Leadership That Lasts: Paul Thornton on Building Bold, Ethical Leaders in Every Industry

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thinking. Hello, everyone. Okay, this is a live

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and it's with Paul Thornton. And I'm very excited.

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Look at this friendly face right here. So we've

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got today, handsome, gray, and bold, because

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you have to be right. Well, yeah, I mean, you

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don't know me from Adam, I think we met on maybe

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matchmaker .fm. So who's this crazy lady lady

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asking me sending out our calendar and saying

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come on my show. and not asking me who I am.

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That is me. I'm the crazy lady. So I'm really

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excited. I want to make sure that I've got your

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name is perfect. Paul, introduce yourself to

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our lovely audience of one person out there.

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Well, first of all, Adrienne, thank you for having

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me on your podcast. One thought one thing I found

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interesting was your point about no prep needed.

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So You want people to come on and be totally

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real and honest and straightforward and all that.

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So I think that's great. I have spent my career

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focusing on leadership. I have written books

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on it, articles. I've taught classes, seminars.

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I've been in various leadership roles. I think

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it's a fascinating subject. It's something I'm

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passionate about. and it's exciting to talk about

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it, I think. So that's kind of what I've done.

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I'm still writing and reading and learning, and

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I've been a student and teacher my whole life

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of the concept of what it means to be an effective

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leader. Oh, I love that. Okay, let's start with

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the first question. And by the way, what I love

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about doing this is that If I ask you a question

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and you say it's a great question, I get really

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excited about that because I didn't use like

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chat GPT to get me the question or I started

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this 2020 because I wanted to show off my friends.

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And so I was caught like it was like candid conversation,

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showing off my friends and then it just evolved.

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But I learned so much. So before my first question,

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where are you located? Adrian, that is a great

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question. I am located in Situate, Massachusetts.

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It's about 18 miles south of Boston. Oh my gosh.

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Okay, I'm a Connecticut girl. I may be in Daytona

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Beach now, born and raised in Connecticut. And

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I will share with you, one of the things I love

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about that area is I, so I was, I love Chatter.

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It's a social audio app. And Cindy Stumpo, is

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on chatter and she's running rooms. And I don't

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think that people, do you know who Cindy Stumpo

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is, Stumpo Developers? I don't know. Oh my gosh.

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She is an amazing, she's really what, like the

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number one female builder out of Boston in the

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United States. She is, I think it's tough as

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nails, but I love when she comes on and talks

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business. So I think it's so important. But leadership,

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so let's go to the first question. Well, I manage

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my local grocery store. Am I a leader or a manager?

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Well, I think you're both. I think managers focus

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on current methods and procedures and policies

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to get things done. And that's certainly needed,

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right? Leaders want to change something. They

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want to change the structure or the process or

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the vision or something. So I think most people,

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like running a grocery store, you're both manager

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and leader. There's a lot of things you're wanting

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to make sure they run correctly and the process

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works and what have you. But you're thinking

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also about how are things changing in the world?

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My customers, my delivery, what's happening that

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I can better serve my customers? So I think you

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better be thinking about what changes are needed

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and coming along and how can I stay ahead of

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the curve and be effective in what I'm doing.

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Okay, so we're role playing everyone in case

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you're thinking, how does Adrian start working

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at a grocery store? Okay, so keeping up the grocery

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store, which by the way, we need and those are

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social workers. Well, I was asked to lead a team,

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but I don't have any leadership, but I'm not

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really worried about it because I'll use ChatGPT

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and it'll write my whole script up and I can

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become a leader really in the 10 or 15 minutes

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it takes me to get everything on ChatGPT and

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into my Word doc and I'll just read it. Well,

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that's an interesting way to go about it, but

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let me back up. I think leaders need to be very

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clear on what they believe in value. You know,

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your core beliefs and values are your foundation.

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You won't get that from Chad GPT. You need to

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get it from thinking and trying things and reflecting

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and learning and solidifying what is it I fundamentally

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believe in value and I take that with me when

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I lead my team, right? So that's a very important

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starting point for every leader. Every good leader

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I know is clear on their core beliefs and values

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and they have that solid foundation that propels

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them to be influential and make a difference

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in what they do. Okay, we have another question

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here. I am not an actress but I'm gonna play

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one right now. Okay so carrying on the grocery

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store because I just graduated from high school

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and this is a family -owned mom -and -pop grocery

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store and I am like the manager of this grocery

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store they need a leader why can't I lead do

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I someone said something like you shouldn't be

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a leader you're just graduated from high school

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you need more years of experience under my hat

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and I'm like I don't wear a hat I don't need

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experience I just need to share the things that

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I'm learning from other leaders? Well, you need

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to have an understanding of the core drivers

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in a business or whatever it is you're trying

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to lead. So having some understanding of the

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customer, the products, how money is made, profit

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margins, the financial tools you use to analyze

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the business. So there's a lot of content that

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you need to understand to evaluate situations

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and make effective decisions. Some of that you

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gain through experience. Some of you can gain

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through the textbook and taking classes and things

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like that. But you want to make sure a person

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is ready. They have both the background, the

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insights, the experience to lead something like

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a grocery store or something, a company or whatever

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it happens to be, a hockey team, doesn't matter.

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Yeah, so I think that's really important. Okay,

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so then the goal of this fun little role playing,

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at least I had the fun part of it, but the fun

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part of the role playing is that... It really

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is important for managers, for business owners

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to understand what their leaders will look like

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and make sure that they're either training them

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or bringing in a Paul Thornton to train. So what

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does that look like, Paul? So you're called by

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the grocery store. I'm calling you. I'm a manager.

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I don't know, but they want me to lead. He said,

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I have no budget. I mean, I have a good budget.

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I can hire anyone. Would I be calling you and

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saying, can you help me? And what would that

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look like? Well, you could be. There's a lot

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of ways to develop your leadership skills and

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knowledge. I mean, there's all sorts of YouTube

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videos. There's also great articles and books

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and what have you. I think if you put your mind

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to it, you can learn a lot about leading, you

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know, through those avenues. You can learn a

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lot, too, by observing and watching some effective

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leaders. You know, what do they do? How do they

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operate? How do they come across? How do they

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inspire people? What do they do? And I think

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leadership is a lifelong journey. My 11 -year

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-old grandson recently, I thought, had a very

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effective leadership moment. There was a kid

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in his class that was bullying another kid. grandson's

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very confident. So he went up to the bully and

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said, hey, you know what you're doing isn't very

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nice. Joe's a nice kid and you know, why are

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you doing that? And that's not right. And he

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said to him, you need to apologize to Joe for

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what you said. And you sure you shouldn't do

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that, you know, because Joe's a good guy and

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you know, you're a good guy and blah, blah, blah.

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So I was amazed at his courage and his willingness

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to step up and confront this bully, a lot of

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classmates would have, well, they did. They just

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let it slide and said nothing and turned their

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head and, you know, do nothing. And a lot of

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times in life, the leader is the one that steps

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up and says or does something. The non -leader

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is the one that's, you know, no big deal and

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I'm not getting involved or, you know, they walk

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away. So pretty amazing. I love that story because

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he wasn't the innocent bystander. He made sure.

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And that's usually the third party to bullying

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and the bullier, the victim. So love it, love

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it. Congratulate him for me. I think that's great.

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Sometimes I get that, you know, it's funny. I've

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done a lot of like leadership programs. All right.

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So like I've done like leadership, Osceola leadership,

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Orlando leadership, Hollywood leadership, Port

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Orange leadership, Daytona Beach. I love, love,

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love leadership programs. But what I've noticed

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sometimes is that I don't necessarily always

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have to be the one in charge. Could I? Yes, but

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I don't have to feel like, oh my God, I've got

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to gather the people together. Or even on the

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social app called Chatter, I don't always have

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to be the one leading. So it's interesting to

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me. So I'd like your perspective on that because.

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Sometimes people are they just come right in

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and they're like, okay, here's the role We're

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going to take it together and I remember one

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of the leadership programs with dr pepper And

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it was a program that they had for leadership

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hollywood, but it was some role playing involved

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But they they said okay. I want everyone to uh,

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you know pick a leader And then whoever they

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were pointing to to pick a leader, it went on

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to they like they were the one. So if I pointed

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to Susie and said, I think so, Susie should be

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the leader. I would be the one that was picked.

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And I love that. And it just kind of got you

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thinking out of your own mind. But what what

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suggestions do you have as a leader? Do you always

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have to be taking charge? Because can you explain

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that being a leader doesn't necessarily mean

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that you have to take control? Yeah, I think

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you're right. There's different. ways the leaders

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can add value. One type of leader is simply the

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thought leader, right? The person that comes

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up with an idea or insight that's going to help

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the group focus or see things in a new way. So

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sometimes you're in a meeting, you're not leading

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the meeting, but you have some really interesting

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and innovative ideas that you can put on the

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table and that they may take hold and the group

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might say, yeah, that's a great idea, we need

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to do that, blah, blah, blah. There's other times

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when you can be a leader just by setting the

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example. My grandkids play sports and I talk

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to them a lot about setting a good example in

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practice and in games of working hard, being

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prepared, being diligent throughout the whole

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game, that type of thing. There's also the servant

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leader. The servant leader is looking around

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the group and saying, who needs help today? Who

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isn't quite engaged or participating or adding

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value? Maybe asking that person a question. What

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do you think, Susie, about XYZ? Or how do you

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think we should approach that? Getting them involved.

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So there's a lot of different ways you can go

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about influencing the group and engaging them

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and focusing them or you know maybe clarifying

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but getting them to come up with some common

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goals and some common approaches that would make

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sense for them to move forward. So yeah it's

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not the person who's in charge quotes isn't always

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the one leading every minute of the meeting or

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session or seminar or workshop, whatever it might

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be. I love that. It's not the person with the

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loudest voice. Yeah, I think that's great. Okay,

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so to go back to this to go to talk about servant

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leadership for a second, because it's really

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important to me because I didn't know the term

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servant leader. So I am 62. Did you hear that?

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I didn't hear that. 62, 62. Nobody else listen,

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close your ears. No, I'm kidding you. I feel

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like I'm 22. So it doesn't really matter. But

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like, so my point is, is back when my 30s, I

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honestly thought what was wrong with me. And

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growing up in a family business, I think my family

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was like, what is wrong with Adrian? I was always

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like, wait a second. Is she in the right role?

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How can we make her role better? I don't want

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to just give her title and not give her the role.

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Can I work with her to make sure that she's like

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the best in that role? Because one day she may

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want to leave and I want her to be perfect for

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when she leaves for another company. I'm like,

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and they were like, what? Like, because that

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term, how would my parents know when they were

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born in the 30s and started their business 1955,

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they didn't understand age. Nobody understood

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me. And it really was only about 10 years ago,

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I heard the term. And when I heard it, I thought,

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oh my gosh, that really is me. And so for all

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of you that like, can we give some tips for those

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that are servant leaders that don't understand

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it? Actually, it's interesting too, cause I'll

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hear this a lot. I'm a servant leader because

00:14:53.529 --> 00:14:56.450
I volunteer my time in church or I'm a part of

00:14:56.450 --> 00:15:01.090
a nonprofit and that servant word term gets confused

00:15:01.090 --> 00:15:03.730
with a leader. And so a lot of people, I'm not

00:15:03.730 --> 00:15:06.340
even sure really understand it. I think the best

00:15:06.340 --> 00:15:09.320
way I thought of it was you can either be people

00:15:09.320 --> 00:15:12.679
over profits or profits over people. And I tend

00:15:12.679 --> 00:15:15.519
to be that wanting to make sure that person is

00:15:15.519 --> 00:15:17.740
in the best situation, because then they will

00:15:17.740 --> 00:15:19.840
be able to be profitable than putting them in

00:15:19.840 --> 00:15:21.500
a situation where they're not like. So yeah,

00:15:21.500 --> 00:15:23.299
I'm the one that would say, is everyone happy

00:15:23.299 --> 00:15:25.840
in their job? Because if you don't like it, then

00:15:25.840 --> 00:15:28.080
let's see what we can do. But I'd like a little

00:15:28.080 --> 00:15:29.559
bit more drilling, because I feel like there's

00:15:29.559 --> 00:15:32.539
one person out there that really has that question.

00:15:35.070 --> 00:15:38.029
Good topic, good question. But before I answer

00:15:38.029 --> 00:15:43.529
that, I want to tell you that 62 is the new 42.

00:15:44.590 --> 00:15:50.049
And you have more energy and enthusiasm and passion

00:15:50.049 --> 00:15:56.090
than most people I know. So that keeps you very,

00:15:56.090 --> 00:16:00.110
very, very young and energized and focused. But

00:16:00.110 --> 00:16:03.820
back to servant leader. As the term implies,

00:16:04.279 --> 00:16:08.159
it's two words, leading and serving. I think

00:16:08.159 --> 00:16:10.820
sometimes people forget the leading part of it.

00:16:11.539 --> 00:16:15.259
A servant leader is also a leader. They typically

00:16:15.259 --> 00:16:18.840
have a vision or destination, a long -term goal,

00:16:18.940 --> 00:16:23.360
or they have an idea of a better way to proceed.

00:16:23.700 --> 00:16:27.100
So that's kind of, they put that out there. But

00:16:27.100 --> 00:16:32.549
then the serving part is how can I help you achieve

00:16:32.549 --> 00:16:35.950
the vision. What can I do for you? Do you need

00:16:35.950 --> 00:16:39.970
resources? Do you need, I don't know, a clear

00:16:39.970 --> 00:16:43.490
roadmap? What can I do to help you achieve the

00:16:43.490 --> 00:16:49.149
vision? So both are important. Sometimes I find

00:16:49.149 --> 00:16:53.070
leaders forget the serving or helping part of

00:16:53.070 --> 00:16:56.230
the equation. They're good at throwing out the

00:16:56.230 --> 00:16:59.429
challenge or the vision. We wanna increase sales

00:16:59.429 --> 00:17:02.289
by 30 % and we're going to do it in the first

00:17:02.289 --> 00:17:04.609
quarter. And it's like, okay, but how are we

00:17:04.609 --> 00:17:07.349
going to do that? You know, they don't do any

00:17:07.349 --> 00:17:10.849
explaining or serving like, here's a plan. Let's

00:17:10.849 --> 00:17:13.809
talk about this. Or what do you think or together

00:17:13.809 --> 00:17:17.430
come up with a plan? You know, so that's, that's

00:17:17.430 --> 00:17:20.549
where they fall down a bit. I love this. I smiled

00:17:20.549 --> 00:17:23.390
because, uh, oh, your Boston comes out sports

00:17:23.390 --> 00:17:27.809
and important. Park the car in the Harvard yard.

00:17:28.410 --> 00:17:30.329
Yeah, see, we don't we don't have an accent in

00:17:30.329 --> 00:17:33.250
Connecticut between you and New York. But my

00:17:33.250 --> 00:17:36.089
husband actually comes from the boss, like Southbridge

00:17:36.089 --> 00:17:38.309
area. And so the Sturbridge and it's so funny

00:17:38.309 --> 00:17:39.970
because half his family talks like Worcester

00:17:39.970 --> 00:17:43.910
and the other half is like weird. Anyways. OK,

00:17:44.089 --> 00:17:48.099
so so in a company. First of all, what tools,

00:17:48.819 --> 00:17:53.059
what skills do you need to have to start to begin

00:17:53.059 --> 00:17:56.259
to possess leadership skills? What would make

00:17:56.259 --> 00:17:57.740
so? I want to make sure I'm getting my question

00:17:57.740 --> 00:18:01.339
correctly. So I'm young, I graduated from college,

00:18:01.779 --> 00:18:04.460
and I'm excited to go off in the world. And one

00:18:04.460 --> 00:18:07.900
of my goals will be to become a leader in a company.

00:18:08.299 --> 00:18:10.160
How would I go about doing that? What would those

00:18:10.160 --> 00:18:12.970
steps look like for me? Well, as I said earlier,

00:18:13.109 --> 00:18:15.970
one thing you can do is observe other leaders,

00:18:16.250 --> 00:18:19.890
study what they do, how they do it, what's effective,

00:18:20.089 --> 00:18:23.750
what's not effective. But you want to certainly

00:18:23.750 --> 00:18:26.569
develop your skills as well. And we all know

00:18:26.569 --> 00:18:31.390
communications is a critical skill. So working

00:18:31.390 --> 00:18:36.089
on how do you communicate your key ideas, your

00:18:36.089 --> 00:18:40.869
your big points, your big ideas, how do you convey

00:18:40.869 --> 00:18:45.000
them? How do you come across? Do you come across

00:18:45.000 --> 00:18:47.960
as someone who's confident with your convictions?

00:18:48.839 --> 00:18:52.200
As I said earlier, what do you fundamentally

00:18:52.200 --> 00:18:56.119
believe in value and is it clear in your head?

00:18:56.460 --> 00:18:59.000
So working on that I think is really important.

00:19:01.079 --> 00:19:05.779
Being able to influence people and inspire people,

00:19:05.960 --> 00:19:09.279
that's huge. So how do you do that? Well, you

00:19:09.279 --> 00:19:13.819
can appeal to their logical side, present logical

00:19:13.819 --> 00:19:17.619
arguments and rationale why we should do something,

00:19:18.599 --> 00:19:21.319
the facts add up to it or the numbers add up

00:19:21.319 --> 00:19:25.319
to it, we should do this. The emotional side,

00:19:25.420 --> 00:19:27.900
how do I connect with the person emotionally?

00:19:30.579 --> 00:19:34.339
Stories and... experiences I've had and things

00:19:34.339 --> 00:19:38.619
like that, how can I relate that to engage them

00:19:38.619 --> 00:19:42.759
and get them excited about the possibilities

00:19:42.759 --> 00:19:46.400
that I see or we see together? I think that's

00:19:46.400 --> 00:19:51.960
really important. Skills like delegating, that's

00:19:51.960 --> 00:19:54.980
always important. The more you move up an organization,

00:19:55.099 --> 00:19:57.900
the more you have to be an effective delegator.

00:19:58.700 --> 00:20:01.880
Coaching is important, giving people feedback.

00:20:02.490 --> 00:20:05.150
pointing out what they could do to be more effective.

00:20:05.650 --> 00:20:09.329
I think one thing young people can do is volunteer

00:20:09.329 --> 00:20:13.190
to be a coach on your local, you know, football

00:20:13.190 --> 00:20:16.829
team or baseball team or whatever. That gives

00:20:16.829 --> 00:20:21.950
you some real life practice at coaching and,

00:20:21.950 --> 00:20:24.230
you know, leading. I mean, you got a team of

00:20:24.230 --> 00:20:27.089
kids you're leading, you're leading drills and

00:20:27.089 --> 00:20:30.170
practice sessions. but it gives you a lot of

00:20:30.170 --> 00:20:34.089
direct experience of what it's like to influence

00:20:34.089 --> 00:20:38.549
a 13 -year -old boy or girl to understand the

00:20:38.549 --> 00:20:42.329
drill, conduct it effectively, give them feedback,

00:20:42.930 --> 00:20:45.710
point out what they could do to be more effective.

00:20:46.029 --> 00:20:49.730
All those types of things are helpful tools for

00:20:49.730 --> 00:20:52.369
the leader down the road. So I don't know, those

00:20:52.369 --> 00:20:55.269
are some ideas anyway. Beautiful, beautiful.

00:20:55.390 --> 00:20:57.910
It's funny that I used to have not like big out

00:20:57.910 --> 00:21:00.390
arguments, but I would I would argue the fact

00:21:00.390 --> 00:21:02.849
that delegation is so important to my parents

00:21:02.849 --> 00:21:07.329
and the employees that didn't did not delegate

00:21:07.329 --> 00:21:09.329
because they, you know, no, I'm the only one

00:21:09.329 --> 00:21:11.410
that could do it. It's me. It's me. And I'm like,

00:21:11.529 --> 00:21:13.470
mom and dad, that's not a good thing. That's

00:21:13.470 --> 00:21:15.890
not what a leader would do. That's actually the

00:21:15.890 --> 00:21:18.170
opposite, right? You don't want to have that

00:21:18.170 --> 00:21:20.109
person. What if something happens? What if they

00:21:20.109 --> 00:21:22.589
got hit by the proverbial bus? Like that's not,

00:21:22.750 --> 00:21:24.769
and it was hard for them to understand that.

00:21:24.789 --> 00:21:27.269
But I also want to talk about, there's the knowledge

00:21:27.269 --> 00:21:29.930
that you can learn, what you could say and do,

00:21:30.009 --> 00:21:34.430
but what about the things that you're like, not

00:21:34.430 --> 00:21:37.349
verbally, but the cues. And so my question to

00:21:37.349 --> 00:21:39.569
you, Paul, and you can take some time to think

00:21:39.569 --> 00:21:43.960
about this. Do you push your chair in or do you

00:21:43.960 --> 00:21:46.640
leave it out at meetings, at dinners, anytime

00:21:46.640 --> 00:21:49.299
you stand up, are you walking away from your

00:21:49.299 --> 00:21:55.940
chair or do you push it in? I don't know. I think

00:21:55.940 --> 00:21:59.099
I typically sit down in my chair and I pull it

00:21:59.099 --> 00:22:03.039
in a little bit. When you get up from your chair,

00:22:03.259 --> 00:22:05.160
are you putting it back where it was? When I

00:22:05.160 --> 00:22:09.099
get up from my chair, I move it back. Okay, so

00:22:09.099 --> 00:22:11.680
I wrote an article about that because it's interesting

00:22:11.680 --> 00:22:14.539
to me. Well, I am a corporate etiquette educator,

00:22:14.859 --> 00:22:16.700
so my company's professional global etiquette.

00:22:16.920 --> 00:22:20.660
But I see that so much and it drives me crazy.

00:22:21.079 --> 00:22:23.180
And I think I've always been like, you get up

00:22:23.180 --> 00:22:24.779
from your chair. I mean, didn't we learn that

00:22:24.779 --> 00:22:26.880
in kindergarten? When you get up from your chair,

00:22:27.039 --> 00:22:29.400
put your chair back in. But then when I compare

00:22:29.400 --> 00:22:31.960
it to the leadership skills and how important

00:22:31.960 --> 00:22:34.099
is that when people see you doing that, they're

00:22:34.099 --> 00:22:36.099
more apt to doing it. It's like some of those

00:22:36.099 --> 00:22:41.079
quiet cues of four leaders. I know when I run

00:22:41.079 --> 00:22:44.140
a room or a workshop or zoom, I like people to

00:22:44.140 --> 00:22:46.819
raise their hand because I'm a hand raiser. I

00:22:46.819 --> 00:22:48.799
don't want to talk at the same time and interrupt

00:22:48.799 --> 00:22:51.240
someone that just feels. funny to me. I'm not

00:22:51.240 --> 00:22:54.900
comf being a hand raiser. What a hand raiser

00:22:54.900 --> 00:23:01.119
or just kind I am a hand raiser. I used teacher

00:23:01.119 --> 00:23:07.079
and I would requir their hand before they ma

00:23:07.079 --> 00:23:14.140
a little more structure to and even board meetings.

00:23:14.400 --> 00:23:16.420
I like to have like a queue. Okay, Mike, I've

00:23:16.420 --> 00:23:18.140
got you next. John, you're going to be after

00:23:18.140 --> 00:23:20.660
Mike and Sally, you'll be third. So go ahead,

00:23:20.759 --> 00:23:23.000
Mike. And then you, yeah. So it's so interesting

00:23:23.000 --> 00:23:25.559
structure. Yep. I structure. Look, can we have

00:23:25.559 --> 00:23:27.660
a little fun? Can we talk about other cues? Because

00:23:27.660 --> 00:23:30.539
sometimes it's not all about the verbal. So give

00:23:30.539 --> 00:23:32.359
me one, give me one that you think is like a

00:23:32.359 --> 00:23:34.480
nonverbal, but that kind of shows you're the

00:23:34.480 --> 00:23:37.279
leader. Well, I think one thing is where the

00:23:37.279 --> 00:23:43.069
leader sits in the room. You know, um, In some

00:23:43.069 --> 00:23:46.150
situations I've been in, the leader always sits

00:23:46.150 --> 00:23:49.630
in the same seat. It's like the power seat at

00:23:49.630 --> 00:23:52.730
the end of the long table. They're in the power

00:23:52.730 --> 00:23:55.690
seat, and everyone else are on the table. Now,

00:23:55.690 --> 00:24:00.430
I had another manager, and he would move around.

00:24:00.490 --> 00:24:03.109
He would sit on the side sometimes, and he'd

00:24:03.109 --> 00:24:06.690
sit down the end or on the corner. And I thought

00:24:06.690 --> 00:24:10.730
that was kind of interesting. When I was teaching

00:24:10.730 --> 00:24:15.589
class after the first one or two classes, most

00:24:15.589 --> 00:24:18.730
students sat in the same seat for the whole semester.

00:24:19.730 --> 00:24:23.470
I had one student one semester that every class

00:24:23.470 --> 00:24:27.529
he moved around and sat in a different seat and

00:24:27.529 --> 00:24:30.769
he was very motivated to get to know everybody

00:24:30.769 --> 00:24:34.289
in the class and I thought that was really interesting.

00:24:34.680 --> 00:24:38.759
One of the things leaders do, or if we look at

00:24:38.759 --> 00:24:42.220
it this way, there's two focuses of a leader,

00:24:42.319 --> 00:24:46.599
the task and the relationships, right? So this

00:24:46.599 --> 00:24:50.180
particular student was very much into the relationship

00:24:50.180 --> 00:24:53.200
side of the equation and wanted to get to know

00:24:53.200 --> 00:24:55.759
everyone in the class, and he did. And he was

00:24:55.759 --> 00:24:59.680
very popular, and he connected well with people,

00:24:59.799 --> 00:25:03.390
and that was definitely his strength. So that's

00:25:03.390 --> 00:25:05.910
kind of one thing that's interesting is where

00:25:05.910 --> 00:25:10.589
people sit. And another thing is, when do people

00:25:10.589 --> 00:25:13.470
speak, when does the leader speak up in the meeting?

00:25:13.990 --> 00:25:16.910
Do they wait until everyone's had a chance to

00:25:16.910 --> 00:25:20.430
give their view? Or are they typically the first

00:25:20.430 --> 00:25:24.390
one to say, I think we should do X, Y, Z? That's

00:25:24.390 --> 00:25:27.640
kind of an interesting approach. A lot of the

00:25:27.640 --> 00:25:30.299
talk these days is the leader should wait and

00:25:30.299 --> 00:25:32.960
hear from everyone else and then be the last

00:25:32.960 --> 00:25:36.740
one to speak, so to speak. So that's another

00:25:36.740 --> 00:25:39.140
one. What about you? Any others that you've observed?

00:25:39.940 --> 00:25:43.099
I think as a leader that leaders, you should

00:25:43.099 --> 00:25:47.720
always have a pad of paper and a pen and be actively

00:25:47.720 --> 00:25:50.839
listening and writing notes. And if you have

00:25:50.839 --> 00:25:53.559
a pad of paper pen, everyone else around you

00:25:53.559 --> 00:25:55.440
will have a pad and paper pen. So if you're running

00:25:55.440 --> 00:25:58.859
a meeting, make sure that you have, even at the

00:25:58.859 --> 00:26:01.799
very worst, it's a hotel memo pad with a pen,

00:26:01.859 --> 00:26:03.640
at least have something at everyone's plates.

00:26:03.660 --> 00:26:05.380
Cause a lot of times people aren't thinking.

00:26:06.019 --> 00:26:09.000
And my dad always taught me as a leader, do it

00:26:09.000 --> 00:26:12.160
now. Don't just talk about something, do it,

00:26:12.180 --> 00:26:14.299
do it quickly. He would give me directions. I

00:26:14.299 --> 00:26:16.059
would say, okay, I'm going back to my office

00:26:16.059 --> 00:26:18.180
to do it. And I just can picture my dad, a mellow

00:26:18.180 --> 00:26:20.599
colleague. I've kind of missed my parents. And

00:26:20.599 --> 00:26:23.049
my dad would say, where are you going? And I'm

00:26:23.049 --> 00:26:25.670
like back to my office and my dad would say there's

00:26:25.670 --> 00:26:28.819
a desk and a phone right here, like, I don't

00:26:28.819 --> 00:26:30.839
understand, Adrian. Sit down and make the call,

00:26:30.900 --> 00:26:32.380
and then we could talk about it afterwards. I

00:26:32.380 --> 00:26:35.140
mean, he taught me right after college. I really

00:26:35.140 --> 00:26:38.160
got some of the best training. My dad was definitely

00:26:38.160 --> 00:26:41.819
a leader, didn't graduate from college, but understood

00:26:41.819 --> 00:26:45.099
and had a lot of empathy, and my mom was really

00:26:45.099 --> 00:26:48.119
HR, and so she taught me, too. But those things

00:26:48.119 --> 00:26:51.160
combined were really important. Also, as a leader,

00:26:51.400 --> 00:26:53.980
I think I agree with you, listening, like just...

00:26:53.920 --> 00:26:57.099
listening, how many people, how many of you have

00:26:57.099 --> 00:26:59.019
seen leaders where you're around the table and

00:26:59.019 --> 00:27:03.359
they're distracted? Or you go into their office

00:27:03.359 --> 00:27:07.059
and they're unable to step away from the computer

00:27:07.059 --> 00:27:10.440
and look directly at you and have a conversation.

00:27:11.339 --> 00:27:13.039
And especially those that are like, I have an

00:27:13.039 --> 00:27:15.079
open door policy, come in any time. And then

00:27:15.079 --> 00:27:18.140
when you walk in, That's a weird open door policy.

00:27:18.440 --> 00:27:20.640
Does that mean I could come in, but I'm not going

00:27:20.640 --> 00:27:23.599
to be heard, right? And so I think a leader hears

00:27:23.599 --> 00:27:27.220
people and listens. I agree. And I think along

00:27:27.220 --> 00:27:30.559
that line, Adrienne, just making eye contact

00:27:30.559 --> 00:27:33.680
with the person you're speaking with or listening

00:27:33.680 --> 00:27:38.359
to is really important. And we've all had leaders

00:27:38.359 --> 00:27:40.599
that they're looking at their cell phone, they're

00:27:40.599 --> 00:27:43.200
looking at the computer screen, they're looking

00:27:43.200 --> 00:27:47.420
out the window. No one, you feel like a second

00:27:47.420 --> 00:27:49.640
-class citizen when you're in that environment,

00:27:49.779 --> 00:27:53.680
you know? So that's another thing to keep in

00:27:53.680 --> 00:28:01.279
mind. Your turn. I love Gabes. But corporate

00:28:01.279 --> 00:28:04.460
etiquette really does come. into play too with

00:28:04.460 --> 00:28:07.259
with leaders and making sure I think leaders

00:28:07.259 --> 00:28:10.019
also, you know, set the tone. So I love talking

00:28:10.019 --> 00:28:12.160
about like dining etiquette with leaders and

00:28:12.160 --> 00:28:14.400
how they take care of that. But any other thoughts

00:28:14.400 --> 00:28:18.319
of leaders and like cues that they that they

00:28:18.319 --> 00:28:23.759
do? Well, I think you always want to come across

00:28:23.759 --> 00:28:27.269
as being inclusive. You know, you want to. welcome

00:28:27.269 --> 00:28:30.569
people and make them feel like you're glad they're

00:28:30.569 --> 00:28:32.990
there at the meeting or the conference or whatever

00:28:32.990 --> 00:28:36.349
it might be. I think that's really important.

00:28:38.390 --> 00:28:43.329
Being prepared yourself, knowing people's names.

00:28:43.670 --> 00:28:47.089
If it's a big conference and you've got a big

00:28:47.089 --> 00:28:50.849
organization that you lead, knowing people's

00:28:50.849 --> 00:28:53.170
names and what have you is critically important.

00:28:54.759 --> 00:28:56.519
I don't know those are kind of the ones that

00:28:56.519 --> 00:28:59.880
come to mind. What about this one? So I growing

00:28:59.880 --> 00:29:03.019
up I always heard the term and I saw teachers

00:29:03.019 --> 00:29:06.319
have. Teachers pets they call them right, which

00:29:06.319 --> 00:29:09.160
is a really weird terminology, but but I also

00:29:09.160 --> 00:29:12.819
have seen in business leaders having their own

00:29:12.819 --> 00:29:14.759
favorite person and you can feel it. You can

00:29:14.759 --> 00:29:17.240
see it. You could almost like taste it. You know

00:29:17.240 --> 00:29:20.849
when someone is like. Oh, Sally, Sally's always

00:29:20.849 --> 00:29:23.069
doing everything so perfectly. Great. The rest

00:29:23.069 --> 00:29:25.630
of you. And so leaders should be very conscious

00:29:25.630 --> 00:29:28.930
of not making someone don't, you know, lifting

00:29:28.930 --> 00:29:30.849
someone up is a great thing. Who doesn't want

00:29:30.849 --> 00:29:32.950
to lift someone up, but don't lift people up

00:29:32.950 --> 00:29:37.390
at the sake of lifting others down. Right. Yeah.

00:29:38.609 --> 00:29:41.230
I used to tell my students, you know, one of

00:29:41.230 --> 00:29:42.670
the things you don't want to do as a leader,

00:29:42.829 --> 00:29:45.690
have an in group and an out group. You know,

00:29:45.690 --> 00:29:48.390
the in group is the two or three people you go

00:29:48.390 --> 00:29:51.049
to all the time for their input, their advice,

00:29:51.190 --> 00:29:54.529
their thoughts. And then everybody else is like,

00:29:54.569 --> 00:29:57.809
you might go to them, but oftentimes you don't.

00:29:57.970 --> 00:30:02.690
So you want to have some equality and like I

00:30:02.690 --> 00:30:05.589
say, engage everyone, treat everyone the same.

00:30:06.470 --> 00:30:09.250
I think it's really important in meetings that

00:30:09.250 --> 00:30:11.690
you don't have one or two people dominate the

00:30:11.690 --> 00:30:14.849
meeting on your staff. You get everybody involved.

00:30:15.160 --> 00:30:20.539
Call on people if you have to. You want to appreciate

00:30:20.539 --> 00:30:23.240
the ones that are contributing a lot. Say thank

00:30:23.240 --> 00:30:26.240
you. I really appreciate your comments, but I

00:30:26.240 --> 00:30:28.980
want to hear from Joe or Sue. Sue, what do you

00:30:28.980 --> 00:30:32.960
think we should do here? Engage them and get

00:30:32.960 --> 00:30:36.519
everybody or give everybody an opportunity to

00:30:36.519 --> 00:30:40.039
participate and be part of the goal setting or

00:30:40.039 --> 00:30:42.099
planning or problem solving, whatever you're

00:30:42.099 --> 00:30:44.700
doing. I love that. I love that. You know, the

00:30:44.700 --> 00:30:46.720
key is too, is that if you know that Sally is

00:30:46.720 --> 00:30:48.940
really, really quiet, what I would do is just

00:30:48.940 --> 00:30:50.940
before the meeting, I would just say to Sally,

00:30:51.059 --> 00:30:53.099
do you mind if I call on you? And will that be

00:30:53.099 --> 00:30:56.440
okay? We know that you have so much to put, but

00:30:56.440 --> 00:30:59.220
I know myself how hard it is sometimes, because

00:30:59.220 --> 00:31:03.240
that's why I really recommend that as parents

00:31:03.240 --> 00:31:08.180
and as leaders that we also try to make sure

00:31:08.180 --> 00:31:10.380
like for your 11 year old that they grow up and

00:31:10.380 --> 00:31:12.559
they learn how to like serve on a committee and

00:31:12.559 --> 00:31:14.380
what that looks like and that and that's okay

00:31:14.380 --> 00:31:17.799
and then to encourage you know chairs of boards.

00:31:18.089 --> 00:31:20.910
it's okay to bring someone on that needs to be

00:31:20.910 --> 00:31:23.289
a mentor to bring them on. Or if you are, if

00:31:23.289 --> 00:31:25.529
you're in a board and you're a volunteer and

00:31:25.529 --> 00:31:27.430
you're like, oh, this person's new, offer to

00:31:27.430 --> 00:31:30.089
be their mentor, let them feel comfortable. I

00:31:30.089 --> 00:31:32.269
like literally would, when I first started with

00:31:32.269 --> 00:31:34.170
committees, I would just pick someone. Usually

00:31:34.170 --> 00:31:36.529
they were bankers, so I'm not sure why I wouldn't

00:31:36.529 --> 00:31:38.190
do bankers. Maybe I thought they would throw

00:31:38.190 --> 00:31:40.210
me some samples somewhere along the way, but

00:31:40.210 --> 00:31:42.529
I would just ask, can I be your mentor? And then

00:31:42.529 --> 00:31:44.329
I would just, guys, I'm jokey. I would like settle

00:31:44.329 --> 00:31:46.230
my chair right up to theirs just to bother them

00:31:46.230 --> 00:31:47.769
and goof around for a little bit. that I would

00:31:47.769 --> 00:31:49.750
go back, because I do care about people's space.

00:31:50.210 --> 00:31:52.230
But even that, caring about people's space. So

00:31:52.230 --> 00:31:54.369
I love this, because we could go on and read

00:31:54.369 --> 00:31:56.970
a lot about leadership. So tell me what you do.

00:31:57.009 --> 00:32:00.630
Do you have articles, blogs? What does Paul Thornton

00:32:00.630 --> 00:32:05.230
do to give people your suggestions and ideas?

00:32:05.309 --> 00:32:07.210
But then also, how does someone work with you?

00:32:07.210 --> 00:32:09.970
So I would love that. Yeah. Thanks for asking,

00:32:10.190 --> 00:32:15.119
Adrienne. thing I do a lot of is I write. I write

00:32:15.119 --> 00:32:18.799
articles and books. I've written 25 books, believe

00:32:18.799 --> 00:32:23.279
it or not. So my books are short and to the point.

00:32:23.440 --> 00:32:28.599
Most of them are 50 to 80 pages in length. I

00:32:28.599 --> 00:32:32.759
try to hit on one big idea in the book. They're

00:32:32.759 --> 00:32:36.440
all available on Amazon. They're also very inexpensive.

00:32:36.740 --> 00:32:41.019
They cost anywhere from $2 .99 to $4 .99 type

00:32:41.019 --> 00:32:47.210
thing. I do that. I also speak at conferences

00:32:47.210 --> 00:32:52.210
a few times a year. I'm semi -retired. I don't

00:32:52.210 --> 00:32:54.970
like the word retirement, but I want to stay

00:32:54.970 --> 00:32:59.309
engaged and want to keep contributing. I do training

00:32:59.309 --> 00:33:02.990
programs on occasion. I went to Dubai last year

00:33:02.990 --> 00:33:06.250
to do a training program over there for a company

00:33:06.250 --> 00:33:08.789
that had read one of my books and liked it and

00:33:08.789 --> 00:33:13.599
wanted me to teach the staff on some principles

00:33:13.599 --> 00:33:17.960
on organizational alignment. So I do seminars

00:33:17.960 --> 00:33:20.400
and workshops on occasion. I don't do a lot of

00:33:20.400 --> 00:33:24.859
them, but I do them if a company wants to bring

00:33:24.859 --> 00:33:30.619
me in and do one. I'm on LinkedIn. That's where

00:33:30.619 --> 00:33:35.640
I'm probably most active. I typically try to

00:33:35.640 --> 00:33:38.900
write an article, not an article, but a post.

00:33:39.259 --> 00:33:42.579
once or twice a week on some aspect of leadership.

00:33:42.980 --> 00:33:46.980
So you can get my thoughts there if you're interested.

00:33:48.039 --> 00:33:52.160
But I hope you'll consider two books that I highly

00:33:52.160 --> 00:33:55.660
recommend. I wrote one on leadership styles,

00:33:55.740 --> 00:33:58.740
which I think is really effective. And I wrote

00:33:58.740 --> 00:34:02.400
one on the leadership process. That i think is

00:34:02.400 --> 00:34:05.400
good as well and the third one i wrote was on

00:34:05.400 --> 00:34:08.219
organizational alignment which is a topic that

00:34:08.219 --> 00:34:11.480
doesn't get a lot of time and attention but it's

00:34:11.480 --> 00:34:15.460
a very important topic i think so those are three

00:34:15.460 --> 00:34:18.460
things that you know might be worth checking

00:34:18.460 --> 00:34:21.929
out so. I'm wowed because I already went on.

00:34:22.170 --> 00:34:24.929
So you can see under the thing books by Paul.

00:34:24.929 --> 00:34:28.050
Wait, why is it hillbilly? No, gosh. Okay. I

00:34:28.050 --> 00:34:30.510
got to delete that comment. My gosh. I'll do

00:34:30.510 --> 00:34:32.809
it when I'm off because that was kind of weird

00:34:32.809 --> 00:34:35.150
to me. It was the wrong book. Amazon. When I

00:34:35.150 --> 00:34:36.949
went on there. Wait, hold on. I have it right

00:34:36.949 --> 00:34:40.230
here. Paul's book. So these leadership styles,

00:34:40.690 --> 00:34:42.789
leadership case studies for teachers and seminar

00:34:42.789 --> 00:34:46.389
leaders. Awesome. Yeah. Leadership process is

00:34:46.389 --> 00:34:48.630
the other one. The leadership process is the

00:34:48.630 --> 00:34:51.780
one I wrote. That's so I'm gonna do this. I want

00:34:51.780 --> 00:34:54.739
to go in and get your name as the author and

00:34:54.739 --> 00:34:58.059
then get your author page Here we go. Here we

00:34:58.059 --> 00:35:00.199
go. Here we go. Okay. Hold on everyone because

00:35:00.199 --> 00:35:03.480
let me put this in the stream yard I wasn't not

00:35:03.480 --> 00:35:05.039
focused but I just want to make sure because

00:35:05.039 --> 00:35:08.599
it's gonna take maybe about three weeks to process

00:35:08.599 --> 00:35:12.880
to For this to go into a podcast. There we go.

00:35:12.880 --> 00:35:17.030
That is it. That's the water great I love that.

00:35:17.489 --> 00:35:20.849
So when you're writing, is there something that

00:35:20.849 --> 00:35:23.329
inspired you that's like, oh, I'm going to write

00:35:23.329 --> 00:35:26.050
about this? Or is it more that you kind of have

00:35:26.050 --> 00:35:28.050
all your topics set up and you're kind of doing

00:35:28.050 --> 00:35:30.510
topics? Because I am curious about that. Well,

00:35:33.489 --> 00:35:39.730
what I try to do is come up with a relevant topic

00:35:39.730 --> 00:35:44.099
that I think will help managers and leaders be

00:35:44.099 --> 00:35:48.079
more effective and I try to come up with some

00:35:48.079 --> 00:35:53.340
some way of simplifying things to make it practical

00:35:53.340 --> 00:35:58.579
and usable and my books like I say they're they're

00:35:58.579 --> 00:36:01.519
pretty simple and clear but I think they're very

00:36:01.519 --> 00:36:06.619
useful and helpful to people you know I think

00:36:06.619 --> 00:36:11.269
that's important so um I don't know. Like right

00:36:11.269 --> 00:36:13.769
now, this morning, I was writing something on

00:36:13.769 --> 00:36:17.150
delegating, which is something that, you know,

00:36:17.210 --> 00:36:19.650
there's been a lot of things written on it. There's

00:36:19.650 --> 00:36:21.730
been a lot of books and articles and what have

00:36:21.730 --> 00:36:24.829
you. But I try to come up with what would be

00:36:24.829 --> 00:36:30.150
a useful angle or way to, you know, state it

00:36:30.150 --> 00:36:33.769
that people could get the message in a one page,

00:36:33.769 --> 00:36:39.349
you know, 500 word article type thing. When I

00:36:39.349 --> 00:36:41.570
taught, I used to teach principles of management

00:36:41.570 --> 00:36:45.889
and when I started teaching, I had to use a certain

00:36:45.889 --> 00:36:49.650
textbook and the textbook was like 500 pages

00:36:49.650 --> 00:36:54.210
long. I was like, you don't need 500 pages to

00:36:54.210 --> 00:36:56.570
teach someone how to be a manager. So I ended

00:36:56.570 --> 00:37:00.530
up writing my own book, which was like 120 pages

00:37:00.530 --> 00:37:04.389
and it had 20 chapters in it. And again, my idea

00:37:04.389 --> 00:37:07.949
is boiling it down, simplifying it, making it

00:37:07.949 --> 00:37:13.090
clear. So a student could read 10 pages and get

00:37:13.090 --> 00:37:16.570
an idea of what you need to do to be an effective

00:37:16.570 --> 00:37:20.050
delegator or run an effective meeting or whatever

00:37:20.050 --> 00:37:23.750
happens to the big. So that's kind of what I

00:37:23.750 --> 00:37:26.690
try to do. I love that. I love that. I also think

00:37:26.690 --> 00:37:28.289
when I think of leaders, I think that they don't

00:37:28.289 --> 00:37:32.489
interrupt. And I know how difficult it is if

00:37:32.489 --> 00:37:34.949
someone's going on, but then set the rules beforehand,

00:37:35.110 --> 00:37:36.969
right? Like say, we're gonna ask you for a minute

00:37:36.969 --> 00:37:40.869
or two, because otherwise some people will take

00:37:40.869 --> 00:37:43.909
over. But if you are looking to be noticed by

00:37:43.909 --> 00:37:47.449
the leader, state your case and then stop talking.

00:37:48.110 --> 00:37:51.210
Because I think as myself as a leader, as I have

00:37:51.210 --> 00:37:54.260
a committee around me, will know you start to

00:37:54.260 --> 00:37:56.719
know like okay this person cannot deliver and

00:37:56.719 --> 00:37:58.480
communicate effectively because they're saying

00:37:58.480 --> 00:38:02.139
the same thing over and over and Over and one

00:38:02.139 --> 00:38:04.320
more time over again, right? Yeah, I think that's

00:38:04.320 --> 00:38:07.070
really that's really important And it's funny,

00:38:07.289 --> 00:38:09.150
I just wrote, I don't even know how to pronounce

00:38:09.150 --> 00:38:10.630
his name, but I thought it was so interesting.

00:38:10.929 --> 00:38:15.670
The NFL draft fumble, Shador Sanders, am I saying

00:38:15.670 --> 00:38:17.230
his first name correctly? Shador, yeah, yeah,

00:38:17.230 --> 00:38:19.389
I think so, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I mean, I think

00:38:19.389 --> 00:38:21.789
that there was a lot of etiquette lessons in

00:38:21.789 --> 00:38:23.889
what he was doing, so I like to myself include

00:38:23.889 --> 00:38:27.449
like the etiquette lessons along with leadership

00:38:27.449 --> 00:38:29.929
style, because I just, there's so much, I love

00:38:29.929 --> 00:38:32.550
this conversation, I just love it. I think it's

00:38:32.550 --> 00:38:36.429
great. I think that the goal for us though is

00:38:36.429 --> 00:38:41.989
to produce a new generation of leaders. And Seth

00:38:41.989 --> 00:38:44.550
Green, who I admire a lot from Market Domination

00:38:44.550 --> 00:38:48.050
LLC says, I love this one, but he says, be where

00:38:48.050 --> 00:38:50.670
your feet are. And his wife had it on. She has

00:38:50.670 --> 00:38:52.889
whiny palooza podcast I produced for them. I

00:38:52.889 --> 00:38:55.909
literally love it. But one of the things is that

00:38:55.909 --> 00:38:58.349
be where you are. So for our next generation,

00:38:58.789 --> 00:39:03.230
be very careful. Listen. Don't interrupt. Interrupting

00:39:03.230 --> 00:39:07.190
is a bad habit. So teaching, I just feel like

00:39:07.190 --> 00:39:09.610
that part of it to make sure that these kids

00:39:09.610 --> 00:39:12.449
understand how important it is to learn how to

00:39:12.449 --> 00:39:17.110
have dialogue back and forth. We have, my wife

00:39:17.110 --> 00:39:20.670
and I have five grandsons and their ages are

00:39:20.670 --> 00:39:25.849
from 10 to 17. And our house in situ, it's on

00:39:25.849 --> 00:39:28.090
the water and we have a boat and what have you.

00:39:28.110 --> 00:39:30.650
So they come down here for a week or longer in

00:39:30.650 --> 00:39:33.949
the summertime. And each summer we try to work

00:39:33.949 --> 00:39:38.929
on one interpersonal skill that will help them

00:39:38.929 --> 00:39:42.219
in their. life and career and being a leader.

00:39:42.860 --> 00:39:46.119
So one summer we worked on making eye contact.

00:39:46.440 --> 00:39:50.400
And then the next summer we worked on asking

00:39:50.400 --> 00:39:54.119
effective questions. And each night at dinner,

00:39:54.119 --> 00:39:56.340
we would say to them, you know, what questions

00:39:56.340 --> 00:40:00.380
do you have for us? We wanted them to be curious

00:40:00.380 --> 00:40:04.900
and, you know, probe and ask questions. And the

00:40:04.900 --> 00:40:07.460
week didn't start it out. start out so great.

00:40:07.500 --> 00:40:10.079
They really didn't have much on Monday. But by

00:40:10.079 --> 00:40:12.699
the time Friday came, they were asking like three,

00:40:12.699 --> 00:40:15.519
four or five questions and they were very curious.

00:40:15.599 --> 00:40:18.880
And, you know, so they really get into it. You

00:40:18.880 --> 00:40:22.579
know, so we we've been thinking about what are

00:40:22.579 --> 00:40:26.360
we going to focus on this summer? You know, I

00:40:26.360 --> 00:40:29.599
like the idea of being present and being in the

00:40:29.599 --> 00:40:33.400
moment and being attentive to the group or the

00:40:33.400 --> 00:40:35.659
person you're with. I think that's an important

00:40:36.260 --> 00:40:39.940
leadership trade as well. So, we're working on

00:40:39.940 --> 00:40:43.119
them. Thank you, Seth, for that. Another thing,

00:40:43.760 --> 00:40:46.519
just two more words. A leader puts their ego,

00:40:46.559 --> 00:40:49.780
they check their ego at the door, correct? Well,

00:40:49.780 --> 00:40:53.239
I don't know. I think a leader has an ego because

00:40:53.239 --> 00:40:56.280
I think they're clear on what they believe and

00:40:56.280 --> 00:40:59.840
value and they know what they think is important.

00:41:00.000 --> 00:41:02.860
So, I don't think there's anything wrong with

00:41:02.860 --> 00:41:06.940
having an ego. I think Having an ego is good

00:41:06.940 --> 00:41:10.320
as long as you don't become arrogant and condescending

00:41:10.320 --> 00:41:13.039
and think you know you have all the answers and

00:41:13.039 --> 00:41:18.579
all that that's bad, you know, but having a strong

00:41:18.579 --> 00:41:23.280
point of view something you believe in and A

00:41:23.280 --> 00:41:27.059
core conviction you have I think is good. I think

00:41:27.059 --> 00:41:30.480
we need it. We need leaders who are willing to

00:41:30.650 --> 00:41:34.670
state what they believe and stand up for it and,

00:41:34.670 --> 00:41:38.530
you know, make their case, but also be open and

00:41:38.530 --> 00:41:40.710
humble and listen to what the other person's

00:41:40.710 --> 00:41:44.610
got to say. So that's the way I look at it. I

00:41:44.610 --> 00:41:46.829
love confident leaders. I don't necessarily like

00:41:46.829 --> 00:41:49.110
when they're like, you know, sharing, you know,

00:41:49.170 --> 00:41:51.230
oh, last weekend I was on the boat and the blah,

00:41:51.389 --> 00:41:55.130
blah, blah. First class and, you know, like when

00:41:55.130 --> 00:41:57.369
I think of ego, I think of that. And then we

00:41:57.369 --> 00:41:59.329
should go out with the most important to me.

00:41:59.349 --> 00:42:03.030
Cause again, my parents taught me this. People

00:42:03.030 --> 00:42:06.909
out there, Paul's going to tell you, stop saying

00:42:06.909 --> 00:42:09.929
how busy you are. You are not helping yourself.

00:42:10.130 --> 00:42:13.630
Do leaders say, start, I'm so swamped everyone.

00:42:13.630 --> 00:42:16.150
I am so busy. Like, is that what a leader would

00:42:16.150 --> 00:42:23.849
say? No, no. Leaders should be in control and

00:42:23.849 --> 00:42:31.150
calm and clear. And if you're hectic and busy

00:42:31.150 --> 00:42:33.849
and going in 19 different directions, you're

00:42:33.849 --> 00:42:38.030
not conveying the presence you need. to make

00:42:38.030 --> 00:42:43.190
an impact, you know? I think it's like the trickle

00:42:43.190 --> 00:42:46.230
down effect. If the leader is telling you that

00:42:46.230 --> 00:42:49.289
they're so busy all the time, then why are your

00:42:49.289 --> 00:42:50.929
employees are going to tell you how busy they

00:42:50.929 --> 00:42:54.210
are too? If the leader is coming in at 10 and

00:42:54.210 --> 00:42:56.489
leaving at two, even though the work hours are

00:42:56.489 --> 00:42:59.110
nine to five, you don't know what's happening

00:42:59.110 --> 00:43:01.329
during that time. Like that to me is a problem.

00:43:01.349 --> 00:43:04.989
I've had leaders that do exactly that. And I'm

00:43:04.989 --> 00:43:07.380
like, Where are you? But then they will come

00:43:07.380 --> 00:43:09.519
in. When their leaders come in, all of a sudden

00:43:09.519 --> 00:43:11.489
they're like working the full day. Like, wait

00:43:11.489 --> 00:43:14.329
a second. So I think that a lot of leadership

00:43:14.329 --> 00:43:16.230
lessons are what we've learned in kindergarten.

00:43:17.989 --> 00:43:20.349
I really do all the things that we learned at

00:43:20.349 --> 00:43:22.269
kindergarten. Paul, I really enjoyed talking

00:43:22.269 --> 00:43:24.150
to you today. I love this because I had no idea

00:43:24.150 --> 00:43:26.550
who you are. Everyone's like, aren't you scared?

00:43:28.130 --> 00:43:30.530
I'm like, I've had over 250 interviews, maybe

00:43:30.530 --> 00:43:33.530
300. I've never had anyone. I say no religion

00:43:33.530 --> 00:43:36.920
and no politics. Otherwise. I'm having the best

00:43:36.920 --> 00:43:39.079
guest and you are one of I really enjoyed this

00:43:39.079 --> 00:43:42.820
conversation. Yeah, I have to. Yeah, and so OK,

00:43:42.920 --> 00:43:45.760
so I'm going to now become your stalker. So I'm

00:43:45.760 --> 00:43:48.219
going to go in. I'm going to follow you on everything.

00:43:48.820 --> 00:43:52.199
Sharing everything to have it. I I think you're

00:43:52.199 --> 00:43:54.400
amazing and if I can recommend you, I'm going

00:43:54.400 --> 00:43:56.219
to recommend you. You are. You are brilliant.

00:43:56.280 --> 00:43:59.719
You have a nice calm way about you too. So thank

00:43:59.719 --> 00:44:02.530
you know you're amazing. Thank you. Thank you.

00:44:02.789 --> 00:44:04.949
Everyone, thank you for watching. I really enjoyed

00:44:04.949 --> 00:44:06.889
this conversation. I will talk to you later.

00:44:07.230 --> 00:44:09.630
So this will stay up. I'll produce a podcast.

00:44:09.789 --> 00:44:12.289
I'll tag you, but you'll see. Why is Adrian Barker

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just following me like a little puppy? All right.

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Have a great rest of the day. Thank you so much.

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Thanks, Adrian. You're the best. Oh, you are.

00:44:19.769 --> 00:44:21.610
Thank you. Bye, everyone. Thanks so much. It

00:44:21.610 --> 00:44:26.590
was fun. This is great, Paul. I absolutely loved

00:44:26.590 --> 00:44:26.949
every.