Feb. 4, 2026
Witness or Defendant
Earwitness, Chapter 4 | Witness or Defendant
Digging into the Hardy murder investigation, Beth Shelburne follows a trail narrowed by tunnel vision and vanishing alternatives. As detectives chase certainty over truth, witnesses falter, leads evaporate, and a case emerges driven more by obsession than evidence.
To learn more and get involved, visit:
Earwitness is a production of Lava for Good™ Podcasts in association with Signal Co. No1.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
00:00:10
Speaker 1: Last time on ear witness, I believe I.
00:00:14
Speaker 2: Got a phone call from someone in the room saying they heard gunshots.
00:00:18
Speaker 3: Boom, small caliber gun.
00:00:20
Speaker 4: They want a big caliber boom.
00:00:23
Speaker 5: About the second time myself been with them, that was a gun.
00:00:27
Speaker 3: When you got a definite share of killed over here. It's high profile and people are expecting things out here.
00:00:38
Speaker 6: Tavarra Junica. I remember he was pushing a Drinka's four in the wheelchair.
00:00:42
Speaker 1: They came together.
00:00:43
Speaker 2: I had saw too far.
00:00:45
Speaker 1: Was pushing Adrika's in the club.
00:00:49
Speaker 7: Me and one of my girlfriends they had named Katanya, Me and hr and two two guys are supposed to hook.
00:00:57
Speaker 8: Up that night.
00:00:59
Speaker 7: One is twenty one.
00:01:01
Speaker 8: They called him Dre. He's in a wheelchair.
00:01:04
Speaker 3: Not only do you want somebody in custody? The captain is telling in the liew townt we need to get this done. The sheriff is telling the captain, we need to get this done.
00:01:13
Speaker 9: I think he taking hand.
00:01:16
Speaker 8: How was there.
00:01:18
Speaker 3: And we went there?
00:01:20
Speaker 10: So what she's saying?
00:01:21
Speaker 3: She was there and I was there.
00:01:23
Speaker 8: That's a life, that's a lot. That's a shame.
00:01:38
Speaker 1: When police come looking for ar dregas Ford, his mom calls Richard Jeffy, who had helped them in the past.
00:01:46
Speaker 11: Ar Dregas was in a wheelchair, as you know, and his mother brought him over to the lions Den to the Sheriff's department.
00:01:56
Speaker 1: Jeffy's a trial lawyer, and he looks like one, but not in a slick way. He's slender in a rumpled suit with gray hair and glasses. The day Ardregas went to the Sheriff's office for questioning. Jaffy is just beginning a trial in a different case, but before he goes to court that day, he gets a phone call from the Sheriff's office.
00:02:21
Speaker 11: I was called by a Deputy Blanton and he said, I heard that you were representing Ardregas Ford and I went, yes, I was just contacted by the family, but I don't know anything about the case. And he said, well, look, he's just a witness. I mean, he just knows stuff. And I knew Deputy Blanton, and I believed if he had information involving a police shooting, I wanted to help, and Ardregus did too, and against my best judgment, I allowed Ardragas to be interviewed by and several other Jefferson County detectives.
00:03:06
Speaker 1: So our Dregus is questioned alone while his attorney, Jaffe, heads to the courthouse.
00:03:14
Speaker 11: Perhaps around four thirty or five when we broke, I found out that Ardregis was still there, so he'd been there all day, like maybe nine hours, and I was extremely distraught, so I hurried over there. It was just across the street, and when I got into the very large room, it was buzzing with detectives and police officers, and you could feel the tension was It was enormous amount of tension.
00:03:46
Speaker 1: There in the crowd of police officers and detectives. Jaffe notices Jefferson County's district attorney, a man named David Barber. He's in charge of all state prosecutions in Alabama's law or just jurisdiction, and is working with police in the Deputy Hardy murder investigation. When Jeffie sees Barber, he walks over to him and.
00:04:10
Speaker 11: I said, what's going on with our Dragus And David said, well, we know he was there and he's not telling us the truth, so we're going to charge him. He can either be a witness or a defendant. I said, well, what are you saying, and he said, just that witness are defendant.
00:04:29
Speaker 8: It's his choice.
00:04:31
Speaker 1: The choice detectives are giving our dragis either he gives them information about Hardy's murder or he'll be charged with a crime.
00:04:42
Speaker 11: If I had any idea that they thought he was there, I nor any lawyer would allow their client in any case, especially we're a definitely case. It's being interviewed by law enforcement. They just wouldn't allow it. Frankly, I felt a little inept and a little foolish, as well as a little deceived. And I said, well, what can I do to help? And he said, we'll go in there and get him to tell the truth. And I said, well, then you're going to have to give him immunity.
00:05:14
Speaker 1: According to Jeffy, David Barber offers ar Dregas immunity from prosecution in exchange for naming to Forrest as the shooter. Jeffy says, Barber hand writes the immunity agreement on a piece of paper and gives it to him.
00:05:30
Speaker 11: David's word was good with me. And I walked into a little office where Ardregas was in his wheelchair sitting there. Didn't look happy, certainly, wasn't happy with me at all, and I said, what's going on? And he said they were screaming at me, and they made me tell the story over and over and over again, and even tell it backwards. And I said, well, this is an immunity agreement. Maybe we should talk about it. And he reads it and he said, said, so they want me to lie. He said, look, mister Jaffy, I wasn't there, and I've got a dozen or more alibi witnesses that will testify to that I know nothing about it. Zero. I said, okay, well they think that you're not a shooter, but you were there, and they think to Forrest is the shooter. And he looked at me and he said, listen, I'm not going to lie for anybody. To Forrest and I are close, but we're not that close. He's not family. I would happy to give to Forrest up in a heartbeat, except it would be a lie. And I'm not gonna lie. That never happens, even on a theft case, even on a possession of marijuana case, even on a hubcap case. Everybody flips sadly enough to save themselves. Yeah, he said, no way, not gonna lie. I said, all right, well they're going to take you to jail. They're going to wheel you to jail, and they're going to charge you with capital murder, which is death penalty offense. And he goes, I wasn't there. Tell him to take me to jail, and they did.
00:07:19
Speaker 1: The next day, the Jefferson County Sheriff's Office announces formal charges in the murder of Deputy Bill Hardy.
00:07:27
Speaker 4: Charged with capital murder of a law enforcement officer our twenty two year old tor Forrest Johnson, twenty one year old are Dragis Ford, twenty three year old Ohman Berry, and twenty one year old Quinn Tes Wilson. They are held without bond.
00:07:43
Speaker 1: All four people charged with capital murder are young black men. Based on the changing stories of Yolanda Chambers, detectives believe at least six people were in the parking lot behind the hotel when Hardy was Shotlanda and Latanya to Forrest and Ardregis, and the two other people Yolanda identified in photos, Omar Barry and Quintez Wilson. The headline and the Birmingham News reads police confident they got right men and deputy slaying sounds like an open and shut investigation, but pull back the curtain or in this case, open up the investigative file and the inner workings tell a different story.
00:08:54
Speaker 7: Do you he my man?
00:09:00
Speaker 8: It is.
00:09:02
Speaker 12: Lab hads ma be sorrow dep re list.
00:09:17
Speaker 7: In this bas both tears.
00:09:25
Speaker 12: I want to see.
00:09:29
Speaker 7: Revelation. I want to know who you A'm retional in thisspiration to the wood. Who's holding? Start to the Who's holding?
00:10:06
Speaker 1: I'm Beth Shelburn. This is ear witness Chapter four, Witness or defendant the tactic the state uses with Ardregis telling him he can either be a witness or a defendant. Detective Tony Richardson repeats it over and over during Deputy Hardy's murder investigation.
00:10:29
Speaker 8: You are in a position now to be one of two things.
00:10:32
Speaker 9: Okay, you can either be a witness or.
00:10:36
Speaker 8: You can be a defendant. You know, you can either be a witness or you can be a defendant.
00:10:40
Speaker 9: Can only be either a witness or you can be a defendant. Okay, it's your choice, you make it. You tell me what you want to do.
00:10:50
Speaker 1: One of the people Tony Richardson uses this tactic on is Yolanda Chamber's friend Latanya Henderson, who is in the car with DeForest Ardregis and Yolanda, the night Deputy Hardy was killed.
00:11:04
Speaker 9: Datanya, I am working a homicide, okay, And in working this homicide, people have choices. It's choice whether you want to be a witness or you want to be a defendant.
00:11:15
Speaker 1: Latanya is sixteen years old. She's in high school and lives with her mother and brother. And as she's questioned about the knight of the murder, she's alone in the room with detectives, no lawyer, no parent present.
00:11:31
Speaker 8: I'm not saying anything to entice you to say something.
00:11:36
Speaker 9: You tell me what was the truth, and you tell me that's the truth, and I'm gonna take it like that.
00:11:40
Speaker 8: But I do want you to know that some people are going to be witnesses. Some are going to be defendants. Defendants going to jail. Okay.
00:11:47
Speaker 1: Now, after giving Latania this choice, Detective Richardson asks her where she was that night?
00:11:54
Speaker 9: Were you at NIA or around at hotel when this officer was shot?
00:12:00
Speaker 8: No, sir, okay, And you've never been there before. No, I haven't.
00:12:05
Speaker 9: And you have no independent knowledge of what happened to this office.
00:12:09
Speaker 8: No I haven't.
00:12:11
Speaker 1: Despite being told she's a suspect and a murder Latania does not change her story, but she also doesn't seem to understand the rules of the game detectives are playing. She asks Detective Richardson to explain, that's a.
00:12:26
Speaker 8: Question, is defendent of someone's charged with the crime? Well? No, no, no, no, defendant?
00:12:35
Speaker 13: No?
00:12:35
Speaker 8: All right, so you want to.
00:12:37
Speaker 1: Be Latanya has to ask what it means to be a defendant, then says she doesn't want to be charged with the crime. At one point, Richardson stops the tape like he's done in Yolanda's interviews, and restarts it after a five minute break.
00:12:55
Speaker 9: You know what the crown starney isn't Would you know it if you saw it?
00:12:58
Speaker 14: No?
00:12:58
Speaker 8: I have never seen it. I have nothing.
00:13:00
Speaker 9: Were you in any hotel parking lot that night where shots were fire?
00:13:05
Speaker 8: You know?
00:13:05
Speaker 9: Okay, this sort of Tony rich and justin kind of shares shot at the time, it's three fifty pm.
00:13:11
Speaker 8: This is going to conclude this interview.
00:13:17
Speaker 1: In a lot of the interviews that you did in this case, you and Sergeant Salter presented a choice. You can be a witness or you can be a defendant. Tell me about presenting that to somebody that you're interviewing. That seems like a lot of pressure to put on someone.
00:13:36
Speaker 3: Well, at certain times you have to put pressure on somebody.
00:13:38
Speaker 8: That's just a that's just a strategy. That's that's just an.
00:13:41
Speaker 3: Investigative too, that's that.
00:13:43
Speaker 8: That's nothing.
00:13:44
Speaker 3: So I look at you and I say, look, you can either be a witness.
00:13:49
Speaker 8: Or you can be a defendant. It's up to you. And that's the truth.
00:13:53
Speaker 1: What if the person is neither a witness nor a defendant in the case, though.
00:13:59
Speaker 3: Well, sometimes you say that trying to determine if they are witness or defendant, you know, particularly if you don't know, and if they continue to maintain I know nothing, at some point I'm gonna say, okay, I got you.
00:14:14
Speaker 1: But for Latania, there was never an okay, I got you from investigators. Even though she explains she doesn't know anything about the crime, detectives follow through with their threat and make her a defendant. One month after Tony Richardson questions Latania, the state charges her with hindering prosecution in Alabama. That's a felony at sixteen years old. Police take Latania Henderson to adult jail, where she stays for five months.
00:14:57
Speaker 15: You know, Latania Henderson. I mean, even if she had been there. Yeah, even Iflanda's story was true.
00:15:06
Speaker 8: What she had defendant on, you know, what has she done?
00:15:11
Speaker 1: This is Derek Drennan, a lawyer who worked with Richard Jeffy in representing Ardregis.
00:15:17
Speaker 15: Ford, and I don't know. I think they charged with hindering prosecution, maybe because because basically she wasn't telling the lies that Yolanda was telling.
00:15:33
Speaker 1: A few years later, Latania says that she was hysterical when they took her to jail, desperate to get detectives to believe her. She says that she suffered from stress and lost too much weight. I really wanted to talk to Latanya to hear how this experience shaped her, and we tried for months to track her down, looking on doors, calling possible numbers, combing social media, but we never could connect. I was able to talk to her uncle, Herman Henderson, a pastor in Birmingham. He told me Latania and Yolanda had been friends since they were babies, but this case ended their friendship and Latanya was scarred by the entire experience. Her trust in other people eroded. Yolanda Chambers and Latanya Henderson made different choices when faced with threats from police. There's a damned if you do, damned if you don't dynamic and how they were each impacted. Yolanda became a witness for detectives, avoiding jail time during Hardy's murder investigation, but entered a pattern of exploitation that may have led to her murder. Latanya became a defendant for telling the truth. She didn't have any information to give, and detectives sent her to jail. Both Yolanda and Latanya ended up traumatized and hurt. And as I think through how detectives treated these witnesses and the suspects of Harty's murder, I keep coming back to this one thing that Tony Richardson.
00:17:27
Speaker 3: Said, The best thing that a person probably can do for themselves that's suspected of a crime is do not talk to the bout pace period.
00:17:38
Speaker 1: Now that's really interesting coming from a retired detective.
00:17:41
Speaker 8: But that's the truth.
00:18:06
Speaker 1: Detectives are moving ahead with the theory of the crime that Yolanda Chambers gives them and her interrogations, even though the theory isn't supported by what hotel witnesses saw and heard the night of the murder. So what were detectives missing, what evidence was available? And was there anything else they should have looked at but didn't because they decided to stick with Yolanda as their key witness. Let's back up to the moment Hardy was shot. We know officers began their investigation by talking to hotel guests actual confirmed witnesses who were staying at the Crown Sterling Suites. Several people heard the shots and looked out their window right after it happened, like Marshal Kelly Cummings the Keebler Cookie Guy.
00:18:59
Speaker 10: Following the interview with mister Marshall Kelly Cummings, mitter Collens is in polled by Kedler.
00:19:07
Speaker 1: This interview was recorded about two and a half hours after Hardy was shot. Cummings says he saw someone get into a car and drive away from the hotel right after he heard the shots fired.
00:19:21
Speaker 8: Immediately seen the savend shot wrung out.
00:19:23
Speaker 3: I pulled the cartain back and looked out and that's when I saw the car down below me.
00:19:29
Speaker 8: I saw the a person.
00:19:33
Speaker 1: Cummings says he saw the person close the driver's side door.
00:19:38
Speaker 8: I looked at closing witch door the driver shot.
00:19:42
Speaker 1: He saw a copper colored or light brown car with a vinyl top, slowly back out of the parking spot and drive away with the headlights off.
00:19:53
Speaker 8: But you think it was a dark copper or like browd, Yes, sir.
00:19:58
Speaker 1: And there was another witness in a different hotel room who also looked out his window after he heard the shots.
00:20:06
Speaker 8: All right, we heard a shot. I jumped up.
00:20:09
Speaker 14: I actually a doorged in my head out.
00:20:12
Speaker 1: The night of the murder, Leon Calvin was staying in room six' eleven with his Wife. Annie the two of them were in. Bed he was WATCHING tv and she was reading the. Newspaper they heard the first shot And leon Told annie he thought it was a car. Backfiring he heard a.
00:20:31
Speaker 8: Shot. Bang tell me how long after is?
00:20:35
Speaker 7: It?
00:20:35
Speaker 9: Bang?
00:20:37
Speaker 8: Bang, okay so Just i'll second or so.
00:20:41
Speaker 1: Yeah after the second, Shot calvin went to the window to see what was going.
00:20:46
Speaker 16: On seeing a.
00:20:48
Speaker 3: Car down by the bag of the, motel.
00:20:52
Speaker 8: He walked up, beside came round in front of the car and got in the.
00:20:56
Speaker 1: Car calvin's description of the car and what the car did is it left the parking lot matches the details given By Marshall.
00:21:05
Speaker 13: CUMMINGS i told him it was there was a dog colored gold all brown with a kind of maroon looking top with a sun.
00:21:14
Speaker 1: Roping Both cummings And calvin say the car was a four door, brown gold or copper sedan with a maroon. Top that's so. Specific they both say it was the only car leaving the parking lot right after shots were. Fired what these witnesses saw doesn't match the theory of the, murder detectives go with. Manicolo ardregis describes his car to detectives the day he's. Arrested he was driving a two door black nineteen seventy One Monte. Carlo we'll call it Blood. End he had installed Flow master, mufflers so it made a, loud rumbling.
00:22:04
Speaker 17: SOUND i got like flow.
00:22:06
Speaker 8: Mass you got these Floor masters?
00:22:09
Speaker 1: Loud, okay people could Hear ardregas's car coming from blocks away To forest tells detectives that when they picked Up, latanya they actually waited for her in an alley because they didn't want to wake up the entire. House But calvin And cummings say that the light brown or copper colored car quietly drove out of the parking, lot and there's an even bigger discrepancy not.
00:22:40
Speaker 8: Do i'll grove a door on.
00:22:42
Speaker 1: Over the driver's side door On ardregas's very loud Black Monte carlo was. Broken it did not, open Ar dregas and to forst tell this to Detectives Dreda.
00:22:59
Speaker 8: Domo At Duel delt the driver doom went.
00:23:03
Speaker 1: Off investigators impounded Are dregis's car and confirmed the driver's side door didn't. Open Detective Tony richardson would later testify to, this but Both calvin And cummings say that someone got in the driver's side of the car and quietly drove.
00:23:23
Speaker 3: AWAY i seen.
00:23:25
Speaker 8: Him he walked from the patent's side round in front of the car to the driver side the.
00:23:31
Speaker 1: Gadion there were other guests at the hotel who spotted cars leaving the area around this, time but their descriptions were all. Different the only consistent descriptions of the getaway car came From cummings And, calvin two people who went to their hotel room windows after hearing shots and looked down into the parking. Lot the investigative file shows that police tried to find the car seen By calvin In, cummings But Tony richardson would eventually tell a grand jury the search was a wild goose, chase and that the car didn't. Exist and there's something even more significant about this other hotel, Witness Leon. Calvin he gives police a basic description of the. Man he saw five foot, ten medium build who got into the car and drove.
00:24:36
Speaker 9: Away, yeah a black and white driver shirt and it looked like he had count.
00:24:44
Speaker 8: Be catty the.
00:24:46
Speaker 1: Summer calvin describes the man as wearing a black and white shirt and khaki or cream. Pants this is the only physical description given of a potential, suspect but detectives decide That calvin isn't a, Witness he's a. Defendant AS i dig, DEEPER i learn That Detective Tony richardson And Leon colvin are, cousins and in the first week of the, Investigation richardson decides That colvin is hiding. Something we have.
00:25:21
Speaker 8: Talked with several.
00:25:22
Speaker 9: People people we have talked to have have indicated that you do know.
00:25:27
Speaker 1: More calvin gives detectives multiple statements about what he heard and, saw And Tony richardson interrogates him for hours about his movements inside the hotel the night of the, murder insisting That calvin was.
00:25:43
Speaker 9: Involved if you tell us one thing and it's not. Accurate if we know that you know, different and you can be charged with the. Crime, okay just show you a.
00:25:56
Speaker 1: Note Tony richardson Shows Yolanda chambers four photo of possible. Suspects yolanda picks out the photo Of Leon calvin and says he was involved in the alleged drug deal behind the hotel When hardy was.
00:26:10
Speaker 9: Killed loud of that, light, upset you were standing right there when the man was.
00:26:15
Speaker 1: Shot Leon calvin is charged with hindering prosecution and taken to.
00:26:22
Speaker 14: Jail, well my.
00:26:24
Speaker 4: Most, HEY i aint did did?
00:26:26
Speaker 9: HIM i ain't did?
00:26:27
Speaker 3: NONE i did? HIM i did did?
00:26:30
Speaker 10: HIM i did.
00:26:32
Speaker 1: Him police press ahead With ardregis into forrest as two of their main, suspects even though there is no record of any hotel witness describing a loud two door Black Bonnie carlo leaving the scene or a man in a. Wheelchair there's another clue in the file that jumps out at. ME a police report from a day after the murder states that a hotel worker Named jerry McDaniel told detectives that he Saw Deputy hardy arguing with a group of young black men who had been running around inside the, hotel especially the sixth. Floor there's even a description of one of these young, men six feet, tall, slim wearing a, dark baggy basketball jersey with the number thirty three on. It WHEN i first read, THIS i was, LIKE whoa What this information seems super. Relevant hardy was arguing with the group of people just hours before he was. Murdered jerry McDaniel would later testify in court that he Saw hardy having this loud argument with the group of young men around TEN, pm and that he Saw hardy again before he left for the night around eleven. Thirty McDaniel Said hardy was standing at the back door of the, hotel propping it open with his. Foot he also spotted the same group of young men outside in the back parking lot as he left work to go. Home he said that after the, Confrontation hardy seemed, mad SAYING i ain't never seen him like that. Before but detectives never identified the young men and later say their interview With jerry McDaniel never led to any more. EVIDENCE i want to pursue. This If jerry McDaniel is still, around maybe he can give us some new information about those last hours Of hardy's, life something about the young men he saw arguing With, hardy some new nugget to breathe life into this. Case i'm looking, for, Mister jerry, McDaniel.
00:29:05
Speaker 14: Is that?
00:29:05
Speaker 8: You thank you so.
00:29:08
Speaker 1: Much jerry McDaniel is retired in his seventies and lives in a small green Shake shingle, bungalow the same house he's lived in his entire adult. Life we talk on his porch and he Remembers hardy's murder conversation with.
00:29:25
Speaker 10: Anybody, Yeah, Coase i'm moving around SO i see. Everything i've become total ashn and. Stuff you, know there's been a lot of stuff going on that.
00:29:33
Speaker 3: Hotel.
00:29:34
Speaker 1: Dogs McDaniel also remembers Seeing hardy argue with the group of young men inside the. HOTEL i, mean did it seem Like Deputy hardy knew those?
00:29:45
Speaker 8: PEOPLE i don't.
00:29:46
Speaker 10: Know you might have known him cause he something he he wanted something they had or something they didn't give him SOMETHING i don't what it.
00:29:56
Speaker 1: Was and about an hour and a half, later when he ended his shift and left the, building he passed By, hardy who was standing at the hotel's back. Door do you remember look exactly what you.
00:30:09
Speaker 10: Saw, yeah he was standing at the back door back there to the, right and and it was a CAR i did WHEN i, left you, know read, there read dead to back by what a dark.
00:30:21
Speaker 1: Bed but that's pretty much all he. Remembers had police aggressively pursued this, lead they might have gotten. Somewhere but, now decades, later McDaniel can no longer recall any other specific details about the car or anything else from that. Night whatever he, saw whoever those young men, were that potential big lead has, faded likely impossible to. Recover after reading through hundreds of pages of, Reports there's a question that still sticks with. Me why Did Deputy hardy leave the hotel atrium where he was drinking coffee and smoking a cigarette to go out the back door to the parking lot without his radio and then.
00:31:34
Speaker 16: Ute every hour on the hour or so or every hour and a, half he would do a drive around the premises to check out the perimeter of the.
00:31:45
Speaker 1: Hotel according To Barry, rushikov the hotel desk, Clerk hardy's routine was to walk around inside the hotel when he was making his, rounds but when he checked around the outside of the, hotel he usually drove around the property in his car right after the. Crime the sheriff tells reporters That Deputy hardy may have been investigating something, suspicious maybe a drug. Deal but If hardy went outside to check something behind the, hotel why would he leave his two way radio on the table. Inside barry talked to detectives just five hours after the. Murder he told them about how weird this detail seemed to.
00:32:31
Speaker 15: Him tell me what she thought was unusual about?
00:32:35
Speaker 8: Him not in the wont to tell?
00:32:37
Speaker 2: Me Offer, hardy if he got, out he always put the radio in his back, pocket and if he was, smoking he never would leave us a. Cigarette, really he would always walk around with. It for him to have left both the radio and a cigarette was extremely unlike, him completely unlike.
00:32:55
Speaker 1: Him hardy had over two decades of experience as a law enforcement. Officer leaving his radio behind seems out of, character and he also left his cigarette. Burning is it possible that he was expecting to go outside, quickly maybe to meet, someone and that's why he left them. Behind is it possible That hardy knew his? KILLER i tried to look into. This there is a file containing records of the calls that police received from the special tip line set up for the, case AND i found eight different tips urging detectives to look Into hardy's personal. Life these tips suggest that Someone hardy knew might be connected to his. MURDER i Asked Detective Tony richardson about. This is there anything that you recall y'all investigating as far as that, GOES.
00:33:57
Speaker 3: I don't recall, that recall us investigating. Anything i'll say right now THAT i wouldn't. HAVE i, Mean i'm investigating the police officers is. Dead he's been shot and. Killed it don't matter what he. Did if somebody walked up to him and shot him like.
00:34:15
Speaker 1: That my Producer mara presses.
00:34:19
Speaker 9: Him like the first thing to, me IF i hear that somebody has, KILLED i would look at their life for a motive instead of assuming that it was.
00:34:27
Speaker 8: Random is that not where you would? Start you? KNOW i can explain like, This.
00:34:39
Speaker 3: When hardy was, shot he was in, uniform working a part time security, job still a serfs.
00:34:48
Speaker 8: Deputy now doing his, job and he was shot and.
00:34:55
Speaker 13: Killed, okay if he he had been.
00:35:02
Speaker 8: At home.
00:35:05
Speaker 3: In his, pajamas.
00:35:09
Speaker 8: Shot and kill.
00:35:12
Speaker 13: In, bed.
00:35:15
Speaker 8: We would have looked at him because that's what you.
00:35:19
Speaker 1: Do Because Deputy hardy was a police officer and was killed in, uniform not in his own bed wearing, Pajamas Detective richardson says he wouldn't have looked into people that Knew. Hardy, Instead richardson repeats the theory That hardy walked up on a drug deal that he wasn't supposed to see and that's why he was. Killed an insider THAT i talked, to a retired bailiff who worked In Jefferson county When Deputy hardy was, murdered told me that this theory about a police officer interrupting a drug, deal it's like a default explanation when detectives don't have any idea what. Happened the sheriff first mentioned the scenario hours after the, murder and the media ran with. It the only eventual evidence to support this theory the always changing statements From Yolanda. Chambers detectives not only missed potential promising, leads they also ignored facts that could have ruled out To Forrest johnson and Ardregas ford as. Suspects some of the people who were with To forest And ardregas At tea's place remember learning about their arrests from the media coverage the week after the.
00:37:06
Speaker 9: Murder WHEN i read it in the, PAPER i saw To forest name AND i was, like, well.
00:37:11
Speaker 16: How did he do?
00:37:12
Speaker 8: It we was At tease the you know that.
00:37:14
Speaker 1: Night Can Yarra pickett was At teas at the same Time Deputy hardy was. Killed she was out celebrating with her Sister, deidre who had just recovered from, surgery and To forrest gave her name to, police a female And.
00:37:30
Speaker 14: Galla keenan kend.
00:37:33
Speaker 1: K he told them to find a girl named ken that he was hanging out with At, teas but they never called or knocked on her.
00:37:42
Speaker 3: DOOR i never went to the police or anything BECAUSE i was on the age at the.
00:37:47
Speaker 8: Time, YEAH i mean.
00:37:49
Speaker 2: That how old were?
00:37:49
Speaker 14: YOU i THINK i was.
00:37:50
Speaker 9: Twenty it was ninety five twenty In.
00:37:53
Speaker 1: April, Yes so did they not check id's at the club or did y'all have fake? Id's they had a FAKE. Id so that made you not want to go to police because you didn't want to go worn't supposed to be.
00:38:03
Speaker 8: There, YEAH i didn't want to go.
00:38:05
Speaker 1: There kenyara was scared that she would end up in jail if she went to, POLICE.
00:38:12
Speaker 6: I saw on the news That Tfara johnson had been picked up for that murder Of Officer. HARDY i, said wait a, minute there's no, WAY i, SAID i saw to.
00:38:22
Speaker 1: Fire Stanley chandler is another person who saw To forrest And ardregis At tea's place at the Time Deputy hardy was. Murdered stanley is A Us marine and he was also hesitant to get.
00:38:36
Speaker 5: Involved you know you twenty, FIVE i.
00:38:38
Speaker 6: Just cannot walk and down to count of jails say, HEY i saw that guy at the club that night at that. Time you, know so no one never contacted, me and SO i felt like If farres needed, me that someone would reach. OUT i had no knowledge of what to.
00:38:53
Speaker 1: Do Are dregas and To forrest told police about multiple people they were with At, tease the bartender who remade a weak, drink the guy who sold To forest a hot dog outside the, club and the girls they chatted with in the parking. Lot To forrest also Gave Tony richardson the names and phone numbers of friends he remembered seeing inside the.
00:39:19
Speaker 14: Club y feed man name Is queasy Were.
00:39:23
Speaker 1: Queasy Including queisi And Mama.
00:39:26
Speaker 3: Catay with one Fname Mama cat.
00:39:31
Speaker 8: And number seven eighty Five forest, right? Okay.
00:39:37
Speaker 5: Uh The forest couldn't give us any names other than nicknames or maybe a first.
00:39:42
Speaker 8: Name there was no way that we could find a.
00:39:45
Speaker 5: Witness but we sat and we, waited hoping that you know who don't know that The forest is in jail for this, crime maybe they'll come. Forward not a single one nobody came forward to, say, hey you got the wrong guy he was he was at the.
00:40:04
Speaker 1: Club not a single person came forward to say To forrest was At tea's place the night of the. Murder After Tony richardson tells me, THIS i look through the investigative file to double check.
00:40:20
Speaker 14: This Sergeant Tony richardson J Just County sheriff's. OFFICE i am on the phone with Bar betta and that SPELLED BA R B E t t A, hunt also known As Mama. Cat do you remember Where Taforest johnson was on the night Of july to eighteenth or the morning Of july to, nineteen IS i?
00:40:42
Speaker 11: Too?
00:40:42
Speaker 14: Okay can you tell me?
00:40:43
Speaker 1: Where right there in the folder of recorded police, INTERVIEWS i find That Detective richardson did talk with an alibi witness he Called mama cat about a month after the. Murder, WELL i saw him a teas.
00:40:59
Speaker 14: Place you saw Me tea's. Place, YES i was with my Friend Belanique. Sanders Belanique. Sanders, oh, okay all, RIGHT i am on the phone With Bello Nique. Sanders felaanick is also known As queasy and her home phone numbers seven.
00:41:14
Speaker 1: Eighty on the same, Day Detective richardson talked To, velaanique also known As. Queasy she told him she sow To forrest And ardregas Inside tease between ELEVEN pm and one. THIRTY. Am, okay all.
00:41:30
Speaker 14: Right is there any particular reason that you remember the time that they got, there any time that they.
00:41:34
Speaker 3: Left, yes the time that they got, there my friend By Bella, hunt her beeper had went, out AND i remember her telling me.
00:41:42
Speaker 1: What time it.
00:41:43
Speaker 14: Was, okay what about the time they?
00:41:46
Speaker 1: Left the time they, left my beeper went.
00:41:49
Speaker 14: Out, okay my sister was paiding me to tell me to come.
00:41:52
Speaker 10: Home uh, Huh that's WHY i remember the.
00:41:55
Speaker 14: Time, okay all right.
00:41:58
Speaker 1: NOW i Interviewed Tony richardson twenty seven years after this. INVESTIGATION i guess it's possible that he just doesn't remember speaking With Mama cat And. Quisi so AFTER i found these phone, CALLS i went back to ask him about. It there were alibi witnesses on the record that told Y'ALL i saw them At tea's. Place now whatever went into not believing them as not in any files that we've been able to.
00:42:30
Speaker 5: Access, well SINCE i don't know.
00:42:34
Speaker 3: Who this witness, WAS i can't remember. THEM i can't remember what they. Said, UH i can't really tell you IF i believe them or. Not probably, Not probably.
00:42:47
Speaker 1: Not but cops have a lot of discretion as far as that goes right in believers believing alibi witnesses or not believing alibi.
00:42:57
Speaker 17: Witnesses well you, HAVE i, mean you can believe but disbelieve. Anybody but if someone tells you something that either you need to check out or check, further or tells you something that could possibly have, happened you have an obligation to either prove or disprove that.
00:43:19
Speaker 8: You have that.
00:43:20
Speaker 1: Obligation but speaking With Mama cat And, quisi hearing them corroborate To forrest And ardregis's, alibi it wasn't enough for detectives to question their own theory of the. Crime the pressure to put someone on trial for Killing Deputy hardy isn't letting. Up but fifteen months after the, crime the judge dismisses capital murder charges against two of their main, Suspects Omar berry And Quintez. Wilson Yolanda chambers changes her story to say they weren't involved in the. Murder they also have alibis and police believe, them so detectives let them. Go To forrest And ardregas are now the only two suspects charged With Deputy hardy's, murder But wright is detective zero in On, ardregas and To, forest they run into a big. Problem two weeks after she Says Omar berry And Quintez wilson have nothing to do with the, Crime Yolanda chambers pivots and says under oath that she's made up the entire story about the. Murder she recants all of her, testimony now saying To forrest And ardregas also had nothing.
00:44:58
Speaker 7: To do with the.
00:44:58
Speaker 3: Murder evidence, wise we didn't have virtually, well we had virtually no.
00:45:05
Speaker 13: Evidence we had the word of a fifteen year old who told, lies a lot of.
00:45:17
Speaker 16: LIES i lie, out lie out.
00:45:19
Speaker 3: Lie we had this table empty wasn't nothing on, it and we were still trying to try that, case and we were, like, man what we gonna.
00:45:28
Speaker 8: Do how we're gonna win?
00:45:28
Speaker 1: This but investigators have someone, else someone they hadn't initially, believed someone who will become the state's new star witness against To Forrest.
00:45:41
Speaker 17: Johnson bally us walking that door and stand up on this table and say what she.
00:45:48
Speaker 8: Said we got a full. Table now we got all the evidence we.
00:45:53
Speaker 1: Need that's next. Time Ear witness is a production Of lava For Good podcasts in association With Signal Company Number. One executive producers Are Jason, Flomm Jeff, Kempler Kevin, wardis and Me Beth. Shelburn the investigative reporting for this series was done By me AND maraa. McNamara producers ARE maraa, McNamara Hannah bial And Jackie. Pauley Kara kornhaber is our senior. Producer Britt spangler is our sound. Designer additional story editing From Marie, sutton fact check help From Katherine, newhan and special thanks to To Forrest johnson's legal defense. Team you can follow the show On, instagram, TikTok, facebook And twitter At lava For Good to see behind the scenes content from our, Investigation Visit lava For good dot, com slash earwitness
Speaker 1: Last time on ear witness, I believe I.
00:00:14
Speaker 2: Got a phone call from someone in the room saying they heard gunshots.
00:00:18
Speaker 3: Boom, small caliber gun.
00:00:20
Speaker 4: They want a big caliber boom.
00:00:23
Speaker 5: About the second time myself been with them, that was a gun.
00:00:27
Speaker 3: When you got a definite share of killed over here. It's high profile and people are expecting things out here.
00:00:38
Speaker 6: Tavarra Junica. I remember he was pushing a Drinka's four in the wheelchair.
00:00:42
Speaker 1: They came together.
00:00:43
Speaker 2: I had saw too far.
00:00:45
Speaker 1: Was pushing Adrika's in the club.
00:00:49
Speaker 7: Me and one of my girlfriends they had named Katanya, Me and hr and two two guys are supposed to hook.
00:00:57
Speaker 8: Up that night.
00:00:59
Speaker 7: One is twenty one.
00:01:01
Speaker 8: They called him Dre. He's in a wheelchair.
00:01:04
Speaker 3: Not only do you want somebody in custody? The captain is telling in the liew townt we need to get this done. The sheriff is telling the captain, we need to get this done.
00:01:13
Speaker 9: I think he taking hand.
00:01:16
Speaker 8: How was there.
00:01:18
Speaker 3: And we went there?
00:01:20
Speaker 10: So what she's saying?
00:01:21
Speaker 3: She was there and I was there.
00:01:23
Speaker 8: That's a life, that's a lot. That's a shame.
00:01:38
Speaker 1: When police come looking for ar dregas Ford, his mom calls Richard Jeffy, who had helped them in the past.
00:01:46
Speaker 11: Ar Dregas was in a wheelchair, as you know, and his mother brought him over to the lions Den to the Sheriff's department.
00:01:56
Speaker 1: Jeffy's a trial lawyer, and he looks like one, but not in a slick way. He's slender in a rumpled suit with gray hair and glasses. The day Ardregas went to the Sheriff's office for questioning. Jaffy is just beginning a trial in a different case, but before he goes to court that day, he gets a phone call from the Sheriff's office.
00:02:21
Speaker 11: I was called by a Deputy Blanton and he said, I heard that you were representing Ardregas Ford and I went, yes, I was just contacted by the family, but I don't know anything about the case. And he said, well, look, he's just a witness. I mean, he just knows stuff. And I knew Deputy Blanton, and I believed if he had information involving a police shooting, I wanted to help, and Ardregus did too, and against my best judgment, I allowed Ardragas to be interviewed by and several other Jefferson County detectives.
00:03:06
Speaker 1: So our Dregus is questioned alone while his attorney, Jaffe, heads to the courthouse.
00:03:14
Speaker 11: Perhaps around four thirty or five when we broke, I found out that Ardregis was still there, so he'd been there all day, like maybe nine hours, and I was extremely distraught, so I hurried over there. It was just across the street, and when I got into the very large room, it was buzzing with detectives and police officers, and you could feel the tension was It was enormous amount of tension.
00:03:46
Speaker 1: There in the crowd of police officers and detectives. Jaffe notices Jefferson County's district attorney, a man named David Barber. He's in charge of all state prosecutions in Alabama's law or just jurisdiction, and is working with police in the Deputy Hardy murder investigation. When Jeffie sees Barber, he walks over to him and.
00:04:10
Speaker 11: I said, what's going on with our Dragus And David said, well, we know he was there and he's not telling us the truth, so we're going to charge him. He can either be a witness or a defendant. I said, well, what are you saying, and he said, just that witness are defendant.
00:04:29
Speaker 8: It's his choice.
00:04:31
Speaker 1: The choice detectives are giving our dragis either he gives them information about Hardy's murder or he'll be charged with a crime.
00:04:42
Speaker 11: If I had any idea that they thought he was there, I nor any lawyer would allow their client in any case, especially we're a definitely case. It's being interviewed by law enforcement. They just wouldn't allow it. Frankly, I felt a little inept and a little foolish, as well as a little deceived. And I said, well, what can I do to help? And he said, we'll go in there and get him to tell the truth. And I said, well, then you're going to have to give him immunity.
00:05:14
Speaker 1: According to Jeffy, David Barber offers ar Dregas immunity from prosecution in exchange for naming to Forrest as the shooter. Jeffy says, Barber hand writes the immunity agreement on a piece of paper and gives it to him.
00:05:30
Speaker 11: David's word was good with me. And I walked into a little office where Ardregas was in his wheelchair sitting there. Didn't look happy, certainly, wasn't happy with me at all, and I said, what's going on? And he said they were screaming at me, and they made me tell the story over and over and over again, and even tell it backwards. And I said, well, this is an immunity agreement. Maybe we should talk about it. And he reads it and he said, said, so they want me to lie. He said, look, mister Jaffy, I wasn't there, and I've got a dozen or more alibi witnesses that will testify to that I know nothing about it. Zero. I said, okay, well they think that you're not a shooter, but you were there, and they think to Forrest is the shooter. And he looked at me and he said, listen, I'm not going to lie for anybody. To Forrest and I are close, but we're not that close. He's not family. I would happy to give to Forrest up in a heartbeat, except it would be a lie. And I'm not gonna lie. That never happens, even on a theft case, even on a possession of marijuana case, even on a hubcap case. Everybody flips sadly enough to save themselves. Yeah, he said, no way, not gonna lie. I said, all right, well they're going to take you to jail. They're going to wheel you to jail, and they're going to charge you with capital murder, which is death penalty offense. And he goes, I wasn't there. Tell him to take me to jail, and they did.
00:07:19
Speaker 1: The next day, the Jefferson County Sheriff's Office announces formal charges in the murder of Deputy Bill Hardy.
00:07:27
Speaker 4: Charged with capital murder of a law enforcement officer our twenty two year old tor Forrest Johnson, twenty one year old are Dragis Ford, twenty three year old Ohman Berry, and twenty one year old Quinn Tes Wilson. They are held without bond.
00:07:43
Speaker 1: All four people charged with capital murder are young black men. Based on the changing stories of Yolanda Chambers, detectives believe at least six people were in the parking lot behind the hotel when Hardy was Shotlanda and Latanya to Forrest and Ardregis, and the two other people Yolanda identified in photos, Omar Barry and Quintez Wilson. The headline and the Birmingham News reads police confident they got right men and deputy slaying sounds like an open and shut investigation, but pull back the curtain or in this case, open up the investigative file and the inner workings tell a different story.
00:08:54
Speaker 7: Do you he my man?
00:09:00
Speaker 8: It is.
00:09:02
Speaker 12: Lab hads ma be sorrow dep re list.
00:09:17
Speaker 7: In this bas both tears.
00:09:25
Speaker 12: I want to see.
00:09:29
Speaker 7: Revelation. I want to know who you A'm retional in thisspiration to the wood. Who's holding? Start to the Who's holding?
00:10:06
Speaker 1: I'm Beth Shelburn. This is ear witness Chapter four, Witness or defendant the tactic the state uses with Ardregis telling him he can either be a witness or a defendant. Detective Tony Richardson repeats it over and over during Deputy Hardy's murder investigation.
00:10:29
Speaker 8: You are in a position now to be one of two things.
00:10:32
Speaker 9: Okay, you can either be a witness or.
00:10:36
Speaker 8: You can be a defendant. You know, you can either be a witness or you can be a defendant.
00:10:40
Speaker 9: Can only be either a witness or you can be a defendant. Okay, it's your choice, you make it. You tell me what you want to do.
00:10:50
Speaker 1: One of the people Tony Richardson uses this tactic on is Yolanda Chamber's friend Latanya Henderson, who is in the car with DeForest Ardregis and Yolanda, the night Deputy Hardy was killed.
00:11:04
Speaker 9: Datanya, I am working a homicide, okay, And in working this homicide, people have choices. It's choice whether you want to be a witness or you want to be a defendant.
00:11:15
Speaker 1: Latanya is sixteen years old. She's in high school and lives with her mother and brother. And as she's questioned about the knight of the murder, she's alone in the room with detectives, no lawyer, no parent present.
00:11:31
Speaker 8: I'm not saying anything to entice you to say something.
00:11:36
Speaker 9: You tell me what was the truth, and you tell me that's the truth, and I'm gonna take it like that.
00:11:40
Speaker 8: But I do want you to know that some people are going to be witnesses. Some are going to be defendants. Defendants going to jail. Okay.
00:11:47
Speaker 1: Now, after giving Latania this choice, Detective Richardson asks her where she was that night?
00:11:54
Speaker 9: Were you at NIA or around at hotel when this officer was shot?
00:12:00
Speaker 8: No, sir, okay, And you've never been there before. No, I haven't.
00:12:05
Speaker 9: And you have no independent knowledge of what happened to this office.
00:12:09
Speaker 8: No I haven't.
00:12:11
Speaker 1: Despite being told she's a suspect and a murder Latania does not change her story, but she also doesn't seem to understand the rules of the game detectives are playing. She asks Detective Richardson to explain, that's a.
00:12:26
Speaker 8: Question, is defendent of someone's charged with the crime? Well? No, no, no, no, defendant?
00:12:35
Speaker 13: No?
00:12:35
Speaker 8: All right, so you want to.
00:12:37
Speaker 1: Be Latanya has to ask what it means to be a defendant, then says she doesn't want to be charged with the crime. At one point, Richardson stops the tape like he's done in Yolanda's interviews, and restarts it after a five minute break.
00:12:55
Speaker 9: You know what the crown starney isn't Would you know it if you saw it?
00:12:58
Speaker 14: No?
00:12:58
Speaker 8: I have never seen it. I have nothing.
00:13:00
Speaker 9: Were you in any hotel parking lot that night where shots were fire?
00:13:05
Speaker 8: You know?
00:13:05
Speaker 9: Okay, this sort of Tony rich and justin kind of shares shot at the time, it's three fifty pm.
00:13:11
Speaker 8: This is going to conclude this interview.
00:13:17
Speaker 1: In a lot of the interviews that you did in this case, you and Sergeant Salter presented a choice. You can be a witness or you can be a defendant. Tell me about presenting that to somebody that you're interviewing. That seems like a lot of pressure to put on someone.
00:13:36
Speaker 3: Well, at certain times you have to put pressure on somebody.
00:13:38
Speaker 8: That's just a that's just a strategy. That's that's just an.
00:13:41
Speaker 3: Investigative too, that's that.
00:13:43
Speaker 8: That's nothing.
00:13:44
Speaker 3: So I look at you and I say, look, you can either be a witness.
00:13:49
Speaker 8: Or you can be a defendant. It's up to you. And that's the truth.
00:13:53
Speaker 1: What if the person is neither a witness nor a defendant in the case, though.
00:13:59
Speaker 3: Well, sometimes you say that trying to determine if they are witness or defendant, you know, particularly if you don't know, and if they continue to maintain I know nothing, at some point I'm gonna say, okay, I got you.
00:14:14
Speaker 1: But for Latania, there was never an okay, I got you from investigators. Even though she explains she doesn't know anything about the crime, detectives follow through with their threat and make her a defendant. One month after Tony Richardson questions Latania, the state charges her with hindering prosecution in Alabama. That's a felony at sixteen years old. Police take Latania Henderson to adult jail, where she stays for five months.
00:14:57
Speaker 15: You know, Latania Henderson. I mean, even if she had been there. Yeah, even Iflanda's story was true.
00:15:06
Speaker 8: What she had defendant on, you know, what has she done?
00:15:11
Speaker 1: This is Derek Drennan, a lawyer who worked with Richard Jeffy in representing Ardregis.
00:15:17
Speaker 15: Ford, and I don't know. I think they charged with hindering prosecution, maybe because because basically she wasn't telling the lies that Yolanda was telling.
00:15:33
Speaker 1: A few years later, Latania says that she was hysterical when they took her to jail, desperate to get detectives to believe her. She says that she suffered from stress and lost too much weight. I really wanted to talk to Latanya to hear how this experience shaped her, and we tried for months to track her down, looking on doors, calling possible numbers, combing social media, but we never could connect. I was able to talk to her uncle, Herman Henderson, a pastor in Birmingham. He told me Latania and Yolanda had been friends since they were babies, but this case ended their friendship and Latanya was scarred by the entire experience. Her trust in other people eroded. Yolanda Chambers and Latanya Henderson made different choices when faced with threats from police. There's a damned if you do, damned if you don't dynamic and how they were each impacted. Yolanda became a witness for detectives, avoiding jail time during Hardy's murder investigation, but entered a pattern of exploitation that may have led to her murder. Latanya became a defendant for telling the truth. She didn't have any information to give, and detectives sent her to jail. Both Yolanda and Latanya ended up traumatized and hurt. And as I think through how detectives treated these witnesses and the suspects of Harty's murder, I keep coming back to this one thing that Tony Richardson.
00:17:27
Speaker 3: Said, The best thing that a person probably can do for themselves that's suspected of a crime is do not talk to the bout pace period.
00:17:38
Speaker 1: Now that's really interesting coming from a retired detective.
00:17:41
Speaker 8: But that's the truth.
00:18:06
Speaker 1: Detectives are moving ahead with the theory of the crime that Yolanda Chambers gives them and her interrogations, even though the theory isn't supported by what hotel witnesses saw and heard the night of the murder. So what were detectives missing, what evidence was available? And was there anything else they should have looked at but didn't because they decided to stick with Yolanda as their key witness. Let's back up to the moment Hardy was shot. We know officers began their investigation by talking to hotel guests actual confirmed witnesses who were staying at the Crown Sterling Suites. Several people heard the shots and looked out their window right after it happened, like Marshal Kelly Cummings the Keebler Cookie Guy.
00:18:59
Speaker 10: Following the interview with mister Marshall Kelly Cummings, mitter Collens is in polled by Kedler.
00:19:07
Speaker 1: This interview was recorded about two and a half hours after Hardy was shot. Cummings says he saw someone get into a car and drive away from the hotel right after he heard the shots fired.
00:19:21
Speaker 8: Immediately seen the savend shot wrung out.
00:19:23
Speaker 3: I pulled the cartain back and looked out and that's when I saw the car down below me.
00:19:29
Speaker 8: I saw the a person.
00:19:33
Speaker 1: Cummings says he saw the person close the driver's side door.
00:19:38
Speaker 8: I looked at closing witch door the driver shot.
00:19:42
Speaker 1: He saw a copper colored or light brown car with a vinyl top, slowly back out of the parking spot and drive away with the headlights off.
00:19:53
Speaker 8: But you think it was a dark copper or like browd, Yes, sir.
00:19:58
Speaker 1: And there was another witness in a different hotel room who also looked out his window after he heard the shots.
00:20:06
Speaker 8: All right, we heard a shot. I jumped up.
00:20:09
Speaker 14: I actually a doorged in my head out.
00:20:12
Speaker 1: The night of the murder, Leon Calvin was staying in room six' eleven with his Wife. Annie the two of them were in. Bed he was WATCHING tv and she was reading the. Newspaper they heard the first shot And leon Told annie he thought it was a car. Backfiring he heard a.
00:20:31
Speaker 8: Shot. Bang tell me how long after is?
00:20:35
Speaker 7: It?
00:20:35
Speaker 9: Bang?
00:20:37
Speaker 8: Bang, okay so Just i'll second or so.
00:20:41
Speaker 1: Yeah after the second, Shot calvin went to the window to see what was going.
00:20:46
Speaker 16: On seeing a.
00:20:48
Speaker 3: Car down by the bag of the, motel.
00:20:52
Speaker 8: He walked up, beside came round in front of the car and got in the.
00:20:56
Speaker 1: Car calvin's description of the car and what the car did is it left the parking lot matches the details given By Marshall.
00:21:05
Speaker 13: CUMMINGS i told him it was there was a dog colored gold all brown with a kind of maroon looking top with a sun.
00:21:14
Speaker 1: Roping Both cummings And calvin say the car was a four door, brown gold or copper sedan with a maroon. Top that's so. Specific they both say it was the only car leaving the parking lot right after shots were. Fired what these witnesses saw doesn't match the theory of the, murder detectives go with. Manicolo ardregis describes his car to detectives the day he's. Arrested he was driving a two door black nineteen seventy One Monte. Carlo we'll call it Blood. End he had installed Flow master, mufflers so it made a, loud rumbling.
00:22:04
Speaker 17: SOUND i got like flow.
00:22:06
Speaker 8: Mass you got these Floor masters?
00:22:09
Speaker 1: Loud, okay people could Hear ardregas's car coming from blocks away To forest tells detectives that when they picked Up, latanya they actually waited for her in an alley because they didn't want to wake up the entire. House But calvin And cummings say that the light brown or copper colored car quietly drove out of the parking, lot and there's an even bigger discrepancy not.
00:22:40
Speaker 8: Do i'll grove a door on.
00:22:42
Speaker 1: Over the driver's side door On ardregas's very loud Black Monte carlo was. Broken it did not, open Ar dregas and to forst tell this to Detectives Dreda.
00:22:59
Speaker 8: Domo At Duel delt the driver doom went.
00:23:03
Speaker 1: Off investigators impounded Are dregis's car and confirmed the driver's side door didn't. Open Detective Tony richardson would later testify to, this but Both calvin And cummings say that someone got in the driver's side of the car and quietly drove.
00:23:23
Speaker 3: AWAY i seen.
00:23:25
Speaker 8: Him he walked from the patent's side round in front of the car to the driver side the.
00:23:31
Speaker 1: Gadion there were other guests at the hotel who spotted cars leaving the area around this, time but their descriptions were all. Different the only consistent descriptions of the getaway car came From cummings And, calvin two people who went to their hotel room windows after hearing shots and looked down into the parking. Lot the investigative file shows that police tried to find the car seen By calvin In, cummings But Tony richardson would eventually tell a grand jury the search was a wild goose, chase and that the car didn't. Exist and there's something even more significant about this other hotel, Witness Leon. Calvin he gives police a basic description of the. Man he saw five foot, ten medium build who got into the car and drove.
00:24:36
Speaker 9: Away, yeah a black and white driver shirt and it looked like he had count.
00:24:44
Speaker 8: Be catty the.
00:24:46
Speaker 1: Summer calvin describes the man as wearing a black and white shirt and khaki or cream. Pants this is the only physical description given of a potential, suspect but detectives decide That calvin isn't a, Witness he's a. Defendant AS i dig, DEEPER i learn That Detective Tony richardson And Leon colvin are, cousins and in the first week of the, Investigation richardson decides That colvin is hiding. Something we have.
00:25:21
Speaker 8: Talked with several.
00:25:22
Speaker 9: People people we have talked to have have indicated that you do know.
00:25:27
Speaker 1: More calvin gives detectives multiple statements about what he heard and, saw And Tony richardson interrogates him for hours about his movements inside the hotel the night of the, murder insisting That calvin was.
00:25:43
Speaker 9: Involved if you tell us one thing and it's not. Accurate if we know that you know, different and you can be charged with the. Crime, okay just show you a.
00:25:56
Speaker 1: Note Tony richardson Shows Yolanda chambers four photo of possible. Suspects yolanda picks out the photo Of Leon calvin and says he was involved in the alleged drug deal behind the hotel When hardy was.
00:26:10
Speaker 9: Killed loud of that, light, upset you were standing right there when the man was.
00:26:15
Speaker 1: Shot Leon calvin is charged with hindering prosecution and taken to.
00:26:22
Speaker 14: Jail, well my.
00:26:24
Speaker 4: Most, HEY i aint did did?
00:26:26
Speaker 9: HIM i ain't did?
00:26:27
Speaker 3: NONE i did? HIM i did did?
00:26:30
Speaker 10: HIM i did.
00:26:32
Speaker 1: Him police press ahead With ardregis into forrest as two of their main, suspects even though there is no record of any hotel witness describing a loud two door Black Bonnie carlo leaving the scene or a man in a. Wheelchair there's another clue in the file that jumps out at. ME a police report from a day after the murder states that a hotel worker Named jerry McDaniel told detectives that he Saw Deputy hardy arguing with a group of young black men who had been running around inside the, hotel especially the sixth. Floor there's even a description of one of these young, men six feet, tall, slim wearing a, dark baggy basketball jersey with the number thirty three on. It WHEN i first read, THIS i was, LIKE whoa What this information seems super. Relevant hardy was arguing with the group of people just hours before he was. Murdered jerry McDaniel would later testify in court that he Saw hardy having this loud argument with the group of young men around TEN, pm and that he Saw hardy again before he left for the night around eleven. Thirty McDaniel Said hardy was standing at the back door of the, hotel propping it open with his. Foot he also spotted the same group of young men outside in the back parking lot as he left work to go. Home he said that after the, Confrontation hardy seemed, mad SAYING i ain't never seen him like that. Before but detectives never identified the young men and later say their interview With jerry McDaniel never led to any more. EVIDENCE i want to pursue. This If jerry McDaniel is still, around maybe he can give us some new information about those last hours Of hardy's, life something about the young men he saw arguing With, hardy some new nugget to breathe life into this. Case i'm looking, for, Mister jerry, McDaniel.
00:29:05
Speaker 14: Is that?
00:29:05
Speaker 8: You thank you so.
00:29:08
Speaker 1: Much jerry McDaniel is retired in his seventies and lives in a small green Shake shingle, bungalow the same house he's lived in his entire adult. Life we talk on his porch and he Remembers hardy's murder conversation with.
00:29:25
Speaker 10: Anybody, Yeah, Coase i'm moving around SO i see. Everything i've become total ashn and. Stuff you, know there's been a lot of stuff going on that.
00:29:33
Speaker 3: Hotel.
00:29:34
Speaker 1: Dogs McDaniel also remembers Seeing hardy argue with the group of young men inside the. HOTEL i, mean did it seem Like Deputy hardy knew those?
00:29:45
Speaker 8: PEOPLE i don't.
00:29:46
Speaker 10: Know you might have known him cause he something he he wanted something they had or something they didn't give him SOMETHING i don't what it.
00:29:56
Speaker 1: Was and about an hour and a half, later when he ended his shift and left the, building he passed By, hardy who was standing at the hotel's back. Door do you remember look exactly what you.
00:30:09
Speaker 10: Saw, yeah he was standing at the back door back there to the, right and and it was a CAR i did WHEN i, left you, know read, there read dead to back by what a dark.
00:30:21
Speaker 1: Bed but that's pretty much all he. Remembers had police aggressively pursued this, lead they might have gotten. Somewhere but, now decades, later McDaniel can no longer recall any other specific details about the car or anything else from that. Night whatever he, saw whoever those young men, were that potential big lead has, faded likely impossible to. Recover after reading through hundreds of pages of, Reports there's a question that still sticks with. Me why Did Deputy hardy leave the hotel atrium where he was drinking coffee and smoking a cigarette to go out the back door to the parking lot without his radio and then.
00:31:34
Speaker 16: Ute every hour on the hour or so or every hour and a, half he would do a drive around the premises to check out the perimeter of the.
00:31:45
Speaker 1: Hotel according To Barry, rushikov the hotel desk, Clerk hardy's routine was to walk around inside the hotel when he was making his, rounds but when he checked around the outside of the, hotel he usually drove around the property in his car right after the. Crime the sheriff tells reporters That Deputy hardy may have been investigating something, suspicious maybe a drug. Deal but If hardy went outside to check something behind the, hotel why would he leave his two way radio on the table. Inside barry talked to detectives just five hours after the. Murder he told them about how weird this detail seemed to.
00:32:31
Speaker 15: Him tell me what she thought was unusual about?
00:32:35
Speaker 8: Him not in the wont to tell?
00:32:37
Speaker 2: Me Offer, hardy if he got, out he always put the radio in his back, pocket and if he was, smoking he never would leave us a. Cigarette, really he would always walk around with. It for him to have left both the radio and a cigarette was extremely unlike, him completely unlike.
00:32:55
Speaker 1: Him hardy had over two decades of experience as a law enforcement. Officer leaving his radio behind seems out of, character and he also left his cigarette. Burning is it possible that he was expecting to go outside, quickly maybe to meet, someone and that's why he left them. Behind is it possible That hardy knew his? KILLER i tried to look into. This there is a file containing records of the calls that police received from the special tip line set up for the, case AND i found eight different tips urging detectives to look Into hardy's personal. Life these tips suggest that Someone hardy knew might be connected to his. MURDER i Asked Detective Tony richardson about. This is there anything that you recall y'all investigating as far as that, GOES.
00:33:57
Speaker 3: I don't recall, that recall us investigating. Anything i'll say right now THAT i wouldn't. HAVE i, Mean i'm investigating the police officers is. Dead he's been shot and. Killed it don't matter what he. Did if somebody walked up to him and shot him like.
00:34:15
Speaker 1: That my Producer mara presses.
00:34:19
Speaker 9: Him like the first thing to, me IF i hear that somebody has, KILLED i would look at their life for a motive instead of assuming that it was.
00:34:27
Speaker 8: Random is that not where you would? Start you? KNOW i can explain like, This.
00:34:39
Speaker 3: When hardy was, shot he was in, uniform working a part time security, job still a serfs.
00:34:48
Speaker 8: Deputy now doing his, job and he was shot and.
00:34:55
Speaker 13: Killed, okay if he he had been.
00:35:02
Speaker 8: At home.
00:35:05
Speaker 3: In his, pajamas.
00:35:09
Speaker 8: Shot and kill.
00:35:12
Speaker 13: In, bed.
00:35:15
Speaker 8: We would have looked at him because that's what you.
00:35:19
Speaker 1: Do Because Deputy hardy was a police officer and was killed in, uniform not in his own bed wearing, Pajamas Detective richardson says he wouldn't have looked into people that Knew. Hardy, Instead richardson repeats the theory That hardy walked up on a drug deal that he wasn't supposed to see and that's why he was. Killed an insider THAT i talked, to a retired bailiff who worked In Jefferson county When Deputy hardy was, murdered told me that this theory about a police officer interrupting a drug, deal it's like a default explanation when detectives don't have any idea what. Happened the sheriff first mentioned the scenario hours after the, murder and the media ran with. It the only eventual evidence to support this theory the always changing statements From Yolanda. Chambers detectives not only missed potential promising, leads they also ignored facts that could have ruled out To Forrest johnson and Ardregas ford as. Suspects some of the people who were with To forest And ardregas At tea's place remember learning about their arrests from the media coverage the week after the.
00:37:06
Speaker 9: Murder WHEN i read it in the, PAPER i saw To forest name AND i was, like, well.
00:37:11
Speaker 16: How did he do?
00:37:12
Speaker 8: It we was At tease the you know that.
00:37:14
Speaker 1: Night Can Yarra pickett was At teas at the same Time Deputy hardy was. Killed she was out celebrating with her Sister, deidre who had just recovered from, surgery and To forrest gave her name to, police a female And.
00:37:30
Speaker 14: Galla keenan kend.
00:37:33
Speaker 1: K he told them to find a girl named ken that he was hanging out with At, teas but they never called or knocked on her.
00:37:42
Speaker 3: DOOR i never went to the police or anything BECAUSE i was on the age at the.
00:37:47
Speaker 8: Time, YEAH i mean.
00:37:49
Speaker 2: That how old were?
00:37:49
Speaker 14: YOU i THINK i was.
00:37:50
Speaker 9: Twenty it was ninety five twenty In.
00:37:53
Speaker 1: April, Yes so did they not check id's at the club or did y'all have fake? Id's they had a FAKE. Id so that made you not want to go to police because you didn't want to go worn't supposed to be.
00:38:03
Speaker 8: There, YEAH i didn't want to go.
00:38:05
Speaker 1: There kenyara was scared that she would end up in jail if she went to, POLICE.
00:38:12
Speaker 6: I saw on the news That Tfara johnson had been picked up for that murder Of Officer. HARDY i, said wait a, minute there's no, WAY i, SAID i saw to.
00:38:22
Speaker 1: Fire Stanley chandler is another person who saw To forrest And ardregis At tea's place at the Time Deputy hardy was. Murdered stanley is A Us marine and he was also hesitant to get.
00:38:36
Speaker 5: Involved you know you twenty, FIVE i.
00:38:38
Speaker 6: Just cannot walk and down to count of jails say, HEY i saw that guy at the club that night at that. Time you, know so no one never contacted, me and SO i felt like If farres needed, me that someone would reach. OUT i had no knowledge of what to.
00:38:53
Speaker 1: Do Are dregas and To forrest told police about multiple people they were with At, tease the bartender who remade a weak, drink the guy who sold To forest a hot dog outside the, club and the girls they chatted with in the parking. Lot To forrest also Gave Tony richardson the names and phone numbers of friends he remembered seeing inside the.
00:39:19
Speaker 14: Club y feed man name Is queasy Were.
00:39:23
Speaker 1: Queasy Including queisi And Mama.
00:39:26
Speaker 3: Catay with one Fname Mama cat.
00:39:31
Speaker 8: And number seven eighty Five forest, right? Okay.
00:39:37
Speaker 5: Uh The forest couldn't give us any names other than nicknames or maybe a first.
00:39:42
Speaker 8: Name there was no way that we could find a.
00:39:45
Speaker 5: Witness but we sat and we, waited hoping that you know who don't know that The forest is in jail for this, crime maybe they'll come. Forward not a single one nobody came forward to, say, hey you got the wrong guy he was he was at the.
00:40:04
Speaker 1: Club not a single person came forward to say To forrest was At tea's place the night of the. Murder After Tony richardson tells me, THIS i look through the investigative file to double check.
00:40:20
Speaker 14: This Sergeant Tony richardson J Just County sheriff's. OFFICE i am on the phone with Bar betta and that SPELLED BA R B E t t A, hunt also known As Mama. Cat do you remember Where Taforest johnson was on the night Of july to eighteenth or the morning Of july to, nineteen IS i?
00:40:42
Speaker 11: Too?
00:40:42
Speaker 14: Okay can you tell me?
00:40:43
Speaker 1: Where right there in the folder of recorded police, INTERVIEWS i find That Detective richardson did talk with an alibi witness he Called mama cat about a month after the. Murder, WELL i saw him a teas.
00:40:59
Speaker 14: Place you saw Me tea's. Place, YES i was with my Friend Belanique. Sanders Belanique. Sanders, oh, okay all, RIGHT i am on the phone With Bello Nique. Sanders felaanick is also known As queasy and her home phone numbers seven.
00:41:14
Speaker 1: Eighty on the same, Day Detective richardson talked To, velaanique also known As. Queasy she told him she sow To forrest And ardregas Inside tease between ELEVEN pm and one. THIRTY. Am, okay all.
00:41:30
Speaker 14: Right is there any particular reason that you remember the time that they got, there any time that they.
00:41:34
Speaker 3: Left, yes the time that they got, there my friend By Bella, hunt her beeper had went, out AND i remember her telling me.
00:41:42
Speaker 1: What time it.
00:41:43
Speaker 14: Was, okay what about the time they?
00:41:46
Speaker 1: Left the time they, left my beeper went.
00:41:49
Speaker 14: Out, okay my sister was paiding me to tell me to come.
00:41:52
Speaker 10: Home uh, Huh that's WHY i remember the.
00:41:55
Speaker 14: Time, okay all right.
00:41:58
Speaker 1: NOW i Interviewed Tony richardson twenty seven years after this. INVESTIGATION i guess it's possible that he just doesn't remember speaking With Mama cat And. Quisi so AFTER i found these phone, CALLS i went back to ask him about. It there were alibi witnesses on the record that told Y'ALL i saw them At tea's. Place now whatever went into not believing them as not in any files that we've been able to.
00:42:30
Speaker 5: Access, well SINCE i don't know.
00:42:34
Speaker 3: Who this witness, WAS i can't remember. THEM i can't remember what they. Said, UH i can't really tell you IF i believe them or. Not probably, Not probably.
00:42:47
Speaker 1: Not but cops have a lot of discretion as far as that goes right in believers believing alibi witnesses or not believing alibi.
00:42:57
Speaker 17: Witnesses well you, HAVE i, mean you can believe but disbelieve. Anybody but if someone tells you something that either you need to check out or check, further or tells you something that could possibly have, happened you have an obligation to either prove or disprove that.
00:43:19
Speaker 8: You have that.
00:43:20
Speaker 1: Obligation but speaking With Mama cat And, quisi hearing them corroborate To forrest And ardregis's, alibi it wasn't enough for detectives to question their own theory of the. Crime the pressure to put someone on trial for Killing Deputy hardy isn't letting. Up but fifteen months after the, crime the judge dismisses capital murder charges against two of their main, Suspects Omar berry And Quintez. Wilson Yolanda chambers changes her story to say they weren't involved in the. Murder they also have alibis and police believe, them so detectives let them. Go To forrest And ardregas are now the only two suspects charged With Deputy hardy's, murder But wright is detective zero in On, ardregas and To, forest they run into a big. Problem two weeks after she Says Omar berry And Quintez wilson have nothing to do with the, Crime Yolanda chambers pivots and says under oath that she's made up the entire story about the. Murder she recants all of her, testimony now saying To forrest And ardregas also had nothing.
00:44:58
Speaker 7: To do with the.
00:44:58
Speaker 3: Murder evidence, wise we didn't have virtually, well we had virtually no.
00:45:05
Speaker 13: Evidence we had the word of a fifteen year old who told, lies a lot of.
00:45:17
Speaker 16: LIES i lie, out lie out.
00:45:19
Speaker 3: Lie we had this table empty wasn't nothing on, it and we were still trying to try that, case and we were, like, man what we gonna.
00:45:28
Speaker 8: Do how we're gonna win?
00:45:28
Speaker 1: This but investigators have someone, else someone they hadn't initially, believed someone who will become the state's new star witness against To Forrest.
00:45:41
Speaker 17: Johnson bally us walking that door and stand up on this table and say what she.
00:45:48
Speaker 8: Said we got a full. Table now we got all the evidence we.
00:45:53
Speaker 1: Need that's next. Time Ear witness is a production Of lava For Good podcasts in association With Signal Company Number. One executive producers Are Jason, Flomm Jeff, Kempler Kevin, wardis and Me Beth. Shelburn the investigative reporting for this series was done By me AND maraa. McNamara producers ARE maraa, McNamara Hannah bial And Jackie. Pauley Kara kornhaber is our senior. Producer Britt spangler is our sound. Designer additional story editing From Marie, sutton fact check help From Katherine, newhan and special thanks to To Forrest johnson's legal defense. Team you can follow the show On, instagram, TikTok, facebook And twitter At lava For Good to see behind the scenes content from our, Investigation Visit lava For good dot, com slash earwitness
