Patently Brilliant: Inside the Mind of Attorney Austin Bonderer on Protecting Ideas and Innovation

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I'm looking forward to it. We're live. I'm looking

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forward to learning more about you and talking

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patents. Wow. OK. Hi, everyone. It's me again,

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Adrienne Barker. And I guess my bangs look great

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just to get that out of the way. I am so excited.

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Look who I have that's brilliant, bold, not bald,

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but very handsome, very handsome, attorney Austin

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Bonderer. And I hope I said that right. I forgot

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to ask you. Exactly. It wasn't until Roger Federer

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came onto the scene that people could pronounce

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my last name, so. Oh, well, I do debate the news

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true crime like you know, so so many murders

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out there. I've learned how to like pronounce

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names. So hi OK, so I the only thing I know about

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you is that you're a patent attorney and I put

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some information everyone in the chat. But tell

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me more about you like I just I'm so excited

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to talk to a patent attorney. Where are you located?

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First of all? So I have offices in California,

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Florida, and currently I'm in my Alabama office

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in Fairhope, Alabama. And if I was in Connecticut,

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would I be able to use you or only in those three

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states? No, exactly. So patents are federal issues.

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So your patent attorney can be located anywhere.

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So I basically tell them, hey, find the person

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that works that you like the best, that you work

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with. Because at the end of the day, it really

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is teamwork. you know your invention better than

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I ever possibly could. I'll do the best I can.

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So we have to work together to get your ideas

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through me on the paper and to the office. Oh,

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so many questions. But first, yes, introduce

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yourself and tell us about what makes you, you.

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Well, what makes me me? So I grew up in this

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area, kind of, and then I end up going up to

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Virginia. And then after I graduated, I worked

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at the patent office as a patent examiner for

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like five and a half years. During that time,

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I went to law school at night, got my degree.

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Then when I came out and eventually moved to

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California, I started working for a company called

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Foxconn. A lot of people know them because they

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make the iPhones and stuff like that. I was very

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surprised. Never thought with this type of degree

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that I would go international. So I got to travel

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a lot, especially through Asia, you know, doing

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stuff. And I was like, wow, this is great. But

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eventually I decided I just wanted to open up

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my own firm. And now I'm a one man solo operation.

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And I've been doing this for over 25 years. And,

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you know, I think I'm pretty successful. I've

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been listed on over 700 issued US patents. And

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I enjoy what I do and love working with people.

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Wow, OK, so what was it like being a like being

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a would you say examiner patent examiner? Yeah,

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so me and Einstein we were both patent examiner,

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so we're pretty similar in that. Right, but so

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being a patent examiner it you you are you work

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for the government and basically what you do

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is you filter out patent applications to try

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to figure out which ones does deserve a patent

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and which ones don't. And this is all based on

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legal, but also a lot of factual, technical items.

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Because that's one of the reasons why you have

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to be either an engineer or a scientist, and

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then go to law school before you can become a

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patent attorney. Because it's very technical

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in nature, a lot of the arguments that we have

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to make. Wow. OK, so how many patent attorneys

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actually worked for the patent office? Probably

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a lot. Is that common? Yeah, it was well, especially

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those who lived and work in the DC area in the

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mid Atlantic and that because it's easy for them

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to go. But when I was out on the West Coast or

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you know, my very few people had worked for the

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patent office because it's just further away.

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So I mean, if you if you find attorneys on the

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mid Atlantic and somewhere in that area, you're

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likely to find people who have worked for the

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patent office. But the further you get away from

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it, the less likely it is. So I'm thinking of

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all my questions and I'm thinking, my gosh, I

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bet you a lot of them are myths, right? Like,

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oh, you can only have a patent for 20 years or

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50 or whatever that myth is. Are you familiar

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with some of those myths that we can dispel right

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away? Yeah, so it is true. Your patent is only

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valid 20 years from the date of filing unless

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there's some other circumstances. But the big

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one I always keep hearing is, and this used to

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work, but it doesn't work anymore. What if I

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write down my invention and mail it to myself

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and keep it in that sealed envelope? Am I protected?

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No, you're not. So that was basically like back

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in the old system. It was first to invent one,

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but you can invent first and be the second to

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the patent office. And then you'd have to have

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this huge legal fight. Eventually the patent

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office and the government said, this is too complicated.

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We're going to make it so that the first to the

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office always wins. If you invent something and

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you let it sit on the shelf in your head for

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over a year or whatever it is, and someone comes

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up afterwards and then beats you to the office,

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they're going to get the patent and you're not.

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Okay, wait. So let's just do these one at a time

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because this is so interesting. So let's say

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I do, I'm in the store and not retail, but let's

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just say I go to someone's house and they share.

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And I'm like, oh my God, I love that you created

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this walker that your child can ride on. The

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one year old can go on and feel like they're

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riding a bike. That's amazing. I'm like, that's

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awesome. And I take it in my head and then I

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go to Google and I'm like, oh wow, they never

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did anything with it. And I know how they made

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it. I could just send it off and see what happens.

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It's too bad they didn't do anything with it.

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And he probably won't. He never does anything

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with all of his ideas. That's what I'm thinking.

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So is that how people steal? Like one of the

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ways they see it? Well, you can't steal the idea.

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What I was talking about, say like someone independent,

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like say you're in New York and they're in LA,

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you know, something like that. But if someone

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actually So when you file for a patent application,

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you have to sign this oath and declaration stating

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you believe you are the true and only inventor

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of this item. So if you kind of got it from somebody

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else and then filed it, you'd be lying on that

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paperwork. So therefore, you wouldn't be eligible

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for the patent. Now, if you totally came up with

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this idea independent of what you saw, from your

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buddy or whatever, then you could file for it.

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Or this sometimes happens, I call it shaking

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the tree. Anytime you show somebody something,

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they're gonna think of something to make it better

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or change something. They look at it from a different

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paradigm. So if you saw your buddy's walker,

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bicycle, baby thing, and you're like, you know

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what, that's kind of cool, but it would be a

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lot cooler if it did this, this, and this. You

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could file a patent application for that with

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no problems. Wow, OK, silly question is the patent

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office still open? Are they are they closed now

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for the furlough? I I got that question the other

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day and I mean, I have to say I haven't been

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really paying attention to the the shutdown,

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but they are now self funded, so I don't know

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if they get shut down because all their fees

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actually cover all their cost, so their funding

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is. already there. So I'm not exactly sure if

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they're closed or not. It's not like I haven't

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called a patent examiner or anything at this

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point in time. I'm still working and sending

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stuff because my deadlines are set. They don't

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change if the, you know, if the office is closed

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or not. So, yeah. So why would, why would a business

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or as someone who has a, why would they have

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a deadline? What is a deadline on a patent? What

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would that look like? Well, I mean, so, you know,

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we try to get the stuff filed as soon as possible.

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But, you know, when the office action review,

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when the office reviews your patent application

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and they give you an office action, you only

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have a certain period of time to respond or you

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have considered to have abandoned your application.

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And then you either have to pay a lot of money

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and a lot of time to get that revived or you

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just let it go. So we have deadlines once the

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examination process starts. OK, that makes sense.

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I wasn't sure if they were holding something

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up or not going to retail with a product. I mean,

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that would be pretty crazy to you. You have to

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create like a proof when you have it. What do

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you have to show the patent office? Do you have

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to have the the proof of like performance, the

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completion of the product or the idea? When I

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was there and maybe they've come up with some

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other things, but there's only two. They believe

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you know if it makes technical sense and we kind

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of understand it, then we say hey. it's enabled.

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You don't have to build it. In other words, you

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don't have to build that experimental airplane

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if someone of skill and art can build it based

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upon what you told them in the application. However,

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at the time that I remember, there might be more

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now, but if you have a machine that affects the

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weather, you would actually have to show that

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you've done that. And the other one was a perpetual

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motion machine, which according to laws of physics

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would be very almost theoretically not possible.

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So, you know, people say like, hey, I have this

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machine and there's no loss due to friction or

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this and that. And then you would have your perpetual

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motion. They're like, we want to see that. Oh,

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that's interesting. What about software as a

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service for patents? It's very difficult to get

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a patent on software now. There are certain niches

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where you can, but most people who come to me

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is like, hey, I have this software I want to

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do. And if your software on its most basic form

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is taking in information, processing it with

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either algorithms or steps, and or comparing

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it to a database and then spitting out an answer,

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you're not going to get a patent on that. Generally,

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I mean, there are exceptions to every rule. But

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the Supreme Court came out and said that software

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itself has always been unpatentable. But we came

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up with these loopholes saying well, it's on

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a computer and the computer is a physical object

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Therefore, it's not abstract anymore Can we patent

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the software and they you know, we did for a

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long time and then the spring part said that's

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just clever trickery We're not gonna do that

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so Wow So you can't have that strict idea. So

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one of the things I tell people is like look

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if you took you know, someone who's extremely

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bright and can remember everything and all stuff.

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If they can, if they can do it all in their head.

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I mean, obviously computers make it much harder,

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you know, can do much more, but just say for

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argument, someone could possibly do all the stuff

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in their head, take in the information, process

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it, spit out result. You're not going to get

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a patent on it. Okay. That makes sense. What

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about in the health industry, all of these supplements

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that are coming out, that they say they're patented,

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and is it just one change? Like, how does that

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work for the health industry and patented in

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that product? Well, supplements sometimes, if

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you found a new use for an old product. So there

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used to be this thing we talked about, aspirin,

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right? You could not patent aspirin because it

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had been around for so long. But remember when

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aspirin was discovered to be a treatment for

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a heart attack? So you could patent the method

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of treating a heart attack with aspirin because

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that was new. So with these supplements, sometimes

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what they'll do is they'll come in and they'll

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say, oh, for, you know, a method of treating

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some kind of underlying condition with these,

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the supplement, even though that supplements,

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you know, that weed or whatever has been around

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forever. You know, if you've discovered that

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it can do something. to the body, then you can

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sometimes patent that. Another thing is, is that

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sometimes take like, you know how your milk has

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vitamin D in it? Because what they found was

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calcium gets absorbed a lot better if you have

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vitamin D with it. So if you were able, if you

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came up with a combination of known items, but

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they were, their actions were greater than the

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sum of their parts, then you could get a patent

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on that. Okay, this is so interesting. All right,

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so let's let's talk about Internationally what

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is taking place? So your patent is only good

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in the United States, correct? Is that true?

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Okay, but then there's been a lot of talks about

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patents of the beings being the intellectual

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property being stolen from other countries Why

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how can how could a person protect? Can you give

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me a little history on this? Claim well, I mean

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obviously the big you know, complain is with

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China is that they will steal intellectual property

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or ignore intellectual property. Right. So it's

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not even most of it is because when we write

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a patent application, we have to tell someone

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how to make and use it. It's supposed to teach

00:13:17.210 --> 00:13:20.029
people how to do it. But if the country doesn't

00:13:20.029 --> 00:13:24.269
respect the patent, right. Because a lot of companies

00:13:24.269 --> 00:13:26.250
file in China and say, hey, we have a patent

00:13:26.250 --> 00:13:28.389
here. You can't steal this. And they're kind

00:13:28.389 --> 00:13:32.070
of like, well, you know, Maybe, maybe not. Maybe

00:13:32.070 --> 00:13:33.750
we'll enforce it. Maybe we won't. And that's

00:13:33.750 --> 00:13:37.909
where you get into the issues of, if it's super

00:13:37.909 --> 00:13:40.889
valuable, it's going to get stolen, be used.

00:13:41.289 --> 00:13:42.889
Chances are they're not going to respect your

00:13:42.889 --> 00:13:45.830
intellectual property rights. You have to go

00:13:45.830 --> 00:13:49.149
to the courts there. They may or may not favor

00:13:49.149 --> 00:13:53.929
the hometown guy over us coming in. So that's

00:13:53.929 --> 00:13:57.250
what you're dealing with when it comes to other

00:13:57.250 --> 00:14:00.659
countries with your intellectual property. So

00:14:00.659 --> 00:14:03.620
how do you protect yourself? Well, the best thing

00:14:03.620 --> 00:14:05.940
you can do is get a patent in that country. I

00:14:05.940 --> 00:14:08.360
mean, if it's if your information is disclosed,

00:14:08.399 --> 00:14:10.759
at least you have some leg to stand on and try

00:14:10.759 --> 00:14:13.559
to enforce it in that country. So, you know,

00:14:13.639 --> 00:14:16.399
one of the things I tell clients is that, you

00:14:16.399 --> 00:14:19.059
know, we have a discussion if you want to file

00:14:19.059 --> 00:14:22.299
internationally, filing internationally. Like

00:14:22.299 --> 00:14:24.460
you said, it's local. Every single country has

00:14:24.460 --> 00:14:26.519
its own little patents, and that gets very expensive.

00:14:27.019 --> 00:14:30.460
But, say you're building a product, like a small

00:14:30.460 --> 00:14:33.539
product or something like this, nothing too complicated,

00:14:33.620 --> 00:14:35.580
and you know it's going to be manufactured in

00:14:35.580 --> 00:14:37.980
either India, Vietnam, China, this kind of stuff.

00:14:38.580 --> 00:14:41.120
File in those countries, because even though

00:14:41.120 --> 00:14:42.879
you're not going to spend the time and money

00:14:42.879 --> 00:14:45.820
that it costs to file it in the EU, where there's

00:14:45.820 --> 00:14:49.399
a large market for these items, if you're able

00:14:49.399 --> 00:14:52.679
to control the means of production in these low

00:14:52.679 --> 00:14:55.179
-cost manufacturing centers by using a patent

00:14:55.179 --> 00:14:57.639
and saying, hey, You might be able to build this

00:14:57.639 --> 00:14:59.919
in the EU, but you cannot build it here because

00:14:59.919 --> 00:15:03.620
I have the patent on it. You will likely be able

00:15:03.620 --> 00:15:07.820
to beat them in the marketplace because you have

00:15:07.820 --> 00:15:11.220
a cheaper good because it was manufactured in

00:15:11.220 --> 00:15:13.820
a cheaper area. So even though you don't have

00:15:13.820 --> 00:15:16.919
a patent in the EU, you still may be able to

00:15:16.919 --> 00:15:19.779
maintain a competitive advantage because you

00:15:19.779 --> 00:15:23.870
control the production. I like Dune. So I always

00:15:23.870 --> 00:15:26.210
say he who controls the production controls the

00:15:26.210 --> 00:15:31.269
universe. Okay. I like that a lot. I would like

00:15:31.269 --> 00:15:33.490
to hear some stories if you wouldn't mind. So

00:15:33.490 --> 00:15:37.629
I would love to hear when you had to say no to

00:15:37.629 --> 00:15:40.309
someone that their idea was good, but you just

00:15:40.309 --> 00:15:43.389
didn't feel that it was at and worthy. Not sure

00:15:43.389 --> 00:15:46.789
of the right word. Yes. I mean, I have to tell

00:15:46.789 --> 00:15:48.850
people. I mean, I don't tell them that, you know.

00:15:49.039 --> 00:15:51.580
If I go through it and we do a prior art search

00:15:51.580 --> 00:15:55.759
and I think that it's not going to obtain a patent

00:15:55.759 --> 00:15:59.240
status, it'll be rejected and we're just wasting

00:15:59.240 --> 00:16:02.259
money, I'll tell them I wouldn't invest my money

00:16:02.259 --> 00:16:06.220
in this. Now, when it comes to commercial viability,

00:16:07.320 --> 00:16:09.159
I have to tell you that I've seen some products

00:16:09.159 --> 00:16:11.200
come across my desk and this is going to be the

00:16:11.200 --> 00:16:13.259
greatest thing. I'm so excited. I can't wait

00:16:13.259 --> 00:16:14.620
till this guy gets on the market. It's going

00:16:14.620 --> 00:16:17.860
to be great. No. It hasn't gone anywhere, right?

00:16:17.980 --> 00:16:19.460
And then you'll see some things I'm like, are

00:16:19.460 --> 00:16:21.080
you sure you really want? You really want? No,

00:16:21.179 --> 00:16:23.059
I believe in the product. And then she makes

00:16:23.059 --> 00:16:25.860
millions of dollars. So it's kind of like one

00:16:25.860 --> 00:16:28.019
of these things where I've learned that that's

00:16:28.019 --> 00:16:30.399
not my place. I'm like the marketability and

00:16:30.399 --> 00:16:32.659
stuff, that's someone else. If you believe in

00:16:32.659 --> 00:16:34.639
the product, you believe there's a niche, that's

00:16:34.639 --> 00:16:37.279
for you to decide. That's the business decision.

00:16:38.000 --> 00:16:40.120
I'm the law guy. I'll give you the legal stuff,

00:16:40.259 --> 00:16:44.230
but you do the business. But wouldn't that be

00:16:44.230 --> 00:16:46.429
what I would want in a patent attorney is someone

00:16:46.429 --> 00:16:50.190
with that attitude that is going to be positive

00:16:50.190 --> 00:16:52.269
and not try to talk me out of something. And

00:16:52.269 --> 00:16:53.990
I'm not saying others would, but I love your

00:16:53.990 --> 00:16:57.750
answer. Because in my mind, you're right. You're

00:16:57.750 --> 00:16:59.769
recognizing your zone of genius and saying, you

00:16:59.769 --> 00:17:02.230
know what? You're not going to make a recommendation

00:17:02.230 --> 00:17:04.230
either way. You're going to move forward unless

00:17:04.230 --> 00:17:08.509
you see. So what happens that way is that they

00:17:08.509 --> 00:17:10.109
love the item. You're like, this is actually

00:17:10.109 --> 00:17:12.740
a cool product. And then you examine it. What

00:17:12.740 --> 00:17:16.220
would be an issue in the examination part of

00:17:16.220 --> 00:17:18.980
it that you're doing before it even gets to the

00:17:18.980 --> 00:17:20.859
patent office, right? You're doing your own kind

00:17:20.859 --> 00:17:26.180
of examination. So if we have to do the prior

00:17:26.180 --> 00:17:28.779
search ahead of time, I received the results

00:17:28.779 --> 00:17:30.839
from the search firm. And, you know, what happens

00:17:30.839 --> 00:17:33.559
is sometimes there's a piece of prior art, which

00:17:33.559 --> 00:17:36.299
we mean by priority, something that existed before.

00:17:36.799 --> 00:17:39.970
And generally, their patents. say there's another

00:17:39.970 --> 00:17:42.910
patent publication out there and it's too close,

00:17:43.390 --> 00:17:46.309
but you know, the examiner is going to see, see

00:17:46.309 --> 00:17:50.589
this and one say, no way Jose, we're not going

00:17:50.589 --> 00:17:53.269
to do this. And then you just wasted all this

00:17:53.269 --> 00:17:56.250
money on paying me to write this patent application,

00:17:56.750 --> 00:17:59.569
getting all the way to that part. So, and you

00:17:59.569 --> 00:18:01.930
know, the first thing I tell my, you know, people

00:18:01.930 --> 00:18:03.730
who call is like, you don't need a patent to

00:18:03.730 --> 00:18:07.480
make money. Look around your home. Half the stuff

00:18:07.480 --> 00:18:10.880
you bought is just Stuff that someone went out

00:18:10.880 --> 00:18:13.259
built you liked it. You paid money for it. They

00:18:13.259 --> 00:18:17.160
made a living and that's how it goes With a patent

00:18:17.160 --> 00:18:19.980
is the person that's looking at the patent Do

00:18:19.980 --> 00:18:22.160
they actually see all the detail of what's in

00:18:22.160 --> 00:18:24.940
the patent or that kept secret for the 20 years?

00:18:25.660 --> 00:18:27.900
Oh, no No, so that's that's kind of the quid

00:18:27.900 --> 00:18:32.779
pro quo is that you have to move technology forward

00:18:32.940 --> 00:18:35.700
And you do that by disclosing in the patent application.

00:18:36.240 --> 00:18:39.039
So you have to enable a patent application to

00:18:39.039 --> 00:18:42.160
teach one of skill in the art to make or use

00:18:42.160 --> 00:18:44.660
the invention. Make and use, not make or use,

00:18:44.880 --> 00:18:49.759
make and use. So you have to convey enough information

00:18:49.759 --> 00:18:52.799
that if someone in that area wanted to make what

00:18:52.799 --> 00:18:59.960
you've invented, they could. The whole point

00:18:59.960 --> 00:19:03.400
is to improve science, improve technology, improve

00:19:03.400 --> 00:19:07.660
our our knowledge as a people. So that's why.

00:19:08.880 --> 00:19:11.880
OK, that is OK. That's interesting. So something.

00:19:12.019 --> 00:19:14.880
Hi, Rebecca. Thank you for being here. If someone

00:19:14.880 --> 00:19:20.670
wanted to. argue a point about their patent they

00:19:20.670 --> 00:19:22.670
they're fighting they they found something and

00:19:22.670 --> 00:19:25.730
they're like it's so similar and Where's that

00:19:25.730 --> 00:19:28.329
fight being taken place? Is it in a federal court?

00:19:29.210 --> 00:19:31.990
Well, that's that okay, so you got two stages

00:19:31.990 --> 00:19:34.549
So the first stage is the patent examiner is

00:19:34.549 --> 00:19:36.970
going to tell you this is too much if they find

00:19:36.970 --> 00:19:40.109
it now Understand they have a limited amount

00:19:40.109 --> 00:19:42.329
of time. They're only searching the United States

00:19:42.329 --> 00:19:45.910
this kind of prior arm So they may miss something

00:19:46.170 --> 00:19:48.710
So I always tell people that, you know, our priority

00:19:48.710 --> 00:19:51.549
search is generally that phase cost client between

00:19:51.549 --> 00:19:56.589
11 to 1600 bucks. Say your patent becomes the

00:19:56.589 --> 00:19:58.630
greatest thing since sliced bread and someone

00:19:58.630 --> 00:20:02.329
wants to do it. Given the amount of money that

00:20:02.329 --> 00:20:04.289
they know is in the market, they might spend

00:20:04.289 --> 00:20:08.430
$100 ,000 on a priority search, which means they

00:20:08.430 --> 00:20:11.579
can go all over the world. They may be searching

00:20:11.579 --> 00:20:17.380
all the way in libraries in Alaska or Korea and

00:20:17.380 --> 00:20:20.200
all these places all over the place because anything

00:20:20.200 --> 00:20:24.140
around the world that predates the date that

00:20:24.140 --> 00:20:26.200
you filed your patent application is considered

00:20:26.200 --> 00:20:30.039
prior art and can be used against you. So say

00:20:30.039 --> 00:20:32.700
they find something. They can either go back

00:20:32.700 --> 00:20:34.619
to the patent office and say, hey, we found this

00:20:34.619 --> 00:20:36.819
piece of prior art. you need to look at this

00:20:36.819 --> 00:20:39.880
patent that you issued in this prior art and

00:20:39.880 --> 00:20:41.799
decide if you still want to have this patent

00:20:41.799 --> 00:20:45.259
issued. Otherwise, you can go to a federal court

00:20:45.259 --> 00:20:48.380
and say, I want this patent invalidated based

00:20:48.380 --> 00:20:51.180
upon this piece of prior art that I found. Wow.

00:20:51.180 --> 00:20:55.799
Yeah. Wow. OK. OK. This is kind of mind blowing

00:20:55.799 --> 00:21:00.700
for me. Are the patents, are they as our patent?

00:21:01.289 --> 00:21:03.670
requests as strong as they used to be? Like where

00:21:03.670 --> 00:21:05.890
is it falling now in the last couple years? Are

00:21:05.890 --> 00:21:08.210
there less applications for patents, do you know?

00:21:08.990 --> 00:21:12.609
That's not something I truly know offhand. I

00:21:12.609 --> 00:21:15.269
assume it's dropped over the past 10 years because

00:21:15.269 --> 00:21:18.549
of software. Software was accounting for a large

00:21:18.549 --> 00:21:21.450
portion of the patent applications and then when

00:21:21.450 --> 00:21:23.849
the Supreme Court and the Alice decision basically

00:21:23.849 --> 00:21:27.029
put a kibosh to that, that whole area just dropped

00:21:27.029 --> 00:21:32.869
off. Okay, that's it. So what can people see?

00:21:33.009 --> 00:21:36.529
Like I know people will confuse trademark copyrights

00:21:36.529 --> 00:21:38.329
and patents, right? It's like that's something.

00:21:38.690 --> 00:21:41.650
So would you mind just taking a minute to just

00:21:41.650 --> 00:21:43.950
kind of clarify that so people really understand

00:21:43.950 --> 00:21:47.930
each of those terms? Right, so copyright is more

00:21:47.930 --> 00:21:50.890
like your entertainment and art. So it's something

00:21:50.890 --> 00:21:53.630
you write, it becomes copyrighted. It's something

00:21:53.630 --> 00:21:57.930
you sing or comes copyrighted. Artwork, copyrighted.

00:21:58.059 --> 00:22:01.359
Characters copyrighted that's how that works

00:22:01.359 --> 00:22:10.079
Trademarks understand they They're there to identify

00:22:10.079 --> 00:22:13.839
a source of goods So while take like McDonald's

00:22:13.839 --> 00:22:15.700
McDonald's has a very strong trademark Everyone

00:22:15.700 --> 00:22:18.079
knows McDonald's everywhere you go all stuff

00:22:18.079 --> 00:22:20.339
And I don't know if you remember the movie coming

00:22:20.339 --> 00:22:23.000
to America the first one pretty old I guess remember

00:22:23.000 --> 00:22:26.059
that there was a place called McDowell's And

00:22:26.059 --> 00:22:27.660
they kept coming like, hey, you're infringing

00:22:27.660 --> 00:22:30.779
our trademark. And the reason is, is that even

00:22:30.779 --> 00:22:33.420
though that trademark is super value to McDonald's

00:22:33.420 --> 00:22:35.920
and they are the ones protecting it and doing

00:22:35.920 --> 00:22:38.460
all the stuff because it is a value to them,

00:22:38.980 --> 00:22:41.980
the true purpose of a trademark is to protect

00:22:41.980 --> 00:22:45.059
the public. Because when you go into something

00:22:45.059 --> 00:22:47.579
that looks like McDonald's, smells like McDonald's,

00:22:47.839 --> 00:22:49.960
you're expecting McDonald's. You want that quality.

00:22:50.440 --> 00:22:54.240
Now say you went into McDowell's, which was the

00:22:54.240 --> 00:22:57.839
fictitious restaurant in coming to America. Say

00:22:57.839 --> 00:23:00.539
you had bad experience. It's because you made

00:23:00.539 --> 00:23:02.420
a quick decision. Something looked like McDonald's.

00:23:02.480 --> 00:23:04.160
You went in there expecting McDonald's and you

00:23:04.160 --> 00:23:08.180
didn't get it. But it's interesting. Like there's

00:23:08.180 --> 00:23:10.140
other trademarks. I mean, I don't know the name

00:23:10.140 --> 00:23:12.319
of the shoe, but I know that women like these

00:23:12.319 --> 00:23:14.859
high heels with the red soles. That red sole

00:23:14.859 --> 00:23:18.519
is a trademark because everyone knows those shoes.

00:23:18.890 --> 00:23:24.069
are from that maker or shoe guy. Same thing with

00:23:24.069 --> 00:23:28.950
Tiffany Blue. Wait, Tiffany Blue? Yeah, like

00:23:28.950 --> 00:23:32.109
the Tiffany's, you know, the... Oh, yeah. Oh,

00:23:32.109 --> 00:23:36.529
God. Tiffany Blue. That strikes fear in the heart

00:23:36.529 --> 00:23:38.450
of every man out there, right? Tiffany Blue,

00:23:38.630 --> 00:23:43.190
like, whoa. That's so true. So this is so interesting.

00:23:43.589 --> 00:23:47.369
But going back to the 20 years, so... So the

00:23:47.369 --> 00:23:49.970
patent would have been on my favorite thing,

00:23:50.130 --> 00:23:52.109
but not my donuts are my favorite thing, but

00:23:52.109 --> 00:23:55.230
hey, I like a good fried chicken. So Colonel

00:23:55.230 --> 00:23:58.450
Sanders, right? He had the patent. And I mean,

00:23:58.589 --> 00:24:00.650
I keep going into every office. No, it wasn't

00:24:00.650 --> 00:24:02.349
a patent. What was it? Well, I think what he

00:24:02.349 --> 00:24:04.490
had a patent on, I think, I mean, if I remember

00:24:04.490 --> 00:24:08.170
the story correctly, he invented a pressure fryer,

00:24:08.609 --> 00:24:11.690
which enabled him to fry chicken much faster

00:24:11.690 --> 00:24:15.359
than pan fried or deep fried. So by adding the

00:24:15.359 --> 00:24:18.980
pressure he was able to get batches out more

00:24:18.980 --> 00:24:20.980
so he was able to do that, but he wouldn't have

00:24:20.980 --> 00:24:25.700
been able to Patent the was 11 urgent spices.

00:24:25.880 --> 00:24:27.940
He had to keep that a secret. That's a trade

00:24:27.940 --> 00:24:30.839
secret. It's kind of like coca -cola No one truly

00:24:30.839 --> 00:24:32.779
knows what the formula of coca -cola is even

00:24:32.779 --> 00:24:35.259
though it's been out there for you know hundreds

00:24:35.259 --> 00:24:41.069
of years Yes, oh no, it's so interesting and

00:24:41.069 --> 00:24:44.490
20 years goes by fast I mean actually how many

00:24:44.490 --> 00:24:46.869
companies what was there scramble before they

00:24:46.869 --> 00:24:49.869
hit the 20th year to? Reput in a patent what

00:24:49.869 --> 00:24:51.890
what what does the company do if they're really

00:24:51.890 --> 00:24:54.369
concerned that that patent gets released? Well,

00:24:54.410 --> 00:24:56.269
this is you know, this is the argument with the

00:24:56.269 --> 00:24:59.250
pharmaceutical companies So what it is is that

00:24:59.250 --> 00:25:02.869
they keep going back to that aspirin? Situation

00:25:02.869 --> 00:25:05.230
was telling you it's like oh they have this product

00:25:05.400 --> 00:25:08.240
They're doing trials on it. So take Botox. Botox

00:25:08.240 --> 00:25:11.400
was, I mean, Botox, you can't patent botulism.

00:25:11.859 --> 00:25:13.799
I mean, that's been there forever. In fact, it's

00:25:13.799 --> 00:25:16.079
killed a lot of people. Don't eat the cans if

00:25:16.079 --> 00:25:18.019
the can looks like it's blowing up a little bit.

00:25:18.119 --> 00:25:21.059
Right. I mean, that's what we were taught because

00:25:21.059 --> 00:25:24.160
that was botulism. But they originally started

00:25:24.160 --> 00:25:27.160
using it to treat people who had like excessive

00:25:27.160 --> 00:25:29.380
sweating in their underarms and their palms and

00:25:29.380 --> 00:25:31.920
stuff like that. Oh, they realize those these

00:25:31.920 --> 00:25:35.230
wrinkles are going away. So. they were able to

00:25:35.230 --> 00:25:37.730
patent the, and then, you know, it may have been

00:25:37.730 --> 00:25:39.549
years later that they figured out, oh, it does

00:25:39.549 --> 00:25:43.769
wrinkles. So, you know, treating wrinkles, they

00:25:43.769 --> 00:25:48.950
were able to patent botulism to do that. So that

00:25:48.950 --> 00:25:51.269
is so interesting. So do you think there's like

00:25:51.269 --> 00:25:57.529
people scrambling right now to take Tylenol and

00:25:57.529 --> 00:26:05.240
re -patent it for those with... whatever there

00:26:05.240 --> 00:26:06.799
was a discussion, I can't even remember now,

00:26:07.099 --> 00:26:10.740
with the discussion regarding another use for

00:26:10.740 --> 00:26:13.819
it, or don't use it, it causes autism. Right,

00:26:13.859 --> 00:26:17.039
right. That wouldn't really be something for

00:26:17.039 --> 00:26:19.759
patents. It's more of what can you do, not what

00:26:19.759 --> 00:26:23.859
can't you do. Okay, that's good. I think my questions

00:26:23.859 --> 00:26:26.799
are really a... Like naturally, like I think

00:26:26.799 --> 00:26:28.920
as a business person, we really, unless you really

00:26:28.920 --> 00:26:31.980
have the opportunity, I've seen patents in the

00:26:31.980 --> 00:26:34.099
promotional products industry, logo merchandise

00:26:34.099 --> 00:26:36.640
industry, where people have something so unique

00:26:36.640 --> 00:26:38.720
and they've patented it. And I've always been

00:26:38.720 --> 00:26:40.740
like, okay, what's going to happen? What happens

00:26:40.740 --> 00:26:43.200
at 20 years? How are you keeping it? But I see

00:26:43.200 --> 00:26:45.660
now why sometimes a little change is made and

00:26:45.660 --> 00:26:48.640
then that kind of starts you back to zero. Well,

00:26:48.640 --> 00:26:53.240
I mean, if the change is patentable. So, so in

00:26:53.240 --> 00:26:56.019
order to be patentable, You need to be, one,

00:26:56.019 --> 00:27:01.000
useful, two, novel, like totally new. So little

00:27:01.000 --> 00:27:05.099
changes will get you past the novel bar. But

00:27:05.099 --> 00:27:07.920
the other thing is, it can't be obvious. The

00:27:07.920 --> 00:27:12.380
change cannot be obvious. So, you know, if you're

00:27:12.380 --> 00:27:14.660
adding something and it makes total sense to

00:27:14.660 --> 00:27:16.720
add that, anyone, if they really would have thought

00:27:16.720 --> 00:27:19.200
about it, would have added that, or the prior

00:27:19.200 --> 00:27:22.140
art teaches that, you know, adding element B,

00:27:22.480 --> 00:27:25.460
you know, increases. So say you have a knife

00:27:25.460 --> 00:27:27.720
that, oh, I have a knife. Okay, that's the priority.

00:27:28.200 --> 00:27:32.240
Then you put a can opener on the end of it. It's

00:27:32.240 --> 00:27:35.839
not something necessarily totally obvious, but

00:27:35.839 --> 00:27:37.400
according to the patent office, I'm sure they

00:27:37.400 --> 00:27:40.319
would say, hey, this is in the kitchen. It's

00:27:40.319 --> 00:27:42.160
in the area. It would have been beneficial to

00:27:42.160 --> 00:27:45.740
have a bottle opener on the end of a knife. That

00:27:45.740 --> 00:27:48.539
is so interesting. Hi Mary Kim, how are you?

00:27:50.300 --> 00:27:53.339
I'm great. How are you? I'm excited to be here

00:27:53.339 --> 00:27:55.759
and learn. Thank you, Adrienne. Oh, no, you're

00:27:55.759 --> 00:27:57.500
fine. This is such an interesting conversation

00:27:57.500 --> 00:28:02.440
with attorney bonderer on patents. Have you ever

00:28:02.440 --> 00:28:06.900
thought of having a patent? I don't. I mean,

00:28:06.900 --> 00:28:10.220
who knows what comes for the future. But the

00:28:10.220 --> 00:28:15.480
pacifier business I'm part of, the pacifier itself

00:28:15.480 --> 00:28:21.980
is patented. I know that. I would say that in

00:28:21.980 --> 00:28:25.619
general the the baby like the people that typically

00:28:25.619 --> 00:28:27.960
called me the most out of the blue were always

00:28:27.960 --> 00:28:31.839
new parents or pet owners and they're always

00:28:31.839 --> 00:28:33.859
thinking there's got to be better ways of doing

00:28:33.859 --> 00:28:37.660
this. So yeah, there's a lot of that's my friend

00:28:37.660 --> 00:28:40.119
who had the like there had to be a better way

00:28:40.119 --> 00:28:44.059
to cover the pacifier that her daughter loved,

00:28:44.079 --> 00:28:46.519
which was attached to a small stuffed animal.

00:28:46.519 --> 00:28:50.190
So she created one. Oh, I love that, Mary Kim.

00:28:50.589 --> 00:28:52.849
I love that. Let me know if you have any questions,

00:28:52.910 --> 00:28:55.490
because I've asked a lot of questions to someone

00:28:55.490 --> 00:28:59.390
who really has no clue about patents and understanding

00:28:59.390 --> 00:29:02.390
them. So that's a cool story. I love that, Mary

00:29:02.390 --> 00:29:05.589
Kim. I'm kind of curious. OK, so what was a patent

00:29:05.589 --> 00:29:07.809
attorney bonder that you absolutely loved, and

00:29:07.809 --> 00:29:10.609
they were awarded it, and where is it today?

00:29:11.150 --> 00:29:14.670
Are you able to share the actual product itself,

00:29:14.730 --> 00:29:17.859
or just a story? Well, I love I mean, like, I

00:29:17.859 --> 00:29:20.599
really enjoy all my clients and the ones that

00:29:20.599 --> 00:29:22.859
do it and they move forward. And, you know, I

00:29:22.859 --> 00:29:25.559
would say that most of the patents that I work

00:29:25.559 --> 00:29:29.680
with, they are, how do you say, like very niche

00:29:29.680 --> 00:29:31.799
in their market. So it's not stuff that you would

00:29:31.799 --> 00:29:34.319
see every day, but it's things that makes people's

00:29:34.319 --> 00:29:37.279
lives better. One of the things was, is when

00:29:37.279 --> 00:29:40.720
I was first at the patent office, my first day

00:29:40.720 --> 00:29:43.700
I sat in an interview, and it was the it was

00:29:43.700 --> 00:29:47.170
the guy who invented, you know, the The hate

00:29:47.170 --> 00:29:53.069
like the foam soap dispenser Okay, I use it that

00:29:53.069 --> 00:29:55.430
wasn't around when I first started and this guy

00:29:55.430 --> 00:29:58.710
came in the office argued with the patent examiner

00:29:58.710 --> 00:30:02.109
one and got a patent on that and then You can

00:30:02.109 --> 00:30:04.829
only imagine these I mean it's in so many of

00:30:04.829 --> 00:30:09.140
our you know soap dispensers now That's so funny.

00:30:09.200 --> 00:30:10.740
And the other day, I actually looked to see,

00:30:10.779 --> 00:30:13.460
like, how do you make, like, Dawn foam? And then

00:30:13.460 --> 00:30:15.039
it just looked so complicated. I just bought

00:30:15.039 --> 00:30:17.660
two more bottles. You know, because now they

00:30:17.660 --> 00:30:20.119
have the dishwashers, the dishwasher. But personally,

00:30:20.140 --> 00:30:23.180
I love foam soap. So that, oh, wow, that must

00:30:23.180 --> 00:30:26.000
have been a great meeting. Austin Mary Kim actually

00:30:26.000 --> 00:30:29.579
worked as a patent examiner. So it's just so

00:30:29.579 --> 00:30:33.039
cool. How many hours would you put into one patent

00:30:33.039 --> 00:30:37.160
that you're reviewing? Is it like a ton of hours

00:30:37.160 --> 00:30:44.119
and a ton of work? It can be. Every art has different

00:30:44.119 --> 00:30:48.700
hours that they allot you as an examiner to spend

00:30:48.700 --> 00:30:50.759
on. It's actually a production -based business.

00:30:51.240 --> 00:30:53.380
You have to meet production. And basically what

00:30:53.380 --> 00:30:55.740
it is, you have X number of cases or actions

00:30:55.740 --> 00:30:58.420
you need to take within a certain amount of time.

00:31:00.200 --> 00:31:03.180
But there are arts out there that are so complicated

00:31:03.180 --> 00:31:07.079
that they will give you weeks. to do one case.

00:31:07.519 --> 00:31:11.220
And then we have other arts where, no, you got

00:31:11.220 --> 00:31:15.779
like five hours. And that means searching, reviewing,

00:31:15.980 --> 00:31:19.539
writing, and examining, and those kind of things.

00:31:20.140 --> 00:31:23.599
So it just depends upon the art, what you're

00:31:23.599 --> 00:31:26.779
supposed to do. Wow. Before we go, can we give

00:31:26.779 --> 00:31:28.880
homework? Let's just say Mary Kim's like, you

00:31:28.880 --> 00:31:30.799
know what, I'm really thinking about this. What

00:31:30.799 --> 00:31:33.230
should they? Before they call you because I think

00:31:33.230 --> 00:31:35.089
you're amazing. So I definitely want to recommend

00:31:35.089 --> 00:31:38.289
you to anyone and just get a feeling for attorney

00:31:38.289 --> 00:31:41.529
bonders personality because to me that's the

00:31:41.529 --> 00:31:43.369
first thing and I love that you start off that

00:31:43.369 --> 00:31:45.930
way getting to know someone and I'm in Florida

00:31:45.930 --> 00:31:48.029
by the way, Daytona Beach. But but my question

00:31:48.029 --> 00:31:51.109
to you is what does someone need to do before

00:31:51.109 --> 00:31:53.029
they pick up the phone and I like I have this

00:31:53.029 --> 00:31:55.029
product and blah blah blah. What would you like

00:31:55.029 --> 00:31:56.890
for them to do the homework that they need to

00:31:56.890 --> 00:32:01.230
do before they call you? OK. I tell people I

00:32:01.230 --> 00:32:03.569
understand your invention is your baby and you

00:32:03.569 --> 00:32:05.369
love your baby and you want to show your baby

00:32:05.369 --> 00:32:07.369
you want to tell everybody about don't tell anybody

00:32:07.369 --> 00:32:10.410
just keep it quiet talk to the attorney first

00:32:10.410 --> 00:32:12.690
if you want to talk about how beautiful your

00:32:12.690 --> 00:32:14.589
baby is call an attorney because he can't tell

00:32:14.589 --> 00:32:17.730
anybody and that's considered confidential uh

00:32:17.730 --> 00:32:20.269
getting a lot of issues where you know people

00:32:20.269 --> 00:32:22.250
are very excited but sometimes they don't know

00:32:22.250 --> 00:32:24.849
what they have until someone tells them hey that's

00:32:24.849 --> 00:32:26.329
a really great idea maybe you should look in

00:32:26.329 --> 00:32:29.849
the pattern Disclosure kills patents. So you

00:32:29.849 --> 00:32:32.329
need to be wary of that. And then the one thing

00:32:32.329 --> 00:32:34.269
that, you know, the advice that I always give

00:32:34.269 --> 00:32:37.410
is because people ask, how do I know if I have

00:32:37.410 --> 00:32:39.250
possibly have an invention or something I should

00:32:39.250 --> 00:32:42.809
look at? I'm like, did you solve a problem? And

00:32:42.809 --> 00:32:45.890
when you solved a problem, that's generally where

00:32:45.890 --> 00:32:48.990
invention lies, because you may have solved a

00:32:48.990 --> 00:32:51.650
problem that others have been trying to fix or

00:32:51.650 --> 00:32:53.369
didn't even know was a problem. And then you

00:32:53.369 --> 00:33:01.279
fixed it for them. You hear that a lot of times.

00:33:02.059 --> 00:33:04.359
I've had people say to me, I have an idea I want,

00:33:04.500 --> 00:33:06.539
especially in the promo business, but I'm going

00:33:06.539 --> 00:33:09.160
to send you an NDA. And I'm like, OK, send me

00:33:09.160 --> 00:33:12.339
your chat GPT NDA or legal zoom, and then I'll

00:33:12.339 --> 00:33:15.160
sign it. But I'm always like, first of all, I.

00:33:15.420 --> 00:33:18.160
not gonna share it anyways, but what would happen?

00:33:18.500 --> 00:33:21.099
I share and they tell me something and I'm talking

00:33:21.099 --> 00:33:24.700
to Mary Kim and I'm like, oh my God, that five

00:33:24.700 --> 00:33:28.359
sided toothbrush is unbelievable. And once Joe

00:33:28.359 --> 00:33:30.680
makes it, I'm gonna be buying his toothbrushes

00:33:30.680 --> 00:33:33.279
all over the place. And Mary Kim's like, five

00:33:33.279 --> 00:33:35.259
sides, why do you need that? And I say, oh my

00:33:35.259 --> 00:33:37.420
God, because it cleans the back of your throat

00:33:37.420 --> 00:33:40.160
and goes down your esophagus. And it's so amazing.

00:33:41.000 --> 00:33:44.319
So what ends up? With that, like, can I get,

00:33:44.440 --> 00:33:47.240
like, you didn't follow your NDA and you just,

00:33:47.240 --> 00:33:49.579
like, shared it. I don't even know what that

00:33:49.579 --> 00:33:51.579
means. Well, it's disclosure is disclosure. It's

00:33:51.579 --> 00:33:53.240
not like the patent office is going to say, well,

00:33:53.240 --> 00:33:55.279
you were covered on your NDA and this person

00:33:55.279 --> 00:33:58.440
disclosed it. So if they disclose it, you could

00:33:58.440 --> 00:34:00.819
be in trouble. Now, the one thing about the United

00:34:00.819 --> 00:34:02.279
States that, you know, I don't want to scare

00:34:02.279 --> 00:34:05.519
people off too much because once the United States

00:34:05.519 --> 00:34:07.779
is, I think the only country that does it, and

00:34:07.779 --> 00:34:10.739
I'm not positive, but it's, in most industrialized

00:34:10.739 --> 00:34:14.179
country, it doesn't. If there's public disclosure,

00:34:14.380 --> 00:34:16.659
you have a year to file for a patent application.

00:34:18.079 --> 00:34:20.760
But the NDA, like someone disclosed and they

00:34:20.760 --> 00:34:23.119
were covered under NDA, doesn't protect you of

00:34:23.119 --> 00:34:25.559
the patents. You could sue them. That's what

00:34:25.559 --> 00:34:28.820
you have. They broke a contract. But the effect

00:34:28.820 --> 00:34:33.199
of that is not necessarily, you know, absolved

00:34:33.199 --> 00:34:36.440
because it was covered under NDA because you

00:34:36.440 --> 00:34:38.920
as the inventor did disclose it, but you disclose

00:34:38.920 --> 00:34:43.320
it to someone who did, that's disclosure. Interesting.

00:34:43.659 --> 00:34:46.119
So really don't even offer an end because now

00:34:46.119 --> 00:34:47.599
I'm thinking about it. I probably should have

00:34:47.599 --> 00:34:51.039
said no, right? Because what if, what if I didn't

00:34:51.039 --> 00:34:52.920
disclose it, but they only, they only showed

00:34:52.920 --> 00:34:54.619
three people. Now they're going to be like, well,

00:34:54.739 --> 00:34:56.599
Adrian, it must be you because the other two

00:34:56.599 --> 00:35:00.199
said they didn't do it. Well, I mean, the, the,

00:35:00.199 --> 00:35:04.719
oh, okay. So a lot of, I always tell people if

00:35:04.719 --> 00:35:07.019
you need consulting and stuff like that, sign

00:35:07.019 --> 00:35:10.079
the, get NDA signed, get NDA signed for everyone

00:35:10.079 --> 00:35:13.079
that you want to discuss this with. Now understand

00:35:13.079 --> 00:35:16.099
you can't just go to your friend and say hey

00:35:16.099 --> 00:35:18.659
sign this NDA because if they're not giving you

00:35:18.659 --> 00:35:22.019
something in return That's not truly a contract.

00:35:22.019 --> 00:35:25.519
That's just a promise and promises are unenforceable

00:35:25.519 --> 00:35:29.539
law only contracts So if you're going to tell

00:35:29.539 --> 00:35:32.079
a friend offer them ten bucks for their opinions

00:35:32.079 --> 00:35:36.699
back and make sure the NDA makes that clear The

00:35:36.699 --> 00:35:40.389
other part is I'm sorry I was thinking um So

00:35:40.389 --> 00:35:43.030
a lot of times inventors want to go to VCs, you

00:35:43.030 --> 00:35:45.090
know venture capitalists and all stuff. They

00:35:45.090 --> 00:35:47.309
see so many things they refuse to sign an NDA

00:35:47.309 --> 00:35:51.030
and a lot of companies refuse to sign NDAs because

00:35:51.030 --> 00:35:54.630
they've gotten caught in the past because Say

00:35:54.630 --> 00:35:58.590
that the LA office signs an NDA with an inventor

00:35:58.590 --> 00:36:01.369
in LA and they're like, you know what? We really

00:36:01.369 --> 00:36:03.929
don't like your idea, but someone in the New

00:36:03.929 --> 00:36:06.010
York office is actually working on it and likes

00:36:06.010 --> 00:36:08.579
the idea Basically, the company comes out with

00:36:08.579 --> 00:36:10.860
the product. Guess what happens? Even though

00:36:10.860 --> 00:36:12.900
the people in New York never knew anything about

00:36:12.900 --> 00:36:16.539
the guy in LA, the company is held to the NDA

00:36:16.539 --> 00:36:22.239
and therefore the company gets sued. So they're

00:36:22.239 --> 00:36:23.900
just kind of like, we're not even going to deal

00:36:23.900 --> 00:36:26.639
with that anymore. Okay. That's kind of what

00:36:26.639 --> 00:36:29.059
in my mind was thinking. Like it is, it can be

00:36:29.059 --> 00:36:32.380
risky, right? And, or what if I did have a product,

00:36:32.539 --> 00:36:34.780
what if they did come to me and they don't know?

00:36:35.070 --> 00:36:37.250
that I actually just did that product, like I

00:36:37.250 --> 00:36:39.070
have it. Now they're sharing something with me

00:36:39.070 --> 00:36:41.909
that I really shouldn't know. No, I guess it

00:36:41.909 --> 00:36:44.150
doesn't exist. Well, there's generally like stipulations

00:36:44.150 --> 00:36:47.210
in the NDA. It says things that you already knew

00:36:47.210 --> 00:36:51.150
are excluded. It's their information is confidential,

00:36:51.210 --> 00:36:54.449
not yours. But you might be begging yourself

00:36:54.449 --> 00:36:58.510
or they might not believe you. I gave you my

00:36:58.510 --> 00:37:00.730
idea and you literally were working on the exact

00:37:00.730 --> 00:37:03.559
same thing. But sometimes that happens because

00:37:03.559 --> 00:37:06.019
you're dealing with people in the same industry.

00:37:07.460 --> 00:37:10.119
Right, that's what I'm wondering. Yeah, if you

00:37:10.119 --> 00:37:12.119
want consultation from somebody, they better

00:37:12.119 --> 00:37:15.780
have experience in that area. Otherwise, their

00:37:15.780 --> 00:37:18.860
advice isn't really worth anything. OK, one last

00:37:18.860 --> 00:37:21.519
question. So now I have a product. I see it.

00:37:21.739 --> 00:37:25.139
I find it. I see it. In an area, it's like almost

00:37:25.139 --> 00:37:27.280
like an open patent, like nobody really has a

00:37:27.280 --> 00:37:29.940
patent. They had one years ago. It's closed.

00:37:30.260 --> 00:37:32.840
Am I able to just grab that? Is it open or will

00:37:32.840 --> 00:37:35.360
ever become another? You know, even with some

00:37:35.360 --> 00:37:37.400
minor changes, would it become a patent again

00:37:37.400 --> 00:37:40.059
under someone else's name? Well, the changes

00:37:40.059 --> 00:37:43.760
would have to be unobvious, but if you find a

00:37:43.760 --> 00:37:46.579
patent that has expired, you should be covered

00:37:46.579 --> 00:37:49.300
for everything that's in that patent within a

00:37:49.300 --> 00:37:53.889
certain context. If it's gone the full 20. You

00:37:53.889 --> 00:37:55.670
know with the assumption that all these other

00:37:55.670 --> 00:38:00.250
ones have expired too because There is an inside

00:38:00.250 --> 00:38:02.670
pool but talk to a patent attorney, but generally

00:38:02.670 --> 00:38:04.869
if you find something that's over 20 some odd

00:38:04.869 --> 00:38:09.010
years old You should be able to do whatever was

00:38:09.010 --> 00:38:11.710
described in there now when you start adding

00:38:11.710 --> 00:38:14.210
and tinkering and changing things Then you might

00:38:14.210 --> 00:38:20.380
be running a foul of newer patents Okay So attorney

00:38:20.380 --> 00:38:22.960
bonder, I like to put rope in my teeth and then

00:38:22.960 --> 00:38:24.539
I pull the door and I shut the door. That's how

00:38:24.539 --> 00:38:26.420
I pull out my own teeth when I feel like playing

00:38:26.420 --> 00:38:28.219
dentist sometimes. I mean, I don't need to go

00:38:28.219 --> 00:38:30.780
to dentist. I mean, can you just share with people

00:38:30.780 --> 00:38:32.480
how like, you know, cause I'm thinking to myself,

00:38:32.840 --> 00:38:34.420
I don't need a patent attorney. I'll just use

00:38:34.420 --> 00:38:37.659
chat GPT. It'll help me. It'll file my note,

00:38:37.659 --> 00:38:41.320
but seriously explain to people why DIY probably

00:38:41.320 --> 00:38:43.320
is not their smartest choice. Like don't try

00:38:43.320 --> 00:38:47.530
to pull teeth and be a dentist. I'm not I mean

00:38:47.530 --> 00:38:50.869
that's an interesting question because I have

00:38:50.869 --> 00:38:53.210
had clients come up to me as like hey I had chat

00:38:53.210 --> 00:38:56.050
GPT write this application for me would you review

00:38:56.050 --> 00:38:59.489
it and then submit it and I'm like One if I go

00:38:59.489 --> 00:39:01.349
through it generally the amount of time that

00:39:01.349 --> 00:39:04.230
it takes for me to fix it or put it in the form

00:39:04.230 --> 00:39:08.150
that I Find to be proper Takes more time than

00:39:08.150 --> 00:39:13.320
if I just wrote it myself to They say that when

00:39:13.320 --> 00:39:16.880
you put stuff in the chat GPT, it's not disclosing

00:39:16.880 --> 00:39:20.639
it to chat GPT, but I don't know. I personally

00:39:20.639 --> 00:39:23.219
feel like you are disclosing it. And that's the

00:39:23.219 --> 00:39:25.900
problem. You're disclosing things to the largest

00:39:25.900 --> 00:39:28.920
knowledge base out there. And until a court comes

00:39:28.920 --> 00:39:31.400
out and says, this is not disclosure, I'm not

00:39:31.400 --> 00:39:35.179
doing it. I, that's a great answer. That is a

00:39:35.179 --> 00:39:37.579
great answer. Be very careful what you put in

00:39:37.579 --> 00:39:40.400
to whatever you're using. If it's open AI, right?

00:39:40.400 --> 00:39:43.019
Because it can steal that idea that I have read

00:39:43.019 --> 00:39:45.880
that. Well, that it's LL. I mean, it's learning

00:39:45.880 --> 00:39:48.860
language models, right? They learn. So when you're

00:39:48.860 --> 00:39:50.539
putting stuff in there, they're learning from

00:39:50.539 --> 00:39:53.059
what you're saying. Once you put that information

00:39:53.059 --> 00:39:56.199
in there now, I'm no expert on it. Maybe maybe

00:39:56.199 --> 00:39:57.980
it's closed off. Maybe it's not. But for me,

00:39:57.980 --> 00:40:01.480
I'm not willing to take that chance. So. And

00:40:01.480 --> 00:40:04.360
I think you can pay to have it closed off and

00:40:04.360 --> 00:40:07.460
this kind of stuff. But most people, yeah. But

00:40:07.460 --> 00:40:09.920
I don't know. I don't trust it. I'm not going

00:40:09.920 --> 00:40:13.159
to do it. I mean, like for the last 400 days,

00:40:13.320 --> 00:40:15.139
I put in, Adrian Barker is absolutely wonderful.

00:40:15.300 --> 00:40:18.599
Adrian Barker does this. And then hopefully,

00:40:18.739 --> 00:40:20.619
Mary Kim goes in and says, tell me about Adrian

00:40:20.619 --> 00:40:22.320
Barker. They're going to say, Mary Kim, here's

00:40:22.320 --> 00:40:24.139
everything you need to know. Mary Kim, before

00:40:24.139 --> 00:40:31.000
we close out, do you have a question? I don't

00:40:31.000 --> 00:40:33.400
have a question. Sorry, it's so loud. Just get

00:40:33.400 --> 00:40:38.659
home. No, I love the advice with the chat GPT

00:40:38.659 --> 00:40:42.699
because yeah, the what if aspect, right? If someone

00:40:42.699 --> 00:40:45.139
says, hey, I'm looking for a patent for something

00:40:45.139 --> 00:40:49.360
that's similar to yours, they may just pull up

00:40:49.360 --> 00:40:53.150
that patent information. So that's. Yeah, that's

00:40:53.150 --> 00:40:56.210
like oh that what if right not worth the chance

00:40:56.210 --> 00:40:58.610
to take that on that so I love that and then

00:40:58.610 --> 00:41:02.550
also about With the different companies. Let's

00:41:02.550 --> 00:41:04.449
say if one in New York one in Jersey, right?

00:41:04.489 --> 00:41:07.750
It's just like yes All those things. So I'm so

00:41:07.750 --> 00:41:10.159
glad I popped in here Sorry for the background

00:41:10.159 --> 00:41:13.099
noise. You're so sweet Mary Kim. I love Mary

00:41:13.099 --> 00:41:15.519
Kim Maud's rooms and she's such a good moderator.

00:41:15.619 --> 00:41:17.500
You can hear it in her voice always listening

00:41:17.500 --> 00:41:20.659
and reflecting back. I love that about you Mary

00:41:20.659 --> 00:41:24.099
Kim. This is so chatter social and Kim's right

00:41:24.099 --> 00:41:28.820
there and you and I are right there. We're all

00:41:28.820 --> 00:41:32.380
on it because we believe in the founder, Nelson

00:41:32.380 --> 00:41:36.119
Apega, who we love, who created this app where

00:41:36.119 --> 00:41:37.980
you could go on, you could teach, we could have

00:41:37.980 --> 00:41:41.099
rooms like this. And we built a relationship.

00:41:41.199 --> 00:41:45.280
So I met Mary Kim back in February. So it's not

00:41:45.280 --> 00:41:47.840
just like regular social media. It's real because

00:41:47.840 --> 00:41:50.460
you can hear the voice, you can see people, and

00:41:50.460 --> 00:41:52.699
we love that. There's all kinds of rooms. But

00:41:52.699 --> 00:41:56.000
I'm excited to have you. I have a... I'm working

00:41:56.000 --> 00:41:58.300
on my next book. So this is Unscripted Brilliant,

00:41:58.340 --> 00:42:02.860
16 of my guests in a book. I don't know if you

00:42:02.860 --> 00:42:05.760
are in any books or not as a contributing author,

00:42:05.780 --> 00:42:08.199
because I know you have done some great podcast

00:42:08.199 --> 00:42:10.619
interviews. And I'm so glad you said yes to me.

00:42:10.659 --> 00:42:14.059
So thank you so much. Is there anything that

00:42:14.059 --> 00:42:17.320
you wish I asked that I did not ask? No, I think

00:42:17.320 --> 00:42:20.139
we pretty much covered it. I guess the only thing

00:42:20.139 --> 00:42:23.239
for people is look. If you think you have an

00:42:23.239 --> 00:42:25.360
invention, you're interested in it, contact an

00:42:25.360 --> 00:42:28.519
attorney. Generally, it's free advice. You get

00:42:28.519 --> 00:42:35.900
to hear the typical spiel. Maybe it's something

00:42:35.900 --> 00:42:39.659
you want to move forward with. Everyone I have

00:42:39.659 --> 00:42:42.539
right now, love it, love it. Love the website.

00:42:42.900 --> 00:42:46.039
Beautiful. Oh, he's so cute. My gosh. I love

00:42:46.039 --> 00:42:48.820
this. So you've got your partnership. So you

00:42:48.820 --> 00:42:52.239
can work with attorney bondurer from any location.

00:42:52.420 --> 00:42:56.699
Here he is. Oh, this is amazing right here. Wow.

00:42:57.239 --> 00:43:00.260
Wow, wow, wow. So globally, so here you have

00:43:00.260 --> 00:43:03.380
the chat. I don't review things beforehand. Oh,

00:43:03.780 --> 00:43:06.179
this is interesting. You guys go to his website.

00:43:06.280 --> 00:43:07.860
Look at it right here. So you've got all the

00:43:07.860 --> 00:43:11.780
information. You are over in Tampa. We'll have

00:43:11.780 --> 00:43:14.840
to let Mary Lynn know she's with the Tarpon Springs

00:43:14.840 --> 00:43:17.739
Chamber of Commerce. Really, really cool what

00:43:17.739 --> 00:43:20.820
you do here. and your patent insights. There's

00:43:20.820 --> 00:43:23.320
videos here that you guys can watch. So check

00:43:23.320 --> 00:43:25.780
this out. So you want to go to the website. And

00:43:25.780 --> 00:43:27.519
I'll be in my notes. I'll be in the show notes.

00:43:27.559 --> 00:43:30.260
And right now for the live, it's in the information.

00:43:30.780 --> 00:43:34.139
Wow. And you don't have enough socials. This

00:43:34.139 --> 00:43:36.239
is fantastic. I love the phone number. I love

00:43:36.239 --> 00:43:39.139
how this is great. This is a nice looking website.

00:43:39.360 --> 00:43:44.659
Kudos. Oh, don't fall for the, ooh. Oh, I have

00:43:44.659 --> 00:43:46.659
a YouTube channel and stuff like that. You can

00:43:46.659 --> 00:43:49.519
go through and learn a bunch of things. I probably

00:43:49.519 --> 00:43:53.800
have 90 videos at least or something like that.

00:43:53.860 --> 00:43:56.800
Oh, look at this. Oh, OK. I just want to subscribe

00:43:56.800 --> 00:44:00.000
before I go out. Oh, awesome. Oh, I love. Oh,

00:44:00.000 --> 00:44:03.500
this is cool. This is a whole really cool information.

00:44:04.019 --> 00:44:06.599
Thank you so much for your time. I really, really

00:44:06.599 --> 00:44:08.619
appreciate it. This has been fun. I'm going to

00:44:08.619 --> 00:44:11.800
get this produced quickly. And I really appreciate

00:44:11.800 --> 00:44:14.480
your being here. So thank you so much. Well,

00:44:14.480 --> 00:44:16.400
thank you for having me. I've had a great time.

00:44:17.380 --> 00:44:19.199
Oh, thank you. Thank you. Thank you, Mary Kim.

00:44:19.320 --> 00:44:21.719
I'm going to close that out. Thank you. Thank

00:44:21.719 --> 00:44:23.820
you. And nice meeting you. Nice meeting you,

00:44:23.820 --> 00:44:27.920
Mary Kim. Thank you. So sweet. All right. Well,

00:44:28.000 --> 00:44:29.880
that's it. We're ending this stream. This has

00:44:29.880 --> 00:44:31.739
been great. Wow. What a great conversation. I

00:44:31.739 --> 00:44:33.599
really have to digest a lot of it. I'm going

00:44:33.599 --> 00:44:36.440
to go be your stalker now. I have like 15 of

00:44:36.440 --> 00:44:38.900
your socials to connect with. So I will have

00:44:38.900 --> 00:44:41.820
that done by the end of the month. All right.

00:44:42.139 --> 00:44:43.260
But I love it. I love.