Nov. 13, 2025
From the Mic to the Page: No. 1 of 5
Leo Schofield turns tables.
Exclusive Excerpts from Gilbert King’s new book, Bone Valley: A True Story of Injustice and Redemption in the Heart of Florida.
Subscribers to Lava For Good Plus on Apple podcasts can hear new ad-free excerpts from the book every Wednesday.
The book is available for purchase now at the link below:
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00:00:00
Speaker 1: Hi, everyone, this is Gilbert. In the coming weeks, we're bringing you something special, something I think Bone Value listeners will really want to hear. Over the last few years, I've met so many of you at Crime Con live events and online, and I've been struck by your curiosity about how we made the podcast and what was happening behind the scenes of our investigation. One of the most flattering things I hear from our most loyal listeners is that you want more, you want updates, and you want to hear from the people in this story you've come to care so much about.
00:00:40
Speaker 2: We got you.
00:00:42
Speaker 1: As many of you know, I decided to write a book about the Leo Schofield case. It's called Bone Valley, A true story of injustice and redemption in the heart of Florida, and it's now out in the world with some terrific early reviews. When a lot of you first heard that I was writing the book, the response was, you have to read the audiobook. So I did, and as a special thank you to Bone Valley listeners, we're releasing exclusive excerpts from the audiobook, moments that take you behind the scenes of our investigation into Michelle Schofield's murder scenes that didn't make it into the podcast, and even some new voices. In a way, this book takes you behind the crime scene tape, but my goal was still to give readers the same narrative, tension and intimacy that made the podcast what it is. In our first installment of Bone Valley, from the Mic to the Page, we're starting with a bit of a twist. After the audiobook's epilogue, Leo Schofield turns the tables and interviews me. To no one's surprise, Leo was very comfortable in this role, as I think you'll be able to tell. Here are the first sixteen minutes from that hour long conversation, which I hope you'll enjoy as much as I did.
00:02:11
Speaker 3: Hi, listeners, it's Gilbert King. Thank you for listening to the Bone Valley audiobook Today. I'm honored to be joined in the studio by Leo Schofield, the man whose story you've just heard.
00:02:23
Speaker 4: Hi. I'm Leo Schofield, and I'm excited to be here with Gilbert. While Gilbert has asked me so many questions over the years, today I have the opportunity to ask him some of my own questions.
00:02:36
Speaker 2: So here we are Gilbert. Oh boy, I don't like this already.
00:02:40
Speaker 4: We've been together since I was thinking about this last night twenty eighteen, correct.
00:02:47
Speaker 2: Yeah, twenty eighteen, the first time. Yeah.
00:02:50
Speaker 4: Did you ever envision this moment here?
00:02:55
Speaker 3: No?
00:02:57
Speaker 2: Shit, that's starting early.
00:03:00
Speaker 1: No, you know, I just I remember so many times showing.
00:03:03
Speaker 3: Up at Harty and just sitting across for you and just feeling the shame that you would come in your blues and be escorted by a guard. And at the end of this conversation, we get to walk out to the parking lot and go off on our lives and you go back in your cell.
00:03:20
Speaker 2: And I think the thing that really.
00:03:22
Speaker 3: Got to me the most was that I knew from talking to Chrissy that we're bringing up the most horrific moments of your life. And we go and walk out into the car and drive home and have a meal, and you go back into your cell and have to live with the aftermath of this trauma that you've just recounted. And I always felt bad about that, and I don't how did you deal with that?
00:03:45
Speaker 4: Yeah? You know, And I appreciate you saying that, because I remember those moments myself and for me from my end, I would get back to the cell, and while it was difficult to relive those moments and keep going over it, I had a great hope that something would be different in the telling of it this time because it was you, you know, I mean, you're Gilbert King, I mean really, and that hope is what helped me get through another day, another week, another year, you know. And when we started this in twenty eighteen, when you came on board, we were talking about a book.
00:04:23
Speaker 2: You remember that, Yeah, yeah, yeah, you didn't know what a podcast was.
00:04:26
Speaker 4: And then you come with the podcast and do you remember do you remember telling me we were going to do the podcast?
00:04:31
Speaker 2: I kind of do, Well, what did you say the reasons? What is a podcast?
00:04:38
Speaker 4: And then when you described it to me, I said that sounds like AM radio.
00:04:42
Speaker 2: I had no reference for it.
00:04:43
Speaker 4: You know, it's thirty six years while at that time thirty two thirty one years in prison, and had no reference for a podcast, never experienced it, and yet Bone Valley turned into the most incredible experiences of my life in getting to know you. You know some of my favorite books. You know, you write in a genre that I really enjoy. Anyway, so you're the author of Devil in the Grove. You got a Politzer Prize for that. Beneath the Ruthless Sun. I've read both of those, and one that wasn't as well known that was really an emotional book for me was The Execution of Willie Francis. Yeah, and so I kind of got a feel for what you write about. And so I'm just wondering, because this is all dealing with civil rights stuff, wrongful convictions, wrongful deaths in a system of justice, and I'm wondering what it is about that subject that was so important to you as a person.
00:05:50
Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, I think it's just one of these things where from a very early age, I remember being drawn to books like count A Monte Cristo, you know, like justices, wrongfully accused people. I just felt like the passion of the narrators. Papion was another book I remember reading as a young person, and wrongfully convicted, sentenced to Devil's Island, and this it is kind of an adventure story in some respect, but at the heart of these stories it's about a man losing his freedom, and for some reason that just really resonated with me, even at an early age, I grew up at a time well we're kind of close in age, but watching Roots on television and just realizing like, this is part of American history, and like I didn't know anything about this, and just being drawn by those injustices. This always affected my sense of the stories I was drawn to, and so most of the work I was doing was mostly set in the pre civil rights movements, the forties and the fifties. So you know, when Judge Scott Cupp came to me and gave me that card, I was not thinking about, let me try and do something in the current day. I really felt like the past was where I wanted to stay. And you know, he told me about it. I was intry because he's a judge and he's saying there's an innocent man out there who was still in prison, and you know, it's hard to just say no, I won't look into it. I think I mentioned this in the book that you know, I kind of wanted to get him off the phone. But the easy way to do it was say, all right, I'll look at the transcript, and you know that started the whole process for me. I started reading, I'm like, how is this stuff happening now? I knew it happened in the forties and fifties, but how is this stuff i'm reading about happening now? And that's when I've sort of said, you know, I'm going to look into this more. I said to Judge cub what's what's the next step? And I remember he said, I think it's time you meet Leo. And he kind of said it to me in a way like you're in for something, You're in for something. Where do you meet this guy? And I didn't believe him to be honest with you. I'm always very skeptical, but that was the way I experienced it. As soon as we met, and as soon as I started hearing your story and sitting across from you, it affected me in a way that I really was drawn. I remember there was something you said, so this is the story you remember.
00:08:00
Speaker 2: For those words?
00:08:01
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's not going to change. I'm going to talk about that in a minute because I want I want to talk about our relationship.
00:08:07
Speaker 2: But U and thank you for that.
00:08:10
Speaker 4: Really, So would you say what would you say is different about this book in comparison to the others that you have written.
00:08:20
Speaker 3: There's a sense of urgency that comes to a story when the people you're dealing with are sitting across from you and you can see the pain and you can feel the injustice. It's one thing going through the documents and reading trial transcripts and appellate records and newspaper accounts from seventy years ago, and you know, as painful as those are, but there's something else entirely sitting across from a man who is in his prison blues and is going to go right back into his cell when you're done, and recognizing that you're reading about an injustice and this man's life is still affected by that, it just hits you in a very different way. The immediate see of it, the urge to sort of say and I know I said this to you later on in the process, after I fully investigated your story, I said, I don't know what this is going to do for you, how it's going to change your case or your life, but I can promise you this, We.
00:09:14
Speaker 2: Are going to change the narrative.
00:09:16
Speaker 3: And I believe that that is the one thing I could promise you that the narrative is going to be different, because everything I looked into is wrong and I could feel that, and I knew I could only make you that promise that I can. I'm going to change the official story here. I don't know if it's going to help you. Frankly, I didn't think. I didn't think you'd ever get out.
00:09:35
Speaker 4: I'll just be honest with Well, obviously it did help, the narrative changing and getting across to so many people, including people who have the ability to make a difference in my life. I don't think I would be here without just the way you told the narrative. You know, and while you're saying that, I'm thinking about this, this is pretty emotional for me too. You had some really good help along the way. And a woman you mentioned in the book who is a dear friend to both of us now. Her name was Kelsey Decker, and she did a lot and this thing, and I know the book explains a lot of what she does. I want to ask you about what her emotional response was to this. Going further, I know she had a big response in it.
00:10:17
Speaker 3: Well, you know, she started out as a researcher, and so she was ahead of me because I was working on other projects. And I remember her going through the transcript, going through the appellate records and just the intensity of somebody young who's just drawn to this story and just saying, you have to see this, Look at what they did, Look at what the state did, Look what the police did here, Like I could feel her energy and her commitment to this, and it kind of drove me a little bit, because someone who's seen a lot more and been studying these kind of cases for decades, just to see how young people are really affected by injustice.
00:10:51
Speaker 2: It's kind of contagious. And it affected me.
00:10:53
Speaker 3: In a way, like I was feeding off that she was just overwhelmed by the injustice of this, and it reminded me of how I felt when I was younger when I would read these stories, and I could just see how much time she was putting into the research and just pointing these things out to me and wanting to talk about them, and it was really contagious, and it really helped my enthusiasm because having someone to just share this with and just to be able to talk to constantly and work through all these different things that we were learning about your case that.
00:11:23
Speaker 2: Weren't brought out in trial, that weren't brought up, and here we were seeing it.
00:11:27
Speaker 3: It was a tremendous asset to be able to work with someone who was as committed as I felt I was.
00:11:33
Speaker 4: Right, Yeah, and she was definitely that because I remember being interviewed by her how special those moments was for both of us, and specifically because she wasn't.
00:11:43
Speaker 2: Much older than Michelle.
00:11:45
Speaker 4: Yeah, you know, and I felt her connection to that, and I think it was very well covered in one of the Bone Valley episodes in one of the most emotional times of me, because it was hard for me to listen to Bone Valley and here in Elsie after you guys had been in at the pot Commie Sheriff's office reviewing evidence and you got in the car and she breaks down crying and was relating to Michelle and the evidence and everything, and it was just one of the most it's choking me up now even thinking about it. I mean, and I had such a deep and have such a deep connection with Kelsey because of that, and she brings so much validation to the innocence claim.
00:12:28
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think you're absolutely right, and everything about that was real and raw, and we really didn't know what we were doing while we were investigating. We just kept the microphone on all the time. And those are just things that came out, and we just decided we had to just keep recording and just we'll see what we get from this, because we don't really didn't know what we're doing outside of the interviews. But I do remember that moment because at this point, Michelle was always portrayed as the victim, and she was a nameless victim. And by this point we'd met you, we'd met Michelle's brother, and she became a living, breathing person in our story, and you sort of want to honor that in a way that reflects a human being and not just a trope or a character who's no longer alive. You know, she lost her life at eighteen. What was that life like? And I think we felt a real responsibility to portray that in an honest way. And I think one of the most honest ways is just looking at the evidence and seeing all the evidence of they're Michelle's last moments on Earth, and it's starting to fill in a story. And then you see these photographs, and you know the photographs just I know you've seen them.
00:13:41
Speaker 2: They're just.
00:13:44
Speaker 3: If you don't know the person or you don't know anything about their lives.
00:13:47
Speaker 2: There's a numbness to it.
00:13:48
Speaker 3: But when it's somebody you've been talking to family members, people who loved her, it hits you in a hard way. I felt it too, Kelsey felt it in a much more raw way.
00:13:59
Speaker 4: Absolutely, yeah, and I definitely appreciated that, and she is forever endeared to my heart because of it. Let's talk about the book a little bit, if you don't mind, And one of the questions I don't think listeners would want to ask. We've had a lot of downloads on the Bone Valley podcast. I think nine episodes and then the bonus episodes that went with it, right covering you, covering release from prison, Yeah, right through, and it covers a lot of the journey from Michelle's Marta forward to that release.
00:14:37
Speaker 2: Why a book now?
00:14:39
Speaker 3: Originally when we first thought about podcasts, I thought it made sense.
00:14:43
Speaker 2: You're here.
00:14:44
Speaker 3: You were such a dynamic storyteller, your voice it was just something I wasn't used to, and I just I remember thinking people need to hear Leo speaking about his case and his conviction and hopes for release and exoneration. It was powerful just being inside of prison with you for must have been a dozen times, but I felt like there was so much that we couldn't really cover once I started spending years on this. There's parts, especially like in the trial, we don't have audio for that stuff. And there's some really dramatic scenes that take place in the trial that I felt like in the podcast, I just have to be reading transcript and it didn't feel as powerful as a recreating the scene in a book. I felt like I wasn't done with it, and there was so much more that I wanted to add to it, so much more of the research that I couldn't really use in the podcast, but it was there. It was what I'm used to was writing books, and now I have this in front of me, I have these voices and these stories. I just felt like there was so much more to tell, and that's what I really wanted.
00:15:44
Speaker 2: I think with listeners they're going to get a lot of new material, but I.
00:15:48
Speaker 3: Wanted people that read books, who don't listen to podcasts, I want them to experience this narrative. And already it's kind of interesting to see like early copies going out there and people who have never heard the podcast and reading this and hearing their reaction to your story.
00:16:02
Speaker 2: I knew it was there I.
00:16:03
Speaker 3: Kind of resisted a book for a while, but eventually I was like, no, this has to be.
00:16:07
Speaker 2: There's so much more here, so much more we couldn't cover.
00:16:10
Speaker 3: And also like I just have sensibilities as someone who writes narrative nonfiction like this feels like my natural story.
00:16:17
Speaker 2: Podcasting never feels natural to me.
00:16:19
Speaker 3: I hate my voice. I really don't like it. Others seem to not mind it, but I just really wanted to write the book. So the audiobook is a really good compromise.
00:16:27
Speaker 2: Because I get to read it. That's great.
00:16:30
Speaker 4: Well, just so you know, I've heard a lot of people comment on your voice on the podcast, and that's one of the sales for it.
00:16:35
Speaker 2: Puts in the sea.
00:16:36
Speaker 4: They say, no, I didn't hear that. You might have heard other things the book does. And I was privileged to be able to read an early copy of it and the emotional response that I had to it, both in giggling in the places where you you know, were critiqueing something I wore a setter or something like that. It was very funny. I'd laugh and my wife would say, what now, what did you I need it too?
00:16:59
Speaker 3: I wondered, if I know there's one part in the book where I describe you, and this comes from you, Leo, because you talk about having this mismatched suit that you're borrowing, like a jacket from your dad, pants from Dave the bass player, none of them fit because you don't own a suit. And now you've got this haircut that they've given you in prison. And I think you remember saying something, it's not like something you get it supercuts right, and just feeling like a clown, sort of showing up in front of a jury poping life savers, not realizing your life is on the line and you're being judged and not having any sensibility of that. And I remember seeing this one photograph of you sitting next to your attorney, Jack Edmond, and you kind of look like one of those eighties magicians, you know, like your hair is not quite right. There's the lapels on your suit are kind of big. And I was like, this guy looks like a magician. I'm gonna run away from him. And I thought, man, Leo's got to read this. I wondered if you'd be offended.
00:17:53
Speaker 4: I did, And that's one of the definitely one of the places where I giggled and my wife asked, what is it? And I read it to him. Thank you for that bringing humor to a story that otherwise is extremely emotionally sad. For me.
00:18:05
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean there's not a lot of humor at all.
00:18:07
Speaker 4: Right, right, but you covered that really, really well. I think even listeners of the podcast need to read this book.
00:18:15
Speaker 1: I hope you enjoyed this interview. I can't tell you how nice it was to be speaking to Leo in a studio instead of inside a prison. In the coming weeks, we'll be releasing more excerpts from the Bone Valley audiobook right here. Next week's excerpt will include some behind the scenes moments from our investigation into Jeremy Scott's early years, as well as background from one of the most talked about scenes from the podcast. And if you still can't get enough Bone Valley, the book is available in stores everywhere, and the audiobook version can be found wherever you download your audio books. Please see the show notes for details. Thanks very much for listening, and please keep any out for our next installment of Bone Valley. From the Mic to the Page. The next four excerpts to be released after this first one will be available ad free exclusively on Lava for Good, plus on Apple Podcasts.
Speaker 1: Hi, everyone, this is Gilbert. In the coming weeks, we're bringing you something special, something I think Bone Value listeners will really want to hear. Over the last few years, I've met so many of you at Crime Con live events and online, and I've been struck by your curiosity about how we made the podcast and what was happening behind the scenes of our investigation. One of the most flattering things I hear from our most loyal listeners is that you want more, you want updates, and you want to hear from the people in this story you've come to care so much about.
00:00:40
Speaker 2: We got you.
00:00:42
Speaker 1: As many of you know, I decided to write a book about the Leo Schofield case. It's called Bone Valley, A true story of injustice and redemption in the heart of Florida, and it's now out in the world with some terrific early reviews. When a lot of you first heard that I was writing the book, the response was, you have to read the audiobook. So I did, and as a special thank you to Bone Valley listeners, we're releasing exclusive excerpts from the audiobook, moments that take you behind the scenes of our investigation into Michelle Schofield's murder scenes that didn't make it into the podcast, and even some new voices. In a way, this book takes you behind the crime scene tape, but my goal was still to give readers the same narrative, tension and intimacy that made the podcast what it is. In our first installment of Bone Valley, from the Mic to the Page, we're starting with a bit of a twist. After the audiobook's epilogue, Leo Schofield turns the tables and interviews me. To no one's surprise, Leo was very comfortable in this role, as I think you'll be able to tell. Here are the first sixteen minutes from that hour long conversation, which I hope you'll enjoy as much as I did.
00:02:11
Speaker 3: Hi, listeners, it's Gilbert King. Thank you for listening to the Bone Valley audiobook Today. I'm honored to be joined in the studio by Leo Schofield, the man whose story you've just heard.
00:02:23
Speaker 4: Hi. I'm Leo Schofield, and I'm excited to be here with Gilbert. While Gilbert has asked me so many questions over the years, today I have the opportunity to ask him some of my own questions.
00:02:36
Speaker 2: So here we are Gilbert. Oh boy, I don't like this already.
00:02:40
Speaker 4: We've been together since I was thinking about this last night twenty eighteen, correct.
00:02:47
Speaker 2: Yeah, twenty eighteen, the first time. Yeah.
00:02:50
Speaker 4: Did you ever envision this moment here?
00:02:55
Speaker 3: No?
00:02:57
Speaker 2: Shit, that's starting early.
00:03:00
Speaker 1: No, you know, I just I remember so many times showing.
00:03:03
Speaker 3: Up at Harty and just sitting across for you and just feeling the shame that you would come in your blues and be escorted by a guard. And at the end of this conversation, we get to walk out to the parking lot and go off on our lives and you go back in your cell.
00:03:20
Speaker 2: And I think the thing that really.
00:03:22
Speaker 3: Got to me the most was that I knew from talking to Chrissy that we're bringing up the most horrific moments of your life. And we go and walk out into the car and drive home and have a meal, and you go back into your cell and have to live with the aftermath of this trauma that you've just recounted. And I always felt bad about that, and I don't how did you deal with that?
00:03:45
Speaker 4: Yeah? You know, And I appreciate you saying that, because I remember those moments myself and for me from my end, I would get back to the cell, and while it was difficult to relive those moments and keep going over it, I had a great hope that something would be different in the telling of it this time because it was you, you know, I mean, you're Gilbert King, I mean really, and that hope is what helped me get through another day, another week, another year, you know. And when we started this in twenty eighteen, when you came on board, we were talking about a book.
00:04:23
Speaker 2: You remember that, Yeah, yeah, yeah, you didn't know what a podcast was.
00:04:26
Speaker 4: And then you come with the podcast and do you remember do you remember telling me we were going to do the podcast?
00:04:31
Speaker 2: I kind of do, Well, what did you say the reasons? What is a podcast?
00:04:38
Speaker 4: And then when you described it to me, I said that sounds like AM radio.
00:04:42
Speaker 2: I had no reference for it.
00:04:43
Speaker 4: You know, it's thirty six years while at that time thirty two thirty one years in prison, and had no reference for a podcast, never experienced it, and yet Bone Valley turned into the most incredible experiences of my life in getting to know you. You know some of my favorite books. You know, you write in a genre that I really enjoy. Anyway, so you're the author of Devil in the Grove. You got a Politzer Prize for that. Beneath the Ruthless Sun. I've read both of those, and one that wasn't as well known that was really an emotional book for me was The Execution of Willie Francis. Yeah, and so I kind of got a feel for what you write about. And so I'm just wondering, because this is all dealing with civil rights stuff, wrongful convictions, wrongful deaths in a system of justice, and I'm wondering what it is about that subject that was so important to you as a person.
00:05:50
Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, I think it's just one of these things where from a very early age, I remember being drawn to books like count A Monte Cristo, you know, like justices, wrongfully accused people. I just felt like the passion of the narrators. Papion was another book I remember reading as a young person, and wrongfully convicted, sentenced to Devil's Island, and this it is kind of an adventure story in some respect, but at the heart of these stories it's about a man losing his freedom, and for some reason that just really resonated with me, even at an early age, I grew up at a time well we're kind of close in age, but watching Roots on television and just realizing like, this is part of American history, and like I didn't know anything about this, and just being drawn by those injustices. This always affected my sense of the stories I was drawn to, and so most of the work I was doing was mostly set in the pre civil rights movements, the forties and the fifties. So you know, when Judge Scott Cupp came to me and gave me that card, I was not thinking about, let me try and do something in the current day. I really felt like the past was where I wanted to stay. And you know, he told me about it. I was intry because he's a judge and he's saying there's an innocent man out there who was still in prison, and you know, it's hard to just say no, I won't look into it. I think I mentioned this in the book that you know, I kind of wanted to get him off the phone. But the easy way to do it was say, all right, I'll look at the transcript, and you know that started the whole process for me. I started reading, I'm like, how is this stuff happening now? I knew it happened in the forties and fifties, but how is this stuff i'm reading about happening now? And that's when I've sort of said, you know, I'm going to look into this more. I said to Judge cub what's what's the next step? And I remember he said, I think it's time you meet Leo. And he kind of said it to me in a way like you're in for something, You're in for something. Where do you meet this guy? And I didn't believe him to be honest with you. I'm always very skeptical, but that was the way I experienced it. As soon as we met, and as soon as I started hearing your story and sitting across from you, it affected me in a way that I really was drawn. I remember there was something you said, so this is the story you remember.
00:08:00
Speaker 2: For those words?
00:08:01
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's not going to change. I'm going to talk about that in a minute because I want I want to talk about our relationship.
00:08:07
Speaker 2: But U and thank you for that.
00:08:10
Speaker 4: Really, So would you say what would you say is different about this book in comparison to the others that you have written.
00:08:20
Speaker 3: There's a sense of urgency that comes to a story when the people you're dealing with are sitting across from you and you can see the pain and you can feel the injustice. It's one thing going through the documents and reading trial transcripts and appellate records and newspaper accounts from seventy years ago, and you know, as painful as those are, but there's something else entirely sitting across from a man who is in his prison blues and is going to go right back into his cell when you're done, and recognizing that you're reading about an injustice and this man's life is still affected by that, it just hits you in a very different way. The immediate see of it, the urge to sort of say and I know I said this to you later on in the process, after I fully investigated your story, I said, I don't know what this is going to do for you, how it's going to change your case or your life, but I can promise you this, We.
00:09:14
Speaker 2: Are going to change the narrative.
00:09:16
Speaker 3: And I believe that that is the one thing I could promise you that the narrative is going to be different, because everything I looked into is wrong and I could feel that, and I knew I could only make you that promise that I can. I'm going to change the official story here. I don't know if it's going to help you. Frankly, I didn't think. I didn't think you'd ever get out.
00:09:35
Speaker 4: I'll just be honest with Well, obviously it did help, the narrative changing and getting across to so many people, including people who have the ability to make a difference in my life. I don't think I would be here without just the way you told the narrative. You know, and while you're saying that, I'm thinking about this, this is pretty emotional for me too. You had some really good help along the way. And a woman you mentioned in the book who is a dear friend to both of us now. Her name was Kelsey Decker, and she did a lot and this thing, and I know the book explains a lot of what she does. I want to ask you about what her emotional response was to this. Going further, I know she had a big response in it.
00:10:17
Speaker 3: Well, you know, she started out as a researcher, and so she was ahead of me because I was working on other projects. And I remember her going through the transcript, going through the appellate records and just the intensity of somebody young who's just drawn to this story and just saying, you have to see this, Look at what they did, Look at what the state did, Look what the police did here, Like I could feel her energy and her commitment to this, and it kind of drove me a little bit, because someone who's seen a lot more and been studying these kind of cases for decades, just to see how young people are really affected by injustice.
00:10:51
Speaker 2: It's kind of contagious. And it affected me.
00:10:53
Speaker 3: In a way, like I was feeding off that she was just overwhelmed by the injustice of this, and it reminded me of how I felt when I was younger when I would read these stories, and I could just see how much time she was putting into the research and just pointing these things out to me and wanting to talk about them, and it was really contagious, and it really helped my enthusiasm because having someone to just share this with and just to be able to talk to constantly and work through all these different things that we were learning about your case that.
00:11:23
Speaker 2: Weren't brought out in trial, that weren't brought up, and here we were seeing it.
00:11:27
Speaker 3: It was a tremendous asset to be able to work with someone who was as committed as I felt I was.
00:11:33
Speaker 4: Right, Yeah, and she was definitely that because I remember being interviewed by her how special those moments was for both of us, and specifically because she wasn't.
00:11:43
Speaker 2: Much older than Michelle.
00:11:45
Speaker 4: Yeah, you know, and I felt her connection to that, and I think it was very well covered in one of the Bone Valley episodes in one of the most emotional times of me, because it was hard for me to listen to Bone Valley and here in Elsie after you guys had been in at the pot Commie Sheriff's office reviewing evidence and you got in the car and she breaks down crying and was relating to Michelle and the evidence and everything, and it was just one of the most it's choking me up now even thinking about it. I mean, and I had such a deep and have such a deep connection with Kelsey because of that, and she brings so much validation to the innocence claim.
00:12:28
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think you're absolutely right, and everything about that was real and raw, and we really didn't know what we were doing while we were investigating. We just kept the microphone on all the time. And those are just things that came out, and we just decided we had to just keep recording and just we'll see what we get from this, because we don't really didn't know what we're doing outside of the interviews. But I do remember that moment because at this point, Michelle was always portrayed as the victim, and she was a nameless victim. And by this point we'd met you, we'd met Michelle's brother, and she became a living, breathing person in our story, and you sort of want to honor that in a way that reflects a human being and not just a trope or a character who's no longer alive. You know, she lost her life at eighteen. What was that life like? And I think we felt a real responsibility to portray that in an honest way. And I think one of the most honest ways is just looking at the evidence and seeing all the evidence of they're Michelle's last moments on Earth, and it's starting to fill in a story. And then you see these photographs, and you know the photographs just I know you've seen them.
00:13:41
Speaker 2: They're just.
00:13:44
Speaker 3: If you don't know the person or you don't know anything about their lives.
00:13:47
Speaker 2: There's a numbness to it.
00:13:48
Speaker 3: But when it's somebody you've been talking to family members, people who loved her, it hits you in a hard way. I felt it too, Kelsey felt it in a much more raw way.
00:13:59
Speaker 4: Absolutely, yeah, and I definitely appreciated that, and she is forever endeared to my heart because of it. Let's talk about the book a little bit, if you don't mind, And one of the questions I don't think listeners would want to ask. We've had a lot of downloads on the Bone Valley podcast. I think nine episodes and then the bonus episodes that went with it, right covering you, covering release from prison, Yeah, right through, and it covers a lot of the journey from Michelle's Marta forward to that release.
00:14:37
Speaker 2: Why a book now?
00:14:39
Speaker 3: Originally when we first thought about podcasts, I thought it made sense.
00:14:43
Speaker 2: You're here.
00:14:44
Speaker 3: You were such a dynamic storyteller, your voice it was just something I wasn't used to, and I just I remember thinking people need to hear Leo speaking about his case and his conviction and hopes for release and exoneration. It was powerful just being inside of prison with you for must have been a dozen times, but I felt like there was so much that we couldn't really cover once I started spending years on this. There's parts, especially like in the trial, we don't have audio for that stuff. And there's some really dramatic scenes that take place in the trial that I felt like in the podcast, I just have to be reading transcript and it didn't feel as powerful as a recreating the scene in a book. I felt like I wasn't done with it, and there was so much more that I wanted to add to it, so much more of the research that I couldn't really use in the podcast, but it was there. It was what I'm used to was writing books, and now I have this in front of me, I have these voices and these stories. I just felt like there was so much more to tell, and that's what I really wanted.
00:15:44
Speaker 2: I think with listeners they're going to get a lot of new material, but I.
00:15:48
Speaker 3: Wanted people that read books, who don't listen to podcasts, I want them to experience this narrative. And already it's kind of interesting to see like early copies going out there and people who have never heard the podcast and reading this and hearing their reaction to your story.
00:16:02
Speaker 2: I knew it was there I.
00:16:03
Speaker 3: Kind of resisted a book for a while, but eventually I was like, no, this has to be.
00:16:07
Speaker 2: There's so much more here, so much more we couldn't cover.
00:16:10
Speaker 3: And also like I just have sensibilities as someone who writes narrative nonfiction like this feels like my natural story.
00:16:17
Speaker 2: Podcasting never feels natural to me.
00:16:19
Speaker 3: I hate my voice. I really don't like it. Others seem to not mind it, but I just really wanted to write the book. So the audiobook is a really good compromise.
00:16:27
Speaker 2: Because I get to read it. That's great.
00:16:30
Speaker 4: Well, just so you know, I've heard a lot of people comment on your voice on the podcast, and that's one of the sales for it.
00:16:35
Speaker 2: Puts in the sea.
00:16:36
Speaker 4: They say, no, I didn't hear that. You might have heard other things the book does. And I was privileged to be able to read an early copy of it and the emotional response that I had to it, both in giggling in the places where you you know, were critiqueing something I wore a setter or something like that. It was very funny. I'd laugh and my wife would say, what now, what did you I need it too?
00:16:59
Speaker 3: I wondered, if I know there's one part in the book where I describe you, and this comes from you, Leo, because you talk about having this mismatched suit that you're borrowing, like a jacket from your dad, pants from Dave the bass player, none of them fit because you don't own a suit. And now you've got this haircut that they've given you in prison. And I think you remember saying something, it's not like something you get it supercuts right, and just feeling like a clown, sort of showing up in front of a jury poping life savers, not realizing your life is on the line and you're being judged and not having any sensibility of that. And I remember seeing this one photograph of you sitting next to your attorney, Jack Edmond, and you kind of look like one of those eighties magicians, you know, like your hair is not quite right. There's the lapels on your suit are kind of big. And I was like, this guy looks like a magician. I'm gonna run away from him. And I thought, man, Leo's got to read this. I wondered if you'd be offended.
00:17:53
Speaker 4: I did, And that's one of the definitely one of the places where I giggled and my wife asked, what is it? And I read it to him. Thank you for that bringing humor to a story that otherwise is extremely emotionally sad. For me.
00:18:05
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean there's not a lot of humor at all.
00:18:07
Speaker 4: Right, right, but you covered that really, really well. I think even listeners of the podcast need to read this book.
00:18:15
Speaker 1: I hope you enjoyed this interview. I can't tell you how nice it was to be speaking to Leo in a studio instead of inside a prison. In the coming weeks, we'll be releasing more excerpts from the Bone Valley audiobook right here. Next week's excerpt will include some behind the scenes moments from our investigation into Jeremy Scott's early years, as well as background from one of the most talked about scenes from the podcast. And if you still can't get enough Bone Valley, the book is available in stores everywhere, and the audiobook version can be found wherever you download your audio books. Please see the show notes for details. Thanks very much for listening, and please keep any out for our next installment of Bone Valley. From the Mic to the Page. The next four excerpts to be released after this first one will be available ad free exclusively on Lava for Good, plus on Apple Podcasts.
