Jan. 7, 2026

How Radical Product Thinking Turns Vision Into Daily Action with Radhika Dutt

Send us a text You can feel when a team is chasing numbers instead of solving problems. We invited author and product leader Radhika Dutt to walk us through a practical shift: build a vision your team can use, then turn that vision into decisions you can defend. No fluff, no vague slogans—just a clear blueprint for who you’re serving, the pain you’re addressing, and how your product truly changes their world. Radhika breaks down the “product diseases” that creep into organizations when visio...

Send us a text

You can feel when a team is chasing numbers instead of solving problems. We invited author and product leader Radhika Dutt to walk us through a practical shift: build a vision your team can use, then turn that vision into decisions you can defend. No fluff, no vague slogans—just a clear blueprint for who you’re serving, the pain you’re addressing, and how your product truly changes their world.

Radhika breaks down the “product diseases” that creep into organizations when vision is fuzzy: pivotitis from chasing shiny ideas, obsessive sales disorder from one-off deals, and strategic swelling that tries to be everything to everyone. She then shows how to pivot with gravitas by explaining what you learned, where you were wrong, and why the next move makes sense. We map trade-offs on two axes—long-term vision and short-term survival—so teams can spot when to invest, when to accept vision debt, and how to avoid the slow slide into roadmap chaos.

We also dig into why goals and targets often backfire, splintering collaboration across sales, product, and marketing. The antidote is puzzle-setting: define the shared puzzle, run focused experiments, and ask three simple questions—how well did it work, what did we learn, and what will we try next? Radhika shares a striking case study where honoring tech-averse users’ need for control (not “magic” automation) doubled sales two years in a row. Along the way, we show how the same framework can guide your personal choices, helping you balance purpose with survival so work feels energizing, not soul-sucking.

If you’re ready to replace fluff with focus, and targets with learning, this conversation is your playbook. Grab the free Radical Product Thinking toolkit, explore puzzle-setting with the OHL’s Toolkit, and tell us how you’re aligning your next decision with your vision. Subscribe, share with a teammate, and leave a review to help others find the show.

Connect with Radhika Dutt

Get Radhika Dutt Book on Amazon

https://www.amazon.com/Radical-Product-Thinking-Mindset-Innovating/dp/1523093315

Website: https://rdutt.com/

https://www.radicalproduct.com/

https://www.radicalproduct.com/toolkit/#OHLToolkit

Linkedln: https://www.linkedin.com/in/radhika-dutt/

Stay tuned for the next episode of Ready Set Collaborate with Wanda Pearson. Subscribe - Follow and Like Ready Set Collaborate with Wanda Pearson

00:00 - Opening & Guest Intro

01:11 - Radica’s Background Across Industries

04:50 - Product Diseases Defined

08:13 - Pivoting With Gravitas

10:54 - Writing A Clear, Useful Vision

15:00 - Balancing Vision And Survival

19:05 - From Vision To Strategy And Execution

22:00 - Collaboration, Alignment, And Targets

26:00 - Puzzle Setting vs. Goal Setting

29:05 - Case Study: Serving Tech-Averse Users

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Welcome to Ready Set Collaborate with Wanda Pearson.

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This is where ideas spark, connections grow, and collaborations fuse success.

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Tune in for inspiring stories, expert insights, and game-changing conversations.

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Let's build, connect, and thrive together.

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Remember, collaboration is the key to success.

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Welcome, welcome to the ReadySet Collaborate Podcast with Wanda Pearson, where collaboration is the key to success.

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Today's guest is a Powerhouse and Innovative Leadership Radica Dut.

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Is that say it right?

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Ducks.

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Okay, that author of Radical Product Thinking, the new mindset for innovating smarter.

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So, Rackler, say hello to the audience.

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Hi, everyone.

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I'm excited to be here, Wanda.

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Yes, I'm excited that you reached out to me.

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It's about educating and empowering people and letting people know what you do and how you can help them as far as going forward.

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Because a lot of things, I always say collaboration is the key to success, right?

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Let me read your bio and let's get this party started.

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Okay.

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Okay, so Radical Dut is the author of Radical Product Thinking, the new mindset for innovating smarter, which has been translated into Chinese and Japanese.

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The mythology she introduced in her first book is now used in over 40 countries.

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Wow.

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She is an entrepreneur, speaker, and product leader who has participated in five acquisitions, two of which were companies that she founded.

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Wow.

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She actually advisor of she's actually the advisor, currently the advisor of product thinking of the monetary author of Singapore's central bank and financial regulator, and does consulting and training for organizations ranging from high-tech startups to multinationals on building radical products that create a fundamental change.

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I love that Radica because, you know, me coming from corporate anyway, we'll get into that.

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We're gonna talk about that here.

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So Radica has built products in a wide range of industries, including broadcast, media, and entertainment, telecom, advertising, technology, government, consumer apps, robotics, and even you say even wine?

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Mm-hmm.

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Okay.

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I'd like to have a glass of that right now.

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Even wine.

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She graduated from MIT with an SB and M-N-E-N-G in electrical engineering, speaks nine language.

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Wow, that is awesome.

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Radical is now working on her second book.

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It's about why goals and targets backfire, what actually works.

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So this is very impressive, Radica.

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I really love this, but you got me on the wine.

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I guess the theme in my career has been that I've never held two consecutive jobs in the same industry.

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I think Wanda, where you chose focus and a corporate role for a really long time in one industry, mine has been all over the place, in every possible industry and all the way from government to startups to multinationals.

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But yeah, it kept it kept things spun up.

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Yeah, it does.

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It enhances your what you can teach everyone.

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So you said you speak nine languages.

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Tell me the nine languages that you speak, please.

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There's aside from English, it's Italian, French, Spanish, Japanese, Afrikaans, which are spoken in South Africa, and then Hindi, Tamil, and Marathi, which are three different Indian languages, even with different scripts.

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Wow.

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Wow.

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That's impressive.

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And that's great because then you can understand what people are talking about as you want to get forward.

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You don't need to translate it because you already speak it, right?

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It is fun sometimes when you can listen in our conversation and then you can spring in saying, and people say are shocked.

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I love it.

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So where are you from originally?

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So I'm from India, and I lived there till I was 12, and then we moved to South Africa and we moved there right after apartheid laws were abolished in 1991.

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And we lived there till 95.

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I lived there till 95 when the first democratic elections happened.

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And then I came here to the US for undergrad.

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So yes, South Africa during its momentous days.

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Okay.

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I love it.

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I know because I can hear the accent.

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I love the accent that you only because I because my my VA is actually from South Africa.

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So she's just in South Africa.

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And I love it.

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I've had her for over five years now.

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And I love the accents that you have, even London, all these places all coming together.

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But I had to say, where are you from originally?

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I know you live in Boston.

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Sometimes I just like to make people guess you're just lucky I didn't play that game with you today.

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I know.

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I would have caught it because you do sound like this fact.

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Oh, so fascinating.

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You're one of the rare people.

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Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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Definitely, definitely.

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So I had to ask that question.

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So your book, Radical Product Thinking, challenges the traditional approach to innovation.

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What inspired you to create this new mindset?

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So what I was seeing was product diseases.

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And what do I mean by product diseases?

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I'm going to mention a few, and I think our listeners, it's going to resonate for them.

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One example is the product disease pivotitis, of where you keep pivoting from one shiny idea to the next.

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Another example is obsessive sales disorder.

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This is where it's a disease I've contributed to too, which is basically your salesperson says to you with this glimmer in their eye, if you just add this one custom feature, we can win this multi-million dollar deal.

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And that sounds really tempting.

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So we say, Yeah, let's go for it.

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Right.

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And pretty soon all of your roadmap is driven by everything you have to make good on.

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And another example of a product disease is strategic swelling, where your product is trying to do everything for everyone.

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It'll make coffee if you just ask nicely.

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And so these are product diseases that I'd caught.

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And there was a point where, through my experience, I had learned to avoid these product diseases.

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But then I was watching other people catch these diseases.

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And what led me to write radical product thinking was this burning question are we all doomed to just learning from failures and trial and error how to build great products?

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Or is there a systematic step-by-step process that we can guide people through so that we can build those world-changing products and avoid product diseases?

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And that's what radical product thinking is about, to offer the step-by-step approach.

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I love that because I can relate to everything you're saying.

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Because I work I work with marketing reps in corporate.

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And sure enough, let's put this in there.

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Maybe the customer, but everything you're saying, I can relate to, being for so long.

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So thank you for explaining that.

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That's awesome.

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That's awesome.

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What do you call it?

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Pivotitis?

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Is that what you have?

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Yes.

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I love the idea of pivoting because you have to pivot to another way.

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Okay, that's not gonna sell.

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So let's try this way.

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And it's not to say that you shouldn't pivot.

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It's pivoting is important.

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It's just that you have to pivot with gravitas because if you keep pivoting, your team feels whiplashed where you're switching from one idea to another.

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When you pivot with gravitas, you have clarity of what exactly is our vision, a detailed vision.

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So people understand what is the problem we're setting out to solve.

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And when you pivot, there has to be clarity on what did we learn?

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Where did we go wrong?

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What are we going to try next?

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Why are we trying that next?

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When you have this level of clarity, then you bring everyone with you on the journey as you pivot.

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That's how you don't catch pivotitis.

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Yeah.

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I love it how you just explained that.

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It makes perfectly sense.

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Yeah.

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So you often say innovation should start with a clear vision, right?

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How do leaders begin defining that vision effectively?

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Oh, I love this question.

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It's close to my heart because what we've been taught is writing these big fluffy vision statements like empowering the world to express themselves and thereby creating progress for humanity.

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It's what does that even mean?

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That's the vision for Snapchat.

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But honestly, creating progress for humanity by expressing yourself, like that could be a fashion brand, it could be a sticker company, it could be a dance studio, it could be anything, right?

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Anything goes when you have these big fluffy visions.

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Being the leader in blah, blah, like again, fluffy vision that doesn't tell your team, what do I do to be the leader in blah?

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And so a good vision is something that defines a lot of the answers around whose problem are you addressing?

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What is their problem?

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Why does that problem need to be addressed?

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Because honestly, maybe it doesn't.

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Then we can answer what is the end status you envision it.

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And then finally, this is finally where you've earned the right to talk about your product, is how will your product bring it about?

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And so here's an example of a radical vision statement.

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This is the fill-in-the-blank statement in the vision uh in the radical product thinking book, written for the wine startup that I told you about.

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Here it goes.

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Today, when amateur wine drinkers want to find wines that they're likely to like and learn about wine, they have to find attractive-looking wine labels or find wines that are on sale.

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This is unacceptable because it leads to so many disappointments, and it's hard to learn about wine in this way.

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We envision a world where finding wines you like is as easy as finding movies you like on Netflix.

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We're bringing about this world through a recommendations algorithm that matches wines to your personal taste and an operational setup that delivers these wines to your door.

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That's a good one.

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Because I actually did find a wine.

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I never heard of chocolate wine.

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You ever heard of chocolate wine?

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No.

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I love it now.

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Chocolate wine.

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And you think about it, it has a lot of alcohol.

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I said, wow, this is really interesting.

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So I feel like I'm drinking chocolate milk.

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So you got to be very careful that you're not drinking a chocolate milk.

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But yeah, so chocolate wine that they actually have out there now.

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I'm part of a wine wine club, and we taste different wines.

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But no, I love how you you put that in perspective here.

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And ultimately, like one thing you get out of that whole vision statement is I hadn't told you anything about the wine startup.

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All you knew was that it was about wine.

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But hopefully, after that vision statement, you knew exactly what problem we were solving and why.

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And that's the level of detail that your vision needs to have to be a good vision, so that it acts like a filter.

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Because sometimes you need to be able to ask, should I do this or not?

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And when you look at the vision, it says, no, don't do it.

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And when you have these broad, floppy vision statements like contributing to human progress, then anything goes.

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And that's not a good filter.

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That really makes sense.

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Thank you.

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Because a lot of us do write that vision statement.

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When we open up, we have our websites.

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What is your vision?

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What do you want to do?

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And that's actually what I do.

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I coaching, I coach and consult people about their vision.

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What do you encounter?

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What do you want to be when you grow up?

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That's the vision that you're putting out there.

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But that's great.

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That's great.

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So many entrepreneurs chase quick wins, right?

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How can they balance short-term success with long-term purpose?

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Yeah, I love this question because even when you have a really clear vision, you have to balance that against the short-term business needs.

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And so this is where, as a leader, by the way, you realize that you have this intuition that you've built for how do you balance long-term against short-term.

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And what I call it is the yin and yang of long-term versus short term, but for your team, you can make this yin and yang very explicit on an X and a Y axis.

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So your Y axis, is this good for the vision or not?

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And the X-axis, is this good for survival or not?

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So survival is the short term and the vision is the long term.

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And so things that are good for vision and survival, those are the easy decisions.

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But if you always just stick to the easy decisions, then sometimes you're still being myopic.

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So sometimes you have to invest in the vision.

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That's where it's good for the long-term vision, but it's not good for the short-term survival.

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So an example of that is if you're focusing on, let's say, training, if you're focusing on taking some time to refactor your code and fix some technical debt, then you're investing in the vision.

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And the opposite of investing in the vision quadrant is what I call the vision debt quadrant.

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This is the quadrant that's good for short-term survival.

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So, for example, maybe it's going to help you win that mega million dollar deal, but it's not good for the long-term vision because it requires building custom features that's not scalable.

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And so that's vision debt.

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So remember some of those product diseases we talked about, like obsessive sales disorder.

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When you take on a lot of vision debt, then you catch obsessive sales disorder.

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And so to answer your question, how do you balance long-term versus short-term?

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It's really looking at the opportunities and the initiatives and how are you balancing these quadrants, right?

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If you just take on mostly easy decisions, you have to consider maybe I should also be investing in the vision.

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If you find yourself doing a lot of vision debt, you have to consider maybe you honestly need that to survive if you're a bootstrap startup.

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But maybe you could consider how am I going to invest in the vision?

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How would I move upwards to that easy decisions quadrant?

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Only you know what is right for your business, because you know what is the right trade-off in terms of vision versus survival.

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But what is important is to align the whole team on how you're balancing the two so that you can scale as a leader and collaborate better.

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Because even when you're not there in that meeting, maybe you're away on vacation, maybe you know, you just want to scale as a leader and not be in every meeting.

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But when you have communicated to your team how to balance that vision versus survival, you know that if you're not in that meeting, that people are still going to think like you do on that vision versus survival and make the kinds of decisions you would have.

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That's great.

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That's a great thing.

00:13:59.919 --> 00:14:06.320
And we the next question is about you talk about turning vision into reality through deliberate innovation.

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Can you explain how radical product thinking helps organizations do that?

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Yeah, it's a way of very systematically translating that vision into everyday actions.

00:14:18.000 --> 00:14:21.600
And so we talked so far about having that detailed vision for your team, right?

00:14:21.759 --> 00:14:33.279
So basically, the way I like to talk about this in construction analogy is, you know, when you have fluffy vision statements like revolutionizing wireless, which was, by the way, a mistake I made in my first startup.

00:14:33.600 --> 00:14:36.080
That was our vision statement, where I still don't know what that meant, right?

00:14:36.240 --> 00:14:41.039
When you have a vision statement like that, it's like telling your team, I want the biggest, baddest house.

00:14:41.279 --> 00:14:47.039
Whereas when you have a detailed vision like what I described, it's like giving your team a blueprint so they know what to construct.

00:14:47.360 --> 00:14:53.519
Then you translate that into a detailed strategy that helps you define who are the personas I'm going after?

00:14:53.759 --> 00:14:58.000
Who needs, who has the pain where they need my product?

00:14:58.240 --> 00:15:01.519
What is that problem that I'm addressing for them?

00:15:01.759 --> 00:15:06.080
Then you can answer how is my product solving that problem for them?

00:15:06.399 --> 00:15:12.080
Then how is the underlying technology or the engine that is helping address those solutions?

00:15:12.240 --> 00:15:17.519
And then finally, how do I translate that into a business model, into sales channels, et cetera?

00:15:17.600 --> 00:15:19.279
So it's a comprehensive strategy.

00:15:19.519 --> 00:15:27.679
And then you can translate those, that vision and strategy into priorities, thinking about how am I balancing vision versus survival, which we just talked about.

00:15:27.919 --> 00:15:35.440
And then finally, you can translate all of this into agile or lean execution and measurement.

00:15:35.679 --> 00:15:38.399
And this is, by the way, where that next book is coming in.

00:15:38.639 --> 00:15:40.159
How do you measure what actually matters?

00:15:40.320 --> 00:15:48.240
So instead of setting goals, figuring out puzzles that are getting in the way and overcoming those obstacles by figuring out those puzzles.

00:15:48.320 --> 00:15:50.559
And how do you do puzzle setting and puzzle solving?

00:15:50.720 --> 00:15:52.639
So we can talk about that afterwards.

00:15:52.799 --> 00:16:07.279
But the point of radical product thinking is it's a framework that guides you through each of these steps so that you can very systematically translate your vision for change into everyday actions so that you can engineer the change you want to bring about.

00:16:08.080 --> 00:16:08.799
That's awesome.

00:16:08.960 --> 00:16:10.320
And we're going to talk about collaboration.

00:16:10.399 --> 00:16:14.240
So collaboration, collaboration plays a role in innovation, right?

00:16:14.480 --> 00:16:18.399
So how can teams stay aligned with visions or priorities that are different?

00:16:18.559 --> 00:16:25.120
So how do you how's it different with the visions and the priorities that are different from everything that goes on in corporate?

00:16:25.440 --> 00:16:25.759
Yeah.

00:16:26.000 --> 00:16:27.919
And there are two pieces of this, right?

00:16:28.080 --> 00:16:32.480
The first one is the alignment on the vision itself.

00:16:32.720 --> 00:16:38.720
And very often, and if you're in the corporate world, and maybe you're in a position of power, maybe you're not.

00:16:39.360 --> 00:16:49.919
If you're not in a position of power in the corporate world, going at this from the angle of we need to talk about our vision, we need more clarity, might be a very difficult word.

00:16:50.399 --> 00:16:53.120
Because it's going to be like, who are you to question vision?

00:16:53.279 --> 00:16:57.360
You're when you're not in a position of leadership, that is a tough sell.

00:16:57.519 --> 00:17:12.960
So the way I approach this sometimes is by starting on the vision versus survival quadrant, if I want to push back on a feature or an initiative, I draw it up on the vision versus survival and say, I feel like maybe we're taking on vision debt.

00:17:13.119 --> 00:17:15.519
Here's why I say this is vision debt.

00:17:15.680 --> 00:17:17.440
And it triggers the conversation.

00:17:17.599 --> 00:17:19.039
Like, are we aligned on the vision?

00:17:19.200 --> 00:17:22.079
Are we aligned on survival?

00:17:22.319 --> 00:17:24.160
And that triggers conversations.

00:17:24.319 --> 00:17:28.559
And then you can have in your back pocket ready, maybe we're not aligned on the vision.

00:17:28.720 --> 00:17:31.759
Here's what I understand of our vision together.

00:17:31.920 --> 00:17:33.519
And you can talk about that.

00:17:33.599 --> 00:17:39.200
And that sparks the conversation, maybe with leadership, saying, oh, I actually thought about the vision in this way.

00:17:39.359 --> 00:17:43.759
So this way you're not arguing just my opinion versus yours.

00:17:44.000 --> 00:17:46.480
It's more collaborative discussions.

00:17:46.720 --> 00:17:49.680
That's how you can have those more collaborative discussions.

00:17:49.920 --> 00:17:57.839
And the second thing I'll say in terms of what really destroys collaboration in an organization is targets.

00:17:58.160 --> 00:18:00.400
Goals and targets destroy collaboration.

00:18:00.559 --> 00:18:01.440
Why do I say that?

00:18:01.680 --> 00:18:07.200
Because often one team might have certain targets they're chasing, another team has a different set of targets.

00:18:07.440 --> 00:18:13.920
How often has it happened where one team needs help from the other team and they say, guys, I can't help you right now.

00:18:14.079 --> 00:18:16.000
We're working on our targets.

00:18:16.240 --> 00:18:17.519
I see this in sales.

00:18:17.680 --> 00:18:18.960
I'm chasing my targets.

00:18:19.039 --> 00:18:20.079
I can't help you right now.

00:18:20.319 --> 00:18:25.680
It leads to this erosion of collaboration because different teams are chasing these targets.

00:18:25.920 --> 00:18:29.519
So to this, people say, well, that just means you need to align your targets better.

00:18:29.759 --> 00:18:31.359
But it's not practical.

00:18:31.599 --> 00:18:37.839
What I find is that a mindset of puzzle setting and puzzle solving drives better collaboration.

00:18:38.319 --> 00:18:43.440
Instead of just setting targets, let's define what is the puzzle we're solving together.

00:18:43.839 --> 00:18:46.000
So I'll give you a quick example if that's helpful.

00:18:46.160 --> 00:18:47.839
When you're talking about sales, right?

00:18:48.079 --> 00:18:54.319
A sales target might be hit X million by the end of this year, and each person is a lone wolf chasing their target.

00:18:54.799 --> 00:18:59.039
Whereas a puzzle might be sales grew in the last three years.

00:18:59.200 --> 00:19:01.200
They've plateaued in this last year.

00:19:01.839 --> 00:19:03.279
What might be going on?

00:19:03.519 --> 00:19:06.000
And the puzzle requires asking tough questions.

00:19:06.160 --> 00:19:08.480
Is it that something has fundamentally changed in the market?

00:19:08.640 --> 00:19:12.640
Maybe AI has brought about some changes that we haven't adapted to.

00:19:13.440 --> 00:19:18.079
Maybe it's that we knew how to sell to the early adopter.

00:19:18.160 --> 00:19:20.319
We haven't figured out how to sell to the mass market.

00:19:20.640 --> 00:19:23.680
How do we address the messaging for the mass market?

00:19:24.079 --> 00:19:25.599
So that's setting the puzzle.

00:19:25.680 --> 00:19:31.119
How do we solve these open questions so that we can get back to that growth trajectory?

00:19:31.599 --> 00:19:39.920
And now you can create collaborative learning by asking three questions as you solve puzzles, which is how well did it work?

00:19:40.079 --> 00:19:42.720
So whatever experiment, I'm going to try out new messaging.

00:19:43.119 --> 00:19:44.559
How well did it work?

00:19:45.440 --> 00:19:46.559
What did we learn?

00:19:47.119 --> 00:19:52.720
This is where we can say, oh, maybe this new messaging is getting us decision maker meetings.

00:19:53.200 --> 00:19:53.599
Great.

00:19:53.839 --> 00:19:54.960
So that's working.

00:19:55.119 --> 00:19:56.799
We learned that we're getting meetings.

00:19:57.359 --> 00:20:04.079
And we learned that, oh, maybe there's one other group that we haven't been talking to that influences this decision maker.

00:20:04.240 --> 00:20:05.359
We need to be talking to them.

00:20:05.759 --> 00:20:09.759
And so the last question is, what will you try next?

00:20:10.160 --> 00:20:15.680
This is where we ask the question if I give you a magic wand, what will you ask for?

00:20:16.319 --> 00:20:21.759
And maybe this is where I'm going to create a webinar to talk to this group we've never been talking to before.

00:20:22.319 --> 00:20:28.400
So by doing puzzle setting and puzzle solving, we improve collaborative learning and working together.

00:20:28.720 --> 00:20:29.119
That's good.

00:20:29.200 --> 00:20:29.599
That's good.

00:20:29.680 --> 00:20:32.240
So you've applied your framework across industries, right?

00:20:32.400 --> 00:20:37.519
Can you share a story of how a transwomen organization's approach to innovation?

00:20:38.480 --> 00:20:38.880
Yeah.

00:20:39.039 --> 00:20:42.559
So there is a company I've been working with in the last two years.

00:20:42.799 --> 00:20:46.799
And when I started, they used to use targets for everything.

00:20:46.960 --> 00:20:58.880
They had targets for sales, for product teams, uh, and various metrics that product teams had to achieve on their product, like user engagement, time spent on site, blah, blah.

00:20:59.119 --> 00:21:03.359
We shifted from that to a mindset of puzzle setting and puzzle solving.

00:21:03.599 --> 00:21:10.240
So the puzzle was we're seeing that only this group of users is using the product.

00:21:10.480 --> 00:21:12.720
It's these tech savvy users.

00:21:13.519 --> 00:21:16.880
And the puzzle was, why aren't the tech averse users using it?

00:21:17.279 --> 00:21:21.680
Now, what happens often in companies is you would look at this question and you would jump to the solution.

00:21:21.759 --> 00:21:25.359
You'd go, okay, I'm gonna look at the data, I'm gonna be data driven, ta-da.

00:21:25.519 --> 00:21:29.359
I see the data is saying that everyone is complaining about filtering.

00:21:29.759 --> 00:21:32.160
Let's look at all of this customer feedback.

00:21:32.319 --> 00:21:36.160
We're gonna improve filtering, jump to the solution, ta-da.

00:21:37.279 --> 00:21:38.240
But you know what?

00:21:38.480 --> 00:21:41.680
We instead decided to set the puzzle in a deeper way.

00:21:42.319 --> 00:21:44.000
Is filtering the problem?

00:21:44.400 --> 00:21:47.759
Is it that do tech averse users work in the same way?

00:21:47.920 --> 00:21:48.640
How do they work?

00:21:48.799 --> 00:21:49.680
What do they do?

00:21:50.000 --> 00:21:52.960
How do they work differently from who's using our product today?

00:21:53.200 --> 00:21:57.839
We went and asked these questions and we looked, watched customers using our product.

00:21:58.319 --> 00:22:00.000
Then came puzzle solving.

00:22:00.960 --> 00:22:06.720
We tried, once we understood the workflow, we could then try experiments.

00:22:07.200 --> 00:22:09.039
And we tried an experiment, right?

00:22:09.359 --> 00:22:12.480
We tried the workflow, we built that into a prototype.

00:22:12.960 --> 00:22:16.559
We also built a lot of automation into the workflow.

00:22:16.799 --> 00:22:18.480
And we asked the three questions.

00:22:19.440 --> 00:22:20.720
How well did it work?

00:22:21.440 --> 00:22:22.480
It didn't work.

00:22:22.960 --> 00:22:23.920
Fascinating.

00:22:24.160 --> 00:22:25.680
So the workflow worked.

00:22:25.759 --> 00:22:27.680
People like the workflow, but they didn't like the automation.

00:22:27.920 --> 00:22:29.279
And you would go, I don't understand.

00:22:29.440 --> 00:22:29.920
Why not?

00:22:30.079 --> 00:22:32.000
Because these are tech averse people.

00:22:32.160 --> 00:22:34.640
If I automate things for them, wouldn't they like it?

00:22:35.440 --> 00:22:38.319
So the next question what did we learn?

00:22:39.119 --> 00:22:43.680
We figured out that these tech averse people, they actually don't like magic.

00:22:43.839 --> 00:22:46.720
They don't like that everything felt like magic.

00:22:46.880 --> 00:22:48.319
They don't trust magic.

00:22:48.960 --> 00:22:50.640
What they wanted was control.

00:22:51.599 --> 00:22:55.119
So the third question, what will we do next?

00:22:55.599 --> 00:22:58.240
So what we decided was we would keep the workflow.

00:22:58.400 --> 00:23:04.559
And instead of adding automation, we guide them through each step so they feel in control.

00:23:04.640 --> 00:23:08.400
So we gave them this user interface that guides them step by step.

00:23:08.960 --> 00:23:13.440
And this is how, you know, we kept setting and solving puzzles.

00:23:13.519 --> 00:23:23.359
And by doing that, we went from sales that had stalled in 2023 to doubling sales in 2024 and again doubling in 2025.

00:23:23.680 --> 00:23:28.960
This is how you can drive real results for your business as opposed to just setting targets.

00:23:30.559 --> 00:23:31.359
That makes sense.

00:23:31.519 --> 00:23:32.480
That makes sense with that.

00:23:32.720 --> 00:23:37.599
And we're winding down, I can talk to you forever because you've really given some great information here.

00:23:37.839 --> 00:23:45.200
So, how can individuals, not just companies, use radical product thinking to live and work with more purpose?

00:23:46.960 --> 00:23:48.799
This, I love this question.

00:23:49.039 --> 00:23:53.759
One story that I write about in the book is that of Claudette Colvin.

00:23:53.920 --> 00:24:08.240
And Claudette Colvin, for those of us who might not have heard her name, she was one of the first people to ever get arrested for defying bus segregation uh rules in Montgomery, Alabama.

00:24:08.400 --> 00:24:11.519
And this was nine months before Rosa Parks, by the way.

00:24:11.599 --> 00:24:13.119
She refused to give up her seat.

00:24:13.440 --> 00:24:14.880
And it's such a powerful story.

00:24:14.960 --> 00:24:17.279
I interviewed her for Radical Product Thinking.

00:24:17.759 --> 00:24:24.079
Um, and I actually have a book, uh a picture of her holding the radical product thinking book, which is so meaningful for me.

00:24:24.640 --> 00:24:39.599
The story that I want to share about how individuals can use this is even whether or not you use this at work, but you can use this at work too, but you can think about how you're constantly balancing your vision against survival, right?

00:24:39.839 --> 00:24:44.400
You can have a North Star in terms of your vision and think about survival.

00:24:44.640 --> 00:24:55.440
And in the case of Claudette Colvin, right, if you think about her decision to not give up her seat, yeah, she was investing in the vision, right?

00:24:55.519 --> 00:25:00.160
Because it was good for the long-term vision, but it wasn't helpful for her short-term survival.

00:25:00.480 --> 00:25:04.880
And when I interviewed her, she said even that decision was a spur-of-the-moment decision.

00:25:05.119 --> 00:25:23.119
What truly showed her investment in the vision was her being a key plaintiff in that landmark Supreme Court case where she gave her testimony, her fiery testimony that decided, that led to the Supreme Court decision of abolishing bus segregation laws.

00:25:23.359 --> 00:25:25.519
That was truly her investment and her vision.

00:25:25.680 --> 00:25:27.519
And I asked her what was her vision.

00:25:27.680 --> 00:25:33.039
And she said that she wanted a world where everyone could share the same American dream.

00:25:33.200 --> 00:25:37.839
She was tired of all these grown-ups talking about that dream, but not doing anything about it.

00:25:38.000 --> 00:25:41.359
And that's what led her to investing in that vision.

00:25:41.680 --> 00:25:49.680
That story is so powerful for me, and I think it's so inspiring for us all to think about how do we balance vision versus survival?

00:25:49.839 --> 00:25:52.559
And we can apply this in our everyday lives.

00:25:53.039 --> 00:25:53.680
I love that.

00:25:53.759 --> 00:25:54.160
I love it.

00:25:54.240 --> 00:25:56.000
And I never heard of it before.

00:25:56.079 --> 00:25:57.599
So that's good to know.

00:25:57.759 --> 00:25:59.359
So I'm definitely going to get your book.

00:25:59.519 --> 00:26:07.200
So, what advice would you give small business owners, creators, or even community leaders who want to think more radically about their products or services?

00:26:08.240 --> 00:26:13.920
So the first thing I'd say is you can get the free toolkit from the Radical Product Thinking website.

00:26:14.160 --> 00:26:20.799
There's the toolkit for radical product thinking where I talked about this vision, this approach to doing vision versus survival, et cetera.

00:26:20.960 --> 00:26:26.799
And you can also, from the same website, get the toolkit for puzzle setting and puzzle solving.

00:26:26.880 --> 00:26:29.839
It's called the OHL's Toolkit, and I'll send a link for that too.

00:26:30.079 --> 00:26:32.400
So our listeners can use all of those things.

00:26:32.640 --> 00:26:35.759
They're also very welcome to reach out to me on LinkedIn.

00:26:36.000 --> 00:26:38.720
So as you apply these approaches, you're welcome to reach out.

00:26:38.799 --> 00:26:40.720
I'd love to hear your experiences.

00:26:40.960 --> 00:26:43.359
You can get the Radical Product Thinking Toolkit.

00:26:43.599 --> 00:26:46.240

How Radical Product Thinking Turns Vision Into Daily Action with Radhika Dutt

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