513. Why Independent Podcasters Are Losing Control

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Well, good morning podcasters.
Today is Friday, May 6th, 2020

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sixth and this morning we're
joined by long time podcasting

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leader Rob Greenlee.
We're going to start this

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current conversation around
podcasting 2 Point O and his

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fringe comment.
We're going to give Rob some

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space to share his perspective.
Then we're going to dig into AI

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content, video podcasting, trust
in new media and finish with our

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wins of the week.
So if you're listening on

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Clubhouse, hit the share button,
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However Clubhouse selects you.

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If you want to do on this live
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podcast, YouTube, LinkedIn,
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here.
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Well, good morning everyone and
welcome to the show for Friday,

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May 8th.
Mark is away this morning

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traveling to his son's
graduation, so we want to send

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him some congratulations for
him, his son, and the whole

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family.
It's a big life moment and we're

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happy for both of them.
Now don't forget on Monday,

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we're going to go to our
Obsession Worthy podcast with

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Jonathan.
This week we're going to be

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talking about 99% Invisibles,
the Roman Mars Mazda virus, and

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you can find that at
podcastingmorningshow.com/OWP.

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Now our guest this morning is
Rob Greenlee.

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Rob has been part of podcasting
and new media through a lot of

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different chaters, early
podcasting as well as creator

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strategy, hosting, monetization,
video, and now the impact of AI

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and trust in media.
Now before we get into Rob's

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background and a bigger future
of podcasting conversation, I

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want to start with something
current.

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Rob has recently been in the
middle of a pretty intense

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discussion in the podcasting
community around podcasting, 2

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point O and the use of the word
fringe.

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Now like I said, my point of
view, I feel like some of the

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reaction has not always been
given Rob the benefit of the

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doubt and I don't want today to
be a pile one session in either

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direction.
But I do want to give Rob a fair

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place to speak for himself.
I want him to be able to explain

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what he meant, what he didn't
mean, and what he thinks the

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community can learn from this.
So Rob, before we talk about the

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future of podcasting, I want to
give you space to address the

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current conversation around your
podcasting 2 point O comments.

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What do you want people to
understand, Rob?

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Yeah.
So I wanted to talk about that.

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That show was really trying to
discuss the whole long journey

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of the podcasting 2 Point O
project and all of the tags that

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are involved in that project.
It's basically a a new kind of

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kind of feed kind of set of
features and of which many of

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them or most of them have never
been adopted and and also others

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that were great ideas and
everything like that, but they

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never got really accepted by any
of the players in the industry.

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Now certainly that isn't to say
that the whole podcasting 2

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Point O project has been a
failure or anything like that.

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I wasn't trying to imply that.
But the comment was really in,

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in regards to that fringe
comment really just wasn't the

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appropriate word or wasn't
really the right word to use.

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But it was really to describe a
lot of the new tag

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recommendations that that are in
there that have not been really

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embraced by the broader industry
over like maybe, you know, four

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or five years.
And so it's great that they're

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there and everything.
And there has been some

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successes like with the chapters
and transcripts and some of the

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platforms you embracing the
alternative enclosure tag and a

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few other things like the, you
know, like pot roll type

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features and things like that.
So there there has been some

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benefit to the Podcasting 2
Point O project that there's no

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question about it.
But really, that fringe comment

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came from trying to describe how
big companies have viewed the

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Podcasting 2 Point O project.
Because all of them have known

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about it, but they haven't chose
let's.

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Let's do something right now
because a lot of people hear the

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word podcasting 2 point O and
they're like, I have no idea

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what you're talking about.
So let's zoom out a little bit

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and go to like 30,000 feet.
And because I know Dr. and I

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were talking about this before
the show, explain to us in as

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simple as you can terms what
they mean or what people mean

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when they say podcasting 2 point
O so that everyone can

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understand exactly what we're
talking about here.

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Yeah, I think it's a pretty
simple concept, but it does

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involve some.
It's really a geeky thing in the

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podcasting space, centered
around RSS feed tags, right?

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And so the concept is, well,
let's offer some new ideas in

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what we can offer in RSS.
And that's a really simple

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syndication.
And really at the bottom line,

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it's features and functions that
are turned on or unlocked in the

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RSS feed that are then made
available to the podcasts

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listening apps, right?
So like a chapters tag or you

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know what's called a lit tag,
which is A tag that was

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structured in this new namespace
for RSS that basically enables a

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live streaming link to be put in
the RSS feed.

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So whenever you go live like we
are right now on Clubhouse, that

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would signal to the podcast app
that there the show that you

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follow or subscribe to has a
live stream that you can click

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on and listen to.
So that's one of the tags.

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And then there's another tag to
called the alternate enclosure,

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which gives you the option to
add different formats of shows

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that you could link to or files
that could be downloaded.

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So like in one RSS feed you
could have a link to an MP4 file

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which is a video.
And then in the other

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alternative, well, there's
primary enclosure and then

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there's the alternate enclosure.
The alternate enclosure could

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have, could create a situation
where an RSS feed has a link to

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an audio and a video file that's
just one tag out of maybe 25 or

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30 tags that are recommended in
the namespace that the

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Podcasting 2 Point O project has
put forward.

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And also ability to do
microtransactions using

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Satoshi's that is linked up with
with Bitcoin.

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And I think this conversation
about the Podcasting 2 Point O

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project is a very technical
discussion that is only relevant

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to everyday podcasters from the
standpoint of, well, those are

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features and functions that we,
we as an industry would like to

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have in the podcast apps and
also thus in the listening apps.

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So there's hosting, there's the
hosting side like Lipson or bus

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route, whatever.
And then there's the listening

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app side.
And so the hosting side has to

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embrace these tags in their
platform to create like fields

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that need to be filled out in
the platform that you can

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populate in order to get that
function and feature into a

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listening app and those
listening apps.

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And that could be like a Spotify
or an Apple or an Overcast or

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any of these consumption apps.
We need to embrace those tags at

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all.
I mean, you can have them in

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your RSS feed if you want, but
it doesn't mean that anybody's

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going to utilize them.
Because if the listening apps

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don't embrace that functionality
that is available inside of the

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RSS feed, then it doesn't get
used.

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And I think.
That's really the whole point,

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right?
I mean, is, and I think that's

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what you were getting at.
Now, Rob, I want to pivot back a

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little bit.
You've been around podcasting

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and new media through a lot of
its major areas.

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You've seen the early RSS days,
the rise of platforms, hosting

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companies, monetization, now
video and AI.

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And I think that gives you a
pretty unusual vantage point.

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So I want you to take us back a
little nostalgia, if you will.

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What was the first moment you
realized podcasting was going to

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matter?
Well, it's been a evolution over

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22 years because when it first
happened, Adam Curry kind of

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created a big splash about it.
He was creating a buzz about a

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new medium that really a lot of
hype at the time.

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It wasn't.
That's the honest comment about

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it.
Because when I got started, I

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was mainly on the radio and I
was also doing a lot of direct

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downloads of MP3 files, not to
any kind of podcast app, but

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other platforms or making it
available just off my website

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site.
And so at the time, it really

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wasn't that big of a deal.
It had a very small chunk of my

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audience.
I was also up on satellite radio

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at the time with XM.
So it was a very small part of

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my content experience, but it
just grew slowly over time.

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It was the growth of consumption
of podcasting has grown about

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anywhere from 2 1/2 to 4% growth
every year on the consumption

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side.
So it's been a very slow growing

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medium.
So it wasn't a big deal for me.

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It was just one of those things,
you know, I, it was just as

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simple as me adding an enclosure
tag to my RSS feed that was

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associated with my blog at the
time.

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And so it just steadily grew
over many years.

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It's really, it's happened and
it's become, you know, something

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that is part of popular culture
now.

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And it's a word that refers to
lots of different kinds of audio

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and video medium.
And when podcasting started,

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podcasting was an audio and
video medium from the very early

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years.
It's a journey that has been

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fraught with a lot of
frustration and a lot of

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challenging situations.
I used to work at Microsoft and

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ran the Zoom podcasting platform
for seven years.

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And that was in the early years.
And that's when we were pushing

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to tell people what a podcast
even was.

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Most people didn't know what a
podcast was.

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And so when you were out there
talking about there, you say,

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well, I have a podcast and they
get a puzzle look on their face.

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What is a podcast?
So this has been a progression

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that's been going on.
It's just that now we've reached

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pretty much mass adoption and
mass awareness that's pushing 80

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plus percent of the population
is aware of what a podcast is.

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Now, I agree with you and
actually I'm going to ask you

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the question everybody gets in a
big debate about, and that is,

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do you still think the heart of
podcasting is RSS?

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And I asked that because, and I
know James Credlin actually

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quoted you this morning.
I was listening to the Pod

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Newsweek review and what Spotify
is apparently, apparently doing

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now is they're actually breaking
the RSS feed as they embrace

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this HLS technology.
So I guess I have two questions

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for you.
What do you do you still think

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the heart of podcasting is RSS
and why is that?

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And the second thing is, do you
have some concerns about this

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HLS actually breaking the
independence and breaking down

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that open source?
Well, it's not so much that HLS

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is going to somehow break RSS.
My concern has really been about

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this slow progression over many
years.

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It started with Anchor, which is
owned by Spotify, in their

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overall dismissal of RSS.
Just more broadly and

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ironically, one of the big
criticism is that has been given

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to RSS is that it hasn't been
innovating enough.

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And Spotify took this position
many years ago with the anchor

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platform that they can do it
better, right?

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So they, Spotify has always been
anti RSS because they want to

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control the content.
If you look at all the other

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types of media that Spotify has
in their platform, it is hosted

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on their servers.
It's directly uploaded to their

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platform, a lot like YouTube,
right?

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The only reason that Spotify is
what's considered to be a pass

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through via RSS right now is
because the industry pushed them

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into it.
And we basically told them that

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they couldn't have our podcast
content unless they signed a

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what's called a pass through
agreement that allows the RSS

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feed to just deliver metadata
right to their platform.

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And that they would have to play
the content off of the links

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that were delivered via RSS.
And that's why we have that

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today.
If you were to submit your show

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to Spotify outside of a podcast
hosting platform right now, you

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would be forced into having your
content hosted and delivered on

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Spotify to the Spotify platform
for them.

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So even though you submitted an
RSS feed to them, they would

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grab all your episodes and they
would rehost that content on

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your behalf.
So there there's been this

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progression over the years of
trying to push RSS kind of

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aside.
And granted YouTube support some

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RSS for their audio ingestion of
podcast right now, but it's not

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00:14:30,680 --> 00:14:33,880
like YouTube is all excited
about it.

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00:14:34,080 --> 00:14:37,280
But it's just the way for them
to get the content.

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00:14:37,280 --> 00:14:40,960
Because if you look at YouTube,
YouTube is just grabbing your

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00:14:40,960 --> 00:14:45,560
media file out of your RSS feed
and re hosting the content on

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00:14:45,560 --> 00:14:48,720
the YouTube platform because
they converted into a video of

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00:14:48,720 --> 00:14:52,480
sorts on their platform because
that's the only form of media

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00:14:52,480 --> 00:14:55,080
that YouTube support reports is
video files.

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00:14:55,560 --> 00:14:59,000
So and then you look at what
Apple just announced is that

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00:14:59,000 --> 00:15:02,760
they announced if you want to
get video into their platform

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00:15:02,760 --> 00:15:10,240
via HLS, it has to be delivered
by the podcast host via an API,

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00:15:10,240 --> 00:15:13,960
which is a similar type of
protocol that was just announced

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00:15:13,960 --> 00:15:18,040
with Spotify.
It's a deliver video content to

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00:15:18,040 --> 00:15:20,240
and the same thing that YouTube
is doing too.

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00:15:20,640 --> 00:15:26,920
Any video file is delivered via
APIs and so unless you go to

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00:15:26,920 --> 00:15:30,480
their platform and upload the
content directly yourself as the

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00:15:30,480 --> 00:15:33,320
podcast host.
But each of the hosts are

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00:15:33,400 --> 00:15:38,640
increasingly adopting API
connections to each of these

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00:15:38,880 --> 00:15:42,520
platforms and that is a
proprietary connection.

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00:15:42,520 --> 00:15:47,680
It's not via RSS.
So there's a progression towards

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00:15:48,240 --> 00:15:52,280
I think to move at least with
the big three players in the

247
00:15:52,280 --> 00:15:56,200
industry, there is a progression
that's been happening over many

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00:15:56,200 --> 00:16:02,120
years to get off of RSS is the
method of delivery to their

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00:16:02,120 --> 00:16:04,760
platform.
That's what James was talking

250
00:16:04,760 --> 00:16:07,320
about today was.
And it's not necessarily about

251
00:16:07,320 --> 00:16:12,520
HLS, but HLS is being used as
almost like a Trojan horse to

252
00:16:12,520 --> 00:16:17,360
get in and disrupt the long term
use of RSS now.

253
00:16:17,480 --> 00:16:19,640
Now, Rob, why do you think
that's an issue?

254
00:16:19,640 --> 00:16:22,400
I think I know why it's an
issue, but what is your sig?

255
00:16:22,400 --> 00:16:24,760
What do you think the issue is
with doing that?

256
00:16:25,480 --> 00:16:28,400
Well, it's really going back to
what the roots of podcasting

257
00:16:28,400 --> 00:16:30,480
are, which is it's an open
medium.

258
00:16:31,120 --> 00:16:35,720
And what the result of this
likely would be over the next

259
00:16:35,960 --> 00:16:38,760
couple of years is that we'll
see a bifurcation in the

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00:16:38,760 --> 00:16:44,560
industry where the top three
podcast consumption apps are

261
00:16:44,560 --> 00:16:48,720
delivered content via API, which
I believe is what they prefer

262
00:16:49,200 --> 00:16:52,880
all three of them.
And then you you have RSS, which

263
00:16:52,880 --> 00:16:57,960
is basically only going to be
able to be used with the smaller

264
00:16:57,960 --> 00:17:02,680
consumption apps.
So like the Overcast or the OR

265
00:17:02,720 --> 00:17:06,640
the Pocket Casts or the
Fountain, those other more

266
00:17:06,640 --> 00:17:11,000
upstart kind of consumption apps
that maybe have anywhere from

267
00:17:11,359 --> 00:17:17,440
maybe 3:00 to 4:00 to less than
one percent of the overall

268
00:17:17,680 --> 00:17:20,520
listening or viewing of
podcasts.

269
00:17:20,880 --> 00:17:24,440
So that's what I see happening
if you look out two years, if we

270
00:17:24,440 --> 00:17:29,440
continue down this progression.
And so it basically takes the

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00:17:29,480 --> 00:17:34,680
open ability of RSS, which is
when you publish it once and it

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00:17:34,680 --> 00:17:39,640
goes everywhere via RSS, it puts
an end to that to some degree.

273
00:17:40,080 --> 00:17:43,200
And I think that's probably
overall bad for podcasting.

274
00:17:43,560 --> 00:17:48,000
But I do think that the ultimate
destination here is that it also

275
00:17:48,000 --> 00:17:52,960
silos monetization into each of
those three big platforms, which

276
00:17:52,960 --> 00:17:56,960
is separate from monetization
that would come from the RSS

277
00:17:56,960 --> 00:17:58,880
feed.
A lot of the hosts have built

278
00:17:59,640 --> 00:18:03,200
what's called programmatic
advertising, which is host

279
00:18:03,200 --> 00:18:06,000
controlled, show controlled
advertising.

280
00:18:06,400 --> 00:18:10,920
And these three big platforms
are increasingly moving us

281
00:18:10,920 --> 00:18:16,200
towards having advertising
that's sold by Spotify in

282
00:18:16,200 --> 00:18:19,600
YouTube.
Now, Apple hasn't done this yet.

283
00:18:19,640 --> 00:18:22,800
Apple is not really an
advertising company, but they

284
00:18:22,800 --> 00:18:29,240
are going to make some money off
of having an APIHLS stream

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00:18:29,240 --> 00:18:33,200
submission that's delivered by
the podcast hosting platform.

286
00:18:33,680 --> 00:18:37,400
And then the hosting platform
can deliver ads into that show.

287
00:18:37,400 --> 00:18:42,960
So Apple has done a better job
of this, of still embracing RSS

288
00:18:43,400 --> 00:18:48,600
for now, but this does open the
door towards them eventually

289
00:18:48,600 --> 00:18:53,240
potentially getting both the
audio and video, since HLS is

290
00:18:53,240 --> 00:18:57,280
also a way to get audio and
video into Apple's platform.

291
00:18:57,280 --> 00:19:01,520
That's the other truth of the
matter too, is because now all

292
00:19:01,520 --> 00:19:04,480
these platforms are building in
the ability to turn the video

293
00:19:04,480 --> 00:19:07,560
off and just listen to the audio
side.

294
00:19:07,560 --> 00:19:12,080
So increasingly users are going
to be listening to the audio

295
00:19:12,080 --> 00:19:16,560
from the video as their audio
podcast experience.

296
00:19:17,120 --> 00:19:23,040
So this is where we start to
part the CS as well, is that

297
00:19:23,040 --> 00:19:25,720
there's going to be audio first
graders, they're going to

298
00:19:25,880 --> 00:19:30,000
continue using RSS, and then
there's going to be video first

299
00:19:30,000 --> 00:19:31,480
graders.
They're going to be putting

300
00:19:31,480 --> 00:19:34,640
video in there, which are going
to be used for the audio and

301
00:19:34,640 --> 00:19:37,720
video.
And this is very geeky and

302
00:19:37,720 --> 00:19:42,120
technical and complicated, but
the audio from the video will

303
00:19:42,120 --> 00:19:47,640
replace, and this is the key
thing, will replace the audio

304
00:19:47,640 --> 00:19:51,680
from the RSS feed.
So that's what Spotify is.

305
00:19:51,760 --> 00:19:53,960
It has been doing for a while
now.

306
00:19:54,520 --> 00:19:57,240
And then what happened?
Now James is just pointing out

307
00:19:57,240 --> 00:20:02,080
this as we move into this new
era, but Spotify is not

308
00:20:02,080 --> 00:20:07,400
embracing HLS.
So they don't embrace video

309
00:20:07,760 --> 00:20:13,200
unless it's sent to them the API
or it's uploaded directly to

310
00:20:13,200 --> 00:20:16,000
them, which is outside of RSS
so.

311
00:20:16,360 --> 00:20:17,880
I hope that yeah, it makes
sense.

312
00:20:17,960 --> 00:20:21,640
But I guess the other concern
though I have is if you get to

313
00:20:21,640 --> 00:20:24,720
the point where there's only
this, a couple of big players

314
00:20:24,920 --> 00:20:29,240
using API keys, then the chances
of you being censored or them

315
00:20:29,240 --> 00:20:31,760
just deciding I don't want you
on my platform anymore.

316
00:20:31,920 --> 00:20:34,800
We've seen a lot of people have
that happen on YouTube.

317
00:20:35,000 --> 00:20:37,120
YouTube just decided, well, we
don't want them on their

318
00:20:37,120 --> 00:20:39,880
platform anymore.
So you get booted off and you

319
00:20:39,880 --> 00:20:42,160
could have an income.
I'm the money guy on the show.

320
00:20:42,360 --> 00:20:44,320
You could have your income
stripped out right from

321
00:20:44,320 --> 00:20:47,160
underneath of you.
And as I understand it, that's

322
00:20:47,160 --> 00:20:50,920
the value of RSS because you
can't really be banned per SE.

323
00:20:50,920 --> 00:20:53,520
I mean, each individual player I
guess, could ban you.

324
00:20:53,720 --> 00:20:55,520
Is that part of the concern here
too, Rob?

325
00:20:56,240 --> 00:21:00,280
That issue is has been with the
Medium all along.

326
00:21:00,360 --> 00:21:05,160
Just because you're in there via
RSS doesn't stop Spotify or any

327
00:21:05,160 --> 00:21:08,520
of these platforms from taking
you out of their catalog or

328
00:21:08,960 --> 00:21:11,600
stripping out episodes.
Now, if you look at YouTube,

329
00:21:11,880 --> 00:21:15,920
they do capture a cache copy of
all your content.

330
00:21:16,200 --> 00:21:19,520
So yeah, they're in the driver's
seat to do whatever they want

331
00:21:19,520 --> 00:21:22,360
with you.
Spotify is a little bit

332
00:21:22,360 --> 00:21:26,720
different, even though they
issue take downs to the podcast

333
00:21:26,720 --> 00:21:32,440
hosts all the time for copyright
violations and was all part of

334
00:21:32,440 --> 00:21:36,400
their terms of service.
So shows get taken down even

335
00:21:36,400 --> 00:21:40,200
with RSS now too.
So this isn't really anything

336
00:21:40,200 --> 00:21:44,000
special on that side.
They will have ultimate control

337
00:21:44,480 --> 00:21:49,760
if the whole industry moves
towards API based syndication

338
00:21:50,200 --> 00:21:53,880
and we eventually nobody
embraces our assess anymore.

339
00:21:53,880 --> 00:21:56,120
Yeah.
I think it does create a

340
00:21:56,120 --> 00:22:02,280
situation where these platforms
can decide to, you know, limit

341
00:22:02,280 --> 00:22:06,520
your ability to be monetized or
take down certain episodes.

342
00:22:07,240 --> 00:22:10,040
But a lot of the ways that
functionality has existed in all

343
00:22:10,040 --> 00:22:13,000
these platforms all along.
Well, that and that leads me to

344
00:22:13,000 --> 00:22:14,880
my next question though.
Do you think, Rob, we're in the

345
00:22:14,880 --> 00:22:17,960
golden age of podcasting?
Do you think we're in a reset or

346
00:22:17,960 --> 00:22:20,600
do you think we're in a category
identity crisis?

347
00:22:21,040 --> 00:22:23,880
And I asked, what do you think
is healthy right now podcasting?

348
00:22:23,880 --> 00:22:25,560
And what do you think is
fragile?

349
00:22:25,960 --> 00:22:28,960
Do you see this as a real
interesting turning point in the

350
00:22:28,960 --> 00:22:31,600
industry with your Hall of Fame
podcast?

351
00:22:31,600 --> 00:22:33,160
You've been doing this for a
long time.

352
00:22:33,280 --> 00:22:35,320
Where do you see the industry
right now, Rob?

353
00:22:36,200 --> 00:22:39,960
I think we are in a transition
time in the industry.

354
00:22:40,040 --> 00:22:45,560
This move by Apple into HLS
streaming is a significant

355
00:22:45,560 --> 00:22:47,680
inflection point in the
industry.

356
00:22:48,080 --> 00:22:51,760
In the early years, video was
delivered in the same way that

357
00:22:51,760 --> 00:22:55,680
the MP3 or the audio was
delivered is a progressive

358
00:22:55,680 --> 00:23:01,880
download playback and Apple
still supports the MP4 delivery

359
00:23:01,880 --> 00:23:06,680
to their platform for viewing.
So I think the big thing here is

360
00:23:06,680 --> 00:23:13,160
this growing threat to the
utilization of RSS because in

361
00:23:13,160 --> 00:23:17,200
the early years of podcasting,
there was a lot of video in the

362
00:23:17,200 --> 00:23:20,360
podcast medium and that's video
delivered via RSS.

363
00:23:20,720 --> 00:23:26,000
And there's been a lot of
criticism of RSS based delivery

364
00:23:26,000 --> 00:23:30,600
of media and it really gets back
to playback performance.

365
00:23:31,120 --> 00:23:35,160
Often times a lot of these big
platforms feel like that the

366
00:23:35,240 --> 00:23:39,720
media that's being delivered by
RSS is not as reliable on the

367
00:23:39,720 --> 00:23:42,760
playback side because they don't
trust the hosting platforms.

368
00:23:43,280 --> 00:23:46,280
Especially if you have a large
video file, it takes a little

369
00:23:46,280 --> 00:23:51,000
bit of time to cache that video
file into the player on Apple

370
00:23:51,480 --> 00:23:55,160
before it starts playing where
HLS starts playing right away.

371
00:23:55,840 --> 00:24:02,680
So it's a, in some ways it's a
increase in the flexibility of

372
00:24:03,200 --> 00:24:07,320
HLS and the ability to deliver
different quality levels too.

373
00:24:07,320 --> 00:24:12,080
So HLS can, it depends on your
player, it depends on your

374
00:24:12,160 --> 00:24:15,800
Internet speed.
It can deliver an appropriate

375
00:24:16,000 --> 00:24:21,080
size video file to your device
for playback that's compatible

376
00:24:21,080 --> 00:24:24,080
with your screen, that's
compatible with your Internet

377
00:24:24,080 --> 00:24:25,960
connection.
So having that streaming

378
00:24:26,400 --> 00:24:30,320
capability is a big upgrade.
But a lot of ways, it comes with

379
00:24:30,320 --> 00:24:34,640
a lot of strings here with the
ability of these platforms to

380
00:24:34,640 --> 00:24:38,480
control this content.
But it does create a better

381
00:24:38,480 --> 00:24:41,800
viewing experience for the
delivery of video.

382
00:24:41,800 --> 00:24:45,120
And I think that's really the
revolution that we're in right

383
00:24:45,120 --> 00:24:46,920
now.
And what really is changing.

384
00:24:47,520 --> 00:24:50,240
And then the other program we
haven't talked about yet is the

385
00:24:50,240 --> 00:24:53,360
changes that are brewing around
AI content.

386
00:24:54,040 --> 00:24:55,760
And I know we're going to talk
about that, too.

387
00:24:55,760 --> 00:24:57,560
Yeah, let's talk about that.
But before we do that, I just

388
00:24:57,560 --> 00:24:59,680
want to ask you one more
question because a lot of the

389
00:24:59,680 --> 00:25:02,200
listeners to this show are
independent creators.

390
00:25:02,600 --> 00:25:06,440
So do you think independent
creators, independent podcasters

391
00:25:06,480 --> 00:25:09,680
are in a better position today
or a harder position right now?

392
00:25:09,680 --> 00:25:12,480
Do you think they're in a better
spot or in a worse spot?

393
00:25:12,480 --> 00:25:13,760
And why do you think that is,
Rob?

394
00:25:15,000 --> 00:25:18,880
Oh, I think it's much more
complicated, much more difficult

395
00:25:18,880 --> 00:25:23,480
to be a podcaster now than it
was even 5 or 10 years ago.

396
00:25:23,640 --> 00:25:26,520
It's so much more complicated.
Each of these platforms, and you

397
00:25:26,520 --> 00:25:30,000
can tell just from what I'm
saying here this morning, is

398
00:25:30,000 --> 00:25:33,400
that trying to comprehend and
understand what these platforms

399
00:25:33,400 --> 00:25:36,640
are trying to do takes a lot of
concentration.

400
00:25:36,640 --> 00:25:40,440
It takes a lot of research to
even understand what each of

401
00:25:40,440 --> 00:25:42,720
these platforms are doing it.
And just the fact that you have

402
00:25:42,720 --> 00:25:47,080
to spend so much time trying to
comprehend what which of these

403
00:25:47,080 --> 00:25:52,040
platforms is doing what with
podcasting is not helping,

404
00:25:52,120 --> 00:25:54,320
right?
And a lot of these companies

405
00:25:54,320 --> 00:25:57,840
don't do a very good job of
educating people about the

406
00:25:57,840 --> 00:26:01,400
changes that they're making and
how they're adjusting what

407
00:26:01,400 --> 00:26:03,800
they're doing and how that
affects creators.

408
00:26:04,240 --> 00:26:06,640
There's a lot of ways these big
companies, I used to work for

409
00:26:06,640 --> 00:26:09,080
Microsoft.
So a lot of these big companies

410
00:26:09,080 --> 00:26:12,680
don't want to tell the real
story behind this.

411
00:26:13,120 --> 00:26:17,240
And that's where you see this
happen with James Quitlin coming

412
00:26:17,240 --> 00:26:21,720
out and making a post about
Spotify is doing this or Spotify

413
00:26:21,720 --> 00:26:24,640
is doing that.
Nobody knows about that because

414
00:26:24,640 --> 00:26:28,480
Spotify isn't going to talk
about this because in a lot of

415
00:26:28,480 --> 00:26:31,640
ways, they kind of want to hide
it and they kind of want to do

416
00:26:31,640 --> 00:26:36,240
it in a way that doesn't cause a
controversy or doesn't get the

417
00:26:36,240 --> 00:26:39,160
company in hot water or
something like that.

418
00:26:39,240 --> 00:26:43,960
And that's unfortunate because
creators are put in this very

419
00:26:43,960 --> 00:26:47,600
difficult position of having to
navigate these very complex

420
00:26:47,600 --> 00:26:50,160
waters, especially with the big
platforms.

421
00:26:50,720 --> 00:26:54,640
If you're just talking about
RSS, it's not as complicated.

422
00:26:54,640 --> 00:26:57,280
But then you layer in this
conversation that we had earlier

423
00:26:57,280 --> 00:27:01,680
about podcasting 2 point O, and
we're just throwing so much

424
00:27:01,680 --> 00:27:06,840
complexity and so much confusion
at the creator around what this

425
00:27:06,840 --> 00:27:12,160
medium stands for, how it works,
what's coming, what's next.

426
00:27:12,200 --> 00:27:14,920
Each of these platforms makes
different changes to their

427
00:27:14,920 --> 00:27:18,440
experience, and somehow we're
all supposed to understand and

428
00:27:18,440 --> 00:27:21,320
know of all this.
And what it does is it causes

429
00:27:21,320 --> 00:27:25,760
creators to make a bunch of
unfortunate unforced errors in

430
00:27:26,080 --> 00:27:29,920
the term for baseball because
they just don't know about it,

431
00:27:29,920 --> 00:27:34,640
and they don't know how it
impacts various aspects of what

432
00:27:34,640 --> 00:27:38,560
they're doing by making certain
moves with your podcast.

433
00:27:38,560 --> 00:27:41,960
And that's an unfortunate thing.
So I think it's harder now, I

434
00:27:41,960 --> 00:27:45,680
think, to be a podcaster, and
that's why we've seen it split

435
00:27:45,680 --> 00:27:47,600
because now there's 2 ends of
the spectrum.

436
00:27:47,600 --> 00:27:51,280
There's the professional
podcasters, and there's the more

437
00:27:51,280 --> 00:27:55,080
upstart, middle of the road
podcasters that aren't as

438
00:27:55,080 --> 00:27:59,000
sophisticated as professional
people that are able to hire big

439
00:27:59,000 --> 00:28:02,920
teams to work on their shows.
And so those shows have an

440
00:28:02,920 --> 00:28:05,680
unfair advantage because they
have experts in there that

441
00:28:05,680 --> 00:28:08,760
understand these details.
But if you're just the

442
00:28:08,760 --> 00:28:12,400
individual podcaster, you're at
a disadvantage in the market

443
00:28:12,400 --> 00:28:14,160
today, I think.
I agree with you.

444
00:28:14,160 --> 00:28:16,520
Let's pivot the AI because I
know you want to spend some time

445
00:28:16,520 --> 00:28:19,280
talking about that.
And I do too because AI is

446
00:28:19,280 --> 00:28:22,240
touching almost every part of
content creation right now.

447
00:28:22,240 --> 00:28:27,240
Writing, editing, transcription,
clipping, translation, synthetic

448
00:28:27,240 --> 00:28:31,240
voices, synthetic video AD,
creative, audience research,

449
00:28:31,240 --> 00:28:34,640
discovery, and some of those
things are helpful, but some of

450
00:28:34,640 --> 00:28:38,640
it makes people uneasy.
So Rob, where does AI generally

451
00:28:38,640 --> 00:28:42,120
help podcasters right now and
where do you think it starts to

452
00:28:42,120 --> 00:28:44,360
damage the relationship with the
audience?

453
00:28:45,000 --> 00:28:49,280
Well, I think it does
fundamentally get back to this

454
00:28:49,280 --> 00:28:55,440
whole big concept of trust.
And I think AI has its strengths

455
00:28:55,440 --> 00:28:59,560
and it has its weaknesses just
like human creators have

456
00:28:59,560 --> 00:29:03,880
strengths and weaknesses.
I think that it is a little bit

457
00:29:03,880 --> 00:29:08,240
of a double standard to some
degree about what humans think

458
00:29:08,240 --> 00:29:12,840
of AI content.
But that's, that's not to really

459
00:29:12,840 --> 00:29:17,800
answer your question really
right now the best use of AI

460
00:29:18,360 --> 00:29:21,560
around content creation is
really more in the pre

461
00:29:21,560 --> 00:29:26,840
production phase and a light
amount in the kind of post

462
00:29:26,840 --> 00:29:29,720
production side.
And so when I say pre

463
00:29:29,720 --> 00:29:33,480
production, I'm talking about
show planning, show scripting,

464
00:29:33,880 --> 00:29:37,560
show outlines, writing
descriptions.

465
00:29:38,160 --> 00:29:42,040
AI is not a place that you think
about on the recording side or

466
00:29:42,040 --> 00:29:45,080
the real production side,
though.

467
00:29:45,080 --> 00:29:49,160
I think we're moving into an era
where AI is going to get more

468
00:29:49,160 --> 00:29:55,200
involved in the production side
with AI voices and hybrid human

469
00:29:55,200 --> 00:30:00,080
cloning that will will enable a
human creator to extend

470
00:30:00,080 --> 00:30:07,040
themselves into an AI version of
themselves that but that is

471
00:30:07,040 --> 00:30:10,480
something that's brewing behind
the scenes and it's growing and

472
00:30:10,480 --> 00:30:12,360
people are testing it and things
like that.

473
00:30:12,440 --> 00:30:15,480
So I think that the era where
we're seeing this a lot of

474
00:30:15,480 --> 00:30:20,680
controversy over this, this
concept of AI slot content,

475
00:30:20,680 --> 00:30:26,760
which is entirely AI generated
audio and video content is where

476
00:30:26,760 --> 00:30:30,960
the controversy is right now
because it threatens, I think,

477
00:30:30,960 --> 00:30:34,600
the perception that humans have
towards their role in this

478
00:30:34,600 --> 00:30:37,640
medium.
And I think it causes a negative

479
00:30:37,640 --> 00:30:41,240
reaction.
But also keep that keep in mind

480
00:30:41,240 --> 00:30:44,880
too, the AI content is not
perfect today and it doesn't

481
00:30:45,440 --> 00:30:49,720
it's not trustworthy right now.
It's not you know, what's funny

482
00:30:49,720 --> 00:30:53,280
about it is that I hear this
tension around AI is too.

483
00:30:53,280 --> 00:30:55,760
It's going to be too polished,
it's going to be too perfect.

484
00:30:55,800 --> 00:30:58,960
It's going to be too potentially
accurate.

485
00:30:59,080 --> 00:31:03,160
And then on the other hand, we
talked about human creators now

486
00:31:03,160 --> 00:31:07,800
as the value prop is that the
human creators are a mess and

487
00:31:07,800 --> 00:31:11,680
that they're somehow because
they're flawed, that makes them

488
00:31:11,680 --> 00:31:14,920
more valuable.
I don't know of too many podcast

489
00:31:14,920 --> 00:31:18,520
creators that think of their
podcast like that, but somehow

490
00:31:18,920 --> 00:31:20,800
they need to make a show that's
flawed.

491
00:31:20,800 --> 00:31:24,920
I think with most podcasters
think is that they're trying to

492
00:31:24,920 --> 00:31:29,960
eliminate as many flaws in their
content as they can and that's

493
00:31:29,960 --> 00:31:33,040
what's aspirational about it.
But if we get to a point where

494
00:31:33,280 --> 00:31:37,080
that's the dividing line between
AI generated content and human

495
00:31:37,080 --> 00:31:39,960
generated content, I'm not sure
that I like that outcome either.

496
00:31:40,480 --> 00:31:43,920
We're we're forced to say, well,
because we're flawed that that's

497
00:31:43,920 --> 00:31:45,600
what's going to attract
audiences.

498
00:31:46,040 --> 00:31:48,680
I don't think that's the case.
I really think that it's going

499
00:31:48,680 --> 00:31:52,960
to be AI is going to become
better and better and it's going

500
00:31:52,960 --> 00:31:56,000
to force human creators to be
better and better to really

501
00:31:56,000 --> 00:31:59,080
compete with it.
I think that's more the one

502
00:31:59,080 --> 00:32:03,360
year, maybe 2 year time frame
out because the AI, and I know

503
00:32:03,360 --> 00:32:08,520
this is said a lot, the AI that
we see today is not the AI that

504
00:32:08,520 --> 00:32:10,240
we're going to have a year from
now.

505
00:32:10,680 --> 00:32:16,160
And so if you look out a year
and think, well, how much

506
00:32:16,160 --> 00:32:20,920
quality and how much value is
this AI generated content

507
00:32:20,920 --> 00:32:24,760
potentially going to be?
That's a hard thing to predict

508
00:32:24,760 --> 00:32:26,920
right now.
Let's say that AI generated

509
00:32:26,920 --> 00:32:29,920
content is based on a human that
you trust.

510
00:32:30,560 --> 00:32:33,840
It's in their voice, it's in
their likeness, it's in their

511
00:32:33,840 --> 00:32:37,680
knowledge.
It just happens to be AI

512
00:32:37,680 --> 00:32:41,520
generated, and we're already
seeing this proliferate on

513
00:32:41,520 --> 00:32:44,520
YouTube.
You're seeing current doctors

514
00:32:44,520 --> 00:32:49,440
and other people that have
doctor's licenses and have

515
00:32:49,440 --> 00:32:55,480
expertise generating a version
of themselves doing content on

516
00:32:55,480 --> 00:33:00,560
YouTube and video.
That's all AI generated and it's

517
00:33:00,680 --> 00:33:03,760
those shows are garnering
hundreds of thousands of views.

518
00:33:04,080 --> 00:33:08,120
We can't really make this
blanket statement that all AI

519
00:33:08,120 --> 00:33:13,640
content is going to be AI slop
or it's going to be content that

520
00:33:13,640 --> 00:33:16,640
nobody wants to listen to and
nobody's going to trust.

521
00:33:17,200 --> 00:33:22,200
But I do think once we hit this
threshold of you can't tell

522
00:33:22,480 --> 00:33:28,120
between a human, So right now
I'm talking to you in an AI

523
00:33:28,120 --> 00:33:34,360
clone version of myself, and you
don't know that, but you learn

524
00:33:34,360 --> 00:33:39,760
after you've listened to me that
you just listen to an AI, then

525
00:33:39,760 --> 00:33:41,800
there's going to be a break in
trust, right?

526
00:33:41,800 --> 00:33:46,960
Because then that creator
basically perpetrated a

527
00:33:46,960 --> 00:33:50,720
deception, right?
So I think once, once we get

528
00:33:50,720 --> 00:33:53,720
through this period here over
the next six months to a year,

529
00:33:54,120 --> 00:33:58,920
labeling of AI content is going
to be, it's going to be

530
00:33:58,920 --> 00:34:00,880
required.
I don't see any other way around

531
00:34:00,880 --> 00:34:01,960
it.
Let's talk about that.

532
00:34:01,960 --> 00:34:05,800
So what you've really said there
to me is a question And then how

533
00:34:05,800 --> 00:34:08,560
do real creators stand out at
the Internet gets flooded with

534
00:34:08,639 --> 00:34:11,360
AI content?
How do we, as independent

535
00:34:11,360 --> 00:34:16,960
creators that are not AI, stand
out against this superior AI

536
00:34:16,960 --> 00:34:18,440
content that just keeps getting
better?

537
00:34:18,440 --> 00:34:21,920
How do we make that happen?
Well, that's the existential

538
00:34:21,920 --> 00:34:23,560
question.
I don't know that anybody has

539
00:34:23,560 --> 00:34:28,000
the answer to that entirely, but
I do think that there is talk

540
00:34:28,040 --> 00:34:31,560
that humans will have their
pathway, right.

541
00:34:32,080 --> 00:34:36,520
They'll also be labeled right,
Human created content will be

542
00:34:36,520 --> 00:34:39,920
labeled human created.
That's what I think is going to

543
00:34:39,920 --> 00:34:46,080
happen, and there's going to be
certain platforms, certain areas

544
00:34:46,520 --> 00:34:50,639
of content creation that will be
purely human, and they'll

545
00:34:50,639 --> 00:34:55,800
probably be entirely separate
platforms that will only do

546
00:34:55,840 --> 00:34:58,920
human content.
Hey Rob, one of the community

547
00:34:58,920 --> 00:35:01,000
members, Janae has joined us on
stage.

548
00:35:01,000 --> 00:35:03,840
Janae, you made a comment in the
chat.

549
00:35:03,840 --> 00:35:05,080
I just wanted you to bring that
out.

550
00:35:05,080 --> 00:35:06,800
Something that Janae said.
Go ahead, Janae.

551
00:35:07,480 --> 00:35:09,840
Hey, good morning, everyone.
And this is something that Rob

552
00:35:09,840 --> 00:35:14,000
has been doing for many years,
live streaming, but you can't

553
00:35:14,000 --> 00:35:17,640
really fake live streaming
unless if you have pre recorded

554
00:35:17,640 --> 00:35:21,720
stuff that you're streaming a
lot, but that can get you also

555
00:35:22,160 --> 00:35:24,600
marked down.
But live streaming is something

556
00:35:24,880 --> 00:35:28,000
that we can completely control
and show our authentic selves

557
00:35:28,000 --> 00:35:30,920
and authentic voices.
And on top of that, building a

558
00:35:30,920 --> 00:35:35,080
community is going to be
something that we should

559
00:35:35,080 --> 00:35:39,160
actually also be looking at
because the idea of creating a

560
00:35:39,560 --> 00:35:42,760
community or creating content is
to, again, to belong to a

561
00:35:42,760 --> 00:35:46,720
community, to be part of a
community, to help other humans.

562
00:35:47,040 --> 00:35:49,480
And if these doctors are
treating these AI videos and

563
00:35:49,480 --> 00:35:52,320
whatnot, they're serving a
purpose or they're bringing

564
00:35:52,320 --> 00:35:56,560
clients to their offices at the
end point, is there a human

565
00:35:56,560 --> 00:35:58,840
connection or not?
That's the question.

566
00:35:59,560 --> 00:36:02,200
Now, Rob, do you think as Matt
Bliss put something in the chat

567
00:36:02,200 --> 00:36:04,920
that he thinks that live
streaming is going to fix this?

568
00:36:04,920 --> 00:36:07,160
Because he, Matt, and I can't
speak for Matt, but it seems

569
00:36:07,160 --> 00:36:11,240
like he thinks the AI is going
to make live streaming inroads

570
00:36:11,240 --> 00:36:12,360
as well.
What do you think about that,

571
00:36:12,360 --> 00:36:14,520
Rob?
Well, I've talked to some

572
00:36:14,520 --> 00:36:18,320
companies in Silicon Valley that
are actively doing live

573
00:36:18,320 --> 00:36:23,720
streaming with avatars, so it's
coming to live streaming too.

574
00:36:23,720 --> 00:36:28,360
So let's not feel like that's
our island of opportunity here

575
00:36:28,360 --> 00:36:31,520
that is safe from the influx of
AI.

576
00:36:32,120 --> 00:36:35,760
But I do think that there is
always going to be an element of

577
00:36:36,000 --> 00:36:40,040
the type of content that humans
create that's different from AI.

578
00:36:40,560 --> 00:36:44,800
And that's where the real
difference is going to be,

579
00:36:44,920 --> 00:36:46,480
right?
It's like what we're doing right

580
00:36:46,480 --> 00:36:49,280
now to some degree.
Now, granted that this is live,

581
00:36:49,800 --> 00:36:52,720
and I do think that live will be
an important part of human

582
00:36:52,720 --> 00:36:56,240
content, but I think it really
gets back to is that there's

583
00:36:56,240 --> 00:37:01,880
going to have to be labeling
human content and AI content.

584
00:37:02,080 --> 00:37:07,880
And that's where each person
that is consuming content is

585
00:37:07,880 --> 00:37:12,000
going to have to decide which
one is more valuable to them.

586
00:37:12,560 --> 00:37:14,280
But Rob, here's my question for
that, though.

587
00:37:14,280 --> 00:37:16,960
I don't disagree with you, but
who's going to be responsible

588
00:37:16,960 --> 00:37:19,800
for labeling that?
And that's a slippery slope

589
00:37:19,800 --> 00:37:23,480
because you could say, well, I
used AI to create the script or

590
00:37:23,480 --> 00:37:25,720
I used AI to put some voices in
it.

591
00:37:26,040 --> 00:37:28,680
How do you measure that?
And how do you mark that?

592
00:37:28,680 --> 00:37:30,720
And who's responsible for
policing that?

593
00:37:31,560 --> 00:37:37,040
There is a growing movements in
on the governmental side and in

594
00:37:37,040 --> 00:37:42,200
in the podcast industry and the
advertising industry to come up

595
00:37:42,200 --> 00:37:46,400
with standards around labeling.
And so there there is active

596
00:37:46,400 --> 00:37:49,920
efforts.
I know that the EU has put out

597
00:37:49,920 --> 00:37:53,560
some policy standards that I
think are going into effect here

598
00:37:53,560 --> 00:37:57,520
in June that people will have to
label content.

599
00:37:57,520 --> 00:38:02,160
And you're starting to see it
get labeled in YouTube and in

600
00:38:02,160 --> 00:38:05,920
the social platforms.
But there is a recommended

601
00:38:05,920 --> 00:38:12,960
outline of what types of AI
content, what's the level of AI

602
00:38:12,960 --> 00:38:18,960
content that's in your program?
And there is a website that you

603
00:38:18,960 --> 00:38:24,760
can go to learn about this.
It's at should I disclose dot

604
00:38:24,800 --> 00:38:28,160
AI?
And it it basically runs through

605
00:38:28,160 --> 00:38:34,080
a whole list of criteria of when
you should disclose and when you

606
00:38:34,080 --> 00:38:38,200
don't need to disclose, which is
really helpful, I think, for

607
00:38:38,200 --> 00:38:42,000
people to get some sort of a
mental picture of what this will

608
00:38:42,000 --> 00:38:44,400
likely look like.
Now, I haven't seen any

609
00:38:45,040 --> 00:38:51,080
standards around the disclosure
of human content, but I do think

610
00:38:51,080 --> 00:38:53,760
that's going to come next.
So I think the first thing what

611
00:38:53,760 --> 00:38:58,480
we have to do is label, label
the AI content based on certain

612
00:38:58,480 --> 00:39:00,960
criteria.
And this criteria here, I can

613
00:39:01,360 --> 00:39:04,720
pull it up in front of me and I
can run through it a little bit.

614
00:39:04,720 --> 00:39:07,000
Now, Rob, before you get there,
I just want to make sure I

615
00:39:07,000 --> 00:39:10,360
understood you clearly.
Are you a proponent of a

616
00:39:10,360 --> 00:39:13,400
governmental body doing this or
are you thinking self

617
00:39:13,400 --> 00:39:16,800
disclosure?
I think that there's going to be

618
00:39:16,960 --> 00:39:22,840
rules that are put in place by
state and federal government as

619
00:39:22,840 --> 00:39:26,920
well as like the European Union
is on that, on track to doing

620
00:39:26,920 --> 00:39:30,920
it, that will force the industry
to adopt certain minimum

621
00:39:30,920 --> 00:39:33,360
standards.
And I know that the advertising

622
00:39:33,360 --> 00:39:35,800
industry is actively doing that
right now.

623
00:39:35,800 --> 00:39:39,520
So I'm not advocating for this.
I'm just saying that there's

624
00:39:39,520 --> 00:39:43,800
going to be a certain amount of
self self deployment of this,

625
00:39:43,880 --> 00:39:47,920
but each one of us is going to
have to decide when we have to

626
00:39:47,920 --> 00:39:51,960
check that AI box in our
publishing process.

627
00:39:52,520 --> 00:39:56,200
And I think that is where we're
going to all have to get

628
00:39:56,200 --> 00:40:02,160
educated on this is that each of
us, us AI to create content in

629
00:40:02,160 --> 00:40:05,120
slightly different ways.
So we're going to have to go

630
00:40:05,120 --> 00:40:07,480
through this list and it's
really a good website.

631
00:40:07,480 --> 00:40:11,680
It was actually written by one
of the Co founders of rss.com.

632
00:40:12,400 --> 00:40:17,760
Who has a PhD in Human Behavior
and media and has worked with AI

633
00:40:17,760 --> 00:40:21,920
for many many years.
But I can give you just a small

634
00:40:21,920 --> 00:40:24,400
sample of what.
Rob, yeah, we got a couple more

635
00:40:24,400 --> 00:40:26,400
minutes and I want to transition
to our wins of the week, but

636
00:40:26,400 --> 00:40:28,720
let's let's end with that.
Tell us about that and I'll make

637
00:40:28,720 --> 00:40:30,200
sure we put a link to that in
the show notes.

638
00:40:30,200 --> 00:40:32,160
But go ahead, Rob.
Yeah, it's.

639
00:40:32,360 --> 00:40:37,200
So if you're an AI as a
performer, right, you're going

640
00:40:37,200 --> 00:40:41,440
to have to disclose that, right.
So if the AI voice narrates the

641
00:40:41,440 --> 00:40:46,680
episode, if the AI conversation
and dialogue happens in the

642
00:40:46,840 --> 00:40:52,880
episode, if AI translated the
episode into another language,

643
00:40:52,880 --> 00:40:58,240
you have to disclose is the AI
voice delivered content

644
00:40:58,240 --> 00:41:00,920
segments.
So like whole segments of the

645
00:41:00,920 --> 00:41:03,160
content?
Because I think we will see

646
00:41:03,160 --> 00:41:07,680
hybrid content that's human
voiced and AI voiced blended

647
00:41:07,680 --> 00:41:11,800
together in one episode.
And then there's also cloned

648
00:41:11,800 --> 00:41:17,720
voices plus AI written script.
So that's where you get an AI to

649
00:41:17,720 --> 00:41:21,240
write your script and then you
run it through the AI and it

650
00:41:21,240 --> 00:41:26,920
voices it in a synthetic voice
and then human voice plus fully

651
00:41:27,240 --> 00:41:30,040
AI written script.
Now that one's a little bit

652
00:41:30,040 --> 00:41:32,200
controversial because that gets
back to what we were talking

653
00:41:32,200 --> 00:41:34,800
about before, but it's still
human voice.

654
00:41:34,800 --> 00:41:38,840
But what you're saying is, is
really what the AI said.

655
00:41:39,440 --> 00:41:42,280
And that's going to be a touchy
one because I think a lot of

656
00:41:42,280 --> 00:41:46,960
people are generating their show
scripts via AI, but they're

657
00:41:46,960 --> 00:41:50,240
still voicing it themselves.
I think where it gets a little

658
00:41:50,240 --> 00:41:53,920
bit at the edge is how much of
that script are you reading

659
00:41:53,920 --> 00:41:58,040
verbatim or are you just taking
it as a suggested outline?

660
00:41:58,600 --> 00:42:02,440
And then on the other side of
the coin where you don't have to

661
00:42:02,440 --> 00:42:07,240
disclose is that you're using
your clone voice.

662
00:42:07,680 --> 00:42:12,320
That would be a synthetic voice,
but you're using your own

663
00:42:12,360 --> 00:42:15,480
handwritten script.
That's a gate just put in the

664
00:42:15,480 --> 00:42:18,720
actual chat, he says.
I have cloned my voice to do my

665
00:42:18,720 --> 00:42:21,360
intro BIOS and that's a whole
disclose.

666
00:42:21,400 --> 00:42:22,840
That's a whole question mark,
isn't it, Rob?

667
00:42:23,360 --> 00:42:25,040
Yeah, it is.
I think it's a really good

668
00:42:25,040 --> 00:42:29,280
question that we all need to.
I think the human voice with a

669
00:42:29,280 --> 00:42:35,080
fully AI written script and then
also the your clone voice with a

670
00:42:35,120 --> 00:42:40,640
script that you human wrote and
didn't use AI to write is you

671
00:42:40,640 --> 00:42:43,800
don't have to disclose that.
So that's going to be an

672
00:42:43,800 --> 00:42:46,680
interesting one that I think the
industry is going to have to

673
00:42:47,520 --> 00:42:51,360
flush out because I'm, I think
that if there's any signal in

674
00:42:51,360 --> 00:42:56,680
that clone AI voice that it
sounds synthetic, I think it

675
00:42:56,680 --> 00:43:00,800
triggers the distrust reaction
potentially in the audience

676
00:43:01,320 --> 00:43:03,920
unless it's disclosed.
So in some ways that one may

677
00:43:03,920 --> 00:43:08,120
wind up in the disclosure side
in my opinion, but short AI

678
00:43:08,120 --> 00:43:11,680
intros and outro bumpers don't
need to be disclosed.

679
00:43:11,680 --> 00:43:14,240
So James Quitlin is a good
example of that.

680
00:43:14,360 --> 00:43:19,400
His Pod news weekly show uses AI
generated lead insurance and

681
00:43:19,400 --> 00:43:22,760
bumpers and his content.
So he doesn't have to disclose

682
00:43:22,760 --> 00:43:24,520
that.
That's not primary to the

683
00:43:24,520 --> 00:43:27,120
content.
And then I want to leave it at

684
00:43:27,120 --> 00:43:28,720
this.
It all comes down to trust,

685
00:43:28,720 --> 00:43:30,120
though, doesn't it?
That's what we're really talking

686
00:43:30,120 --> 00:43:31,720
about here.
Exactly.

687
00:43:31,720 --> 00:43:34,640
At the end of the day, it's
that's really what it is.

688
00:43:34,640 --> 00:43:38,680
And if your audience learns that
you're using AI to generate some

689
00:43:39,120 --> 00:43:43,000
contextual orientation towards
the content, I think you do get

690
00:43:43,000 --> 00:43:46,200
into this kind of Gray area of
disclosure.

691
00:43:46,200 --> 00:43:48,360
I agree with you.
Well, Rob, I just want to say

692
00:43:48,360 --> 00:43:50,800
thank you for joining us today.
We want to get to our wins of

693
00:43:50,800 --> 00:43:53,720
the week, and I apologize since
we had a little technical glitch

694
00:43:53,720 --> 00:43:55,680
here at the front.
I'm pushing us past the normal

695
00:43:55,680 --> 00:43:58,000
ending time.
But Rob, do you have a win that

696
00:43:58,000 --> 00:43:59,320
you want to share with the group
today?

697
00:44:00,000 --> 00:44:04,200
I think just keep doing human
content.

698
00:44:04,200 --> 00:44:08,400
Don't see this AI wave is any
kind of a discouragement.

699
00:44:09,120 --> 00:44:12,880
I think the more humans creating
content, the more significant it

700
00:44:12,880 --> 00:44:18,200
is and it will make it more
difficult for AI to capture the

701
00:44:18,200 --> 00:44:20,880
market.
I do think we all have to accept

702
00:44:20,880 --> 00:44:23,720
the fact that AI will capture a
certain percentage of the

703
00:44:23,720 --> 00:44:25,480
audience because I'm already
seeing it happen.

704
00:44:25,480 --> 00:44:28,160
It's not like it's going to
happen at some point in the

705
00:44:28,160 --> 00:44:29,920
future.
It's happening right now.

706
00:44:30,360 --> 00:44:36,240
AI is garnering audience and so,
but we as humans and human

707
00:44:36,240 --> 00:44:40,480
creators need to keep striving
and getting better at what we're

708
00:44:40,680 --> 00:44:43,720
doing with content and building
that trust layer and building

709
00:44:43,720 --> 00:44:46,480
community, just like what was
said earlier.

710
00:44:46,480 --> 00:44:49,280
So that's my win for the week.
Go for it.

711
00:44:49,400 --> 00:44:51,160
Thank you, Rob.
And my win for the week is

712
00:44:51,160 --> 00:44:53,680
having you on the show.
So thank you so much for

713
00:44:53,680 --> 00:44:55,960
agreeing to come on here.
I, again, I apologize.

714
00:44:56,000 --> 00:44:58,080
I'm not sure what went on with
the live stream through

715
00:44:58,080 --> 00:45:00,280
Riverside.
It's mighty frustrating because

716
00:45:00,280 --> 00:45:02,720
I'm one of these people that
test everything 15 times.

717
00:45:02,720 --> 00:45:05,520
And everything was good when we
started, and then all of a

718
00:45:05,520 --> 00:45:08,000
sudden it wasn't.
So thank you so much.

719
00:45:08,000 --> 00:45:10,280
Yeah, I'm going to go to Dr. for
her win of the week.

720
00:45:10,280 --> 00:45:16,560
Go ahead, Dr. OK, well this is
the third and final day of our

721
00:45:16,560 --> 00:45:21,960
bathroom renovation.
My bathroom is completely done

722
00:45:21,960 --> 00:45:24,640
and now they're switching over
to my husband's bathroom today.

723
00:45:25,360 --> 00:45:28,400
And yes, we have separate
bathrooms and yes, we have

724
00:45:28,400 --> 00:45:31,640
separate TV's.
That is the secret to our 25

725
00:45:31,640 --> 00:45:34,240
year marriage.
So yeah, so that's my win is

726
00:45:34,240 --> 00:45:37,360
that this is the third and final
day of the renovation.

727
00:45:37,360 --> 00:45:39,680
Yay.
That sounds like a super win.

728
00:45:39,680 --> 00:45:41,400
Janae, do you have a win you
want to share?

729
00:45:42,000 --> 00:45:46,440
Yeah, my win is we recently had
our front yard and backyard

730
00:45:46,440 --> 00:45:49,280
redone.
So all of the plants are put in,

731
00:45:49,280 --> 00:45:53,040
We have vegetables in the garden
and we are ready to harvest them

732
00:45:53,040 --> 00:45:55,000
in the few weeks.
So that's my win.

733
00:45:55,000 --> 00:45:56,400
Thank you.
Awesome.

734
00:45:56,400 --> 00:45:59,080
Well, again, I want to thank
everybody for joining us today.

735
00:45:59,080 --> 00:46:02,160
Don't forget to come back on
Monday when Jonathan will be

736
00:46:02,160 --> 00:46:06,080
doing our Obsession Worthy
podcast and you can find that

737
00:46:06,080 --> 00:46:10,040
again at
podcastingmorningshow.com/OWP.

738
00:46:10,040 --> 00:46:13,240
So I want to wish everybody a
happy and great weekend and

739
00:46:13,240 --> 00:46:15,120
we'll see you again on Monday.
Take care, everybody.