
00:56:16,160 --> 00:56:18,000
No, I'm not even joking a little
bit on that.

1024
00:56:18,000 --> 00:56:21,720
No, I think, you know, there's
there's creators that I've

1025
00:56:21,720 --> 00:56:25,440
looked up to for the follower
numbers and then you get to

1026
00:56:25,440 --> 00:56:28,360
connect with them and then you
realize there's a lot of smoke

1027
00:56:28,360 --> 00:56:31,200
and mirrors or this can creators
that you looked up to.

1028
00:56:31,280 --> 00:56:33,640
They've got a lot of followers.
You get to know them and you

1029
00:56:33,640 --> 00:56:37,120
realize they're battling just
the same amount of demons as as

1030
00:56:37,120 --> 00:56:39,080
everybody else.
And I think it's important to

1031
00:56:39,080 --> 00:56:43,520
remember as much as I do try and
show up authentically and be my

1032
00:56:43,520 --> 00:56:47,120
real self, it's still not it's
still not the real me that

1033
00:56:47,120 --> 00:56:50,480
you're seeing.
And yes, it might let, I've got

1034
00:56:50,480 --> 00:56:54,040
a successful paid newsletter,
but the things that I did to get

1035
00:56:54,040 --> 00:56:57,120
here are maybe not something
that you would want to do.

1036
00:56:57,400 --> 00:57:01,160
And ultimately when I am in the
cool club, because sometimes I

1037
00:57:01,160 --> 00:57:04,840
get invited into a cool space, I
get there and I realized I don't

1038
00:57:04,840 --> 00:57:07,320
actually like it anyway.
I that's why I don't work for

1039
00:57:07,320 --> 00:57:10,080
somebody else.
That is why I work remotely from

1040
00:57:10,080 --> 00:57:13,080
rural fronts.
And I'm getting excited about

1041
00:57:13,080 --> 00:57:15,880
the rain because now maybe I can
go mushroom picking again.

1042
00:57:16,160 --> 00:57:19,640
You know, I'm really leaning
into the more kind of weird

1043
00:57:19,720 --> 00:57:22,160
person that I am.
But the more that I share that,

1044
00:57:22,160 --> 00:57:26,280
the more I share what I like,
who I like, what I like doing,

1045
00:57:26,600 --> 00:57:28,760
the better the relationships
are.

1046
00:57:28,760 --> 00:57:32,320
And ultimately it's never the
cool kids at school at one.

1047
00:57:32,360 --> 00:57:34,680
It's like, you know, Napoleon
Dynamite was right.

1048
00:57:34,680 --> 00:57:36,160
The you know, the geeks will
win.

1049
00:57:36,560 --> 00:57:41,520
And I think my biggest advice
for anyone is consistency, which

1050
00:57:41,520 --> 00:57:44,280
is really boring.
And geeks are great at that.

1051
00:57:44,280 --> 00:57:46,120
The cool piss.
The cool kids aren't because

1052
00:57:46,120 --> 00:57:49,760
they're moving with the trends.
So consistency and a health

1053
00:57:49,760 --> 00:57:53,680
amount of delusion, like I think
being quite completely deluded

1054
00:57:53,680 --> 00:57:56,760
about what you can achieve and
running really hard for it is a

1055
00:57:56,760 --> 00:57:59,240
great activity.
Yeah, I love that.

1056
00:57:59,280 --> 00:58:01,040
Thank you.
I think that's a great way to

1057
00:58:01,040 --> 00:58:03,200
wrap up too.
And I do want to remind the

1058
00:58:03,200 --> 00:58:06,680
audience here, go check out
hypeyourself.com if you want to

1059
00:58:06,680 --> 00:58:09,120
learn more about Lucy, if you
want to subscribe to that

1060
00:58:09,120 --> 00:58:12,200
newsletter, if you want to get
one of her books or maybe even

1061
00:58:12,200 --> 00:58:16,040
take her course if you want to
join her on one of her 2026

1062
00:58:16,040 --> 00:58:18,480
retreats.
She's got a lot going on.

1063
00:58:19,040 --> 00:58:22,360
So please go to
hypeyourself.com, check it out,

1064
00:58:22,360 --> 00:58:24,280
and let's give Lucy some
support.

1065
00:58:24,440 --> 00:58:27,000
Lucy, welcome to the community
and thank you for being.

1066
00:58:27,000 --> 00:58:29,200
Here today.
Can I come back?

1067
00:58:29,200 --> 00:58:30,760
This is great.
Anytime.

1068
00:58:30,760 --> 00:58:33,400
I mean, the timing works better
for you than it does a lot of

1069
00:58:33,400 --> 00:58:36,120
our guests.
So you're welcome here anytime.

1070
00:58:36,120 --> 00:58:38,640
Come join us actually on the
Clubhouse platform.

1071
00:58:39,120 --> 00:58:42,040
Yeah, yeah, I was going to say
next time I can wear the dress.

1072
00:58:42,040 --> 00:58:44,520
Yeah, so, well, then we'll have
to have you on Riverside then

1073
00:58:44,520 --> 00:58:49,040
for that.
Thank you so much, Lucy Werner,

1074
00:58:49,040 --> 00:58:52,560
and thank you to the whole team
for asking your great questions

1075
00:58:52,560 --> 00:58:54,960
as well.
We are back tomorrow, 7:00 AM

1076
00:58:54,960 --> 00:58:57,840
Eastern live on Clubhouse,
YouTube, Facebook, all the

1077
00:58:57,840 --> 00:58:59,440
things.
So come join us there.

1078
00:58:59,440 --> 00:59:04,240
And if you need that info, just
go to podcastingmorningchat.com.

1079
00:59:04,400 --> 00:59:07,280
So until tomorrow, make it a
great day everybody.

1080
00:59:07,560 --> 00:59:08,000
Take care.