428 - Why Some Podcasts are Impossible to Stop Listening To

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Good morning podcasting.
Morning Chat.

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Today is Monday, January 5th,
2020, Sixth and Today Obsession

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Worthy podcast, Normal Gossip
and the repeatable storytelling

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framework behind its bingeable,
Trustworthy and Listener

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Connection podcast.
So if you're listening live on

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Clubhouse, hit the share button,
bottom left hand side of the

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screen and share it.
However, Clubhouse lets you.

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And if you're catching us via
podcast chatter, YouTube, please

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share this with a fellow
podcaster.

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And now give us about 30 seconds
and we'll get things rolling.

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Happy New Year.
Good morning again podcasting

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morning chat.
Thank you for being here and

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again Happy New Year.
I am your host Mark Ronick and

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currently on stage with me.
My Co hosts we have Ralph Estep,

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Dr. Faye, Nick Naulback, Sid
Meadows, producer Ashley Feller,

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Jonathan Howard and BC Babbles.
It's a full house today and of

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course, a good morning, an
official good morning to Tim.

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I think I've said good morning
to everybody before we got

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started, but an official good
morning to Tim, who's in the

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audience as well.
Before I jump into the heart of

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today's show and hand the baton
to Jonathan, Of course, I will

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be participating heavily with
Jonathan, but I do have a couple

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things I wanted to share with
you before we get started.

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First, we have a podcasting
morning chat anniversary that's

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coming up.
Does anybody here know how long

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it's been since we started?
Since I rebooted?

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Because podcasting morning chat
was a thing on Clubhouse for a

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while and then it went away and
then I rebooted it with the help

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of Pedro.
Ashley has a guest.

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Go ahead, Ashley.
My guess is 2021.

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OK, Ashley says 2021.
Anyone else have a guess?

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OK well Ashley you are a year
off.

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It was 2022.
So we've been doing the live

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Monday through Friday show for
almost 4 years and next month it

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will be 4 years.
We became a podcast one year,

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almost to the day, one year
later.

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Meaning we started officially
recording these episodes and

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then putting them out as a
podcast.

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So yeah, pretty significant,
pretty crazy.

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When I think back to the fact
that we have done a five day a

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week podcast for four years.
I think that's pretty impressive

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if you ask me.
And by the way, hello to Chris

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Austin and Abby here in the
audience as well.

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Dr. Did you have something?
We are freaking amazing.

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Yeah, it's pretty impressive.
And that makes me feel a lot

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better about taking a two week
break like we just did.

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I think we provided plenty of
content for people to binge on.

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So that's that.
And also a reminder that I don't

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think I've ever really shared
with you my Podfest talk.

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I think I've mentioned that I'll
be speaking at Podfest, but I

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haven't really shared with you
anything about it.

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And if you get my newsletter,
it's probably already sitting in

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your inbox.
I'll spoiler alert if you are

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planning on reading my
newsletter.

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So the talk I'm doing this is
really about community.

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And obviously, I would say
that's pretty appropriate

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considering I just shared that
we've had this community going

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now for four years.
The talk really is about how

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podcasters with small or quote,
UN quote, small, right, smaller

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audiences can build real
authority, momentum and

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opportunities by leading with
community first.

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And I'm going to be using myself
as the Guinea pig throughout the

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talk to really show proof, if
you will show evidence that even

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if you have, let's say by the
averages, you have a smaller

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than average sized audience like
we do, although I would say ours

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is probably about the average
these days.

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Still, some may say that's
small, but the point is, is you

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can do really big things with
that quote UN quote, small

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audience and big things can
happen for you when you're

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focusing on building community
and stop focusing on getting

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downloads or streams.
It's my belief that if you're

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focusing on community, those
numbers, those analytics will

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follow.
And that's been again, proof

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here at the podcasting morning
chat.

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So if you are going to pod Fest,
please consider RSVP ING.

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It's definitely a bit of a
dopamine thing for me.

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In other words, when I see a new
RSVPI, get excited about it.

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And yes, I do check that, but
I'm checking it because I like

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to see who from our communities
is joining.

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And that's what gets me really
pumped up and excited about it.

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So please consider that.
Get the Hoova app, WHOVA.

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That's what Podfest uses to
organize this whole thing and

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connects all of us attending.
So you can find my talk.

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It's happening next Thursday, I
believe, 1:15 PM.

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And if you just go to the event
app and search for me, you'll

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find it.
And then also we're going to

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have a meet up there.
I won't go too far into it right

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now, but we will have an
official Empowered Podcasting

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podcasting morning chat meet up
on January 15th at 5:30 PM at

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the hotel bar, which is
basically the central point of

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the hotel.
So what's going to happen to

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this show when you're doing
podcasts?

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Are you going to be double
ending it?

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Actually, it's something I
wanted to talk to you all about

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afterwards, after the show
today.

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But yeah, no, that's OK.
I don't know.

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That's what I want to talk to
you all about.

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I know it might be tricky for me
this year because I've got some

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hard commitments at Pod Fest in
the mornings, so I have to just

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figure all that out and then
figure it all out with the team

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here.
More to come on that, but we

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will do one way or the other.
We will have 5 shows next week

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and I will figure out a way.
If I can't be there for the

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whole time, I will absolutely be
there for a portion of it so

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that I can share about Pod Fest.
Okie doke.

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I'm going to hand it over to
Jonathan.

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We've been doing this Obsession
Worthy podcast series for a

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little while now.
Toward the end of 2025, we

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started doing these more
consistently.

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And Jonathan, maybe before we
get into normal Gossip the

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podcast, maybe you can explain a
little bit about what it means

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when we talk about obsession
worthy podcasts.

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Because admittedly, this was a
discussion the team had over

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break when we were preparing to
do this show today.

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So Jonathan, I'm handing you the
baton.

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Tell us what makes an obsession
worthy podcast.

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Making me go off script.
OK.

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Can you hear?
Me.

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I can hear you well.
Awesome.

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So an obsession worthy podcast
in and it's it's a definition

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for me.
It's a podcast that is

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performing well on podcast
charts in general or is

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something that people are
constantly referring to as a

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podcast that they listen to,
that they love that they, you

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know, are constantly going back
to.

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I chose, I think there's like a
list of 35 of them.

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I did this series on the other
platform as part of something

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that I was doing because I'd
like to help people create

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really strong content.
So I came up with this series.

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So I had about 35 of these that
we've that I've done already.

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Yeah, we've got to stop.
We got plenty we can do.

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Yeah.
The slide deck is going on 300

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slides at this point.
So that's kind of what an

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obsession worthy podcast is.
It's a fairly established

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podcast or something, you know,
that's just running to the top

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of the charts.
So the idea is, is that we

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identify those podcasts and then
breakdown why?

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Why are so obsession worthy?
Yep, and find the little things

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that are part in there that can
be clues for us, for our own

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podcasts, things that we could
do for our own podcasts.

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Makes sense.
And today's podcast, I know I

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already revealed it, but go
ahead.

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Yes, today's podcast is normal
gossip.

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So what the concept is on this
show is every episode the host

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will tell a juicy friend of a
friend gossip story that's

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submitted by a listener.
So each one is true, allegedly

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and anonymous and each one is
told.

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One of the one of the keys of
this is the host tells it with

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absolute commitment to the drama
like she is a true storyteller

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and gets really into each of
these.

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She also invites a guest to
listen along, react and unpack

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the social dynamics.
And like all the things that are

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happening in the story, kind of
like a bestie would at brunch.

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And that's something.
Just keep that in mind.

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It's like he's dropping on, you
know, the craziest group chat

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but in podcast form.
So I had never heard of it.

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That's just because I probably,
yeah, for whatever reason, never

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heard of it.
I did listen.

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I didn't get all the way
through, but I got the majority

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of the way through and I I was
impressed.

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I like the concept.
It really, you know, look, let's

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face it, a lot of podcasters do
say they do a show where it's

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very conversational and it feels
like a couple of friends

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talking.
You know, I have said that about

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my old show, but like this one
defines that.

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This one really is.
It does feel like a couple of

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friends gossiping and even
though you don't know the

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players in the gossip, the
stories that they're telling,

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they do a good job of hooking
you and having a vested interest

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in what's going to happen in the
story.

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So one thing that I think is
really important about this is

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the stories are submitted by
listeners.

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So the audience of this podcast
are Co creating this podcast

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with them, which means that
they're not just community,

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they're active players in this
podcast because they're

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providing the stories.
So when you invite that

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participation, that's going to
make your audience feel

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essential, makes your audience
feel essential, not optional.

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That is a standout strategy.
That's a strategy that's going

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to bring people to the podcast
and make people want to come

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back to the podcast because
they're involved in it and truly

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in the development of each
story.

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So, Mark, do we want to play
that first clip?

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Sure.
This is just the intro clip, so

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you know it's the the host
introducing the guest and

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talking a little bit about
gossip in general.

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One thing to point out here is
noticing how quickly rapport is

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established between the host and
the guest.

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Here we go.
Here's the man, the myth of

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legend himself.
Vincent.

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Hello.
Hey.

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Thank you so much for joining
me.

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This is my total pleasure.
This is the best to be on a

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podcast with somebody.
I already like to talk to you,

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Joy.
I'm so excited to gossip with

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you.
I already know that you're good

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at gossip because I've heard you
gossip before.

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Wow, I can't even like pretend
on this podcast that I don't do

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that.
Well, perfect, because I have to

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ask you, what's your
relationship with gossip?

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And we love honesty and
transparency on this podcast.

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Well, as you just exposed for
me, sometimes I do in fact

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gossip.
I do still feel though that and

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maybe the reason that I do it
when I feel empowered and

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equipped to do so is that
generally I am not a good

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receiver of gossip.
I feel like I don't know what it

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is.
Maybe I have like cop energy.

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Maybe I have like, church boy
energy.

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Whatever it is, people tend not
to tell me.

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Like, just like weird lurid
secrets.

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Which is, of course, the fuel of
all of Newcastle.

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So that one I just wanted to
point out, Jonathan, I'll hand

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it back to you.
I like do you notice these are

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like little things, but I
noticed how we learn that these

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two actually know each other
without them spoon feeding the

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answer to us, without them
saying yes, I know him or I

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know, you know, he makes a like
a just a slight reference when

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he says how cool is it that I
get to be on a podcast and talk

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to somebody I already enjoy
talking to.

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That's all we needed.
And instantly we could then hear

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the rapport, hear that they know
each other.

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You know, just the way that she
reacts to some of the things he

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says and how she laughs and
giggles, you can tell there's

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chemistry there.
And I think that is an attractor

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for an audience.
Absolutely.

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And I think throughout the
podcast, they have these little

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things that they do that bring
in certain aspects of that make

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it obsession worthy.
And what that is one of them is

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they they do have this great
rapport.

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And I've listened to other
episodes of this podcast and she

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has a really good rapport with
everybody that she brings on as

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a guest.
And that makes it much, much

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more enjoyable to listen to the
podcast.

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But I want to say that this show
is what it says it is.

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It's about gossip.
And it's not just any gossip,

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it's the juiciest gossip on the
block that you all want to know

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about.
Honestly.

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This podcast is eavesdropping,
rubbernecking, and talking about

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what the neighborhood trollop
did while her husband was away.

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We know we're not supposed to,
but we're drawn to it.

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And that is something that I
think is really important for us

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00:14:09,720 --> 00:14:11,840
to remember.
Gossip connects people.

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Humans are drawn to gossip
because we're drawn to stories.

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00:14:16,520 --> 00:14:19,440
It's not just about being
curious, it's about collecting

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social data.
Gossip is how communities

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00:14:22,160 --> 00:14:24,200
actually teach rules without
saying the rules.

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Like, oh, that's what happens
when somebody pulls that move.

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It's very natural for us to
enjoy gossip when it's something

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that is human nature.
It's going to automatically

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bring people in.
So people love gossip.

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Already.
This podcast has one up on other

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podcasts because something that
they're doing, people already

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love.
And so and I want to go to BC

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00:14:47,560 --> 00:14:49,520
because I saw BC put something
in the chat.

255
00:14:49,520 --> 00:14:52,560
BC did you want to say anything
about this show?

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00:14:52,720 --> 00:14:56,080
Yeah, I mean, look, look, here's
and just to Jonathan's point,

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00:14:56,080 --> 00:14:57,480
too.
I mean, if gossip wasn't

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00:14:57,480 --> 00:15:01,600
something we all enjoyed on some
level, then major programs like

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00:15:01,600 --> 00:15:04,600
Gossip Girl and Bridgeton would
not be a thing right now, right?

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00:15:04,600 --> 00:15:07,120
And there was even when
Bridgeton became a thing.

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00:15:07,120 --> 00:15:09,520
I don't know if you knew about
this mark, but there was also

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00:15:10,040 --> 00:15:14,080
someone who tried to copycat the
whistle down, essentially in

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00:15:14,080 --> 00:15:15,240
Charlotte.
There was a Charlotte blood

264
00:15:15,240 --> 00:15:18,400
whistle down happening when
Bridgeton first hit Netflix a

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00:15:18,400 --> 00:15:21,560
couple years ago, so it's
something we all have to admit.

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00:15:21,560 --> 00:15:25,520
Yes, we love the transfer of
information, the hidden network

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00:15:25,520 --> 00:15:28,760
of the goosey of goosey, juicy
things that come to the

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Grapevine.
It's just part of who we are.

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00:15:30,640 --> 00:15:32,280
And I want to check in with
Ralph.

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00:15:32,280 --> 00:15:34,160
Ralph, I saw your comment in the
chat.

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00:15:34,160 --> 00:15:36,640
You want to share here?
Yeah, I think the that's cool

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00:15:36,640 --> 00:15:38,120
and all.
I agree with you, but we just

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00:15:38,120 --> 00:15:41,160
have to be careful with gossip
because it can also destroy

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00:15:41,160 --> 00:15:43,920
relationships for sure.
We've got to be cautious about

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00:15:43,920 --> 00:15:46,040
what we're saying when other
people aren't around because you

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00:15:46,040 --> 00:15:48,120
know of those things that when
you have a true friendship with

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00:15:48,120 --> 00:15:50,760
somebody, you know, if there's
somebody that's out gossiping

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00:15:50,760 --> 00:15:52,800
behind your back, that is a
great way to destroy

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00:15:52,800 --> 00:15:54,880
relationships.
So I'm not trying to poo poo on

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00:15:54,880 --> 00:15:58,120
this podcast by any stretch, but
I just think as we talk about

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00:15:58,120 --> 00:16:00,760
gossip and everybody loves
gossip, nobody wants to be a

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00:16:00,760 --> 00:16:02,800
victim of it either.
Yeah, I'm with you there.

283
00:16:02,800 --> 00:16:06,680
And I think maybe that's another
reason why this show is

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00:16:06,680 --> 00:16:10,480
obsession worthy, because it's a
it's safe gossip, right?

285
00:16:10,480 --> 00:16:14,160
We can listen to it and not feel
like anybody is in jeopardy.

286
00:16:14,160 --> 00:16:17,080
Everybody's names in the real
stories are protected.

287
00:16:17,360 --> 00:16:20,640
It just makes it feel like fun
gossip, if you will.

288
00:16:20,800 --> 00:16:22,840
Is that fair to say, Jonathan?
That's fair to say.

289
00:16:22,840 --> 00:16:24,640
And there are two types of
gossip.

290
00:16:24,640 --> 00:16:27,720
There is the gossip like I
mentioned, that is data

291
00:16:27,720 --> 00:16:31,240
collecting and and figuring out.
And then there is gossip that is

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00:16:31,240 --> 00:16:33,640
negative and meant to tear down
a person.

293
00:16:34,000 --> 00:16:36,680
They avoid gossip that's
negative and is meant to tear

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00:16:36,680 --> 00:16:38,920
down a person.
But absolutely, there are two

295
00:16:38,920 --> 00:16:41,000
different types of gossip.
Yep, for sure.

296
00:16:41,160 --> 00:16:45,200
When it comes to gossip and the
take away for for that, does

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00:16:45,200 --> 00:16:49,280
your podcast include something
that you know we consume content

298
00:16:49,280 --> 00:16:51,280
for?
So we consume content as humans

299
00:16:51,520 --> 00:16:56,520
for education, entertainment,
escape, belonging, inspiration,

300
00:16:56,960 --> 00:16:59,840
combating emptiness and
loneliness and escaping pain.

301
00:17:00,480 --> 00:17:05,960
So does your podcast meet one of
those human needs so that it has

302
00:17:05,960 --> 00:17:08,319
a built in reason why people are
going to listen to it?

303
00:17:08,720 --> 00:17:11,200
Think about what your podcast,
you know, why would people

304
00:17:11,200 --> 00:17:13,760
listen to your podcast?
Is it for education?

305
00:17:13,760 --> 00:17:16,040
Is it for entertainment?
And if it doesn't have one of

306
00:17:16,040 --> 00:17:19,680
those things built in, then
maybe looking at how you could

307
00:17:19,760 --> 00:17:22,160
accomplish something, add
something in like that.

308
00:17:22,920 --> 00:17:26,680
So clip 2, there's two things
happening in clip 2 and it's a

309
00:17:26,680 --> 00:17:30,320
really condensed clip.
So I think it's does a really

310
00:17:30,320 --> 00:17:32,200
good job of getting these two
things in there.

311
00:17:32,720 --> 00:17:35,280
But in this clip they're setting
up the story that involves 2

312
00:17:35,280 --> 00:17:37,600
helicopter moms and 8th grade
fundraiser.

313
00:17:37,680 --> 00:17:39,960
So listen carefully.
See if you pick up on the two

314
00:17:39,960 --> 00:17:42,680
subtle things that they're doing
in this particular clip.

315
00:17:43,480 --> 00:17:46,440
Every year all three classes of
8th graders of Briar would

316
00:17:46,440 --> 00:17:51,160
participate in a semester long
fundraiser and whichever class

317
00:17:51,160 --> 00:17:55,080
wins the fundraiser by raising
the most money gets to choose

318
00:17:55,080 --> 00:17:58,520
the theme for the annual 8th
grade graduation party.

319
00:17:58,800 --> 00:18:01,480
The last time Ellen had been
through this fundraiser with her

320
00:18:01,800 --> 00:18:07,360
oldest daughter had almost
killed her.

321
00:18:07,360 --> 00:18:09,280
Are you competitive?
Do you consider yourself

322
00:18:09,280 --> 00:18:12,440
competitive?
I'm very competitive and yet I

323
00:18:12,440 --> 00:18:15,480
feel that it is.
And maybe this goes to my point

324
00:18:15,480 --> 00:18:17,480
about like not showing yourself
sweat to your kids.

325
00:18:17,720 --> 00:18:22,680
I feel that it's usually gauche
to express it, especially like

326
00:18:22,680 --> 00:18:24,600
in your own career.
So I saved my competitiveness

327
00:18:24,600 --> 00:18:27,120
for spades.
Like if anybody wants to play me

328
00:18:27,120 --> 00:18:31,680
in spades, come see me.
This clip is doing two things.

329
00:18:31,680 --> 00:18:35,960
So first of all, who is familiar
with drama between parents

330
00:18:35,960 --> 00:18:39,680
around a school activity?
Me.

331
00:18:40,000 --> 00:18:44,160
Yeah, so it's something that's
very, very relatable.

332
00:18:44,280 --> 00:18:46,840
One thing that this podcast
does, and I've listened to other

333
00:18:46,840 --> 00:18:50,760
episodes, so I can say pretty
reliably it does this, is it

334
00:18:50,800 --> 00:18:54,440
brings stories that are
completely relatable because

335
00:18:54,440 --> 00:18:57,640
when you get somebody to see
themselves in your story, that's

336
00:18:57,640 --> 00:18:59,720
a surefire way to build
connection, and connection

337
00:18:59,720 --> 00:19:02,800
builds trust, and trust get
people to come back for your

338
00:19:02,800 --> 00:19:04,560
podcast over and over and over
again.

339
00:19:04,920 --> 00:19:08,680
So relatability is key and what
you know, like what are some

340
00:19:08,680 --> 00:19:11,040
other things that are relatable
to people.

341
00:19:11,040 --> 00:19:15,280
Think about what your audience
really likes, really is doing

342
00:19:15,280 --> 00:19:18,840
day-to-day, and what they like
to consume and where you can

343
00:19:18,840 --> 00:19:21,600
find that connection and that
relatability.

344
00:19:21,840 --> 00:19:23,480
Yeah.
And I'll give an example, right?

345
00:19:23,480 --> 00:19:27,200
Like last year toward the end of
the year, I shared with

346
00:19:27,200 --> 00:19:30,440
everybody how I had an interview
planned with my favorite content

347
00:19:30,440 --> 00:19:33,400
creator, Heather Parody.
And we did the whole interview

348
00:19:33,400 --> 00:19:36,480
and I forgot to hit record and I
shared the frustrations.

349
00:19:36,480 --> 00:19:40,560
I shared what happened.
And that to me, yes, I'm sharing

350
00:19:40,560 --> 00:19:42,320
it because it really happened to
me.

351
00:19:42,320 --> 00:19:45,880
But ultimately, I also know it's
something that anyone here could

352
00:19:45,880 --> 00:19:49,280
probably relate to.
That's the kind of thing that

353
00:19:49,280 --> 00:19:51,520
this podcast, Normal Gossip is
doing here.

354
00:19:51,520 --> 00:19:54,280
They're finding relatable
stories that people can really

355
00:19:54,480 --> 00:19:58,240
connect with and say, yeah, I've
been there, or yeah, I've seen

356
00:19:58,240 --> 00:20:01,440
that happen before.
Yeah, now the second thing the

357
00:20:01,440 --> 00:20:04,520
clip was doing, and I'm not sure
if you heard him say.

358
00:20:05,080 --> 00:20:07,480
Because he's doesn't like
letting your kids see you sweat.

359
00:20:07,760 --> 00:20:10,480
So the second thing is he's
subtly reminding the listeners

360
00:20:10,680 --> 00:20:14,160
that these stories aren't about
other people, they're actually

361
00:20:14,160 --> 00:20:17,160
about them.
So it's about our judgement, our

362
00:20:17,160 --> 00:20:21,320
pettiness, our experiences, and
what we think of ourselves after

363
00:20:21,320 --> 00:20:23,480
they happen to us.
Because the stories are

364
00:20:23,480 --> 00:20:27,800
anonymous and we're looking,
they look to create relatable

365
00:20:27,800 --> 00:20:31,560
concepts that we can all see
ourselves in that story.

366
00:20:32,240 --> 00:20:35,720
But it offers a place for
reflection that actually makes

367
00:20:35,720 --> 00:20:38,640
the podcast a little bit deeper
than, you know, it looks on the

368
00:20:38,640 --> 00:20:41,120
surface.
But it is a safe space for us to

369
00:20:41,120 --> 00:20:44,040
look at our behaviors in
situations like the ones that

370
00:20:44,040 --> 00:20:47,360
they're seeing and say, I
remember when this happened in

371
00:20:47,360 --> 00:20:49,920
my life, maybe I should do
something a little bit

372
00:20:49,920 --> 00:20:52,640
differently next time.
So it gives you that space to

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00:20:52,640 --> 00:20:58,080
reflect and on and see yourself
in the behaviors that happen in

374
00:20:58,080 --> 00:21:01,960
the eighth grade fundraising
activity that that's going on.

375
00:21:02,600 --> 00:21:05,840
I am sure that there's some
things that we saw and I don't

376
00:21:05,840 --> 00:21:08,600
know who listened to the whole
episode, but some things that we

377
00:21:08,600 --> 00:21:11,920
saw Ellen do that we could
totally relate to or that the

378
00:21:11,920 --> 00:21:15,080
other mom did that we would be
like, Oh my God, I remember when

379
00:21:15,080 --> 00:21:18,720
this person did that to me.
So it's a great opportunity for

380
00:21:18,720 --> 00:21:21,160
you to just take a look and
reflect on your behaviors.

381
00:21:21,200 --> 00:21:23,440
Go ahead, Mark.
Yeah, well, I was going to say I

382
00:21:23,440 --> 00:21:26,160
saw Ralph put something in the
chat that I wanted to hear, and

383
00:21:26,160 --> 00:21:28,360
also Nick's got something.
So let's go to Nick first since

384
00:21:28,360 --> 00:21:29,840
we haven't talked to him yet
this morning.

385
00:21:29,840 --> 00:21:31,040
Good morning, Nick.
Happy New Year.

386
00:21:31,400 --> 00:21:34,280
Hey, good, good morning and
happy New Year.

387
00:21:34,280 --> 00:21:35,960
I was about to say Goodyear and
happy morning.

388
00:21:35,960 --> 00:21:37,280
Well.
That works too.

389
00:21:39,400 --> 00:21:42,280
I what I think is interesting,
yeah, I, I agree.

390
00:21:42,280 --> 00:21:47,000
What he was talking about in the
clip is just a, a really great

391
00:21:47,000 --> 00:21:48,240
way to connect with the
audience.

392
00:21:48,240 --> 00:21:51,040
But he's just the guest on this
show.

393
00:21:51,480 --> 00:21:54,480
He's just responding to what the
host is asking.

394
00:21:54,480 --> 00:21:58,520
So I what I think is really
interesting is how the host came

395
00:21:58,520 --> 00:22:03,080
in with that question after they
kind of discussed that point.

396
00:22:03,440 --> 00:22:05,880
Rather than saying, oh, have you
ever experienced something like

397
00:22:05,880 --> 00:22:08,440
this when you were growing up or
with your kids?

398
00:22:08,840 --> 00:22:11,880
She kind of reframed that
question and said, are you

399
00:22:11,880 --> 00:22:13,400
competitive?
Are you did yourself

400
00:22:13,400 --> 00:22:16,280
competitive?
He kind of opens it up to a lot

401
00:22:16,280 --> 00:22:20,840
broader discussion than just
like a typical question answer,

402
00:22:20,840 --> 00:22:23,000
response, like I tell the story
and what do you think about it

403
00:22:23,000 --> 00:22:25,000
kind of thing.
Yeah, I'm with you, Nick.

404
00:22:25,000 --> 00:22:27,160
I remember noticing that as
well.

405
00:22:27,160 --> 00:22:32,080
I really like the idea that it's
not her just telling the gossip,

406
00:22:32,120 --> 00:22:35,720
telling the story and him
responding, right.

407
00:22:35,720 --> 00:22:41,040
She's actually subtly combining
an interview along with the the

408
00:22:41,040 --> 00:22:44,720
focal point, which is that
story, that gossip, and we get

409
00:22:44,720 --> 00:22:48,960
to learn about the guest through
the story that's being told,

410
00:22:48,960 --> 00:22:50,680
even though he has nothing to do
with it, right?

411
00:22:50,680 --> 00:22:55,040
She's asking questions that
brings him in and get allows us

412
00:22:55,040 --> 00:22:58,560
as an audience to know him.
And I know for me, whenever a

413
00:22:58,560 --> 00:23:02,120
host brings in someone that they
know, there's something about

414
00:23:02,120 --> 00:23:04,640
that that I makes me lean in a
little bit more.

415
00:23:04,640 --> 00:23:08,480
I'm just curious.
I'm more curious to, just to see

416
00:23:08,480 --> 00:23:12,200
because I know that they know
each other deeply and I know

417
00:23:12,200 --> 00:23:15,680
that they might pull some really
interesting stories or

418
00:23:15,680 --> 00:23:17,880
information that I, I may want
to hear.

419
00:23:18,520 --> 00:23:19,800
And let's go to Ralph real
quick.

420
00:23:19,800 --> 00:23:22,600
Ralph, you had said something in
the chat and I wanted you to

421
00:23:22,920 --> 00:23:25,840
share it here too.
I do a daily finance show and

422
00:23:25,840 --> 00:23:28,280
one of the things that I have
found to be the most effective

423
00:23:28,280 --> 00:23:31,040
is when I talk about my own
mistakes and a lot of people

424
00:23:31,040 --> 00:23:32,800
say, wait a minute, your
account, you make financial

425
00:23:32,800 --> 00:23:34,520
mistakes.
Yes, everyday, Sure.

426
00:23:34,600 --> 00:23:37,920
It's interesting because that's
this episodes when I really lean

427
00:23:37,920 --> 00:23:40,880
into something that I fell over
my face, stubbed my toe on,

428
00:23:41,120 --> 00:23:43,400
that's when I get, you know,
audience feedback.

429
00:23:43,400 --> 00:23:45,480
And they're like, Ralph, I can't
believe you're one just like us.

430
00:23:46,000 --> 00:23:49,440
And I think as podcasters, we
have to recognize that the

431
00:23:49,440 --> 00:23:52,480
people that are listening to us
are suffering through the same

432
00:23:52,480 --> 00:23:55,400
things we're suffering through.
And it's OK to share those

433
00:23:55,400 --> 00:23:58,160
things and talk about your
triumphs and also talk about

434
00:23:58,160 --> 00:23:59,760
those times when you stubbed
your toe.

435
00:23:59,960 --> 00:24:02,440
Talk about the times when you
didn't do it perfectly because

436
00:24:02,600 --> 00:24:04,200
you're going to build that
relationship.

437
00:24:04,200 --> 00:24:07,560
And really podcasting comes down
to building a relationship with

438
00:24:07,560 --> 00:24:09,200
your audience.
And that's what this lady's

439
00:24:09,200 --> 00:24:12,200
doing here in a perfect way.
Yeah, because look, nobody

440
00:24:12,200 --> 00:24:14,200
wants, I shouldn't say nobody,
right?

441
00:24:14,200 --> 00:24:18,640
But I, I don't believe a lot of
people will want to be spoken to

442
00:24:18,640 --> 00:24:22,600
or spoken at.
Sure, they want to learn from us

443
00:24:22,720 --> 00:24:24,520
depending on the podcast and
what we're talking about.

444
00:24:24,520 --> 00:24:26,560
But like, let's use us as an
example here.

445
00:24:26,760 --> 00:24:30,360
Sure, people are coming to
listen to me and you they, but

446
00:24:30,360 --> 00:24:32,720
they also want us to sound
relatable.

447
00:24:32,720 --> 00:24:36,440
They want to know that they're,
or I'm just like them.

448
00:24:37,040 --> 00:24:39,880
And then I've made the mistakes
that either they're making now

449
00:24:39,880 --> 00:24:43,760
or that they've made before.
They want that human side.

450
00:24:44,840 --> 00:24:49,120
So I think it's important to
shed that idea of perfection,

451
00:24:49,360 --> 00:24:52,840
shed that idea of, oh, I have to
always look like an authority

452
00:24:52,840 --> 00:24:55,400
figure and I can't look like I
mess up.

453
00:24:55,840 --> 00:24:59,560
In fact, it's the opposite.
The more I think you can share

454
00:24:59,560 --> 00:25:03,440
when you mess up, the more your
audience, your community will

455
00:25:03,440 --> 00:25:05,280
connect with you.
Yeah, absolutely.

456
00:25:05,280 --> 00:25:10,120
And I think, you know, for for
everybody, that relatability is

457
00:25:10,120 --> 00:25:13,000
the moments that we fall down
and how we get back up.

458
00:25:13,440 --> 00:25:15,920
And that's those are the things
that people want to see and

459
00:25:15,920 --> 00:25:19,760
connect with because those are
the things that make us real,

460
00:25:20,160 --> 00:25:25,000
Especially going into a world
where AI is going to be so

461
00:25:25,520 --> 00:25:28,880
constant when it comes to things
that we're seeing, the things

462
00:25:28,880 --> 00:25:31,080
that make us human are the
things that are going to make us

463
00:25:31,080 --> 00:25:33,800
stand out.
Sharing our stories around those

464
00:25:33,960 --> 00:25:36,160
is going to be a great way.
I mean, I talked a little bit

465
00:25:36,160 --> 00:25:38,920
about storytelling later on in
this podcast, but you know, just

466
00:25:38,920 --> 00:25:43,080
based on what Ralph was saying,
that is how you stand out by

467
00:25:43,080 --> 00:25:45,640
telling your stories, connecting
with your audience on the real

468
00:25:45,640 --> 00:25:49,000
things that actually happened.
And Tim in the chat was

469
00:25:49,000 --> 00:25:50,840
responding to what I was just
saying.

470
00:25:50,840 --> 00:25:53,240
And I guess in some ways what
you're saying, he's saying Bob

471
00:25:53,240 --> 00:25:57,520
Ross, the guy on PBS who used to
paint all the time, says there

472
00:25:57,520 --> 00:25:59,640
are no mistakes, only happy
accidents.

473
00:25:59,640 --> 00:26:01,160
So yeah.
Only happy accidents.

474
00:26:01,160 --> 00:26:03,440
That's that's one way you can
think about sharing your happy

475
00:26:03,440 --> 00:26:05,920
accidents with your audience.
And here's the thing, this

476
00:26:05,920 --> 00:26:08,520
podcast works because it's not
about The Who.

477
00:26:08,760 --> 00:26:10,520
It's about the why we care about
it.

478
00:26:10,520 --> 00:26:13,160
It's about the why.
This story is important to us.

479
00:26:13,160 --> 00:26:14,800
It's about why this story
connects.

480
00:26:15,080 --> 00:26:18,960
So it's not about who there is.
You don't need a celebrity to

481
00:26:19,240 --> 00:26:23,120
have a a killer podcast.
Relatability is more important

482
00:26:23,120 --> 00:26:26,120
than celebrity so you don't need
famous guests to build a hit.

483
00:26:26,440 --> 00:26:29,840
This podcast works because of
the story and the person that

484
00:26:29,840 --> 00:26:32,280
tells the story and how much it
mirrors the listeners life.

485
00:26:32,720 --> 00:26:36,120
If you're rude.
I noticed on social media, I

486
00:26:36,120 --> 00:26:39,000
just an observation, I don't
know what to make of it exactly,

487
00:26:39,000 --> 00:26:44,800
but what I did see is that their
podcast on Instagram has its own

488
00:26:44,800 --> 00:26:47,160
page.
They have 10s of thousands of

489
00:26:47,160 --> 00:26:49,280
followers.
I forget what the number was,

490
00:26:49,280 --> 00:26:50,960
but they they have a lot of
followers to it.

491
00:26:50,960 --> 00:26:55,160
What I found interesting was
that the hosts have significant,

492
00:26:55,200 --> 00:26:58,400
significantly less followers.
And I'm not trying to make this

493
00:26:58,400 --> 00:27:01,320
about followers, right?
But what I'm noticing is

494
00:27:01,440 --> 00:27:04,760
normally what I see a lot of
times is the podcaster

495
00:27:04,760 --> 00:27:08,800
themselves, their own brand,
their own channel on social

496
00:27:08,800 --> 00:27:12,760
media usually is the one that
has more and the podcast usually

497
00:27:12,760 --> 00:27:15,600
has less.
The way I see it is what I what

498
00:27:15,600 --> 00:27:18,760
I'm seeing is, is that they
really work to build that

499
00:27:18,760 --> 00:27:23,000
presence and build that
community and made it less about

500
00:27:23,120 --> 00:27:25,120
the hosts and more about the
show.

501
00:27:25,240 --> 00:27:28,600
I think because I know what
you're talking about there and I

502
00:27:28,600 --> 00:27:32,360
kind of think that that is
because the podcast is what

503
00:27:32,360 --> 00:27:36,760
gained the popularity. 1st.
Had it been the hosts on social

504
00:27:36,760 --> 00:27:39,120
media, they built this audience
and then they're like, hey,

505
00:27:39,120 --> 00:27:41,720
we're going to start a podcast.
I think it would be the other

506
00:27:41,720 --> 00:27:45,400
way around, but I think the
podcast is actually what kind of

507
00:27:45,400 --> 00:27:48,440
put them on the map and people
were finding it from the podcast

508
00:27:48,440 --> 00:27:49,880
channel.
No, I'm with you, Nick.

509
00:27:49,880 --> 00:27:52,480
In fact, I think that that's
somewhat of what I'll be talking

510
00:27:52,480 --> 00:27:55,320
about at Pod Fest too.
I'll get him more into that in

511
00:27:55,320 --> 00:27:57,480
my Pod Fest talk.
But yeah, I'm with you there,

512
00:27:57,480 --> 00:27:58,480
Nick.
Absolutely.

513
00:27:58,680 --> 00:28:01,600
And I think one of the things
with this particular podcast

514
00:28:01,600 --> 00:28:05,480
that makes the podcast get more
followers is because the podcast

515
00:28:05,480 --> 00:28:08,320
is about stories.
It's not about the hosts, it's

516
00:28:08,320 --> 00:28:11,240
about stories.
So you're connecting with the

517
00:28:11,240 --> 00:28:13,840
stories you're going to find.
Want to see the other stories

518
00:28:13,960 --> 00:28:16,760
from this podcast?
So you're not totally invested

519
00:28:16,760 --> 00:28:20,680
in the host, which is fine, but
definitely something that plays

520
00:28:20,680 --> 00:28:24,400
a little bit of a role.
I want to remind everybody about

521
00:28:24,400 --> 00:28:28,760
the Empowered Podcasting 2
videos that are now available.

522
00:28:28,760 --> 00:28:33,080
If podcasting is part of your
2026 goals, this is worth your

523
00:28:33,080 --> 00:28:34,960
time.
You can now watch the entire

524
00:28:34,960 --> 00:28:38,280
Empowered Podcasting 2
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525
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It includes 25 plus sessions
from people who are actively

526
00:28:42,880 --> 00:28:46,480
building, growing and supporting
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527
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You'll hear lived experiences,
practical strategies and

528
00:28:50,400 --> 00:28:54,200
thoughtful conversations around,
of course, podcasting, community

529
00:28:54,360 --> 00:28:58,720
growth and sustainability.
So if you're starting a podcast,

530
00:28:58,720 --> 00:29:02,800
or maybe you're recommitting to
a podcast, or looking for more

531
00:29:02,800 --> 00:29:05,400
clarity and confidence this
year, this collection gives you

532
00:29:05,400 --> 00:29:08,080
a strong foundation to work
from.

533
00:29:08,320 --> 00:29:13,600
So you can get all the details
at ironicmedia.com/courses slash

534
00:29:13,600 --> 00:29:18,400
EPC 2025.
Of course, I'll put that in the

535
00:29:18,400 --> 00:29:21,360
show notes.
Remember that ironic in ironic

536
00:29:21,360 --> 00:29:25,400
media spelled IRONICK.
So again, it's ironic

537
00:29:25,400 --> 00:29:32,920
media.com/courses slash EPC 25.
OK Jonathan, now you want clip

538
00:29:32,920 --> 00:29:36,520
3.
Today our friend or friend is

539
00:29:36,520 --> 00:29:40,000
named Ellen, and Ellen is in her
mid to late 40s.

540
00:29:40,240 --> 00:29:42,960
And maybe one of the most
important things to know about

541
00:29:42,960 --> 00:29:46,240
Ellen is that she has lived in
Manhattan and specifically in

542
00:29:46,240 --> 00:29:48,120
the West Village for her entire
life.

543
00:29:48,600 --> 00:29:52,120
Ellen's vibe is champagne
socialist.

544
00:29:54,520 --> 00:29:57,560
OK, I understand.
Both of Ellen's daughters

545
00:29:57,560 --> 00:30:02,160
attended a private K through 12,
but she also donated to Bernie

546
00:30:02,160 --> 00:30:05,760
Sanders and AOC.
She contains multitudes.

547
00:30:06,160 --> 00:30:10,200
Are you familiar with this vibe?
Ellen is, I mean, a legend in my

548
00:30:10,200 --> 00:30:11,720
own mind already.
I know her.

549
00:30:11,720 --> 00:30:14,600
I see her.
What are you seeing?

550
00:30:14,960 --> 00:30:19,160
Well, she wears loose clothing.
She wears black leather flats.

551
00:30:19,160 --> 00:30:23,000
This year she's moved on to the
The 2 Great Trends of 2025,

552
00:30:23,680 --> 00:30:26,600
Comfortable ballet Flat or the
simple Mary Jane.

553
00:30:28,560 --> 00:30:32,640
She wears statement jewelry
rings on top of rings Ellen

554
00:30:32,640 --> 00:30:36,800
owns, so she has a ring drawer.
You're right.

555
00:30:37,000 --> 00:30:39,600
You're right, Vincent.
You have perfectly described

556
00:30:39,600 --> 00:30:43,680
Ellen.
So Ellen is vibe is champagne

557
00:30:43,680 --> 00:30:46,280
socialist.
That description alone says a

558
00:30:46,280 --> 00:30:48,280
lot.
But a signature move of this

559
00:30:48,280 --> 00:30:51,400
podcast is how seriously they
take character development.

560
00:30:51,600 --> 00:30:54,200
And they did it with each and
every character in this episode.

561
00:30:54,400 --> 00:30:57,040
So you can see it, but they you,
it's not that you have a vague

562
00:30:57,040 --> 00:30:58,800
idea about who these characters
are.

563
00:30:59,120 --> 00:31:01,800
You can clearly see each of them
and you're aware of what makes

564
00:31:01,800 --> 00:31:04,120
them different from the others.
You know, when it comes to

565
00:31:04,120 --> 00:31:06,000
storytelling, this is an
important aspect of

566
00:31:06,000 --> 00:31:09,160
storytelling.
But details and specificity,

567
00:31:09,880 --> 00:31:12,480
when you're really specific
about things, that builds trust,

568
00:31:12,760 --> 00:31:14,640
connection, and obviously
obsession.

569
00:31:15,000 --> 00:31:18,040
The character development that
they do here is something that

570
00:31:18,040 --> 00:31:21,040
we can take away and say, if I'm
telling a story and I need to

571
00:31:21,040 --> 00:31:24,680
develop a character, how can I
give it so much detail that

572
00:31:24,680 --> 00:31:26,720
people can see it in their own
eyes?

573
00:31:26,720 --> 00:31:28,280
And it didn't take them that
long to do that.

574
00:31:28,520 --> 00:31:31,280
How do they?
I know that they get the stories

575
00:31:31,480 --> 00:31:35,720
from a listener, right, But I
was constantly scratching my

576
00:31:35,720 --> 00:31:39,240
head thinking, how does she have
all these details?

577
00:31:39,240 --> 00:31:43,520
Like she she's really telling a
good story and it's not even her

578
00:31:43,520 --> 00:31:45,960
story.
And I just can't help but to

579
00:31:45,960 --> 00:31:50,320
think the way that I've received
listener submissions to

580
00:31:50,320 --> 00:31:53,120
different things.
I can't imagine that the

581
00:31:53,120 --> 00:31:55,760
listener that submitted this
story gave her all of those

582
00:31:55,760 --> 00:31:58,000
juicy details.
So do we know, like do the does

583
00:31:58,000 --> 00:32:02,640
she do or does her team do a
thorough investigation?

584
00:32:02,640 --> 00:32:05,160
And if you don't know that's
fine, but I'm just curious how

585
00:32:05,240 --> 00:32:08,240
she does it.
I don't know, but my feeling

586
00:32:08,240 --> 00:32:11,800
from listening to a few episodes
is that she gets the basics of

587
00:32:11,800 --> 00:32:15,680
the story and then she builds
out the rest of the story based

588
00:32:15,680 --> 00:32:20,600
on what she I think is is
feeling the story needs to kind

589
00:32:20,600 --> 00:32:23,880
of actually work.
I could see because I don't, I

590
00:32:23,880 --> 00:32:28,800
see, you know, the basics come
from the listeners, but there's

591
00:32:28,800 --> 00:32:31,480
no way that all these details
come from the listeners, by the

592
00:32:31,480 --> 00:32:33,800
way, and I don't.
Think we ever said the name of

593
00:32:33,800 --> 00:32:35,640
this episode that we're talking
about?

594
00:32:35,640 --> 00:32:36,800
Did we?
You know what?

595
00:32:36,920 --> 00:32:40,000
I don't think we did.
Do you Do you have it written?

596
00:32:40,000 --> 00:32:42,040
Down I can.
I'm going to have to search

597
00:32:42,040 --> 00:32:44,320
through 15 pages of chicken
scratch.

598
00:32:44,320 --> 00:32:47,000
Yeah, so and while you're doing
that, you know what I think is

599
00:32:47,000 --> 00:32:48,920
cool about?
Does something, wasn't it?

600
00:32:48,920 --> 00:32:53,120
Yeah, I think so, Dr. What I
think is cool is that I have no

601
00:32:53,120 --> 00:32:57,320
problem with her filling in gaps
to the story, right?

602
00:32:57,320 --> 00:33:00,080
Because for one, that we're not
holding her to it.

603
00:33:00,080 --> 00:33:03,160
We don't know the players, we
don't know the story.

604
00:33:03,680 --> 00:33:07,680
Adding those juicy little
details really helps push the

605
00:33:07,680 --> 00:33:10,520
story along.
I think that sometimes some of

606
00:33:10,520 --> 00:33:13,840
us shy away like, oh, we when
we're telling a story, when

607
00:33:13,840 --> 00:33:17,720
we're telling anything to our
audience, it's got to be 100%

608
00:33:17,720 --> 00:33:20,200
factual.
And yes, of course, the main

609
00:33:20,200 --> 00:33:23,880
points I believe have to be have
to be 100% factual.

610
00:33:24,040 --> 00:33:27,960
But I think when you are
storytelling, it's OK to add a

611
00:33:27,960 --> 00:33:31,160
little something to it to help
move it along, make it a little

612
00:33:31,160 --> 00:33:34,680
more exciting, as long as you're
not hurting the integrity of the

613
00:33:34,680 --> 00:33:37,720
story or the person who shared
that story with you.

614
00:33:38,000 --> 00:33:40,520
And the, the title of the
episode is demented Little

615
00:33:40,520 --> 00:33:44,200
Tango, and it comes from
something that the, the guest

616
00:33:44,400 --> 00:33:47,880
that was listening said early on
in the episode.

617
00:33:47,880 --> 00:33:51,400
So he he called the the thing
that was going on between the

618
00:33:52,000 --> 00:33:53,720
the parents are demented little
tango.

619
00:33:54,000 --> 00:33:56,680
And I want to point out, you
know, because we do talk when we

620
00:33:56,680 --> 00:34:00,640
do our evaluation episodes on
Thursdays, we talk about titles,

621
00:34:00,640 --> 00:34:03,360
right?
And we talk about how it's to

622
00:34:03,360 --> 00:34:07,240
your advantage to make them
search engine optimization

623
00:34:07,280 --> 00:34:11,920
friendly, right?
But I don't think that applies

624
00:34:11,920 --> 00:34:14,679
on these shows.
I think once a show has that

625
00:34:14,679 --> 00:34:18,440
built in, following that big
community that, you know, like

626
00:34:18,440 --> 00:34:22,120
this one does, we're now they're
out doing live shows where

627
00:34:22,120 --> 00:34:24,199
they're doing in person shows
now.

628
00:34:24,760 --> 00:34:27,800
I think you can be you have a
little more liberty, a little

629
00:34:27,800 --> 00:34:31,120
more freedom with your titles at
that point.

630
00:34:31,400 --> 00:34:33,920
I think, Ralph, did you have
something you wanted to add?

631
00:34:34,280 --> 00:34:36,639
I think Mark, what you're, what
you're alluding to is pretty big

632
00:34:36,639 --> 00:34:40,280
and that is what they're
probably having here is people

633
00:34:40,280 --> 00:34:42,760
that are referring this show to
other people.

634
00:34:43,159 --> 00:34:46,600
And once you're at that point, I
think you move away from the

635
00:34:46,600 --> 00:34:48,760
importance of title.
See, in the YouTube generation,

636
00:34:48,760 --> 00:34:51,000
we're so focused on titles and
thumbnails.

637
00:34:51,000 --> 00:34:54,440
But once you've built that
community and once people want

638
00:34:54,440 --> 00:34:57,400
to share this episode or share
the show with other people, I

639
00:34:57,400 --> 00:35:00,080
think it really does minimize
the value of that title.

640
00:35:00,280 --> 00:35:01,280
Agreed.
Yeah.

641
00:35:01,280 --> 00:35:03,680
And Ralph, you said you asked me
in the chat here.

642
00:35:03,680 --> 00:35:06,000
So do you think she is is
embellishing?

643
00:35:06,480 --> 00:35:09,000
Yeah, I think that's the best
way to put it because I think

644
00:35:09,000 --> 00:35:12,320
maybe if she doesn't have all of
those extra little details, the

645
00:35:12,320 --> 00:35:15,400
story might fall a little flat
or just the show might go very

646
00:35:15,400 --> 00:35:17,760
quickly.
So I think it's important and

647
00:35:17,760 --> 00:35:20,240
also it's just important to
paint a picture for people,

648
00:35:20,400 --> 00:35:22,880
especially when you're doing an
audio first, which I believe

649
00:35:22,880 --> 00:35:26,800
this is an audio first podcast.
Yes, another storytelling

650
00:35:26,800 --> 00:35:30,640
tactics, they do really well and
that was actually I think key in

651
00:35:30,640 --> 00:35:35,160
this particular story is they
use one specific absurd detail

652
00:35:35,440 --> 00:35:38,200
to anchor the story and they
anchored the story with a pop

653
00:35:38,200 --> 00:35:40,800
culture item that people might
be familiar with.

654
00:35:40,880 --> 00:35:44,120
The huge skeleton, that like 10
foot skeleton from Home Depot

655
00:35:44,440 --> 00:35:47,960
was the anchor in the story and
a focus point for a lot of the

656
00:35:47,960 --> 00:35:51,920
action that happened, which
created a simple and

657
00:35:51,920 --> 00:35:54,760
understandable narrative amidst
the chaos.

658
00:35:54,760 --> 00:35:57,120
Because this story is chaotic.
When you're listening to the

659
00:35:57,120 --> 00:36:00,840
whole thing, it's chaotic.
But when it kind of come, when

660
00:36:00,840 --> 00:36:04,520
the action all happens in one
place around the 10 foot, you

661
00:36:04,520 --> 00:36:10,080
know, skeleton, it creates a
little bit of an anchor that

662
00:36:10,080 --> 00:36:12,920
really allows people to see, OK,
this is what's going on in the

663
00:36:12,920 --> 00:36:14,560
story.
Here are the important things.

664
00:36:14,760 --> 00:36:17,120
I don't need to worry about the
other stuff that's going on.

665
00:36:17,440 --> 00:36:20,120
Here's where it is.
And that clarity and structure

666
00:36:20,120 --> 00:36:23,720
makes content bingeable.
And then final storytelling

667
00:36:23,720 --> 00:36:27,480
tactic is they end with a strong
lesson, which I don't want to

668
00:36:27,480 --> 00:36:31,560
give it away, but it was neither
of the two moms students that

669
00:36:31,560 --> 00:36:35,840
won.
But it lands, you know, with

670
00:36:35,840 --> 00:36:37,560
clean meeting without being
preachy.

671
00:36:37,680 --> 00:36:41,120
And that provides that clean,
rewarding story where you feel

672
00:36:41,120 --> 00:36:43,840
good about listening to it and
it makes you more likely to

673
00:36:43,840 --> 00:36:45,920
return.
So those are three storytelling

674
00:36:45,920 --> 00:36:49,320
tactics that they use in this
podcast that I think are really

675
00:36:49,480 --> 00:36:53,160
important for us to look at when
it comes to our podcast.

676
00:36:53,160 --> 00:36:57,480
How can we provide a clean wrap
up and make people happy to

677
00:36:57,480 --> 00:37:01,720
listen to something and come
back again For your podcast,

678
00:37:01,880 --> 00:37:04,520
every episode should kind of
follow a similar ritual if

679
00:37:04,520 --> 00:37:06,600
possible.
You can break things up a little

680
00:37:06,600 --> 00:37:09,760
bit, but when you follow a
ritual in a in a format, it

681
00:37:09,760 --> 00:37:11,080
allows people to feel
comfortable.

682
00:37:11,360 --> 00:37:16,120
So in this podcast, it always
starts with the host greeting

683
00:37:16,120 --> 00:37:19,320
her guest, introducing the
gossip story, and then she

684
00:37:19,320 --> 00:37:22,760
builds suspense with, you know,
what she's revealing and the

685
00:37:22,760 --> 00:37:25,280
reactions of the guest.
And then she ends with a moral

686
00:37:25,280 --> 00:37:27,640
reflector or the chaos of the
whole story.

687
00:37:28,040 --> 00:37:29,280
So the listeners know the
rhythm.

688
00:37:29,680 --> 00:37:32,640
And that predictability is
comforting, which breeds trust

689
00:37:32,640 --> 00:37:35,800
and minge ability.
So a recognizable structure is a

690
00:37:35,800 --> 00:37:37,600
great brand asset for you to
have.

691
00:37:37,840 --> 00:37:42,000
I so agree with this Jonathan,
and especially the ritual aspect

692
00:37:42,000 --> 00:37:46,000
and structure for that matter.
I wholeheartedly agree with

693
00:37:46,000 --> 00:37:47,920
that.
It's something that I learned

694
00:37:47,920 --> 00:37:52,880
from different radio heroes and
mentors and and listening to

695
00:37:52,880 --> 00:37:56,600
radio as well.
The whole idea of doing the same

696
00:37:56,600 --> 00:38:00,800
certain things on your show at
this, even at the same points of

697
00:38:00,800 --> 00:38:03,920
the show, it creates this
familiarity.

698
00:38:03,920 --> 00:38:07,320
It creates this, you know, I
almost want to say like it gets

699
00:38:07,320 --> 00:38:09,960
to a point where when it becomes
your favorite podcast, you

700
00:38:09,960 --> 00:38:12,120
really look forward to those
rituals.

701
00:38:12,320 --> 00:38:15,480
And we do some of that here.
And in fact, we're planning

702
00:38:15,480 --> 00:38:18,560
behind the scenes of really
incorporating even more of that.

703
00:38:18,720 --> 00:38:21,400
You know, now those whooshes
that you hear like with each

704
00:38:21,400 --> 00:38:24,440
clip that we're playing, like
that's something that eventually

705
00:38:24,560 --> 00:38:27,880
people will, for the most part,
people will gravitate to, or at

706
00:38:27,880 --> 00:38:31,520
least if I took it away after I
do this for a little while, if I

707
00:38:31,520 --> 00:38:34,480
take it away, people will start
to notice, right?

708
00:38:34,480 --> 00:38:36,560
It's the same thing.
Like if I changed up our theme

709
00:38:36,560 --> 00:38:40,760
music, people would notice.
And it might bother people if I

710
00:38:40,840 --> 00:38:44,520
were just to decide to change
that music now, or even the way

711
00:38:44,520 --> 00:38:48,120
that I start the show with the
music, good morning podcasting,

712
00:38:48,120 --> 00:38:51,640
morning chat, you know, all of
those little details become

713
00:38:51,640 --> 00:38:54,160
something that people just find
familiar.

714
00:38:54,280 --> 00:38:57,640
It's like it's just like a warm
blanket to people.

715
00:38:57,920 --> 00:38:59,600
Yeah, and the other one thing
that I'm going to point out

716
00:38:59,600 --> 00:39:03,560
about this and that we do here
as well is they're building a

717
00:39:03,560 --> 00:39:07,640
fandom around the show.
And now these are everyday

718
00:39:07,640 --> 00:39:09,520
stories that people are
connecting with, but the fan

719
00:39:09,520 --> 00:39:12,120
base isn't passive.
They have their own theories on

720
00:39:12,120 --> 00:39:15,000
the stories.
They rank story villains, and

721
00:39:15,000 --> 00:39:18,320
they use a lot of the references
that they use on the show.

722
00:39:18,320 --> 00:39:21,880
Now, we talked about this when
we talked about the Kelsey

723
00:39:21,880 --> 00:39:25,080
Brothers podcast, that they're
they're creating a fandom around

724
00:39:25,080 --> 00:39:26,400
it.
This is something that they're

725
00:39:26,400 --> 00:39:29,520
doing here as well.
They've even created their own

726
00:39:29,520 --> 00:39:32,400
like microculture around the
storytelling style and they're

727
00:39:32,400 --> 00:39:35,040
doing lives now and they're
doing like there's this whole

728
00:39:35,120 --> 00:39:40,480
audience that is truly invested
in what this podcast does, you

729
00:39:40,480 --> 00:39:41,880
know?
Then the community identity is

730
00:39:41,880 --> 00:39:44,560
built through the shared
language, the participation, the

731
00:39:44,560 --> 00:39:47,640
connections to the stories.
And that's one of the things

732
00:39:47,640 --> 00:39:49,560
that's important.
We talked about it earlier, when

733
00:39:49,560 --> 00:39:53,000
the audience can see themselves
in in your content, they

734
00:39:53,000 --> 00:39:54,360
actually do the marketing for
you.

735
00:39:54,800 --> 00:39:57,360
Yeah, thank you, Jonathan.
And I just want to quickly big

736
00:39:57,360 --> 00:40:02,560
shout out to James Scott, who is
in the audience right now, James

737
00:40:02,960 --> 00:40:07,880
and OG podcasting morning chat.
Community member and when I say

738
00:40:07,880 --> 00:40:10,400
OG, if you remember at the top
of the show when I was talking

739
00:40:10,400 --> 00:40:13,320
about how many years we've been
doing this, James was part of

740
00:40:13,320 --> 00:40:16,400
that original podcasting morning
chat with Sid and several

741
00:40:16,400 --> 00:40:19,360
others.
So good to see James back here.

742
00:40:19,360 --> 00:40:22,040
Good morning to you James.
Happy new year and I've been

743
00:40:22,280 --> 00:40:26,880
following James on social media
lately doing a he's doing a big

744
00:40:26,960 --> 00:40:31,480
personal journey for himself,
really trying to revamp himself

745
00:40:31,480 --> 00:40:34,960
and I'm really excited for you
James and cheering you on along

746
00:40:34,960 --> 00:40:36,320
the way.
So thanks for being here.

747
00:40:36,840 --> 00:40:39,280
OK with that.
Jonathan Floor is yours.

748
00:40:39,680 --> 00:40:42,240
Set up for clip four, so the
podcast doesn't just leave you

749
00:40:42,320 --> 00:40:44,760
in the end with like gossip and
nothing else.

750
00:40:45,080 --> 00:40:47,680
It does share a lesson.
It recaps the main players and

751
00:40:47,680 --> 00:40:51,440
it allows us to self reflect on
the episode and and see

752
00:40:51,440 --> 00:40:55,320
ourselves again in that episode.
And that's basically the end of

753
00:40:55,320 --> 00:40:56,800
our story.
Do you think there are any

754
00:40:56,800 --> 00:41:03,520
villains here?
Any this tale is is thick with

755
00:41:03,520 --> 00:41:08,600
villains and they're villainy
Hazel just cheater liar,

756
00:41:08,920 --> 00:41:10,920
daughter appropriator.
Need I go on?

757
00:41:15,800 --> 00:41:19,520
You made me wheeze.
Ellen, a hater and a snitch.

758
00:41:20,200 --> 00:41:23,840
It's true.
Although I feel for her because

759
00:41:23,840 --> 00:41:26,600
you and your telling and beat
her with such a rich humanity

760
00:41:26,600 --> 00:41:30,280
and her protagonism really shown
through for me.

761
00:41:32,440 --> 00:41:34,400
Petty villainry really at the
end of the day.

762
00:41:34,400 --> 00:41:37,400
But the sons of Patricia
obviously I mean literal

763
00:41:37,400 --> 00:41:40,280
criminals, true trespassers at
the very least.

764
00:41:42,640 --> 00:41:44,320
The daughter.
The older daughter.

765
00:41:44,760 --> 00:41:50,160
What kind of 2 timing?
Let that one hang in there.

766
00:41:50,160 --> 00:41:53,280
Yeah.
So, you know, it wraps up the

767
00:41:53,280 --> 00:41:56,160
show for you.
It gives you a nice, warm, like,

768
00:41:56,200 --> 00:41:59,560
ending to it.
And overall, there's a lot of

769
00:41:59,560 --> 00:42:02,080
things that we can take away
from at podcasts like this.

770
00:42:02,080 --> 00:42:04,680
One thing is, the tone is their
brand.

771
00:42:04,800 --> 00:42:09,240
The show's voice is smart, kind
and never really wavers too far

772
00:42:09,240 --> 00:42:12,360
into the nastiness.
There's a good balance of snark

773
00:42:12,520 --> 00:42:16,880
with soul, which makes people
trust them and their tone.

774
00:42:17,360 --> 00:42:19,840
As you listen to more episodes,
you'll realize that the tone of

775
00:42:19,840 --> 00:42:22,920
the show is almost like a logo
to the show.

776
00:42:22,920 --> 00:42:25,120
It's something that they it's
stamped on there.

777
00:42:25,440 --> 00:42:28,560
It feels the same in all the
episodes, even though they're

778
00:42:28,560 --> 00:42:31,640
talking about different things.
They've built emotional safety

779
00:42:31,640 --> 00:42:35,240
around a messy topic, so it
dives into pettiness and

780
00:42:35,280 --> 00:42:37,840
jealousy and judgement, but it
never feels cruel.

781
00:42:38,480 --> 00:42:43,280
So how can you create a place
where things that are messy

782
00:42:43,480 --> 00:42:46,440
don't feel cruel?
Things that are and things you

783
00:42:46,440 --> 00:42:49,240
know, might not normally talk
about are things that are

784
00:42:49,240 --> 00:42:50,680
comfortable to talk about on
your show.

785
00:42:51,000 --> 00:42:54,560
And then the third thing that
really we kind of get from it is

786
00:42:55,200 --> 00:42:59,440
it creates a safe chaos and it
lets people confront their flaws

787
00:42:59,760 --> 00:43:02,680
without feeling attacked.
And they come back for more of

788
00:43:02,680 --> 00:43:06,320
that in a way that allows them
to connect with these people in

789
00:43:06,320 --> 00:43:09,920
these in these episodes.
So it's really safe.

790
00:43:09,920 --> 00:43:12,280
Chaos, I think is a good term
for that.

791
00:43:13,280 --> 00:43:15,640
But yeah, I mean, that's really
some of the obsession where they

792
00:43:15,640 --> 00:43:16,720
takeaways.
Yeah.

793
00:43:16,720 --> 00:43:19,200
Thank you, Jonathan.
I think that one of the things

794
00:43:19,200 --> 00:43:23,000
that's coming across my mind
right now is that I know there

795
00:43:23,000 --> 00:43:25,800
are a lot of podcasters that
might be listening right now

796
00:43:25,800 --> 00:43:28,760
saying, but, you know, I'm not
really a storytelling podcast

797
00:43:29,440 --> 00:43:33,560
like Sid does, a show where he's
interviewing people from the

798
00:43:33,560 --> 00:43:35,560
office furniture industry,
right?

799
00:43:35,760 --> 00:43:40,520
But the truth of the matter is,
is that Sid can and does share

800
00:43:40,520 --> 00:43:44,160
stories along the way during the
interview, and his guests share

801
00:43:44,160 --> 00:43:48,040
stories along the way.
Storytelling is one of the, if

802
00:43:48,040 --> 00:43:52,000
not the best ways for human
beings to learn.

803
00:43:52,600 --> 00:43:55,880
So I want to encourage you, if
you're listening right now

804
00:43:55,880 --> 00:43:58,720
saying this is all great, but it
doesn't apply to me.

805
00:43:58,720 --> 00:44:03,560
I would encourage you to rethink
that or at least question it and

806
00:44:03,560 --> 00:44:06,760
ask yourself, maybe you're not
telling enough stories and ask

807
00:44:06,760 --> 00:44:09,680
yourself, maybe that's this
missing link.

808
00:44:09,680 --> 00:44:13,160
Maybe that's the struggle I'm
having right now to build my

809
00:44:13,160 --> 00:44:17,160
community, to build my audience.
I think the storytelling part

810
00:44:17,160 --> 00:44:21,480
makes us human and makes us
relatable, as we were sharing

811
00:44:21,480 --> 00:44:26,320
earlier today on the show.
And I would also add that if you

812
00:44:26,360 --> 00:44:30,400
are taking yourself out of your
podcast in a way that you're not

813
00:44:30,400 --> 00:44:32,480
sharing stories, you're not
sharing who you are, you're not

814
00:44:32,640 --> 00:44:36,240
allowing people to see the human
behind the podcast, that's

815
00:44:36,240 --> 00:44:38,600
probably one of the reasons why
you're having trouble connecting

816
00:44:38,600 --> 00:44:41,280
with your audience, because
people want to see the human

817
00:44:41,360 --> 00:44:44,520
behind the information.
Yeah, I think what you're really

818
00:44:44,520 --> 00:44:47,440
alluding to, and not alluding to
just saying like a shot across

819
00:44:47,440 --> 00:44:52,640
the bow is this is the way we
battle the AI slop because AI

820
00:44:52,640 --> 00:44:55,720
will never be able to tell the
stories of what you've gone

821
00:44:55,720 --> 00:44:57,280
through in your life.
Think about your like, my

822
00:44:57,280 --> 00:45:01,160
earliest remembrance is my mom
at bedtime reading me bedtime

823
00:45:01,160 --> 00:45:03,840
stories.
Life is just a collection of

824
00:45:03,840 --> 00:45:07,600
story after story after story.
That's what binds us together as

825
00:45:07,600 --> 00:45:09,880
human beings.
And that's something that AI

826
00:45:09,880 --> 00:45:12,760
will never be able to replace,
ever.

827
00:45:13,240 --> 00:45:14,800
And that is the secret sauce to
this.

828
00:45:15,080 --> 00:45:16,680
Agreed.
Love that point, Ralph.

829
00:45:16,680 --> 00:45:18,800
Thank you for bringing that up.
Yeah, it is.

830
00:45:18,800 --> 00:45:20,960
It.
This is what keeps our podcasts

831
00:45:20,960 --> 00:45:23,560
human.
And that's not to say you can't

832
00:45:23,560 --> 00:45:26,520
use AI to help you along the
way, right.

833
00:45:26,520 --> 00:45:29,680
You might use AI to help you
tell your story better.

834
00:45:29,880 --> 00:45:33,160
I wouldn't be surprised if we
found out the host of this show

835
00:45:33,480 --> 00:45:36,920
that she uses AI to help her
fill in some of those details I

836
00:45:36,920 --> 00:45:40,880
was asking about earlier, right?
And some of that's okay to do,

837
00:45:40,880 --> 00:45:42,680
right?
But Ralph has got such a great

838
00:45:42,680 --> 00:45:46,360
point is that AI is never going
to be able to tell the story the

839
00:45:46,360 --> 00:45:49,360
way we experienced it.
Yeah, that's I was going to say

840
00:45:49,360 --> 00:45:51,520
his AI is a great tool.
It's kind of like a hammer.

841
00:45:51,520 --> 00:45:54,000
When you use a hammer correctly,
it builds beautiful things.

842
00:45:54,320 --> 00:45:57,200
But if you use a, if you use a
hammer incorrectly, it destroys

843
00:45:57,200 --> 00:45:58,280
things.
Yeah.

844
00:45:58,760 --> 00:46:01,400
Anything else, Jonathan?
I will just say that if you want

845
00:46:01,400 --> 00:46:04,240
to see that we're actually
obsession worthy podcasts came

846
00:46:04,240 --> 00:46:08,360
from, grab those the videos of
the podcasting conference

847
00:46:08,360 --> 00:46:10,520
because that's where I first
talk about obsession worthy

848
00:46:10,520 --> 00:46:14,760
podcasts and how to create them.
So that is my talk in those in

849
00:46:14,760 --> 00:46:17,240
that group of empowered
podcasting talks.

850
00:46:17,640 --> 00:46:20,120
So that's where this came from.
Yeah, way to tie it back.

851
00:46:20,160 --> 00:46:22,080
There you go to that.
Yeah, that's awesome.

852
00:46:22,080 --> 00:46:24,840
Thank you.
And I will remind you again that

853
00:46:24,840 --> 00:46:30,560
yes, you can get that whole 25
plus video series, including

854
00:46:30,560 --> 00:46:33,760
Jonathan's Obsession Worthy
podcast talk.

855
00:46:34,160 --> 00:46:37,880
You can get all of that at
ironicmedia.com/courses slash

856
00:46:37,880 --> 00:46:42,080
EPC 2025.
That will be in the show notes

857
00:46:42,080 --> 00:46:44,040
as well.
So we're back tomorrow with a

858
00:46:44,040 --> 00:46:48,080
new segment, a new series that
we haven't really named yet.

859
00:46:48,080 --> 00:46:52,360
Does anyone want to help me
share really what maybe Ralph,

860
00:46:52,360 --> 00:46:56,160
because Ralph, you were I think
maybe the catalyst to this idea

861
00:46:56,520 --> 00:46:59,040
on what we're going to start
doing Tuesdays Sure my.

862
00:46:59,040 --> 00:47:02,240
Thought was Tuesdays we're going
to talk about the battle scars

863
00:47:02,240 --> 00:47:05,240
that each of us have in our
podcasting journey.

864
00:47:05,480 --> 00:47:07,640
The things we've learned along
the way, the things that we

865
00:47:07,640 --> 00:47:10,280
could have done differently or
should have, should have, could

866
00:47:10,280 --> 00:47:13,040
have, would have, ought, as my
mom used to say, the things we

867
00:47:13,040 --> 00:47:14,880
wish we had known when we got
started.

868
00:47:15,120 --> 00:47:17,040
That's what I think we're going
to start looking at on Tuesdays.

869
00:47:17,040 --> 00:47:18,680
I don't want to speak for the
whole group, but that's kind of

870
00:47:18,680 --> 00:47:21,680
what what I was thinking is what
did we learn along the way?

871
00:47:21,680 --> 00:47:24,120
What were the things that that
we wish we had done differently

872
00:47:24,160 --> 00:47:26,520
so that we can help the people
who are listening every day to

873
00:47:26,560 --> 00:47:30,120
to maybe not make those same
mistakes or not go into those

874
00:47:30,120 --> 00:47:32,920
tangents that we went into?
So what you're saying, Ralph, is

875
00:47:32,920 --> 00:47:36,680
that we're doing a show tomorrow
that will be both educational

876
00:47:36,680 --> 00:47:39,360
and very relatable?
Amen.

877
00:47:39,360 --> 00:47:40,600
Well said, Mark.
Yes.

878
00:47:40,720 --> 00:47:44,200
OK, So TuneIn tomorrow if you'd
like to join us live 7:00 AM

879
00:47:44,200 --> 00:47:47,360
Eastern, we are Live Today.
We're also live on LinkedIn.

880
00:47:47,360 --> 00:47:49,400
I thought I'd try another
platform today.

881
00:47:49,400 --> 00:47:53,880
So you might have found us today
via LinkedIn, but join us

882
00:47:54,000 --> 00:47:59,560
wherever suits you live,
YouTube, Clubhouse chatter,

883
00:47:59,800 --> 00:48:01,880
etcetera.
Or of course, you can get the

884
00:48:01,880 --> 00:48:05,720
podcast just a couple hours
later on your favorite podcast

885
00:48:05,720 --> 00:48:09,800
platform and of course at
podcasting morning chat.com.

886
00:48:10,080 --> 00:48:14,320
So until tomorrow, make it a
great day everybody take care.