Exit on Your Terms: CEPA Coach Len Bruskowitz on Valuation, SOPs & a 3-5 Year Exit Plan

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You're one of the few. I'm one of the few. Len

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Breskowitz. Len said, wait, before we start,

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you should learn how to say my name. I'm like,

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well, let me try. And I got it right. So OK.

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So I switch things up a little bit. I still never

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know who's coming on. But right before I find

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the website, because we're going to go through

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your website, Len, just for a little fun, because

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I really love doing that. And I put the bio so

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everyone knows who he is. But I don't know who

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he is. I just know that his name is Len Breskowitz.

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And I know he's brave. He's bold. Brilliant.

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Good looking. And if I could just say Len, excuse

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me for one second, my bags. Everyone, just take

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a second. They look finally decent. Look awesome.

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Yeah. So introduce yourself, Mr. Breskowitz.

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So first off, it's great to be here. I appreciate

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the invite. So I'm Len Bruskowitz. I'm a business

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coach and a certified exit planning advisor,

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which means that I focus my attention on helping

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business owners get themselves really importantly

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and their companies ready to transition out of

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on their terms and on their timeline. And I live

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just outside of Boston, Massachusetts. Boston.

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So you probably recognize the name Cindy Stumpo?

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No, it doesn't, doesn't don't any business developer.

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Amazing. What female woman, business developer

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Stumpo. Um, amazing. But anyways, I am a Connecticut

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girl. Okay, great. Born and raised. Do you ever

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get to Connecticut? I do, you know, and I'm gonna,

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I'm gonna pull up an old joke here. It's usually

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I drive through it on the way to someplace else,

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but I have been to Connecticut quite a few times.

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Okay next time you're in Connecticut get off

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the highway on route 10 in Cheshire where it

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says toy museum and visit the toy museum that

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my parents left as their legacy to the state

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of Connecticut and to me the world 80 ,000 curated

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toys so we'll bring you back to your childhood.

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Awesome awesome I have to tell you I went to

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the sock monkey museum which is just outside

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of Chicago very exciting. I don't know how many

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thousands of sock monkeys they have, but they're

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very strict rules on what a sock monkey is and

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isn't. I want a sock monkey. All right, let's

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talk about business coaching. So first of all,

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who are you? How do you even know? Do we know

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anything about business, Len? Do you? Share with

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us what you know. I do. So I'll start really

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early on. I grew up in a family business. I'm

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a third generation. in that business, when I

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say I grew up in it, I lived above it. So I understand

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how running a small business is a 24 hour a day

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job. And so I worked in the business as a kid

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all the way through up until I left for college.

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And then I started, I went into corporate career.

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I decided not to take over the family business.

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Had a really long corporate career. What's interesting

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about it is that, with very few exceptions, my

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entire corporate career was working for companies

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who served small businesses as their customers.

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And so I interacted with kind of tens of thousands

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of small business owners over my long career.

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And I worked at some really recognizable names.

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I was that into it. with QuickBooks and TurboTax.

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I was at Constant Contact, the email marketing

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provider, Grasshopper, a virtual phone service,

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a website startup for restaurants. So you might

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guess that my passion is around small businesses.

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And so when I just got a little bit tired of

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the corporate life and decided I'm gonna go off

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and do something on my own, but I'm sure it's

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gonna be helping small businesses. And what I

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really enjoy is coaching. And so coaching small

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businesses is where I came into. And I started

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off just being kind of a general coach. I can

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help you with a lot of the same things you do,

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growth strategy and things like that. But I'll

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tell you a story. So one of my early clients

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was a 72 -year -old woman who started a very

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successful retail business with her husband over

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50 years ago. And they ran it together. for over

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50 years. Unfortunately, he died. And when he

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died, she was involved in the business, so she

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knew what was going on, but not all of it. There

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were pieces he did, she did, and all those kinds

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of things. So when I was introduced to her, she

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said, Len, I can't sleep at night because I don't

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know what's going to happen to my business, which

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had a pretty profound impact on me. And so I

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said, OK. let's figure out what your options

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are. And so we talked through the options. You

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could sell it to a third party. You could pass

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it along to a family member. You could sell it

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to management. Or you could maybe just shut it

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down. Maybe you're just done. And so we talked

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through the pros and cons of each of those options.

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And she ultimately decided to pass it along to

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a family member, her daughter -in -law, who actually

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works in the business. And we implemented that

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plan. got things going in the right direction.

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And she called me later on and said, Len, I could

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sleep at night now. And immediately after hanging

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up the phone, I said, I think I found my why,

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right? I mean, this was really compelling to

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me. And because I'm a really analytical kind

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of guy, I didn't just go with what my heart said.

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I went and did a little research. And I found

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that over 50 % of the small businesses in the

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US, with 1 to 20 employees, about 6 million of

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those, Over 50 % of them are owned by people

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55 and up. So there's a big need for what I do,

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which is exit planning. And it's really just

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about getting that business ready so that the

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business owner can move on and preserve their

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legacy if that's what they want. So does that

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help? Yeah, it does. It does. Thank you so much.

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Interesting. So what is the benefit of just dumping

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the business? There really aren't many. But sometimes

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people are, well, I'll tell you a couple of examples.

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So a guy who does some masonry work for me. He's

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about my age. He used to have a team of people.

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And over time, he's just said, you know what,

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I don't want the hassle. So it's down to him,

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a truck, and some tools. And for him, I said,

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look, you don't really need an exit plan. When

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you're done, you just stop. So maybe you could,

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you know, pass along your customer list to somebody,

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but to be honest with you, it's, you know, so

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that's one example where you might just say,

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I just want to shut it down. I see that as the

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option of last resort, because when a small business

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shuts down, it doesn't just impact the owner,

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it impacts their family, their employees, their

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customers, their vendors and their community.

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You know, think about the small businesses in

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Cheshire, right? I mean, if one of those shuts

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down, the community feels it. So it's not my

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right to tell people what to do. But I always

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try and say, look, if there's a way to preserve

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your legacy, that's clearly, you know, a good

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outcome. I love it. Before I forget, what business

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did you live under? What did your parents have?

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Okay, I guess I think I think I can't help but

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think if you lived above, it's either a restaurant

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or convenience store. Nope, a funeral home. Oh,

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no. Did you have to be quiet when you were upstairs?

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Kids, the funeral is downstairs. Stop trampling

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and jumping. It was a pretty big building, so

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we didn't have to be that quiet. It's not a traditional

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New England funeral home that looks like an old

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house. This was a purpose -built funeral home.

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But I did all the jobs. I drove the hearse. I

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went and picked up flowers. did all those kind

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of tasks necessary to keep it running. But the

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reason I say it was 24 hours is if somebody called

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at three in the morning, my mother answered the

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phone, right? So it was all the time business.

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Well, I totally understand that because obviously

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I watched 10 seasons of Six Feet Under. That

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was the best TV show. We haven't watched Six

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Feet Under do it. It gives you really a good

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example of the crazy families and running a funeral.

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What I heard is that the early seasons were very,

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very accurate. And then as the seasons went on,

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it kind of veered from reality. Oh, no, they

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had to talk about eggs. It's fantastic. I just,

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for my friends out there, we could keep this

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quiet. Any sightings, any spirits come, turn

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around and say like, am I really, is that me

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in the coffin? Anything? None, none. My mother's

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famous quote was, I'm more afraid of the people

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that are still alive than the ones that are dead.

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Oh my God, I love that. I love that. Oh, yeah,

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I grew up in a family business, too. So I know

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when you say that, like it's in your blood, it's

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not just like what you did. It's everything that

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surrounds the whole business. I did score for

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eight years just to kind of get my feet wet in

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the mentoring. But I love what you do. OK, so

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then the next big question is why focal point?

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What was that decision to? And then I have another

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question after that one. Let me just say it out

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loud. So I want to talk about like someone like

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myself that owns a business, but I'm just one

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person with one brain. But first, why FocalPoint?

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Yeah, so FocalPoint is a coaching franchise,

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but there are about 250 of us worldwide. And

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it's based on the teaching of Brian Tracy who's

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pretty well known in the business development

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sales world, right? So a lot of the content is

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based on his teachings. The reason I chose to

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join FocalPoint was one, the content, right?

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It's great to have already written content rather

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than having to do it yourself. But to me, the

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real value in joining this franchise was the

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other 250 coaches. So it's an incredibly supportive

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organization. And when I pose a question to the

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group and I say, has anybody dealt with this

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kind of business, inevitably somebody has and

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they say, here's what I did. So it's... unbelievably

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supportive in terms of getting questions answered,

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and just, you know, sharing of idea sharing of

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content. So those were the big reasons. Like

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a mastermind within itself that that is absolutely.

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Wow, you really kind of open the door and answer

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because I was always like what you know what

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would make you go to whatever that looked like

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focal point for you. All right, so What am I

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going to do? What am I going to do? All right,

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so I have professional global etiquette, right?

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And go get yourself a podcast so you get free

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help, everyone. Just get me the podcast, and

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there you go. This is what you do. You get free

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therapy. You can do whatever you want. OK, so

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it's just me doing a variety of different things

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under my professional global etiquette. So how

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can I I can't give that to anyone because I mean

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I could ask them to cut my head off and take

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my brain out and put it unto someone else's but

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like literally What can I do in my business?

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I don't I don't want to call it a hobby business,

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but I guess our lifestyle business Maybe but

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what's in it for me? yeah, so just because it's

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only you doesn't mean there's not a Business

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that can live on and I'll tell you this is the

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same advice I would give if you were running

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a company with 25 employees, okay? So the biggest

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piece that I work with, the biggest challenge

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I have that business owners face when they're

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getting ready to transition is that they don't

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have any independence from their business. What

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I mean is everything's up here, right? All the

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decision making, all the processes is in the

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owner's head. And so the advice I give is start

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to get separation from your business. And a good

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way to do that is to document the things you

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do. No, it's not physical. It's not physical

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separation. It's mental separation, right? So

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document the things that you do. One. Two, focus

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your attention on the things that you're really,

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really good at. And figure out if there's a way

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to teach somebody else how to do those things.

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And then what you can do is you can start to

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separate yourself out and get it to a point where

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you probably aren't going to franchise your business.

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But you could absolutely have a set of content

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that somebody would be interested in taking over,

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a set of clients maybe that somebody would be

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interested in taking over. But you have to get

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it out of your head and into a different format

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because anybody that wants to buy your business

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doesn't want to buy you, right? They want to

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buy a turnkey thing that they can go and run.

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And again, this is whether you're a one person

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or a 25 person business. So those are my words

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of advice. That's interesting. So let me ask

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this question. Does it matter if I build a great

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website? My website's 10 years old. It's got

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a ton of blogs and content on it. Is that? Worth

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anything, the business name, professional global

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etiquette? So I look at about 40 different factors

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that either add or subtract from value of the

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business when you try to sell it or pass it along.

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It doesn't really matter the option. I look at

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about 40 different things. Website, branding,

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content, all those are important components,

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right? The key to it is It depends on your industry

00:14:15.980 --> 00:14:17.840
as to whether it matters, whether it's cutting

00:14:17.840 --> 00:14:21.600
edge or not. If you're selling industrial piping,

00:14:22.139 --> 00:14:23.899
your website probably doesn't matter as much

00:14:23.899 --> 00:14:27.159
as if you're doing website design work where

00:14:27.159 --> 00:14:29.940
it really should be a showcase. So the business

00:14:29.940 --> 00:14:35.340
depends. But what's really crucial to it is that

00:14:35.340 --> 00:14:40.289
as you start to prepare for this, it's not just

00:14:40.289 --> 00:14:44.730
you. You're bringing in expertise or you're at

00:14:44.730 --> 00:14:48.389
least showing that this is something that somebody

00:14:48.389 --> 00:14:51.909
else could take over. If everything's just about

00:14:51.909 --> 00:14:55.669
you, that makes it tougher. What you're doing

00:14:55.669 --> 00:14:58.210
right now with me is a great example. Somebody

00:14:58.210 --> 00:15:01.450
else could host this podcast with the same name

00:15:01.450 --> 00:15:05.509
or whatever. This feels like something that has

00:15:05.509 --> 00:15:10.090
legs beyond you personally running. Wow. Hey

00:15:10.090 --> 00:15:12.809
everyone, I'm looking for a co -host or maybe

00:15:12.809 --> 00:15:15.909
you'd like to be a guest host. I'm professional

00:15:15.909 --> 00:15:18.090
global etiquette. So we got like five people

00:15:18.090 --> 00:15:21.710
watching per episode. So join me. All right.

00:15:21.710 --> 00:15:24.789
So let's have a little fun. Who wants to have

00:15:24.789 --> 00:15:29.710
fun? I'm going to go and check out your website

00:15:29.710 --> 00:15:33.110
and I'm going to do yours. So I think it's this

00:15:33.110 --> 00:15:36.669
one. Let me know. Am I on the right one? yes

00:15:36.669 --> 00:15:39.570
greater heights oh shoot no because you're this

00:15:39.570 --> 00:15:42.730
one see how it doesn't come up it doesn't come

00:15:42.730 --> 00:15:46.669
up for me shoot shoot shoot okay that's okay

00:15:46.669 --> 00:15:51.289
because let me stop my screen hold on everyone

00:15:51.289 --> 00:15:56.870
stop sharing go here i think i can share the

00:15:56.870 --> 00:16:05.279
window and you are um another Darn, darn, darny,

00:16:05.360 --> 00:16:07.779
darn, darn. I'll make sure I have you over here.

00:16:07.799 --> 00:16:09.940
Hold on. Hold on, everyone. OK, yeah, because

00:16:09.940 --> 00:16:15.539
this is a nice looking site. OK, hold on. I want

00:16:15.539 --> 00:16:21.639
to just show off your site. Window. The perils

00:16:21.639 --> 00:16:25.120
of live demos, right? Yeah, because you know

00:16:25.120 --> 00:16:27.759
what? Because it's on a different program than

00:16:27.759 --> 00:16:31.100
I am. So I'm on Chrome, and that's the problem.

00:16:32.539 --> 00:16:35.860
shoot let me try it again why is your site not

00:16:35.860 --> 00:16:39.799
coming up um i need a i need someone to help

00:16:39.799 --> 00:16:41.820
me with this one it's weird i guess i don't have

00:16:41.820 --> 00:16:44.279
my files or whatever i'm not i'm not cash but

00:16:44.279 --> 00:16:49.519
okay so we can't do that but i do i'm gonna peek

00:16:49.519 --> 00:16:51.840
at your site because i want to ask you some questions

00:16:51.840 --> 00:16:55.139
so I'm going to have a little fun and you guys

00:16:55.139 --> 00:16:57.000
aren't. And that's just the way it is. All right.

00:16:57.059 --> 00:16:59.799
So I love your bio. Tell us, talk to us about

00:16:59.799 --> 00:17:02.940
the business valuation calculator. How does that

00:17:02.940 --> 00:17:06.380
really work? Like what is that? The business

00:17:06.380 --> 00:17:09.079
assessment? Yeah, I think it's the coolest part

00:17:09.079 --> 00:17:11.740
of my site, to be honest with you. So it's a

00:17:11.740 --> 00:17:16.380
free tool that I offer. It takes about 15 minutes

00:17:16.380 --> 00:17:19.920
to go through. And what it looks for is your

00:17:19.920 --> 00:17:24.190
revenue and net income for the past year, and

00:17:24.190 --> 00:17:26.390
then you pick what your industry is, and then

00:17:26.390 --> 00:17:31.609
you answer about 15 questions. It's about, where

00:17:31.609 --> 00:17:34.490
is your standing in the market? Are you a leader,

00:17:34.549 --> 00:17:37.630
a follower? How do you compare yourself? And

00:17:37.630 --> 00:17:40.849
once you answer those dozen or so questions,

00:17:41.730 --> 00:17:46.710
the tool will actually generate an estimated

00:17:46.710 --> 00:17:50.450
valuation of your business. It'll tell you this

00:17:50.450 --> 00:17:53.460
is how much it's worth today. Then it'll also

00:17:53.460 --> 00:17:56.099
give you some ideas about where it's lacking

00:17:56.099 --> 00:18:00.420
and where you're above the curve. It'll give

00:18:00.420 --> 00:18:04.700
you ideas of the areas that you can work on and

00:18:04.700 --> 00:18:06.940
actually takes a guess as to how much those would

00:18:06.940 --> 00:18:10.299
be worth in terms of the value of your company.

00:18:10.460 --> 00:18:14.220
It's a really cool little tool. Like I said,

00:18:14.319 --> 00:18:17.079
it takes 15 minutes, doesn't cost anything, and

00:18:17.079 --> 00:18:20.640
gives you a nice little idea about the things

00:18:20.640 --> 00:18:22.819
you should be focused on if you want to increase

00:18:22.819 --> 00:18:25.660
the value of your company and make it more ready

00:18:25.660 --> 00:18:29.759
to sell. Interesting. Did you create this pre

00:18:29.759 --> 00:18:33.900
-AI or after AI? It's a tool I licensed, so I

00:18:33.900 --> 00:18:37.339
didn't create it myself. There's not a lot of

00:18:37.339 --> 00:18:42.220
AI in it. It's pretty much you answer this, you

00:18:42.220 --> 00:18:45.519
get that, but it does base it on industry and

00:18:45.519 --> 00:18:48.720
then on your real numbers. Yeah, that's great.

00:18:48.759 --> 00:18:50.799
I'm going to try that, too. Everyone go on and

00:18:50.799 --> 00:18:52.819
try it, too. And then let me just let me peek

00:18:52.819 --> 00:18:58.779
again. I'm sorry you can't see it. I like it.

00:18:58.920 --> 00:19:01.519
I like the picture of you. I like the shirt.

00:19:01.779 --> 00:19:05.119
Seen on CNN, ABC, PBS, The Wall Street Journal.

00:19:06.039 --> 00:19:08.420
I like this. All right. So I'm going to get off

00:19:08.420 --> 00:19:11.039
of it right now. I'm having too much fun. Let's

00:19:11.039 --> 00:19:14.690
talk about actually. the value of getting a business

00:19:14.690 --> 00:19:18.089
coach because a lot of people are like, I don't,

00:19:18.170 --> 00:19:20.609
why do I need a business coach? I could, I could

00:19:20.609 --> 00:19:22.490
coach someone. I don't like, what are you going

00:19:22.490 --> 00:19:26.029
to do for me? And I think first of all, a business

00:19:26.029 --> 00:19:29.390
coach is an accountability partner, which I think

00:19:29.390 --> 00:19:32.230
a lot of business owners do not have, and that's

00:19:32.230 --> 00:19:34.690
worth its weight in gold. But what else? What

00:19:34.690 --> 00:19:38.309
else? So I talk to you, and I'm like, I, professional

00:19:38.309 --> 00:19:40.430
global etiquette, business is good. I'm enjoying

00:19:40.430 --> 00:19:43.089
what I do. I love every minute of what I do.

00:19:43.609 --> 00:19:48.089
But it's just me. How can I scale? Yeah. I mean,

00:19:48.289 --> 00:19:52.609
that's part of the reason you hire a business

00:19:52.609 --> 00:19:56.869
coach is we can help you scale. Let me go back

00:19:56.869 --> 00:20:01.130
to it. Accountability, I see as important, but

00:20:01.130 --> 00:20:06.589
not the big driver because most business owners

00:20:06.589 --> 00:20:12.029
are driven. When they decide they want to do

00:20:12.029 --> 00:20:15.349
something, they don't need anybody to hold them

00:20:15.349 --> 00:20:20.890
accountable. What I see as a huge value in hiring

00:20:20.890 --> 00:20:24.569
a business coach is having a sounding board.

00:20:25.369 --> 00:20:28.210
Running the business is really lonely, right?

00:20:28.890 --> 00:20:31.549
It's lonely if you only have one person, but

00:20:31.549 --> 00:20:34.390
it can be lonely even if you have 25 because

00:20:34.390 --> 00:20:37.809
when you're the boss, there are things that you

00:20:37.809 --> 00:20:40.990
can't necessarily share with your employees.

00:20:41.509 --> 00:20:44.069
A lot of times you can't get feedback, you know,

00:20:44.109 --> 00:20:46.450
honest feedback from them. So a business coach

00:20:46.450 --> 00:20:49.609
serves that purpose, right? Business coach serves

00:20:49.609 --> 00:20:53.569
that idea of somebody to bounce ideas off of

00:20:53.569 --> 00:20:56.710
that sounding board. The other piece is that

00:20:56.710 --> 00:20:59.430
what a business coach really helps an owner do

00:20:59.430 --> 00:21:06.029
is get above, take a higher view of their business,

00:21:06.190 --> 00:21:09.569
right? So we talk about, there's a concept called

00:21:09.569 --> 00:21:13.950
the three I's of the entrepreneur. And the highest

00:21:13.950 --> 00:21:16.710
level is kind of the strategic I, and that's

00:21:16.710 --> 00:21:19.329
forward -looking. They're thinking about strategy.

00:21:19.490 --> 00:21:22.049
They're thinking about the future. right? And

00:21:22.049 --> 00:21:24.369
that's where you want to be spending your time,

00:21:24.430 --> 00:21:27.130
like that's the most productive. The next is

00:21:27.130 --> 00:21:30.049
kind of the managerial eye, and that's, you know,

00:21:30.150 --> 00:21:32.470
kind of backward looking, you know, hey, how

00:21:32.470 --> 00:21:35.890
are the metrics looking, you know, scorekeeping,

00:21:36.089 --> 00:21:38.509
those types of things. And it's valuable, need

00:21:38.509 --> 00:21:41.029
it, you have to spend some time doing that. And

00:21:41.029 --> 00:21:43.390
then the lowest level, or the third eye is called

00:21:43.390 --> 00:21:46.009
the eye of the technician. And this is you are

00:21:46.009 --> 00:21:49.890
in the weeds doing the thing. And look, if you're

00:21:49.890 --> 00:21:52.490
a dentist, you have to work on teeth. There's

00:21:52.490 --> 00:21:54.730
no doubt about that. But if you're running a

00:21:54.730 --> 00:21:57.650
different kind of company where you are not the

00:21:57.650 --> 00:22:00.190
product, then you want to be spending as little

00:22:00.190 --> 00:22:02.789
time as possible on that. And I'll give a little

00:22:02.789 --> 00:22:06.269
bit of an example. If you think about a McDonald's,

00:22:06.269 --> 00:22:09.230
for example, the person working on the fryer

00:22:09.230 --> 00:22:14.549
is making $12 an hour. The manager of that store

00:22:14.549 --> 00:22:18.849
is probably making $40 an hour, maybe. The owner

00:22:18.849 --> 00:22:22.910
of that store should be making $300, $400, $500

00:22:22.910 --> 00:22:28.130
an hour. The moral of the story is you want to

00:22:28.130 --> 00:22:32.349
be working on where you add the most value, not

00:22:32.349 --> 00:22:36.289
the least. You want to get out of that technician

00:22:36.289 --> 00:22:40.670
space and pay somebody else to do that. Because

00:22:40.670 --> 00:22:45.109
if you can earn $300 an hour, anything less than

00:22:45.109 --> 00:22:46.750
that, you should be paying somebody else to do

00:22:46.750 --> 00:22:52.190
that work. But I do see that businesses don't

00:22:52.190 --> 00:22:54.509
think that way. They just want to have someone

00:22:54.509 --> 00:22:57.390
so they'll take someone that's higher up doing

00:22:57.390 --> 00:23:00.289
something that the receptionist could do. If

00:23:00.289 --> 00:23:04.470
you have a receptionist. Exactly. I recall that

00:23:04.470 --> 00:23:06.710
happening a lot. I just want to take a second

00:23:06.710 --> 00:23:11.569
to talk to my my friends out there. Listen, nobody

00:23:11.569 --> 00:23:13.440
wants to hear about your business. They may say

00:23:13.440 --> 00:23:16.039
their friend, tell about one so maybe nice enough

00:23:16.039 --> 00:23:18.700
to say as well. If you start getting asking advice

00:23:18.700 --> 00:23:21.059
of your friends, especially those that don't

00:23:21.059 --> 00:23:22.859
even have a business. If you have friends have

00:23:22.859 --> 00:23:25.059
a business that makes sense or you create your

00:23:25.059 --> 00:23:27.720
own mastermind. But no, I wouldn't like it if

00:23:27.720 --> 00:23:29.339
someone called in every day talk to me about

00:23:29.339 --> 00:23:31.140
their business and was like picking my brain

00:23:31.140 --> 00:23:34.759
and asking my advice. No, no, thank you. So don't

00:23:34.759 --> 00:23:37.619
do it. Get a coach because we really there's

00:23:37.619 --> 00:23:39.259
so much value, right? When I always feel bad

00:23:39.259 --> 00:23:41.480
when someone like, you know, just don't ask,

00:23:41.480 --> 00:23:43.700
can I pick your brain? Say, I'd like to speak

00:23:43.700 --> 00:23:45.680
to you, but I want to pay you for your services.

00:23:46.079 --> 00:23:49.200
And then reach out to Len. Okay, but I got off

00:23:49.200 --> 00:23:51.380
the soapbox there, but I just like I had to just

00:23:51.380 --> 00:23:53.799
stand on it for a second. Because you're 100

00:23:53.799 --> 00:23:56.299
% right. I hear that all the time. And then people

00:23:56.299 --> 00:23:59.420
when I was a score, like, I was thinking about

00:23:59.420 --> 00:24:01.980
starting this business. But then my friend told

00:24:01.980 --> 00:24:05.059
me, blah, blah, blah. And I'm like, Oh, your

00:24:05.059 --> 00:24:07.339
friend had the business like, you know, like,

00:24:07.529 --> 00:24:10.029
people will dash your dreams before they even

00:24:10.029 --> 00:24:12.789
have the ability to understand it. So you can't

00:24:12.789 --> 00:24:14.349
have a business unless you have your vision,

00:24:14.349 --> 00:24:17.750
right? So, and when a teaching business was score,

00:24:17.910 --> 00:24:20.150
what's the first thing we teach? What's your

00:24:20.150 --> 00:24:22.670
vision? What's your mission? What's your exit

00:24:22.670 --> 00:24:26.150
plan? So you really can't start a business without

00:24:26.150 --> 00:24:30.450
knowing what your exit plan will be, right? I

00:24:30.450 --> 00:24:32.970
completely agree. Start with the end in mind.

00:24:34.230 --> 00:24:37.190
It's funny because I typically am working with

00:24:37.190 --> 00:24:39.630
older business owners who are getting closer,

00:24:40.369 --> 00:24:44.730
but the things I teach are just as valuable to

00:24:44.730 --> 00:24:46.730
a 22 -year -old starting their first business.

00:24:46.970 --> 00:24:49.190
Because if you think about it, when you start

00:24:49.190 --> 00:24:51.609
a business, you want to say, where do I want

00:24:51.609 --> 00:24:55.069
this thing to end up? If you can decide what

00:24:55.069 --> 00:24:58.720
that is and figure that out, it's pretty easy

00:24:58.720 --> 00:25:00.759
to work your way back and say what are the steps

00:25:00.759 --> 00:25:03.380
I need to do to get there and I think that's

00:25:03.380 --> 00:25:09.299
a you know it's not a condemnation at all of

00:25:09.299 --> 00:25:12.180
the younger generation but they think on much

00:25:12.180 --> 00:25:15.539
shorter terms than my generation does right did

00:25:15.539 --> 00:25:18.640
you know my generation started businesses said

00:25:18.640 --> 00:25:21.980
I'm going to run this until I die basically,

00:25:22.160 --> 00:25:24.819
right? Whereas the younger generation say, I'm

00:25:24.819 --> 00:25:26.099
going to do this for five years and then I'm

00:25:26.099 --> 00:25:28.259
going to move on, right? Which is really healthy

00:25:28.259 --> 00:25:30.559
because they start to think about how am I going

00:25:30.559 --> 00:25:33.480
to, what do I need to do to exit rather than

00:25:33.480 --> 00:25:35.579
just run the business on a day to day basis.

00:25:35.880 --> 00:25:37.839
So completely agree with you. But then there's

00:25:37.839 --> 00:25:39.640
no process. Like I think of the conversation

00:25:39.640 --> 00:25:41.759
I had with a woman and I was asking her if she

00:25:41.759 --> 00:25:44.400
had a CRM and as I was going like, what processes

00:25:44.400 --> 00:25:46.640
she used, how does she, you know, where does

00:25:46.640 --> 00:25:48.599
she use, what does she use for invoicing and

00:25:48.599 --> 00:25:52.480
accounting? And oh my god, it's so crazy. She

00:25:52.480 --> 00:25:56.859
like held up a folder. And I said, you're going

00:25:56.859 --> 00:25:59.579
to sell your folder? Like, nobody's going to

00:25:59.579 --> 00:26:01.940
want to buy a folder. You have to have processes.

00:26:02.119 --> 00:26:04.759
So talk to Len about what makes sense for the

00:26:04.759 --> 00:26:06.960
processes you need in your business. Because

00:26:06.960 --> 00:26:09.759
if you say to Len, everything is, it's not the

00:26:09.759 --> 00:26:12.170
worst thing if it's all on a sell sheet. But

00:26:12.170 --> 00:26:14.009
if everything's on scraps of piece of paper,

00:26:14.109 --> 00:26:16.890
or your sales, or you're not using a good system,

00:26:17.130 --> 00:26:19.750
yikers, yikeroonies. All right, so Len. Totally

00:26:19.750 --> 00:26:22.769
agree. Right? Totally agree. What is some of

00:26:22.769 --> 00:26:24.529
the biggest challenges that you're seeing in

00:26:24.529 --> 00:26:32.670
2025 with businesses? So a lot of what I'm seeing

00:26:32.670 --> 00:26:35.309
in terms of the small business environment is

00:26:35.309 --> 00:26:38.950
uncertainty is causing a lot of issues, right?

00:26:40.250 --> 00:26:44.950
it's better to know than to not know. And so

00:26:44.950 --> 00:26:49.109
I think, again, with my typical client base,

00:26:49.410 --> 00:26:51.109
they're getting to this point and they're saying,

00:26:51.690 --> 00:26:54.990
should I sell now? Should I wait? But there's

00:26:54.990 --> 00:26:59.490
this uncertainty. And I think the other parts

00:26:59.490 --> 00:27:01.430
of the uncertainty are just what's happening

00:27:01.430 --> 00:27:04.630
around terrorists, what's happening around the

00:27:04.630 --> 00:27:07.950
ability to hire qualified people and all the

00:27:07.950 --> 00:27:10.980
kind of typical ones. that's definitely different

00:27:10.980 --> 00:27:13.319
as tariffs. Nobody really knows what's going

00:27:13.319 --> 00:27:16.480
to happen with taxes. Those are things that are

00:27:16.480 --> 00:27:19.640
weighing heavily on, I think every small business

00:27:19.640 --> 00:27:22.119
is buying. The ones that I'm dealing with again

00:27:22.119 --> 00:27:25.740
because of the demographic, they're very much

00:27:25.740 --> 00:27:30.819
should I sell now or should I wait? This gets

00:27:30.819 --> 00:27:36.380
back to a little bit about why I try and get

00:27:36.380 --> 00:27:40.150
action sooner than later. In my opinion, it really

00:27:40.150 --> 00:27:42.470
takes about three to five years to get your business

00:27:42.470 --> 00:27:46.289
ready to transition out of. So if somebody is

00:27:46.289 --> 00:27:50.089
saying, I think I want to sell today, you know,

00:27:50.190 --> 00:27:53.950
anything's possible. But if you are not ready

00:27:53.950 --> 00:27:56.289
and you want to sell your business today, you're

00:27:56.289 --> 00:28:00.470
going to take a huge discount on the price if

00:28:00.470 --> 00:28:03.549
you can even sell it. So that's, you know, that's

00:28:03.549 --> 00:28:06.589
my advice is it's even if you thinking soon.

00:28:06.910 --> 00:28:09.569
You know, it really takes a long kind of a long

00:28:09.569 --> 00:28:14.170
time to get it ready. So don't put off thinking

00:28:14.170 --> 00:28:18.589
about this. That's so that's that's the big thing

00:28:18.589 --> 00:28:21.890
I'm seeing is, you know, the now or later decision.

00:28:21.950 --> 00:28:25.890
Really, there is no now. It's always later. And

00:28:25.890 --> 00:28:27.970
it's just how long and how prepared you're going

00:28:27.970 --> 00:28:32.309
to be. So, Len, I want to bring up the dolly.

00:28:32.349 --> 00:28:36.460
I want to bring up the digital. elephant that

00:28:36.460 --> 00:28:38.960
could be in the room, right? Someone's saying

00:28:38.960 --> 00:28:43.019
to you, oh, well, why do I really need a, I mean,

00:28:43.460 --> 00:28:46.279
I talked to ChatGBT. It's really my therapist

00:28:46.279 --> 00:28:48.660
helping me with a personal life. I think I could

00:28:48.660 --> 00:28:54.059
just ask AI how I exit my business. And I don't

00:28:54.059 --> 00:28:57.079
even need a Glenn. I'll just go right to AI.

00:28:57.200 --> 00:28:59.700
How do I exit my business? Can you please share

00:28:59.700 --> 00:29:04.410
why that is not a good strategy? Yeah, look,

00:29:04.769 --> 00:29:09.369
there are benefits to AI. I'm not going to discount

00:29:09.369 --> 00:29:15.430
those at all. The part that it cannot do is understand

00:29:15.430 --> 00:29:22.109
motivation. It can't understand feelings. And

00:29:22.109 --> 00:29:25.470
a lot of what I do, if you think about an exit

00:29:25.470 --> 00:29:28.869
plan, it really... relies on three things. There's

00:29:28.869 --> 00:29:31.509
the personal financial, like how much money do

00:29:31.509 --> 00:29:35.009
I need to do my next great thing? There's the

00:29:35.009 --> 00:29:38.049
personal, which is what am I going to do next?

00:29:38.950 --> 00:29:42.569
Am I going to volunteer? Am I going to start

00:29:42.569 --> 00:29:44.930
a nonprofit, whatever, start a new business?

00:29:45.230 --> 00:29:49.369
And then there's the business side. So can you

00:29:49.369 --> 00:29:54.390
have AI generate the steps? Yeah, pretty good.

00:29:54.769 --> 00:29:57.539
You can generate a blueprint. But it's really

00:29:57.539 --> 00:30:00.339
about getting to the core of why you're doing

00:30:00.339 --> 00:30:04.019
this as a business owner, what your goals are.

00:30:04.440 --> 00:30:09.480
And then again, being that sounding board based

00:30:09.480 --> 00:30:13.680
on experience, like real life experience. So

00:30:13.680 --> 00:30:19.059
if somebody wants to try it, it still doesn't

00:30:19.059 --> 00:30:22.539
solve that lonely part. I mean, I don't feel

00:30:22.539 --> 00:30:26.009
any less lonely when I'm chatting with. check

00:30:26.009 --> 00:30:29.210
GPT than I do when I'm just sitting at my desk.

00:30:29.930 --> 00:30:31.849
So those are the reasons that you know there's

00:30:31.849 --> 00:30:35.730
really the the pieces to it that that AI is never

00:30:35.730 --> 00:30:39.950
going to be able to understand. Can I I'm sorry

00:30:39.950 --> 00:30:44.549
I have to yell at my dog to stop. I also think

00:30:44.549 --> 00:30:48.269
that you won't know the if you're using AI you're

00:30:48.269 --> 00:30:50.799
not going to know the right questions to even

00:30:50.799 --> 00:30:53.740
ask it to begin with, because you're going to

00:30:53.740 --> 00:30:56.759
be relying on AI to ask you the questions. And

00:30:56.759 --> 00:30:59.400
if you, and that just won't work. I mean, when

00:30:59.400 --> 00:31:02.259
people say I use AI all day long and people are

00:31:02.259 --> 00:31:04.619
like, oh, so it writes for you? No, it's all

00:31:04.619 --> 00:31:07.099
my thoughts and ideas. Everything is still coming

00:31:07.099 --> 00:31:10.000
from me and I'm still able to massage it and

00:31:10.000 --> 00:31:12.420
ask the questions. But if you don't know anything,

00:31:12.680 --> 00:31:14.460
how would you even be able to communicate? You're

00:31:14.460 --> 00:31:20.140
not, you know, I want to sell my business. and

00:31:20.140 --> 00:31:24.119
you can't rely on tha coaches are important,

00:31:24.779 --> 00:31:29.880
th they don't go down like ch morning anyways.

00:31:31.500 --> 00:31:35.799
Right. He's like, he'll be up of the next day.

00:31:36.099 --> 00:31:40.799
Kind of is there anything that I d you would

00:31:40.799 --> 00:31:48.680
ask me? Or do yo I think you've asked a lot of

00:31:48.680 --> 00:31:51.200
great questions, right? The question about why

00:31:51.200 --> 00:31:55.500
a business coach, why not AI, I think are really

00:31:55.500 --> 00:32:01.000
valid. I think to me, the piece that I would,

00:32:01.599 --> 00:32:03.920
a couple things that I'd like to cover are there

00:32:03.920 --> 00:32:08.900
are many options to exit your business, right?

00:32:09.019 --> 00:32:13.420
It's not just selling, it's succession, management,

00:32:14.160 --> 00:32:20.670
it could be some kind of gradual transition to

00:32:20.670 --> 00:32:23.289
employees or manage. There are lots of options

00:32:23.289 --> 00:32:27.089
out there. The key thing is understanding that

00:32:27.089 --> 00:32:29.549
each of them have pros and cons, and that's one

00:32:29.549 --> 00:32:31.309
of the things I do. As I sit down, I say, these

00:32:31.309 --> 00:32:33.490
are the pros and cons. Let's talk through these

00:32:33.490 --> 00:32:37.450
things. What's the best thing for you? What I

00:32:37.450 --> 00:32:41.910
would say is that every business owner is different

00:32:41.910 --> 00:32:44.180
as to what matters to them. in terms of their

00:32:44.180 --> 00:32:48.079
exit. So some business owners say, I just want

00:32:48.079 --> 00:32:51.220
the most money. That's OK. That's their right.

00:32:52.279 --> 00:32:54.099
Typically, when you say that, you're not going

00:32:54.099 --> 00:32:56.359
to have a lot of say into what happens to your

00:32:56.359 --> 00:33:00.559
business when the check clears. If you want to

00:33:00.559 --> 00:33:03.119
have say, if you want to have legacy, a lot of

00:33:03.119 --> 00:33:04.400
times you're going to have to pick a different

00:33:04.400 --> 00:33:08.700
option or really find the right partner. So there

00:33:08.700 --> 00:33:13.220
are lots of options. That's one. And my final

00:33:13.220 --> 00:33:15.539
thing would be to say, I talked about this a

00:33:15.539 --> 00:33:17.720
little bit, there are things you should start

00:33:17.720 --> 00:33:22.660
doing today, even if you're years away. And let

00:33:22.660 --> 00:33:25.119
me just talk about a couple of those really quick.

00:33:26.059 --> 00:33:28.440
Start documenting your processes. This used to

00:33:28.440 --> 00:33:31.579
be painful. You used to have to write everything

00:33:31.579 --> 00:33:35.299
down. That was awful. You can now start a Loom

00:33:35.299 --> 00:33:40.150
video or just record yourself on a Zoom. This

00:33:40.150 --> 00:33:43.029
is how this works, right? You can do that in

00:33:43.029 --> 00:33:45.710
five, 10 minutes. That's perfect. You can update

00:33:45.710 --> 00:33:48.670
it if you need to. So document, document, document.

00:33:49.329 --> 00:33:51.430
The next thing I'll say is start to get, I talked

00:33:51.430 --> 00:33:53.450
about this earlier, start to get independent

00:33:53.450 --> 00:33:57.109
from your company. Start figuring out the things

00:33:57.109 --> 00:34:00.150
that you no longer need to be involved with,

00:34:00.309 --> 00:34:03.509
right? What that does is makes your business

00:34:03.509 --> 00:34:08.059
more saleable, more valuable. and has the added

00:34:08.059 --> 00:34:11.360
benefit of de -stresses you as the owner, right?

00:34:11.519 --> 00:34:14.659
You can start to let go of things. One of the

00:34:14.659 --> 00:34:17.460
crazy things I do with clients is I look at their

00:34:17.460 --> 00:34:21.099
customer base and I ask them to tell me about

00:34:21.099 --> 00:34:23.179
each of their customers, assuming they don't

00:34:23.179 --> 00:34:27.360
have 50 ,000. And I say, you know, tell me about

00:34:27.360 --> 00:34:30.000
this customer. And they'll say, oh, it was one

00:34:30.000 --> 00:34:32.440
of my first customers. That guy has an absolute

00:34:32.440 --> 00:34:35.590
pain in the you know what. I probably lose money

00:34:35.590 --> 00:34:40.110
on him. And I say, get rid of him. Fire that

00:34:40.110 --> 00:34:44.809
customer. And they say, well, but revenue, no.

00:34:45.130 --> 00:34:48.369
Nobody wants to inherit that customer. So do

00:34:48.369 --> 00:34:50.150
those things that you've always wanted to do,

00:34:50.210 --> 00:34:52.190
because they're going to make you happier, less

00:34:52.190 --> 00:34:54.929
stressed. And they're ultimately going to increase

00:34:54.929 --> 00:34:57.590
the value of your company. So I'll close on that.

00:34:58.030 --> 00:35:00.269
Just start to focus on the things you're really

00:35:00.269 --> 00:35:04.260
good at. Get rid of the rest. I love that. I

00:35:04.260 --> 00:35:07.199
love that. I had to fire a client once. It was

00:35:07.199 --> 00:35:09.500
a good feeling. Yeah, we have to enjoy what we

00:35:09.500 --> 00:35:12.219
do in our life. And I love what David Meltzer

00:35:12.219 --> 00:35:15.059
says, if you love what you do, then learn to

00:35:15.059 --> 00:35:18.119
love the things you don't love to do. And but

00:35:18.119 --> 00:35:23.280
then give them to someone else to do. Len is

00:35:23.280 --> 00:35:26.019
so interesting. I love it. I love that you I

00:35:26.019 --> 00:35:28.559
love that you came from the funeral home. I think

00:35:28.559 --> 00:35:32.119
that's got to be one of the most interesting.

00:35:32.349 --> 00:35:36.449
you know, like just careers, you know, and doing

00:35:36.449 --> 00:35:39.889
it and learning and handling people and understanding

00:35:39.889 --> 00:35:43.829
and must have had many people that. and had a

00:35:43.829 --> 00:35:48.710
business and th and I just think it's grea to

00:35:48.710 --> 00:35:52.769
funeral homes. They wi products because I love

00:35:52.769 --> 00:36:06.820
go ponchos for, you know, the cemetery when it's

00:36:06.820 --> 00:36:10.340
raining. Anyways, always fascinated about that.

00:36:10.420 --> 00:36:12.599
I remember having some clients that had the most

00:36:12.599 --> 00:36:15.019
beautiful pens, and that's what they would hand

00:36:15.019 --> 00:36:18.500
out beautiful like $10 pen as a gift for buying

00:36:18.500 --> 00:36:22.219
the, you know, $20 ,000 casket. So your parents

00:36:22.219 --> 00:36:25.599
had to sell a really fascinating. I love that.

00:36:25.659 --> 00:36:27.980
How many of your family went into the how many

00:36:27.980 --> 00:36:31.949
siblings went into just just one, just one. So

00:36:31.949 --> 00:36:36.170
my younger brother is running it, yep. I think

00:36:36.170 --> 00:36:38.269
that is so cool. And if you haven't watched,

00:36:38.269 --> 00:36:40.190
by the way, Six Feet Under, guys, just watch

00:36:40.190 --> 00:36:42.860
it. It gets better, like the fifth episode on.

00:36:43.639 --> 00:36:45.500
That's where it gets really juicy. All the crazy

00:36:45.500 --> 00:36:48.920
things happen. Anyways, Len, it's lovely talking

00:36:48.920 --> 00:36:50.820
to you. I love that you shared about the focal

00:36:50.820 --> 00:36:53.659
point and why it's good to be involved. And you

00:36:53.659 --> 00:36:56.519
can see Len has the website. You can Google him.

00:36:56.760 --> 00:36:59.559
He'll pop right up. And I will have the show

00:36:59.559 --> 00:37:01.780
notes. So this is live right now. We will be

00:37:01.780 --> 00:37:05.639
turned into a podcast about, unfortunately, about

00:37:05.639 --> 00:37:07.320
three months. So I'm glad we're doing a live

00:37:07.320 --> 00:37:09.780
now so you don't have to wait. I got a backlog.

00:37:09.840 --> 00:37:12.440
But Len, you have a lot of information. You should

00:37:12.440 --> 00:37:16.340
do your own podcast because you have a lot of

00:37:16.340 --> 00:37:19.980
information to share. And are you writing blogs

00:37:19.980 --> 00:37:22.000
too? Do you have articles? What do you do about

00:37:22.000 --> 00:37:26.739
that? What I am tending toward is doing, it's

00:37:26.739 --> 00:37:31.650
a bit of a... a bit of a hybrid. I do Q &A sessions

00:37:31.650 --> 00:37:35.269
with people who are associated with me. So I'll

00:37:35.269 --> 00:37:37.969
do a Q &A session with a financial planner or

00:37:37.969 --> 00:37:40.409
with a business broker or with a business lawyer,

00:37:40.550 --> 00:37:43.710
right? And we'll just go back and forth, really

00:37:43.710 --> 00:37:45.969
short, you know, three to five minutes, just

00:37:45.969 --> 00:37:48.969
super educational. Love it. And then I'm posting

00:37:48.969 --> 00:37:51.710
those. I love it. Yeah, that's kind of hot right

00:37:51.710 --> 00:37:55.130
now. The Daily Cafe is just the daily quick conversations

00:37:55.130 --> 00:37:58.309
that you can absorb very quickly. Len, thank

00:37:58.309 --> 00:38:00.969
you so much for your time and energy today. I

00:38:00.969 --> 00:38:03.809
absolutely enjoyed, enjoyed, enjoyed. And so

00:38:03.809 --> 00:38:06.889
thank you, everyone, for joining us. And Len

00:38:06.889 --> 00:38:09.650
Breskowitz. And if you have a business, you better

00:38:09.650 --> 00:38:11.809
be on the phone. Like pick it up now and call.

00:38:12.170 --> 00:38:16.909
Len, what's your phone number? 617 -356 -8102.

00:38:17.579 --> 00:38:19.900
You guys write that down, I'll put that in the

00:38:19.900 --> 00:38:22.360
chat. Come on, just pick it up. Let's do it again.

00:38:22.360 --> 00:38:27.079
It's on the website as well. Okay, so call Len.

00:38:27.699 --> 00:38:30.599
Now, don't be calling Len and calling him with

00:38:30.599 --> 00:38:33.440
weird things. Like, how much is it to cut my

00:38:33.440 --> 00:38:36.159
dog's hair? No, no, this is serious stuff. Don't

00:38:36.159 --> 00:38:39.000
be bothering Len unless you have business, because

00:38:39.000 --> 00:38:41.280
you'll make me look bad and nobody wants to make

00:38:41.280 --> 00:38:43.260
me look bad, especially my bangs look so good.

00:38:43.599 --> 00:38:46.320
All right, Len, what's your phone number? 617.

00:38:49.689 --> 00:38:54.730
356 -8102. And Len, just so you know, my phone

00:38:54.730 --> 00:39:00.610
number is 386 -631 -4577. I tell everyone, don't

00:39:00.610 --> 00:39:02.250
be afraid to give your number because you know

00:39:02.250 --> 00:39:03.869
what, if you're afraid to give your number...

00:39:03.880 --> 00:39:05.699
Nobody's going to be able to reach you. And that

00:39:05.699 --> 00:39:08.659
is crazy. How many, you know, and that to me

00:39:08.659 --> 00:39:11.039
is almost like the start of looking at a business.

00:39:11.059 --> 00:39:13.679
So I do LinkedIn for people and I cannot tell

00:39:13.679 --> 00:39:15.500
you one of the first things I have to do is like

00:39:15.500 --> 00:39:18.059
go to the contact. Is this your phone number?

00:39:18.679 --> 00:39:20.619
No, I haven't had the phone number five years.

00:39:20.880 --> 00:39:24.119
Is this your website? No. And I'm like, how are

00:39:24.119 --> 00:39:25.840
people supposed to reach you? LinkedIn is so

00:39:25.840 --> 00:39:28.260
high up. Get your Google My Business page. Even

00:39:28.260 --> 00:39:30.539
that Google My Business profile. I'll go through

00:39:30.539 --> 00:39:34.880
it. And half of it is not. any information, or

00:39:34.880 --> 00:39:37.239
you have a website and you have zero way to get

00:39:37.239 --> 00:39:41.119
in touch with you? People, I mean, like it's

00:39:41.119 --> 00:39:43.400
not rocket science, right? How many clients have

00:39:43.400 --> 00:39:46.380
you had that when you do the deep dive, you're

00:39:46.380 --> 00:39:49.019
like, finding you is like having to try to find

00:39:49.019 --> 00:39:51.079
the phone number for Elon Musk, probably easier

00:39:51.079 --> 00:39:54.750
to get Elon's phone number. Yeah, you know, and

00:39:54.750 --> 00:39:57.030
again, it really depends on the business but

00:39:57.030 --> 00:40:01.869
it's Yeah, people complain nobody calls me yet

00:40:01.869 --> 00:40:04.650
you make it impossible for them to do so So great

00:40:04.650 --> 00:40:07.150
get a burner phone if you're afraid of it. I

00:40:07.150 --> 00:40:09.150
don't know. I never have fear My phone number

00:40:09.150 --> 00:40:11.309
is all over the place Len. Thank you for your

00:40:11.309 --> 00:40:13.769
time today. Have a great taste taco Tuesday So

00:40:13.769 --> 00:40:15.829
I hope you have a taco in your future. I got

00:40:15.829 --> 00:40:18.369
three or four I could eat five corn tacos, but

00:40:18.369 --> 00:40:20.349
don't tell anyway. All right. Have a great rest

00:40:20.349 --> 00:40:22.690
of the day Thank you so much. It was lovely having

00:40:22.690 --> 00:40:26.070
you Awesome. Thank you. You're welcome. That

00:40:26.070 --> 00:40:29.289
was fun. Wait, the time went by so fast. I'm

00:40:29.289 --> 00:40:29.610
sorry.