214: Erasing Laura Ackerson, Part 2

WEBVTT

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Southern Fried true crime covers cases that
are not suitable for young listeners, and

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there may also be some explicit language
used. Today's episode is much more graphic

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than usual listener discretion as strongly advised. Last week, I told you about

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how Laura Akerson had been dealt a
really shitty hand in life. Still,

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she had the guts to move across
country away from her parents to start over.

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She was doing pretty good until she
fell in love Grant Hayes was an

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abusive narcissist. He didn't care about
anything but himself and his laughable music career.

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Her relationship with Grant didn't just fall
apart. He blew it up spectacularly

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when he married another woman without even
ending things with Laura first, and then,

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unbelievably, she lost custody of her
two young sons to a musician who

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drank and did drugs almost every day, who had never had a stable job.

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Little Grant had just turned two years
old and Gentle was only ten months

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old. It was unthinkable, except
I guess to the judge, since Grant

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had a stable mother figure with him
after his QUICKI marriage to a woman named

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Amanda, and he had an apartment
in his name, so I guess he

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looked better on paper. But Laura
jumped into action quickly. She fought back

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in court but only got weekend custody
of her boys, but she was far

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from done fighting. It's amazing how
much Laura Akerson had changed her life in

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one year. She didn't just find
a stable job, but began a career,

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opening her own business, something she
could personally be proud of, not

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just something to satisfy the judge.
She was making new friends too. Her

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business partner, Chavin was a great
friend to her, and she had started

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attending Grace Fellowship Church in Kinston,
joining evening Bible study classes. One of

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the women she met there had agreed
to be a character witness for her,

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and her steadfast best friend, Heidi, was always there for her. When

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Laura went missing one month before her
important custody hearing, Heidi became frantic.

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She later told a newspaper, I
started bawling. They told me Laura was

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missing and asked for any information I
might have. I knew she wasn't missing.

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Welcome to episode two fourteen Erasing Laura
Akerson, Part two. On Wednesday,

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July thirteenth, twenty eleven, Laura
had a full day of meeting clients

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for her ad agency. The last
one was a restaurant manager in Wilson.

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She had been rushing around all day
excited to get this last meeting finished because

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Grant had emailed her the night before
offering another midweek visit. They had met

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before at a place called Monkey Joe's, where Grant knew the manager, so

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the kids could play and eat free
pizza. The last time had gotten ugly

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when Grant came to pick up the
kids. He had rushed their goodbyes,

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roughly pulling the boys away and taking
them to his car while they were still

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crying. This scene led to rounds
of more emails, where three cheers for

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Laura. She told Grant he was
just using Amanda too, that she was

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his gravy train. That was too
much for Grant. There weren't any more

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midweek visits for a few weeks,
so on July twelfth, Laura was surprised

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to get the invitation. She even
told him in her email back that they

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should set a start time and pick
up time beforehand so there wouldn't be another

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scene, which pissed Grant off.
He defensively wrote that he only rushed their

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goodbyes because Monkey Joe's was closing.
Laura was desperately trying to be reasonable and

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wanted to see her boys, so
it's not like she was trying to anger

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him. So she apologized, even
though she had done nothing wrong except try

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to avoid another fight or even misunderstanding
if that's how he wanted to see it.

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But in the end he seemed to
cool off and Laura accepted the offer.

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The next day, that Wednesday,
the thirteenth, she was busy running

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from meeting to meeting, but they
were all going well. She texted happily

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with Chavn and sent Grant a text
letting him know she might be running late.

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While she was still meeting with the
restaurant manager in Wilson. Grant texted

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her at four oh eight pm and
said, would you like to keep the

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boys for the week until Sunday,
the twenty fourth. According to court documents,

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Laura responded at four twelve pm.
She wrote, Okay, I'm leaving

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Wilson now, I'll call you when
I get past the traffic. Where will

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you be in an hour or so. Remember this was in the middle of

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the week, not on her Friday
pick up day, and it was July

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thirteenth, so he was now offering
her almost twelve days with her boys.

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Of course, she responded as fast
as possible. She was in Wilson,

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where they were always supposed to meet
at the public convenience store sheets, but

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probably because of his offer of a
week and a half with the boys,

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she was willing to go to his
apartment in Raleigh and pick them up.

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I honestly think that's how he got
her. She never would have gone there

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otherwise. At four nineteen pm,
she called an artist named Oxana Samarski,

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who she was representing with her new
agency. She had already helped sell one

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of Oxana's paintings, and the two
really liked each other and enjoyed working together.

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Laura was supposed to meet Uxana that
evening, but she wasn't sure how

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long she would be in Raleigh and
just wanted to warn her she might not

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be able to see her at or
before seven pm, as they had talked

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about. Oxana missed her call because
she was in class, so Laura's voicemailt

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to her was the last time anyone
heard from her other than Grant and Amanda

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Hayes. Of course, later that
same night, Laura's business partner, Chavin,

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became worried. Laura was supposed to
have called Chavon at nine PM to

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discuss several business items, but Laura
never called. Chavon knew Laura was supposed

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to see Akxana, but she did
not know she was planning on going to

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Grant's to pick up the boys.
She probably would have been worried much sooner

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if she had known Laura was going
to Grant's apartment. Then three days passed

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and Chavonne still had not heard from
Laura. Aside from their business obligations,

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she knew Laura was supposed to have
picked up her voice from Grant on Friday.

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It was then that Chavon was certain
something was wrong. Laura never messed

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an opportunity to see her kids for
the weekend. She even called Grant's mom,

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Patsy, to see if she had
heard from Laura. Patsy said she

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had not. On Monday, July
eighteenth, Chavon drove to Kinston to look

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for Laura and maybe talk to the
manager of her apartment. She saw that

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her car wasn't in the garage.
Now more worried than ever, she went

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to the police station in Kenston and
reported twenty seven year old Laura Jene Akerson

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missing. Chavin was so upset she
also went to Raleigh and even the Wilson

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police station, the last place she
knew for sure Laura had been, to

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report her missing. I'm going to
pause now for a short commercial break.

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The police took Laura's case seriously right
away. She had been missing since the

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thirteenth, five days by then,
and she had missed picking up her boys.

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Chavon was adamant she would not just
not pick up her kids. Investigators

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first went to Laura's apartment to knock
on the door. Then they talked to

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management and went inside. Though the
apartment was tidy, you could tell Laura

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had been gone for a few days, if by nothing else. She had

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potted plants that were almost dead from
not being watered. Then they watched the

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surveillance footage. The camera was right
outside her door, so they could see

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what she was wearing, a black
sleeveless top and khaki capri pants. She

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was five foot eight inches tall and
weighed one hundred and thirty five pounds.

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She had brown hair and hazel eyes. This would be the description given to

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the media on the show see no
evil. The detectives said they could tell

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from the footage it was just a
normal day. She wasn't carrying any extra

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bags, like she was going anywhere
other than work. She didn't look distressed.

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She had her phone in her hand, and she walked out the door

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at eight ten am. They checked
her bank account. The last activity had

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been July tenth. In ten days, she had not used her bank card

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once. And now they had Laura's
day planner slash diary and on the twelfth

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she had noted a problem with Grant. They would later find that in her

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emails, but they didn't know this
the first time they talked to Grant.

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Hayes investigators called him and he confirmed
Laura never showed up on Friday, the

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court appointed day for custody exchange.
He acted concerned, but never mentioned his

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midweek offer to Laura. Of course, investigators checked out his story and got

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surveillance footage from sheets the convenience store
where Grant always meant to exchange the boys,

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and there he was on the camera
footage at four thirty pm that Friday,

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the fifteenth, with his two sons. He buys cigarettes and then hangs

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out with the boys at the patio
tables outside, looking like he's waiting.

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You can see the footage on the
episode of Scene Evil. For Now,

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Grant Hayes seemed to be truthful,
but they were always mindful that the first

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suspect is the husband or boyfriend,
be they X or not. Oxana Smarski

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came in to talk to the investigators
and played the voicemail Laura had left her.

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She was also worried for her friend. They were supposed to have met

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that Wednesday evening at seven pm.
Laura was letting her know she might be

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late or even miss their appointment because
she was going to get her boys,

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and asked Uxana to call her back. Detective Jerry Falk said that narrowing down

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the timeline of between around four point
fifteen from the last text message and calls

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to around seven pm when she never
showed up really helped. Right around that

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time, he got a call from
officers that Laura's carr had been found.

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Her Ford focus had been abandoned in
a Raleigh apartment complex parking lot. This

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parking lot was less than four hundred
yards from Grant and Amanda's apartment. They

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swabbed Laura's ford for DNA lifted Prince
and collected a hairstrand, but nothing they

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could go on. So now investigators
knew from Maksana that Laura was supposed to

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have gone to get the boys at
Grant's that Wednesday, which of course was

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not the story he had told them, and then her car was found that

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close to his apartment. They called
Grant again and asked him to come in

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and make a statement. He declined. He said he was moving and couldn't

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come in at that time, but
he had emails with Lara he would be

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happy to forward along with a written
statement as soon as he had good sell

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service. Oh but he did now
remember that Lara had picked up the boys

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Wednesday around five and brought them back
around nineth thirty pm, getting in a

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dig saying she hadn't fed them dinner
and his wife had had to take them

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to Chick fil A, And he
even vaguely mentioned they discussed a new custody

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arrangement. But sure, Officer,
he would send those emails as soon as

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he could and hung up. The
detective didn't hold his breath for the emails,

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but obviously Grant didn't send anything,
or call back or show up to

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give his statement, and then Heidi
Schumacher went to see the Raleigh investigators and

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boy, if somebody could connect the
dots, it was Heidi. If Chaven

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had made them suspicious. Heidi made
this clear, this may actually be a

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murder investigation. She gave them the
complete history of Laura and Grant, the

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abuse, his surprise wedding to Amanda, the custody battle, his continuing nastiness

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and game playing, and his life. Amanda was just as bad. She

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even came back later with all of
her emails with Laura since May on a

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flash drive for the police. Heidi
knew something had happened to her best friend.

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She knew she was probably dead,
not just missing. Heidi also gave

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them a description of a tattoo on
Laura's foot. They were already thinking grimly

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that this might help identify her.
Investigators put together from cell phone records that

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her last known location was grant An
Amanda's Raleigh apartment, and they were finally

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able to get a search warrant.
On Wednesday, July twentieth, investigators searched

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the Hayes apartment. They were not
even there. Officers had picked up Amanda's

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adult daughter, Shay and she was
there to witness the search. The odor

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of bleach hit them as they walked
in the door. For the most part,

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the apartment was empty, with some
stuff still in boxes. Grant and

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Amanda were moving out, but not
everything was gone yet. But the first

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thing they saw when they walked in
was a three foot bleach stain in the

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furrier of the apartment. There was
no getting around that it looked very suspicious.

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I'll have a photo of this up
on my social media. Detective Bobby

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Latour also said on the show See
No Evil that the bathroom was suspiciously clean.

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The shower curtain was missing, and
the tub was so clean you could

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see it shining in places. The
bathroom also had a really strong smell of

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bleach. Something had happened in this
bathroom, he intoned. They also found

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a handwritten note, two paragraphs and
two different handwritings. The beginning of the

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note read, I, Laura j
Akerson agree for the sum of twenty five

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thousand dollars not to pursue custody of
the two minor children. I am not

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surrendering parental rights, but I do
consent to leaving them in the sole custody

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of their father. For now.
Further, I agree to drop all pending

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litigation against their father in the Lenore
County Family Court. The next part of

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the note appears to be in Laura's
handwriting. I'm not sure if at this

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point investigators already had samples, but
it would be obvious later, well,

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it would at least be obvious that
this was a different person's handwriting. It

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read by notifying Counsel John Sargent of
our arrangement lest the monetary compensation, I

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understand that I will be able to
see my kids when I want, at

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the discretion of their father. It
was signed in tight cursive Laura Akerson,

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dated seven thirteen eleven, although it
was a originally six thirteen eleven, and

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the six was crossed out for the
seven, with Laura's initials by it,

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as if she was indicating she made
the change. John Sargent was Laura's attorney

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in the custody case. If Grant
Hayes thought this note would throw investigators off,

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he was sorely mistaken. It only
made them even more suspicious. First

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of all, this mother who jumped
at the chance to have twelve days with

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her sons, then immediately pivoted and
signed away custody when she got there to

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pick them up. From everything they
had learned about Laura, including her vicious

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fight for custody, they did not
believe she would have done this for any

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amount of money. Those who knew
Laura also said this out of court settlement

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situation was bullshit. Her friends and
brother were adamant that Laura would never have

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taken such a trade. No amount
of money would have made her give up

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her children. But Laura's signature does
appear on that piece of paper. Later,

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handwriting analyst testified that it was Laura's
handwriting. First of all, no

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one witnessed her supposedly writing this except
her ex and his wife. Handwriting analysis

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has often been criticized as pseudoscience,
and there's no way of knowing if Laura

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was forced to write her part of
that note or sign under duress. Handwriting

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analysis or graphology is admissible in court
under the seven oh two rule of evidence,

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as long as the expert has the
right credentials. The problem is it's

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ultimately subjective. It's literally someone looking
at the writing and comparing it with other

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known examples. You're just looking at
it and making the call. And so

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if it is admitted in Core,
you're usually going to have a battle of

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the experts, but defense attorneys would
actually never dispute this note. I have

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photos of the note and Laura's signature, which I will post on my social

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media. Zooming in on that signature. It looks so real, so tight

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and perfect. It looks practiced,
the way a woman signs her name in

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cursive. Some of us practiced our
signatures for years, and we can do

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it in our sleep. That's what
this looks like. Laura's signature on this

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paper looked like a strong, practiced
signature. It was actually the strongest part

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of that note, in my opinion, But the expert actually refused to say

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for sure it was Laura's signature,
though they were willing to testify. The

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other handwriting looked like Laura's. Of
course, I'm obviously not an expert,

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but it all looks real to me, and the first paragraph, not in

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her handwriting, looks like a man's
handwriting. The expert did testify that it

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was Grant's, and I seriously doubt
that Grant and Amanda had that note already

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forged and ready. It looks and
feels like it was Laura's handwriting. And

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signature. It's that confident, practiced
signature, and the other writing is uniform,

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not a jumble of different letter formations
that you might see in a forgery.

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I know I'm harping on this much
like a harped on how Laura's wedding

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could have been faked, But it
bothers me. The reason to look at

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this note over and over is not
just what the words say that she took

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twenty five grand for her kids.
It's that we don't believe she would do

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that, and yet that is her
handwriting. It is neat, it doesn't

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00:20:55.960 --> 00:21:02.119
look rushed, and it looks like
a well practiced signature. Why why in

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the world would Laura sign that paper, much less write the additional paragraph.

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I don't think we'll ever know.
Maybe she did it trying to get safely

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out of Grant's apartment, because after
she got there something had happened. The

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detectives also noticed that there was a
kitchen knife block in the apartment that was

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missing knives. Maybe someone held a
knife on her. Maybe they both did,

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and she would not want to scream
if her babies were in the room.

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The presence of her children alone would
have probably made Laura cooperate investigators later

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said they felt sure that Laura had
died where that bleach stain was by the

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front door. Maybe she almost made
it out the door. That breaks my

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00:21:53.759 --> 00:22:00.440
heart, the thought that she was
that close to an escape. I think

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the handwriting puts it over the edge
for me for some reason. I can

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00:22:04.680 --> 00:22:11.519
just see her scared, just trying
to get out of there, calmly signing

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her name without causing a scene in
front of her son's just trying to leave

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00:22:17.400 --> 00:22:25.839
and get to safety. But she
didn't make it. I'm going to pause

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Member FDIC. The last few moments
of Laura's life will always be a mystery,

274
00:24:52.640 --> 00:24:57.160
even though both Grant and Amanda had
their stories. However, based on

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00:24:57.279 --> 00:25:03.039
numerous court documents, surveillance footage,
and eyewitness accounts, were at least able

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00:25:03.079 --> 00:25:07.680
to put together a fairly clear sequence
of events leading up to her death and

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00:25:07.759 --> 00:25:15.039
what happened afterwards. On Wednesday,
July thirteenth, Laura drove to Raleigh from

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00:25:15.079 --> 00:25:22.440
Wilson to pick up her sons.
We know this from the text messages between

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00:25:22.440 --> 00:25:26.759
her and Grant. Now, what
seemed like a friendly text from Grant was

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00:25:26.799 --> 00:25:32.200
seen for what it really was.
He was luring her to his apartment.

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00:25:33.160 --> 00:25:37.200
She never went over there on their
visitation exchanges, but telling her she could

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00:25:37.279 --> 00:25:42.440
keep her boys for twelve days was
enough to rule Laura in. She answered

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00:25:42.440 --> 00:25:48.079
his text within four minutes, telling
him she was leaving right then and could

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00:25:48.079 --> 00:25:53.319
be there within an hour. Additionally, Laura's cell phone, which she had

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00:25:53.400 --> 00:25:59.079
used to contact Grant as she made
the commute to Raleigh, pinged the appropriate

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00:25:59.160 --> 00:26:03.440
cell towers for from Wilson to Raleigh, so we know that Laura got to

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00:26:03.519 --> 00:26:11.319
Grant's apartment. Then later, Grant
and Amanda admitted that Laura arrived at their

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00:26:11.359 --> 00:26:15.799
apartment, and according to them,
she agreed to sign an out of court

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00:26:15.839 --> 00:26:22.200
custody settlement, which investigators found in
the apartment just like they had wanted them

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00:26:22.200 --> 00:26:26.640
to. But Grant, being the
mastermind criminal he was, had left behind

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00:26:26.720 --> 00:26:32.319
other papers, receipts, and other
stuff that looked like a mess on someone's

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00:26:32.359 --> 00:26:36.880
desk. I guess he thought the
police would read that note and move on.

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00:26:37.480 --> 00:26:41.680
They found a receipt to an Apple
store, where apparently Grant had gone

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00:26:41.680 --> 00:26:47.400
on July fourteenth, the evening after
Laura was last seen and bought a new

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00:26:47.519 --> 00:26:52.759
chord for his MacBook. Put that
in your back pocket for now. The

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00:26:52.839 --> 00:26:56.039
detectives also found a song Grant had
written scribbled on a piece of paper.

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00:26:56.720 --> 00:27:03.480
It was entitled Mankiller. According to
court documents, Grant's lyrics described the first

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00:27:03.519 --> 00:27:08.599
person killing of a woman by making
her bleed and by strangulation. Here's an

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00:27:08.680 --> 00:27:14.839
excerpt. Give in to me.
I want it all. I want your

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00:27:14.880 --> 00:27:18.119
scream and I want you to crawl. I'll make you bleed, fall to

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00:27:18.160 --> 00:27:22.920
the floor. Don't try to plead. That turns me on. I'm not

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00:27:22.960 --> 00:27:26.240
the one to make you scream.
I'm just the one to make you bleed.

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00:27:26.799 --> 00:27:30.920
Don't raise your arms. You can't
stop me. I'll put my hands

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00:27:32.119 --> 00:27:38.440
on your throat and squeeze. Disgusting, but it's not like he's the first

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00:27:38.559 --> 00:27:44.960
musician to use that kind of language, and obviously still nothing concrete for an

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00:27:45.039 --> 00:27:51.119
arrest. Later. In contrast,
detectives would watch a video for Amanda.

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00:27:51.839 --> 00:27:56.759
Grant posted a song on YouTube in
tribute to his wife and baby daughter soon

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00:27:56.799 --> 00:28:03.519
after she was born. Watching it
made me want to scream, and Grant's

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00:28:03.599 --> 00:28:10.359
mother wasn't exactly helping his cause publicly
On July twentieth, she told ABC News

310
00:28:10.519 --> 00:28:15.000
about her grandson's quote, they get
over things a lot faster, and they

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00:28:15.039 --> 00:28:18.279
could probably not be affected by things
as much as adults are, you know,

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00:28:18.759 --> 00:28:23.440
because they are small and they're very
resilient, so they probably figure they're

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00:28:23.480 --> 00:28:29.279
just staying with dad. Now,
she didn't sound at all worried about the

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00:28:29.319 --> 00:28:33.480
mother of her grandchildren. Sounds to
me like she already didn't think Laura was

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00:28:33.480 --> 00:28:38.039
coming back. To be fair,
maybe she thought Laura had run off with

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00:28:38.119 --> 00:28:42.920
twenty five thousand, but that's hard
to believe, considering Grant and his family

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00:28:44.160 --> 00:28:48.880
were having to move in with her
because they couldn't afford rent. How would

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00:28:48.880 --> 00:28:53.119
they have paid Laura? Where did
Patsy think she really was? I'll be

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00:28:53.240 --> 00:29:00.480
fair. We believe our children,
at least we want to. But that's

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00:29:00.519 --> 00:29:06.920
as fair as I'll be about Patsy
Hayes. And that July twentieth date was

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00:29:07.000 --> 00:29:11.319
an interesting date for that story to
run. Her son happened to get back

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00:29:11.359 --> 00:29:15.599
to town after a trip late that
night and brought his wife and kids with

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00:29:15.720 --> 00:29:22.279
him to his mom's house. Like
I said, detectives by this time had

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00:29:22.279 --> 00:29:26.559
already picked up Shay Amanda's twenty two
year old daughter. She appeared to cooperate

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00:29:26.920 --> 00:29:32.400
and even accompanied them to her mother's
apartment while they executed their search warrant,

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00:29:33.400 --> 00:29:37.359
but Shy didn't tell them much at
that time. She called her mom in

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00:29:37.400 --> 00:29:42.000
Texas, telling her that the police
had picked her up, but Amanda said

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00:29:42.039 --> 00:29:48.160
don't worry about it and that she
would be home soon. It wasn't until

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00:29:48.200 --> 00:29:52.880
after Grant and Amanda were arrested and
Shay went back to the apartment to pick

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00:29:52.920 --> 00:29:57.599
up stuff for the baby and the
boys that she changed her mind. She

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00:29:57.759 --> 00:30:03.000
was there to get stuff to take
back to Patsy's, but she started rummaging

332
00:30:03.039 --> 00:30:08.279
around. She found something she thought
was very alarming, an owner's manual for

333
00:30:08.359 --> 00:30:15.160
a reciprocating saw. And then she
thought of that immaculate main bathroom, the

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00:30:15.359 --> 00:30:22.839
usually messy bathroom everyone used, but
especially where the kids bathed and brushed their

335
00:30:22.880 --> 00:30:29.480
teeth. Now you could eat dinner
off that tub. And by then there

336
00:30:29.559 --> 00:30:33.519
was grisly news coming out of Texas, and Shay realized what she might have

337
00:30:33.599 --> 00:30:38.640
found. This time, she didn't
stay quiet like a good daughter. She

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00:30:38.720 --> 00:30:47.240
took the reciprocating saw manual to the
Raleigh police investigators checked around Raleigh to see

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00:30:47.240 --> 00:30:51.359
who may have sold that saw,
and there was a wal Mart just three

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00:30:51.400 --> 00:30:56.640
miles from Grant and Amanda's apartment that
sold the saw. They went to this

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00:30:56.799 --> 00:31:03.880
Walmart and watched surveillance footage of Grant
Hayes the Third At about two thirty am

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00:31:04.119 --> 00:31:11.359
on Thursday, July fourteenth, almost
eight hours after Laura had gotten to his

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00:31:11.480 --> 00:31:18.319
apartment, Walmart cameras caught Grant buying
several suspicious items goggles, trash bags,

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00:31:18.599 --> 00:31:26.880
plastic sheeting, a tarp, cleaning
supplies, and a reciprocating saw with extra

345
00:31:26.920 --> 00:31:32.960
blades. He was easy to spot. It's not like he went in there

346
00:31:32.960 --> 00:31:38.319
with a hat pulled down or his
hoodie up, avoiding cameras. And this

347
00:31:38.559 --> 00:31:45.319
fool repeatedly asked a store manager to
help him at two thirty am. It's

348
00:31:45.359 --> 00:31:48.920
not like there are a lot of
employees wandering around and someone walked up to

349
00:31:49.000 --> 00:31:56.519
him. No, Grant went looking
for help. The manager remembered it because

350
00:31:56.559 --> 00:32:00.880
he repeatedly came back asking more questions. He couldn't just look for these things

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00:32:00.960 --> 00:32:07.319
himself. He wanted her to tell
him where everything was. You can see

352
00:32:07.400 --> 00:32:13.400
him even more clearly on the camera
above the checkout lane where he paid cash

353
00:32:13.440 --> 00:32:19.359
for his items, smart enough to
use cash, but dumb enough not to

354
00:32:19.440 --> 00:32:24.640
think of security cameras and to repeatedly
ask an employee for help so he would

355
00:32:24.680 --> 00:32:31.920
be remembered. Now, detectives felt
sick. It seemed pretty clear what Grant

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00:32:32.039 --> 00:32:39.319
and Amanda had done with Laura Akerson. I'm going to pause now to hear

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00:32:39.319 --> 00:32:49.039
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00:36:12.119 --> 00:36:20.719
M E D E O D O
R A n T dot com. The

405
00:36:20.760 --> 00:36:24.519
police got a warrant for the Hayes
Bank records and Grant had gone to Walmart

406
00:36:24.599 --> 00:36:30.559
again. Two days later, on
Saturday, July sixteenth, Grant went back

407
00:36:30.599 --> 00:36:37.400
to the same damn Walmart at around
seven am and purchased three large coolers like

408
00:36:37.440 --> 00:36:42.920
you would use for camping. He
also bought six bags of ice. Detectives

409
00:36:42.960 --> 00:36:46.840
again watched the footage and again Grant
was not in a disguise and he was

410
00:36:46.920 --> 00:36:52.880
calm and looked like everything was fine. Then, according to the detectives interviewed

411
00:36:52.880 --> 00:36:58.039
on c No Evil, they got
a call from Shay with more information,

412
00:36:59.400 --> 00:37:02.000
but I think there were compressing for
time on that show, Shae told the

413
00:37:02.039 --> 00:37:07.039
truth after she found the manual to
the saw, but the detectives interviewed said

414
00:37:07.079 --> 00:37:10.840
Shaye was upset and said that she
didn't want to get her mom in trouble,

415
00:37:12.159 --> 00:37:15.559
but she had to get it off
her chest. She said her mom

416
00:37:15.679 --> 00:37:20.400
and Grant had rented a U haul
trailer and gone to Texas just a few

417
00:37:20.480 --> 00:37:25.400
days after Laura went missing. To
back up a little for Shay's account,

418
00:37:27.840 --> 00:37:31.800
on July fourteenth, the day after
Laura disappeared, at around ten thirty am,

419
00:37:32.119 --> 00:37:37.519
Amanda had called Shay and asked her
to come and pick up the kids.

420
00:37:37.960 --> 00:37:42.400
She and Grant needed them out of
the apartment for a while. I

421
00:37:42.440 --> 00:37:46.039
think we know why they needed the
children out of there. Shay took the

422
00:37:46.079 --> 00:37:51.639
boys to Monkey Joe's the same place
center Laura used to meet Grant at.

423
00:37:52.679 --> 00:37:57.320
It's unclear if she took her mom's
month old baby or if the baby stayed

424
00:37:57.320 --> 00:38:00.440
in that apartment with Amanda and Grant. A kind of doubt she took the

425
00:38:00.480 --> 00:38:05.880
baby while she was wrangling a two
and three year old at a kid's pizza

426
00:38:06.000 --> 00:38:10.719
Clay Palace, but it's sickening to
think of that baby in the apartment during

427
00:38:10.760 --> 00:38:16.719
what we know they did to Laura
and that bathroom. Shay stayed at Monkey

428
00:38:16.800 --> 00:38:22.719
Joe's with the kids until about four
o'clock in the afternoon. Then, as

429
00:38:22.719 --> 00:38:25.280
she called her mom to say she
was bringing the kids back, Amanda said

430
00:38:25.320 --> 00:38:30.079
she needed to borrow her vacuum.
Shay brought it over to her mother and

431
00:38:30.119 --> 00:38:36.039
Grant's apartment at about six o'clock that
evening, aggravated by rush hour traffic,

432
00:38:36.400 --> 00:38:39.159
and that her mom had also asked
her to stop and pick up dinner on

433
00:38:39.239 --> 00:38:45.480
top of the damn vacuum. This
after babysitting for her all day. Despite

434
00:38:45.559 --> 00:38:51.320
being pissed off at her mom or
Grant or both, Shay still did whatever

435
00:38:51.360 --> 00:38:57.159
her mom asked her to. In
Bitter Remains, Diane Fanning wrote that Shay

436
00:38:57.239 --> 00:39:00.840
had wanted to go with them on
the trip to Texas. She loved her

437
00:39:00.880 --> 00:39:04.440
aunt Karen, whom she had lived
with for a while when her mom ran

438
00:39:04.480 --> 00:39:08.400
off to the Virgin Islands and she
wanted to visit her aunt too, She

439
00:39:08.480 --> 00:39:12.719
said her mother snapped at her,
telling her it wasn't a good time,

440
00:39:13.320 --> 00:39:15.679
there was no room in the car
with all the car seats or whatever.

441
00:39:16.840 --> 00:39:24.199
Amanda also pointed out her mother had
just died guilt tripping Shay, so whenever

442
00:39:24.280 --> 00:39:29.760
it actually happened, I go with
Fannings version. After Shay brought in the

443
00:39:29.760 --> 00:39:34.840
reciprocating saw Manuel, she told police
that her mom and Grant had taken an

444
00:39:34.920 --> 00:39:40.559
unexpected trip to Richmond, Texas,
twelve hundred miles away. At any other

445
00:39:40.639 --> 00:39:46.000
time, this trip might seem ordinary. Amanda's older sister, Karen, did

446
00:39:46.039 --> 00:39:52.079
live in Richmond, and again,
their mother had recently passed away, but

447
00:39:52.239 --> 00:39:55.760
not that recently, and not in
light of the fact that Laura, the

448
00:39:55.800 --> 00:40:00.679
mother of Grant's two sons, was
missing. Grant, Amanda, and the

449
00:40:00.760 --> 00:40:07.159
kids left on July sixteenth, four
days after Laura disappeared, and only one

450
00:40:07.239 --> 00:40:12.639
day after she was reported missing.
It's not like the cops had not already

451
00:40:12.639 --> 00:40:17.039
talked to Grant either remember, he
had an extended phone call with a detective

452
00:40:17.599 --> 00:40:22.039
while they thought he was still in
North Carolina, but he was actually calling

453
00:40:22.079 --> 00:40:28.480
from Texas. Then the family of
five returned to Raleigh late on July twentieth.

454
00:40:30.039 --> 00:40:35.559
Again, investigators found the U haul
location, watched the footage and talked

455
00:40:35.559 --> 00:40:38.599
to the employee who helped Grant,
and he remembered him. He said he

456
00:40:38.639 --> 00:40:43.440
was going on a fishing trip and
had these big coolers for bait he was

457
00:40:43.519 --> 00:40:47.320
taking, and in true Grant form, he put it under his name with

458
00:40:47.480 --> 00:40:53.800
Hayes spelled h a z E.
Detectives watched Grant hitched the trailer to his

459
00:40:53.880 --> 00:40:59.239
Dodge Durango. That was about eleven
a m. On the same day,

460
00:40:59.480 --> 00:41:04.880
the fourteenth, the day after Laura
disappeared. That night, a little after

461
00:41:04.960 --> 00:41:08.320
eight pm, Grant went to a
target just a mile from his apartment.

462
00:41:09.000 --> 00:41:14.119
He bought two more coolers on wheels, one seventy five courts, the other

463
00:41:14.199 --> 00:41:20.840
fifty courts. He also bought more
cleaning supplies. Then that Saturday night,

464
00:41:21.159 --> 00:41:24.760
the sixteenth, Grant, Amanda,
three year old Little Grant, two year

465
00:41:24.760 --> 00:41:30.639
old Gentle, and the month old
baby girl all got into that durango pulling

466
00:41:30.679 --> 00:41:37.079
the U haul and left for Texas. It should be obvious by now that

467
00:41:37.119 --> 00:41:44.159
Grant and probably Amanda, though she
would later deny it, had dismembered Laura's

468
00:41:44.159 --> 00:41:50.239
body. Her remains were stored on
ice in those large coolers. The ice

469
00:41:50.360 --> 00:41:54.440
chests were loaded into the U haul, just like she was fish bait.

470
00:41:57.480 --> 00:42:02.920
North Carolina investigators traveled to Tech after
they contacted the local Fort Ben County authorities

471
00:42:04.159 --> 00:42:09.880
for assistance. The local sheriff's deputies
and Raleigh detectives met and together went to

472
00:42:09.960 --> 00:42:16.559
Amanda's sister, Karen's house in Richmond. When they asked Karen if they could

473
00:42:16.599 --> 00:42:22.760
talk to her, she asked them
if she could pray first, They said,

474
00:42:22.800 --> 00:42:29.320
of course. Then Karen Barry sang
like a canary. After confirming that

475
00:42:29.400 --> 00:42:34.719
Amanda, Grant and the kids had
visited and then left already, Detective Dexter

476
00:42:34.840 --> 00:42:40.559
Gill asked, is Laura here?
At this Karen began sobbing and said,

477
00:42:42.400 --> 00:42:47.119
I'm afraid she is. You need
to look across the street. Across the

478
00:42:47.159 --> 00:42:54.760
street, less than one hundred yards
from Karen's home was Oyster Creek. Detectives

479
00:42:54.760 --> 00:43:00.960
sent word back to North Carolina.
And Grant and Amanda Hayes. We're arrested

480
00:43:00.039 --> 00:43:07.239
for Laura Akerson's murder. I'm going
to pause now to hear another word from

481
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483
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Try Fume fum dot com slash sftc. The operation to find Laura Akerson's

513
00:45:45.079 --> 00:45:52.000
remains was immense. The Gulf Coast
Water Authority was contacted to close the dams

514
00:45:52.320 --> 00:45:58.559
to reduce the flow of water.
As crime scene investigators and detectives rode out

515
00:45:58.599 --> 00:46:02.519
on a boat an Oyster Creek,
it did not take long for them to

516
00:46:02.559 --> 00:46:09.639
spot two white objects floating among a
patch of lily pads. It was two

517
00:46:09.679 --> 00:46:15.599
parts of a torso divers worked until
it was too dark to see anything that

518
00:46:15.800 --> 00:46:22.119
night. They began again early the
next morning. On Tuesday, July twenty

519
00:46:22.159 --> 00:46:29.840
sixth, the Richmond Fire Department and
Houston Police Department c SI crews scoured Oyster

520
00:46:29.960 --> 00:46:36.360
Creek for more of Laura's remains.
They sent investigators, bloodhounds, and divers.

521
00:46:37.360 --> 00:46:44.039
And remember this was Texas in July. It was one hundred degrees in

522
00:46:44.079 --> 00:46:49.559
the open air and about ninety degrees
under the water. For reference, the

523
00:46:49.599 --> 00:46:54.239
typical hot tub is give or take
one hundred degrees. Not to mention that

524
00:46:54.360 --> 00:47:00.199
the creek water was full of brown
silled. The divers couldn't see anything.

525
00:47:00.000 --> 00:47:05.320
They were searching on their hands and
knees and what I should go ahead and

526
00:47:05.400 --> 00:47:12.360
mention was known to be alligator infested
waters. In the end, other than

527
00:47:12.400 --> 00:47:15.400
the torso, divers found a portion
of her leg which was stuck in a

528
00:47:15.440 --> 00:47:22.679
patch of vines, and a short
distance upstream they found Laura's decapitated head wrapped

529
00:47:22.719 --> 00:47:28.400
in a sheet. Although they could
still tell that it was Laura, they

530
00:47:28.440 --> 00:47:34.880
had to use dental records to positively
identify her. For reasons I will explain

531
00:47:35.079 --> 00:47:38.320
in just a bit, Laura's head
was more decomposed than the rest of the

532
00:47:38.360 --> 00:47:45.039
body parts divers found. Due to
the decomposition and water damage, the Texas

533
00:47:45.079 --> 00:47:52.039
Emmy could not determine Laura's exact cause
of death. It was declared a homicide

534
00:47:52.239 --> 00:47:59.400
by undetermined means. On August eleventh, the Gulf Coast Water Authority was cleaning

535
00:47:59.400 --> 00:48:04.000
the watergate under bridges. At the
gate, less than a mile from Karen's

536
00:48:04.000 --> 00:48:07.760
house, they found a portion of
a leg. This part was carefully sent

537
00:48:07.800 --> 00:48:15.039
to North Carolina to be buried with
the rest of her remains. The rest

538
00:48:15.039 --> 00:48:22.360
of Laura's body was never recovered.
Twenty seven year old Laura Jene Akerson's partial

539
00:48:22.440 --> 00:48:29.440
remains were buried in Tuttle Cemetery in
Ionia, Michigan. On July thirtieth,

540
00:48:29.599 --> 00:48:35.320
nearly one hundred people gathered at Grace
Fellowship Church in Kinston, North Carolina to

541
00:48:35.440 --> 00:48:42.280
remember Laura at a memorial service.
Remember, while Laura was building her new

542
00:48:42.360 --> 00:48:46.800
life during her difficult and often lonely
custody battle, she had joined this church

543
00:48:47.000 --> 00:48:52.280
and made many new friends. One
of those friends had plans to testify as

544
00:48:52.320 --> 00:49:01.559
a character witness at Laura's next custody
hearing. Gravestone epitaph reads, now my

545
00:49:01.679 --> 00:49:07.880
day is over night is drawing nigh
shadows of the evening steal across the sky.

546
00:49:08.639 --> 00:49:15.159
When the morning wakes, Then may
I first rise pure and fresh and

547
00:49:15.280 --> 00:49:22.559
sinless in thy holy eyes, which
is beautiful. Then, for some reason,

548
00:49:22.679 --> 00:49:28.360
on that gravestone, I just read
you. Amanda's daughter's name is included

549
00:49:28.519 --> 00:49:32.760
along with Laura's sons, saying I
will love you forever after their names.

550
00:49:34.559 --> 00:49:38.400
As though Laura was saying that there
is also a photo of all three children

551
00:49:38.519 --> 00:49:45.280
on that stone, across from a
photo of Laura. It's not my place

552
00:49:45.320 --> 00:49:51.199
to judge, but I sincerely don't
understand this at all. I have nothing

553
00:49:51.400 --> 00:49:54.880
against an innocent girl who had the
misfortune to be born to two murderers,

554
00:49:55.639 --> 00:50:02.840
but I don't understand how or why
she is on Laura's gravestone. Maybe they

555
00:50:04.039 --> 00:50:08.679
just felt sorry for what would surely
now be a motherless and fatherless baby.

556
00:50:10.280 --> 00:50:15.000
For her sake, I hope she
changes her name. For that matter,

557
00:50:15.440 --> 00:50:21.719
I hope Laura's sons do too.
I would never have given Laura's sons names

558
00:50:22.039 --> 00:50:28.800
if they had not already been so
widely published everywhere. It also feels important

559
00:50:29.280 --> 00:50:34.000
that their names seem more to do
with Grant than Laura. Little Grant the

560
00:50:34.039 --> 00:50:39.039
fourth carrying on the family tradition,
and Gentle Rain, a g name with

561
00:50:39.239 --> 00:50:46.960
rain spelled like a king's reign,
not like the rain showers. That doesn't

562
00:50:46.960 --> 00:50:52.320
sound like Laura. It sounds like
Grant. I could be wrong, but

563
00:50:52.400 --> 00:50:55.639
it's just a feeling I can't shake. It makes more sense that Grant,

564
00:50:55.960 --> 00:51:00.960
as we know, felt ownership over
his son, and he put his mark

565
00:51:01.039 --> 00:51:07.840
on them in their names, and
I was honestly floored to see Amanda's daughter's

566
00:51:07.920 --> 00:51:15.000
name on Laura's gravestone. As loving
a woman as Laura Akerson was, I

567
00:51:15.000 --> 00:51:20.639
don't believe she would have considered Amanda's
daughter like her own. It's just so

568
00:51:20.760 --> 00:51:24.559
crazy to me. Grant and Amanda
were already in jail by the time of

569
00:51:24.639 --> 00:51:31.159
Laura's memorial, so it's not like
her family didn't know. But grieving families

570
00:51:31.199 --> 00:51:36.800
do things for all sorts of reasons, and it's not really my business.

571
00:51:36.840 --> 00:51:42.079
Of course, maybe they simply did
feel sorry for that baby girl. I

572
00:51:42.199 --> 00:51:45.880
just couldn't help but pointed out,
it's not like the gravestone isn't easily found

573
00:51:45.920 --> 00:51:52.039
online anyway. Let's move back to
the timeline, or actually back up a

574
00:51:52.079 --> 00:51:59.400
little back still. On July twenty
second, Raleigh Investigators, which at that

575
00:51:59.559 --> 00:52:05.639
point was a task force even before
Laura's remains were found in Texas, went

576
00:52:05.679 --> 00:52:09.719
to Kinston, North Carolina, looking
for Grant and Amanda Hayes. They went

577
00:52:09.800 --> 00:52:15.239
to the home of Grant Junior and
Patsy Hayes and then sat there watching the

578
00:52:15.280 --> 00:52:20.920
house, waiting for that Durango to
pull in the driveway. They were waiting

579
00:52:21.000 --> 00:52:25.760
for search warrants for the Durango and
Grant and Amanda's cell phones. As soon

580
00:52:25.800 --> 00:52:30.440
as they got them, they knocked
on the door and Grant answered. The

581
00:52:30.440 --> 00:52:35.960
cops took both Grant and Amanda to
the station, but they returned back to

582
00:52:36.000 --> 00:52:42.519
his parents' home by midnight. The
police later said Grant behaved nonchalantly the whole

583
00:52:42.559 --> 00:52:47.760
time, like he had nothing to
hide. His email and Facebook messages would

584
00:52:47.800 --> 00:52:54.639
tell another story. At this point, Grant still had his MacBook. This

585
00:52:54.880 --> 00:53:00.400
dummy was talking to every friend he
could think of, asking them to pray

586
00:53:00.440 --> 00:53:06.280
for him, Amanda, and for
Laura's safe return because the police had trashed

587
00:53:06.280 --> 00:53:10.360
his home, which I guess was
his official reason to these friends that he

588
00:53:10.440 --> 00:53:15.280
was back at his parents now,
and also, poor thing the cops had

589
00:53:15.280 --> 00:53:22.119
taken his car and both of their
cell phones. If Laura didn't turn up

590
00:53:22.199 --> 00:53:27.360
soon, it would look bad for
him. He reminded many friends that he

591
00:53:27.400 --> 00:53:30.480
was a black man who was fighting
a white girl for custody, and now

592
00:53:30.519 --> 00:53:36.840
that white girl was missing. He
was even asking people if they remembered Laura,

593
00:53:37.239 --> 00:53:42.639
ever, mentioning anything about just up
and leaving anything about her past that

594
00:53:42.800 --> 00:53:50.119
might help explain why she had just
left on her own. I'm going to

595
00:53:50.159 --> 00:53:59.679
pause now for a short commercial break. Grant had reason to be worried.

596
00:54:00.440 --> 00:54:05.400
Investigators found blood in the Durango when
they sprayed luminol, and not just on

597
00:54:05.480 --> 00:54:08.280
Grant's driver's side, but on the
passenger side, seat belt and door.

598
00:54:10.280 --> 00:54:19.079
And wedged between the seats was doctor
Calloway's voluminous psychological report on Grant and Laura.

599
00:54:20.519 --> 00:54:24.920
There were many notes in the margin
from Grant. No never things like

600
00:54:24.960 --> 00:54:30.360
that. So he drove to Texas
with that report in the car with him,

601
00:54:30.920 --> 00:54:36.840
And how did they come to this
macabre task driving Laura's remains to Texas.

602
00:54:37.360 --> 00:54:43.119
There would be conflicting stories, naturally, though at first the Hayes were

603
00:54:43.280 --> 00:54:49.199
a united front. Later, according
to Grant, he left the room where

604
00:54:49.239 --> 00:54:54.199
Laura was signing the settlement note,
leaving her alone with Amanda. When Grant

605
00:54:54.239 --> 00:54:59.400
returned, he claimed that Laura and
Amanda were at the tail end of a

606
00:54:59.400 --> 00:55:06.840
physical altercation. Amanda was unharmed,
but Laura was on the floor. Grant

607
00:55:06.960 --> 00:55:12.519
told investigators Laura died as a result
of the injuries from her and Amanda's fight.

608
00:55:13.599 --> 00:55:15.639
In fact, he said it happened
in front of her two year old

609
00:55:15.679 --> 00:55:22.360
son, But according to Amanda,
that's not at all what happened. In

610
00:55:22.400 --> 00:55:29.880
Amanda's version, all three adults engaged
in a heated argument over custody. Obviously,

611
00:55:30.039 --> 00:55:34.320
Laura was upset because she wanted the
kids, and Grant was also upset,

612
00:55:35.320 --> 00:55:40.639
But Amanda was concerned about where this
twenty five thousand dollars lump sum Grant

613
00:55:40.719 --> 00:55:47.280
was offering Laura was supposed to come
from. So far, Grant had already

614
00:55:47.320 --> 00:55:53.440
sold a large amount of Amanda's prized
possessions. She was upset trying to figure

615
00:55:53.480 --> 00:55:59.599
out where the hell he would get
this money. Amanda also told a tell

616
00:56:00.119 --> 00:56:06.719
that Laura became enraged when Amanda wouldn't
let her hold the new baby. So

617
00:56:06.800 --> 00:56:10.800
Laura began following Amanda around the apartment, and then the two women bumped into

618
00:56:10.840 --> 00:56:16.119
each other due to how close Lara
was following her, or maybe shoving her

619
00:56:16.599 --> 00:56:22.559
was how Amanda made it seem.
Then she claimed Laura tripped on the carpet.

620
00:56:22.480 --> 00:56:30.360
Then Amanda said Grant quote stepped in
after Laura fell. She said that

621
00:56:30.440 --> 00:56:36.079
Laura was injured, so Grant took
her into the bathroom presumably to stop bleeding,

622
00:56:36.119 --> 00:56:40.679
I guess, and he sent Amanda
and the children away. Grant didn't

623
00:56:40.719 --> 00:56:45.679
want the two boys to see their
mother like that. This was part of

624
00:56:45.719 --> 00:56:50.800
that Chick fil A story he had
already been telling, And Amanda did leave

625
00:56:50.840 --> 00:56:57.079
the apartment late that night, sometime
before ten pm. Remember, the best

626
00:56:57.239 --> 00:57:01.480
lies have a little bit of truth
in them. So Amanda took the kids

627
00:57:01.480 --> 00:57:06.840
on a drive while Grant was supposed
to call nine one one and get ems

628
00:57:06.960 --> 00:57:12.440
there. But when Amanda returned,
Grant told her that Laura was fine.

629
00:57:13.079 --> 00:57:17.559
She had gotten up and left on
her own, no paramedics needed. None

630
00:57:17.599 --> 00:57:22.320
of this makes any sense. We're
supposed to believe that Laura was going to

631
00:57:22.360 --> 00:57:27.840
take a payout in exchange for her
two sons, whom she loved more than

632
00:57:27.880 --> 00:57:32.880
life itself, and that Laura was
so infuriated about not being allowed to hold

633
00:57:34.079 --> 00:57:39.320
her ex's new wife's baby that she
started following her around, even shoving her

634
00:57:40.039 --> 00:57:47.760
bullshit. If anything, the Laura
Akerson everyone knew, the Laura Akerson,

635
00:57:47.800 --> 00:57:52.880
who was so polite and kind in
all of her texts and emails with Amanda,

636
00:57:53.440 --> 00:57:58.719
would have politely told Amanda her baby
was beautiful, but she would not

637
00:57:58.840 --> 00:58:02.320
be demanding to hold that baby.
She was there to pick up her sons,

638
00:58:02.800 --> 00:58:08.760
not coup over her ex's new baby. It's so ridiculous. At the

639
00:58:08.840 --> 00:58:14.400
end of the day, Grant and
Amanda can't both be right. One or

640
00:58:14.440 --> 00:58:21.320
both of them was definitely in that
room when Laura died. Someone is lying,

641
00:58:22.199 --> 00:58:28.320
probably both of them, to certain
degrees, and we will probably never

642
00:58:28.440 --> 00:58:35.199
know what really happened. Regardless of
the exact details of the situation. Laura

643
00:58:35.360 --> 00:58:39.960
was murdered. We don't know who
dealt the final blow, or who held

644
00:58:40.000 --> 00:58:45.559
the chord that strangled her, or
if they did it together, But that

645
00:58:45.719 --> 00:58:52.599
didn't matter on the evening of Wednesday, July thirteenth, twenty eleven. All

646
00:58:52.639 --> 00:58:57.559
that mattered at this point was that
Grant and Amanda had a body to deal

647
00:58:57.599 --> 00:59:01.039
with, and how they chose to
do with Laura's body was, in no

648
00:59:01.199 --> 00:59:07.920
uncertain terms, absolutely depraved. When
they were finished, they got on the

649
00:59:08.000 --> 00:59:14.199
road to Texas. Then, after
nineteen hours of driving, on the evening

650
00:59:14.239 --> 00:59:19.320
of Sunday, July seventeenth, Grant, Amanda and the kids arrived with that

651
00:59:19.519 --> 00:59:24.039
U haul trailer at her sister's home
in Richmond. Later, during her own

652
00:59:24.079 --> 00:59:30.719
court testimony, Amanda would claim that
she had no clue that Laura's remains were

653
00:59:30.719 --> 00:59:35.880
in the U haul. Amanda claimed
she had no part in dismembering Laura.

654
00:59:36.599 --> 00:59:42.800
She claimed that she never even saw
the body. She supposedly thought she and

655
00:59:42.840 --> 00:59:46.599
Grant were dropping off some of her
mother's things at Karen's house. That's it,

656
00:59:47.440 --> 00:59:52.679
and she and Grant had stopped at
a self storage unit in Raleigh before

657
00:59:52.719 --> 00:59:57.599
going to Texas to pick up a
piece of furniture. But if Amanda's story

658
00:59:57.639 --> 01:00:00.840
were to hold up, what was
she doing in the apartment during the hours

659
01:00:00.880 --> 01:00:07.840
when Grant was dismembering Laura's body.
She wasn't at Monkey Joe's with Shay,

660
01:00:07.280 --> 01:00:13.000
her baby, and her two step
sons. And there's no indication that Amanda

661
01:00:13.119 --> 01:00:17.639
had any other alibi for this time
period. Maybe she had her headphones on

662
01:00:17.760 --> 01:00:23.280
with music turned up really loud,
or maybe Grant dismembered Laura at a different

663
01:00:23.320 --> 01:00:29.599
location. It is strange that not
a single trace of blood was ever found

664
01:00:29.719 --> 01:00:35.599
in Grant and Amanda's apartment, and
investigators tore that place up. They removed

665
01:00:35.599 --> 01:00:40.119
the plumbing and ripped up the carpet, but naw that clean, shiny bathroom,

666
01:00:40.199 --> 01:00:45.960
along with all the tarpus, plastic
and other accessories all point to the

667
01:00:45.000 --> 01:00:52.079
bathroom. My grizzly guess is that
they put a tarp in the tub before

668
01:00:52.119 --> 01:00:57.079
dismembering Laura. They didn't just wash
all the blood down the drain, because

669
01:00:57.119 --> 01:01:01.400
typically when investigators remove all the plumbing
like that, they do usually find blood.

670
01:01:02.039 --> 01:01:06.320
It's why they've learned to rip out
all the plumbing no matter what,

671
01:01:07.519 --> 01:01:12.039
which at that time meant tearing apart
the roof in the apartment below Grant and

672
01:01:12.079 --> 01:01:19.039
Amanda's. But here's the thing.
Once someone is dead and their heart stops

673
01:01:19.079 --> 01:01:22.760
pumping, they don't bleed out.
I'm not saying there wouldn't have been blood

674
01:01:23.119 --> 01:01:28.639
even a mess, but I would
say the bleach stained by the front door

675
01:01:28.880 --> 01:01:34.400
is where Laura did the most bleeding. By the time she was in that

676
01:01:34.480 --> 01:01:39.400
bathtub, her heart had long stopped. Grant didn't even have the saw until

677
01:01:39.440 --> 01:01:45.119
almost nine hours later, so if
they used a tarp, there wouldn't have

678
01:01:45.159 --> 01:01:50.280
been that much blood to wash down
the drain, if any. And of

679
01:01:50.360 --> 01:01:55.159
course they would have poured bleach down
the drain to just in case. And

680
01:01:55.239 --> 01:02:00.639
here's another way. I'll never understand
how smart and how stupid of a criminal

681
01:02:00.679 --> 01:02:06.920
Grant was. Somehow no trace of
blood was found, but we have his

682
01:02:07.039 --> 01:02:12.639
dumbass on surveillance footage at Walmart twice, Target, once U Haul, and

683
01:02:13.000 --> 01:02:17.239
the home depot in Texas. Maybe
it was Amanda who was smart about the

684
01:02:17.280 --> 01:02:22.400
cleanup, but hey, maybe it
was Amanda who was the smart one period

685
01:02:23.119 --> 01:02:28.559
who sent Grant out for those supplies. But maybe she forgot to warn him

686
01:02:28.599 --> 01:02:34.039
about cameras and talking to people.
I just don't know. We never will.

687
01:02:34.719 --> 01:02:42.280
Ultimately, they did not testify against
each other. On that Wednesday,

688
01:02:42.360 --> 01:02:46.920
July twentieth, investigators had tried to
comb through garbage looking for any signs,

689
01:02:47.400 --> 01:02:52.679
but the most recent dumpster pickup had
been on the fifteenth, two days after

690
01:02:52.760 --> 01:02:59.440
Laura went missing. Employees with City
Trash had assured them that they would have

691
01:02:59.440 --> 01:03:02.519
seen a body or even blood,
and if they had not seen it,

692
01:03:04.159 --> 01:03:08.559
they would have known the smell.
And remember Amanda had gotten the kids out

693
01:03:08.559 --> 01:03:14.679
of the house on the fourteenth,
Maybe they would have noticed a body.

694
01:03:15.280 --> 01:03:19.800
Who is to say about the blood, especially if the dumpsters were emptied that

695
01:03:19.960 --> 01:03:25.079
soon after her murder, detectives found
out that about forty five trucks had dumped

696
01:03:25.280 --> 01:03:30.079
at the same trash center, So
whatever was in that particular dumpster was under

697
01:03:30.079 --> 01:03:35.400
more than ten feet of trash by
the time they were questioning the city about

698
01:03:35.400 --> 01:03:40.559
it. I've seen on documentaries where
police will go to dumps and search for

699
01:03:40.639 --> 01:03:45.480
bodies. I'm not sure why they
wouldn't have here, except all of this

700
01:03:45.639 --> 01:03:51.440
was happening very fast, and Amanda
and Grant Hayes had just rolled back into

701
01:03:51.480 --> 01:03:54.000
town on the night of the twentieth. Maybe they thought they would get a

702
01:03:54.039 --> 01:04:01.280
confession and find out where Laura was. Then they would, but not from

703
01:04:01.320 --> 01:04:06.199
Grant or Amanda. It was from
Karen Barry, and she was the reason

704
01:04:06.239 --> 01:04:12.800
why Laura's family and friends had a
body to Lateter Rest. Five days after

705
01:04:12.840 --> 01:04:18.519
the investigators were looking in Kinston dumpsters, Laura's remains were being found twelve hundred

706
01:04:18.559 --> 01:04:25.400
miles away in a creek in Richmond, Texas. The investigators did actually go

707
01:04:25.519 --> 01:04:30.840
through the trash and found many things
that helped, including Latex gloves with Laura's

708
01:04:30.920 --> 01:04:34.960
DNA on them, But while they
were in Texas, it was all on

709
01:04:35.039 --> 01:04:42.239
Amanda to get her sister's help.
Karen Barry would testify at both trials.

710
01:04:43.800 --> 01:04:48.159
Grant put it on Amanda to explain
things to Karen. Karen testified that her

711
01:04:48.199 --> 01:04:54.880
sister said, I hurt Laura.
I hurt her bad, and then she

712
01:04:55.039 --> 01:05:00.880
said Laura is dead. She then
called Grant over to join in the conversation.

713
01:05:01.800 --> 01:05:06.119
Karen did point out that she later
asked Amanda if she was covering for

714
01:05:06.199 --> 01:05:12.840
Grant, and her sister just nodded. After that was when she had a

715
01:05:12.840 --> 01:05:18.679
conversation about the creek across from her
house. They asked to borrow Karen's boat.

716
01:05:19.320 --> 01:05:24.000
She claimed she didn't know for sure
what they were doing, but she

717
01:05:24.119 --> 01:05:29.639
guessed. But on their first morning
in Texas, Grant had a conversation with

718
01:05:29.719 --> 01:05:33.679
Karen's son, Dalton. How deep
is that creek? Up to thirteen feet

719
01:05:33.760 --> 01:05:38.800
in some places? Was the answer? Are there alligators in the creek?

720
01:05:39.519 --> 01:05:45.639
Yes? Was the answer. Later, Amanda questioned Karen's other son, Shelton,

721
01:05:46.400 --> 01:05:51.480
do alligators eat people? She asked, Yeah, they're alligators, was

722
01:05:51.519 --> 01:05:58.719
his answer. Then she asked about
hoggs. Shelton managed a business that caught

723
01:05:58.760 --> 01:06:03.719
feral hoggs. What about hogs?
Do they eat people? Shelton said,

724
01:06:03.800 --> 01:06:09.880
yes, I have a search on
my computer now about this question, and

725
01:06:10.000 --> 01:06:14.000
evidently they will eat people, but
they won't eat bones, teeth, or

726
01:06:14.000 --> 01:06:18.679
even fingernails. I hate that I
know this, and so I suppose this

727
01:06:18.719 --> 01:06:26.519
is where the conversation turned to other
ideas. Karen later characterized this as brainstorming.

728
01:06:27.920 --> 01:06:32.519
They discussed disposing of Laura's remains by
feeding them to wild hogs. They

729
01:06:32.559 --> 01:06:36.159
searched for a hole on the property
big enough to bury Laura, but that

730
01:06:36.280 --> 01:06:43.000
idea felled too. Then they considered
storing Laura and Karen's septic tank. That

731
01:06:43.159 --> 01:06:47.119
way, they could just wait for
Laura to fully disintegrate, but the opening

732
01:06:47.159 --> 01:06:55.360
to the septic tank was inaccessible.
Whatever the outcome of this brainstorming, later

733
01:06:55.400 --> 01:06:59.840
that morning, July nineteenth, Amanda
went to an ATM and got cash,

734
01:07:00.119 --> 01:07:04.400
and then Grant went to a local
home depot and again didn't know exactly what

735
01:07:04.480 --> 01:07:10.280
he was looking for, so he
asked for help with covering up an odor.

736
01:07:11.599 --> 01:07:15.360
He said he wanted some kind of
acid, and even though the employee

737
01:07:15.360 --> 01:07:18.320
said that wouldn't work on an odor, he sold Grant a couple of boxes

738
01:07:18.360 --> 01:07:25.400
of muriatic acid what would later be
eight bottles. He also purchased gloves on

739
01:07:25.480 --> 01:07:30.440
the advice of the employee, and
a thirty two gallon trash can. The

740
01:07:30.559 --> 01:07:36.840
acid did not work, but It
explained the difference in decomposition from Laura's head

741
01:07:38.199 --> 01:07:42.599
and the rest of the pieces they
had found. It was most important to

742
01:07:42.719 --> 01:07:47.239
try and dissolve her head because of
the identifying features like her teeth. An

743
01:07:47.320 --> 01:07:53.840
expert would later say they definitely tried
because acid marks were found on Laura's teeth.

744
01:07:55.320 --> 01:07:59.480
There would be another expert who would
analyzed the soil and the hog pen

745
01:07:59.559 --> 01:08:03.960
where Shopton worked and found mariadic acid
in that soil. I don't need to

746
01:08:03.960 --> 01:08:09.400
connect the dots here, and I
don't want to. What is important is

747
01:08:09.440 --> 01:08:14.280
after this, the plan was to
take Karen's boat out on Oyster Creek that

748
01:08:14.519 --> 01:08:20.399
night. Amanda later testified that she
would quote never forget how Grant revealed to

749
01:08:20.399 --> 01:08:25.359
her that Laura's remains were in the
U haul. She said that while they

750
01:08:25.399 --> 01:08:29.600
were at her sister's house in Texas, quote, he was smoking a cigarette

751
01:08:29.640 --> 01:08:32.119
and he was really calm, and
he told me, what would you do

752
01:08:32.279 --> 01:08:36.760
if I told you Laura was dead? He told me he got scared that

753
01:08:36.840 --> 01:08:41.319
he was a black man with a
dead white woman and no one was going

754
01:08:41.359 --> 01:08:45.920
to believe him. When she testified, Amanda said that Grant was holding a

755
01:08:45.960 --> 01:08:50.640
machete when he said these things,
which scared her. She said she was

756
01:08:50.680 --> 01:08:58.159
afraid of not cooperating with his plans. However, Amanda also testified that Grant

757
01:08:58.159 --> 01:09:03.560
had never physically harmed her before.
Security tapes showed Amanda pouring out those same

758
01:09:03.600 --> 01:09:11.920
bottles of muriatic acid near Karen's home, and the discarded bottles were also recovered.

759
01:09:12.720 --> 01:09:16.720
Incidentally, when Amanda was finally arrested, she had on the same clothes

760
01:09:16.760 --> 01:09:20.439
and her mugshot that she had on
in the video of her dumping out the

761
01:09:20.520 --> 01:09:27.039
acid. That will be important later. On the evening of Tuesday, July

762
01:09:27.239 --> 01:09:32.000
nineteenth, Grant and Amanda borrowed Karen's
boat and traveled along Oyster Creek. Over

763
01:09:32.039 --> 01:09:36.560
the course of several hours, they
dropped the portions of Laura's body into the

764
01:09:36.600 --> 01:09:43.239
creek well. Amanda claimed that Grant
did this while she had her back turned

765
01:09:43.279 --> 01:09:47.600
the whole time she helped row the
boat, but never saw or touched any

766
01:09:47.600 --> 01:09:53.039
part of Laura's body. She said
her husband did that she just heard the

767
01:09:53.079 --> 01:09:59.279
water splashes as he dumped them in
the creek. After all of this,

768
01:09:59.520 --> 01:10:02.840
they rushed to return the U haul
at a location in Richmond, then jumped

769
01:10:02.960 --> 01:10:08.760
on the road nineteen hours back,
somehow making it back to Patsy Hayes's home

770
01:10:09.239 --> 01:10:13.399
either late on the twentieth or in
the early morning hours of the twenty first.

771
01:10:14.640 --> 01:10:17.199
Then, on the morning of Monday, July twenty fifth, twenty eleven,

772
01:10:17.560 --> 01:10:21.680
thirty two year old Grant Hayes and
thirty nine year old Amanda Hayes were

773
01:10:21.800 --> 01:10:27.960
arrested for Laura's murder. They were
held at the Wait County Detention Center without

774
01:10:28.000 --> 01:10:33.760
bail. Investigators had not yet matched
DNA taken from Laura's hairbrush as well as

775
01:10:33.760 --> 01:10:39.560
her son's, to the remains they
had found. When they did, a

776
01:10:39.600 --> 01:10:45.359
grand jury returned an indictment on August
fifth. No charges were pressed against Amanda's

777
01:10:45.399 --> 01:10:51.119
sister, Karen Barry, but that's
only because she agreed to cooperate with prosecutors.

778
01:10:51.479 --> 01:10:55.680
She had already known she would have
to face her sister in court.

779
01:10:56.560 --> 01:11:08.359
Now it was official going to pause
for a short commercial break. Craig Brady,

780
01:11:08.680 --> 01:11:13.359
the Chief deputy for the Fort Ben
County Sheriff's Office, was baffled by

781
01:11:13.359 --> 01:11:17.720
this crime. He told the News
and Observer that it seemed strange that someone

782
01:11:17.760 --> 01:11:23.000
would kill their victim, dismember them, and then drive more than one thousand

783
01:11:23.039 --> 01:11:27.800
miles to dispose of the body within
one hundred yards of a known relative.

784
01:11:28.520 --> 01:11:33.119
After passing through a lot of secluded
areas on their way to Texas that were

785
01:11:33.159 --> 01:11:39.880
better suited for a body, Brady
said, So they drove through what five

786
01:11:39.960 --> 01:11:45.760
or six states and over a forty
mile wide swamp in Louisiana, all so

787
01:11:45.840 --> 01:11:49.960
they could bring the body here.
Fortunately, for police, criminals just aren't

788
01:11:50.119 --> 01:11:58.720
very smart. The evidence against Grant
and Amanda was insurmountable. Investigators had found

789
01:11:58.760 --> 01:12:05.039
resperried or masked packaging and LATEX gloves. The DNA on the gloves matched Laura.

790
01:12:05.720 --> 01:12:10.920
Grant had also been caught lying to
the police when they first called him

791
01:12:10.960 --> 01:12:15.800
about Laura's missing person status. Grant
had said he was in Raleigh when he

792
01:12:15.920 --> 01:12:20.039
was actually in Richmond, Texas.
As it turns out, Grant had lied

793
01:12:20.079 --> 01:12:27.119
to law enforcement multiple times. He
had given inconsistent stories regarding his whereabouts on

794
01:12:27.239 --> 01:12:33.399
July thirteenth several times. In the
fall of twenty eleven, law enforcement seized

795
01:12:33.520 --> 01:12:39.960
Grant's email records. That's how they
learned that Grant had reached out to Laura

796
01:12:40.000 --> 01:12:45.079
to invite her to another midweek visit
with her boys. It was just supposed

797
01:12:45.079 --> 01:12:49.199
to be another visit to Monkey Joe's. He had not yet offered to let

798
01:12:49.199 --> 01:12:55.960
her keep the boys until the twenty
fourth. They also saw a few emails

799
01:12:56.039 --> 01:13:00.359
he had sent on July fifteenth to
Laura, again offering the extended time with

800
01:13:00.439 --> 01:13:06.119
her boys and then complaining that she
didn't show up that Friday, which doesn't

801
01:13:06.119 --> 01:13:12.000
make sense between the two anyway.
He did this two days after she was

802
01:13:12.039 --> 01:13:17.199
already dead. Originally, Grant and
Amanda were to be tried together as co

803
01:13:17.399 --> 01:13:24.960
defendants. However, Amanda's attorney accused
Grant of sending Amanda intimidating letters from the

804
01:13:25.000 --> 01:13:30.880
Wake County jail. She alleged that
Grant threatened to kill Amanda and these letters,

805
01:13:30.439 --> 01:13:35.520
so in April of twenty thirteen,
Wake County Judge Donald Stevens ruled that

806
01:13:35.560 --> 01:13:42.920
Grant and Amanda would be tried separately. On Monday, September TEWOD twenty thirteen,

807
01:13:43.479 --> 01:13:46.199
jury's selection began for the trial of
thirty four year old Grant Hayes.

808
01:13:47.720 --> 01:13:53.600
The prosecution's case was simple. They
argued that Grant and Amanda wanted Laura out

809
01:13:53.640 --> 01:13:58.600
of the way so they could have
custody of the two boys. With the

810
01:13:58.640 --> 01:14:02.359
next custody related court date looming on
the horizon in August of twenty eleven,

811
01:14:02.560 --> 01:14:08.039
they knew they had to act fast. As I told you in Part one,

812
01:14:08.399 --> 01:14:13.560
they knew they were about to lose
custody of Grant's sons, so Grant

813
01:14:13.560 --> 01:14:17.920
and Amanda lured Laura to their apartment. They promised her that she would see

814
01:14:17.960 --> 01:14:23.399
her kids for an unexpected midweek visit
that would last to the twenty fourth,

815
01:14:23.560 --> 01:14:30.279
almost twelve full days, and after
she got to their apartment, they were

816
01:14:30.279 --> 01:14:34.840
going to offer Laura twenty five thousand
dollars in exchange for full custody, or

817
01:14:34.960 --> 01:14:39.199
they were really going to force Laura
to sign a piece of paper, saying

818
01:14:39.239 --> 01:14:45.000
that I believe it's doubtful that they
had any intention of letting Laura walk out

819
01:14:45.000 --> 01:14:51.159
of their regardless of what she signed. The state supported their theory with forty

820
01:14:51.159 --> 01:14:59.319
seven witnesses and five hundred pieces of
evidence. Through the testimony of Laura's friends

821
01:14:59.319 --> 01:15:03.960
and family, they proved that Grant
was abusive to her, and the prosecuting

822
01:15:03.960 --> 01:15:10.880
attorneys called to the stand the psychologist, doctor Ginger Calloway, who had evaluated

823
01:15:10.920 --> 01:15:18.119
both Laura and Grant for custody purposes. Doctor Calloway testified that Grant had a

824
01:15:18.239 --> 01:15:24.560
history of illicit drug use, suffered
from a possible mental illness. He was

825
01:15:24.680 --> 01:15:30.439
manipulative and a liar, He had
a DWI, and he had literally told

826
01:15:30.479 --> 01:15:39.319
her that he wanted to obliterate Laura
Akerson. Remember, doctor Calloway's report was

827
01:15:39.359 --> 01:15:44.520
in the Durango wedged, where Grant
would have sat to drive. That report

828
01:15:44.640 --> 01:15:49.159
was a trigger. He was about
to lose, and Grant Hayes didn't lose.

829
01:15:49.920 --> 01:15:57.960
Grant Hayes had to win. Shelton
Karen's son testified that he heard Grant

830
01:15:58.000 --> 01:16:00.840
say to someone on the phone,
I don't need an alibi. I was

831
01:16:00.880 --> 01:16:06.720
with my family. Wonder who he
was talking to. My money is on

832
01:16:06.840 --> 01:16:14.880
Patsy Hayes. The state said the
importance of that note with Laura's handwriting is

833
01:16:14.880 --> 01:16:18.760
that it showed they, or at
least Grant, had intent to kill Laura

834
01:16:19.319 --> 01:16:26.119
and that he had acted in a
cool state of mind. Heidie Schumacher's testimony,

835
01:16:26.439 --> 01:16:30.720
as you can imagine, was not
emotional. She had a spine of

836
01:16:30.760 --> 01:16:35.239
steel and a great memory. She
despised Grant Hayes, and no matter how

837
01:16:35.319 --> 01:16:40.960
sad she was for Laura. Her
calm and collected demeanor on the stand was

838
01:16:41.000 --> 01:16:45.119
a credit to her. It wasn't
just an emotional friend who was guessing.

839
01:16:45.600 --> 01:16:51.319
She knew dates, times, the
whole story. She testified approximately two months

840
01:16:51.359 --> 01:16:57.039
before her death. She told me
she was very worried, and she said,

841
01:16:57.359 --> 01:17:00.840
Heidi, if anything happens to me, if I come out suicide,

842
01:17:00.920 --> 01:17:03.119
or if I go missing, or
if I get into a car accident,

843
01:17:03.640 --> 01:17:10.960
Grant did it. The state also
put on Grant's jailhouse companion, a man

844
01:17:11.039 --> 01:17:16.399
named Pablo Trinidad. I know,
I know, jailhouse informants are not always

845
01:17:16.439 --> 01:17:20.720
the best, but as the state
will later prove, Pablo had no way

846
01:17:20.760 --> 01:17:27.279
of reading any articles about what happened
before he testified, because it wasn't coming

847
01:17:27.319 --> 01:17:32.960
out in the papers or online until
after he testified. And he humbly said

848
01:17:33.000 --> 01:17:38.359
there were no promises made to him
about his sentence. He just hoped it

849
01:17:38.399 --> 01:17:43.159
would look good for the parole board. Pablo was serving twenty one years for

850
01:17:43.279 --> 01:17:47.680
conspiracy to traffic in cocaine and possession
of a firearm, so he was a

851
01:17:47.720 --> 01:17:55.680
convicted felon, but not a murderer. Remember Pablo's twenty one year sentence by

852
01:17:55.760 --> 01:18:00.159
the way, He and Grant were
in the same housing area of the jail

853
01:18:00.439 --> 01:18:05.359
for around one to two weeks.
Pablo testified that one day the inmates were

854
01:18:05.399 --> 01:18:11.399
watching Grant's case being covered on TV. Seeing what Grant was accused of the

855
01:18:11.479 --> 01:18:16.560
other inmates were outraged. They wanted
to jump Grant, but Pablo diffused the

856
01:18:16.600 --> 01:18:23.680
situation. After this incident, Grant
admitted to Pablo that he called Laura and

857
01:18:23.760 --> 01:18:30.960
convinced her to come to his apartment
under false pretenses of settling the custody dispute.

858
01:18:30.000 --> 01:18:35.239
Pablo testified that Grant told him she
was an unfit mother and that they'd

859
01:18:35.279 --> 01:18:40.520
been having a custody battle for some
years now, going back and forth,

860
01:18:40.800 --> 01:18:44.079
and he was just tired of it, so he said that he placed a

861
01:18:44.119 --> 01:18:47.039
call to her and lured her to
his apartment, and that's when him and

862
01:18:47.119 --> 01:18:54.920
his wife subdued her and strangled her. And the famous doctor Deborah Radish from

863
01:18:54.960 --> 01:19:03.119
the Michael Peterson case testified that Laura's
next sustained wound consistent with stabbing or strangulation.

864
01:19:04.319 --> 01:19:09.680
There was no way to be sure
which, but she was sure the

865
01:19:09.760 --> 01:19:15.079
wound was not from the dismemberment.
Laura had suffered the injury to her fourth

866
01:19:15.159 --> 01:19:20.560
cervical vertebra, as well as damage
to certain tissue and thyroid cartilage. So

867
01:19:20.680 --> 01:19:27.479
it's very possible she was strangled.
Remember that apple power cord you have in

868
01:19:27.520 --> 01:19:32.000
your back pocket. Doctor Radish agreed
that was a possibility. She also said

869
01:19:32.439 --> 01:19:38.399
it was very possible it was a
knife wound. Remember there were missing knives

870
01:19:38.439 --> 01:19:43.439
from the kitchen block. If I
had to guess, they tried to use

871
01:19:43.479 --> 01:19:46.159
the apple cord first, and she
struggled too much, so someone lost their

872
01:19:46.199 --> 01:19:53.640
temper and used the knife. Or
maybe strangling was taking too long it's not

873
01:19:53.840 --> 01:19:59.159
how it looks in the movies.
Or maybe Laura fought like hell for her

874
01:19:59.239 --> 01:20:03.560
life she knew she had to and
was making too much noise, so they

875
01:20:03.640 --> 01:20:10.119
used the knife. Whatever happened,
it's very clear that a great deal of

876
01:20:10.159 --> 01:20:15.279
blood was spilled near that front door, Like I said, as Laura was

877
01:20:15.319 --> 01:20:21.880
almost making her escape. I've mentioned
Diane's Fanning's book It remains several times.

878
01:20:23.239 --> 01:20:27.119
It is an amazing read, and
if for no other reason than to get

879
01:20:27.159 --> 01:20:31.399
her idea of those last moments,
I may not actually believe that is how

880
01:20:31.439 --> 01:20:38.199
it happened, but I like how
she wanted to think it did. Grant's

881
01:20:38.199 --> 01:20:43.319
defense team took one definitive stance.
Yes, Grant had helped get rid of

882
01:20:43.399 --> 01:20:48.439
Laura's body, but he hadn't killed
Laura. His wife, Amanda was entirely

883
01:20:48.520 --> 01:20:55.600
responsible for that. They repeated the
story I told you earlier, how Grant

884
01:20:55.680 --> 01:20:59.439
left the room for a short period
of time, then when he returned,

885
01:20:59.760 --> 01:21:05.039
Laura was somehow dead by Amanda's hands. The defense was vague on how she

886
01:21:05.119 --> 01:21:11.439
died, but they claimed that it
was an accidental death, not an orchestrated

887
01:21:11.520 --> 01:21:15.720
murder scheme. Amanda and Laura had
simply gotten into a fight that went wrong.

888
01:21:17.159 --> 01:21:24.279
The defense's first witness was Amanda's sister, Karen. Karen testified about how

889
01:21:24.359 --> 01:21:29.640
Amanda came in and told her that
she had quote hurt Laura and hurt her

890
01:21:29.680 --> 01:21:35.239
bad. Grant's attorneys leaned heavily on
this statement, and Grant's defense attorney said

891
01:21:35.279 --> 01:21:41.000
in opening statements, the evidence will
show that the death of the victim happened

892
01:21:41.039 --> 01:21:46.119
in a spontaneous, unpredictable way at
the hands of Amanda Hayes. The defendant

893
01:21:46.279 --> 01:21:50.800
helped clean up the evidence and dispose
of the body. That's a serious thing.

894
01:21:51.319 --> 01:21:57.680
That's a terrible thing, but it's
not murder. No, he just

895
01:21:57.760 --> 01:22:02.239
dismembered the mother of his children with
a reciprocating saul, drove her remains across

896
01:22:02.319 --> 01:22:09.760
country and tried to feed her to
alligators. And we're supposed to believe he

897
01:22:09.840 --> 01:22:15.680
did all of that even though he
didn't kill Laura. As Becky Holt,

898
01:22:15.920 --> 01:22:19.640
a prosecutor, would say in closing
arguments, he robbed her of her life

899
01:22:20.119 --> 01:22:27.199
and he robbed her of her dignity. In closing arguments, the state played

900
01:22:27.199 --> 01:22:30.880
a song Grant wrote and performed about
Laura when he first went to New York.

901
01:22:31.560 --> 01:22:38.960
It was called Broomstick Writer. The
words were my baby's mama, don't

902
01:22:39.000 --> 01:22:42.800
talk to me, don't want your
drama. I got two kids by you.

903
01:22:43.239 --> 01:22:45.279
I can't take any more from you. I put a price tag on

904
01:22:45.359 --> 01:22:49.600
your head. You must have told
your attorney I got intentions of killing you.

905
01:22:51.680 --> 01:22:57.880
And the worst part, Grant bounced
in his seat as the prosecution played

906
01:22:57.880 --> 01:23:01.119
this song for the court. He
literally sat there, dancing in his seat,

907
01:23:01.560 --> 01:23:08.880
mouthing the words. The state,
after calling forty seven witnesses and introducing

908
01:23:08.920 --> 01:23:13.399
more than five hundred pieces of evidence
over the last two weeks, was finally

909
01:23:13.439 --> 01:23:17.920
finished. The jury of four men
and eight women listened and then watched as

910
01:23:18.000 --> 01:23:25.880
Grant Hayes jammed along in his seat
to his song Broomstick Rider that was probably

911
01:23:25.920 --> 01:23:31.760
more effective than anything they said and
closing. The trial lasted nearly two weeks,

912
01:23:31.840 --> 01:23:36.199
and on Monday, September sixteenth,
twenty thirteen, after ninety minutes of

913
01:23:36.199 --> 01:23:42.359
deliberation, the jury found Grant Hayes
the third guilty of first degree murder.

914
01:23:43.199 --> 01:23:48.439
He was automatically sentenced to life in
prison without parole at the advice of his

915
01:23:48.560 --> 01:23:54.159
counsel. Grant had not testified at
his own trial. Later he would say

916
01:23:54.199 --> 01:23:58.960
that he wished he had testified.
He felt he was misled by his lawyers.

917
01:23:59.399 --> 01:24:03.920
Grant firm believed that from the very
beginning his trial was rigged. Yeah.

918
01:24:04.000 --> 01:24:09.319
Right. The presiding judge, Donald
Stevens said it best to quote,

919
01:24:10.079 --> 01:24:13.800
I think that a jury verdict in
a case like this in an hour and

920
01:24:13.840 --> 01:24:19.840
a half probably speaks louder than anything
anyone could say about this case. Right

921
01:24:19.840 --> 01:24:26.800
away, Grant's attorneys announced their intentions
to appeal. He didn't testify on his

922
01:24:26.840 --> 01:24:30.800
own behalf, but he was happy
to give a jailhouse interview and continue to

923
01:24:30.840 --> 01:24:36.560
throw Amanda under the bus. Speaking
with ABC eleven, Grant Hayes claimed he

924
01:24:36.600 --> 01:24:43.399
didn't kill Laura. He said Amanda
killed her in an act of self defense.

925
01:24:43.600 --> 01:24:47.119
Quote. As Amanda was walking away, Laura snatched her back by her

926
01:24:47.159 --> 01:24:50.840
hair after telling her she was going
to take her child from her, and

927
01:24:50.840 --> 01:24:56.279
Amanda told me that she forcefully hit
her in the throat with her elbow.

928
01:24:57.840 --> 01:25:00.119
Grant said when he came back into
the room, Laura was lying on the

929
01:25:00.159 --> 01:25:05.279
floor bleeding from her nose and Amanda
was screaming. It does not dawn on

930
01:25:05.359 --> 01:25:09.600
me in any way that she might
be mortally wounded at all. I mean

931
01:25:09.840 --> 01:25:13.520
I was gone out of the room
less than a minute, literally, and

932
01:25:13.640 --> 01:25:17.159
uh, Laura died in front of
me and my son, little Grant.

933
01:25:18.279 --> 01:25:23.119
Of course, he couldn't deny what
he did with that saw in his bathroom,

934
01:25:23.800 --> 01:25:28.680
but it's like he feels sorry for
himself. It's awful, he said.

935
01:25:29.039 --> 01:25:32.399
It's something you never want to experience
or know what it's like. It's

936
01:25:32.479 --> 01:25:41.640
haunting. This mother trucker said it
was haunting for him. He went on

937
01:25:41.720 --> 01:25:45.600
to say, I need to extend
my condolences to Laura's family and friends and

938
01:25:45.600 --> 01:25:49.720
to my family as well. But
I didn't kill Laura. And as bad

939
01:25:49.880 --> 01:25:55.840
of a crime as desecrating a corpse
is, it's a worse crime to sentence

940
01:25:55.840 --> 01:26:00.439
a man to life without giving him
a fair trial. Hey, buddy,

941
01:26:00.800 --> 01:26:04.680
your attorney can't stop you from testifying. They can't help it if you're stupid,

942
01:26:05.159 --> 01:26:09.680
and they were smart to advise you
to stay off the stand. You

943
01:26:09.800 --> 01:26:15.800
were your own worst enemy. In
twenty fifteen, Grant did appeal, but

944
01:26:15.880 --> 01:26:20.760
nothing came of it. Today,
forty four year old Grant Hayes is in

945
01:26:20.800 --> 01:26:27.520
the Eastern Correctional Institution in Marey,
North Carolina. He will never be released.

946
01:26:29.760 --> 01:26:39.479
I'm going to pause now for a
final commercial break. By the time

947
01:26:39.560 --> 01:26:45.159
Amanda's trial came around, this was
a highly publicized case. Camera crews from

948
01:26:45.159 --> 01:26:49.840
Inside Edition and other national media outlets
were staking out seats in the courtroom.

949
01:26:50.359 --> 01:26:57.199
Nancy Grace, NBC's Dateline, and
numerous other court TV shows were also following

950
01:26:57.279 --> 01:27:02.319
the case. In January of twenty
fourteen, three years after Laura was murdered,

951
01:27:02.680 --> 01:27:09.680
forty one year old Amanda Hayes's jury
trial finally began. The prosecution presented

952
01:27:09.760 --> 01:27:15.239
basically the same case they had against
Grant, he and Amanda were both equally

953
01:27:15.319 --> 01:27:19.680
responsible for Laura's murder. It was
on purpose, and it was to avoid

954
01:27:19.920 --> 01:27:27.000
a bitter custody battle. Amanda's defense
counsel also took a similar approach to Grant's

955
01:27:27.000 --> 01:27:32.720
attorneys during his trial. They argued
that Grant had killed Laura, not Amanda.

956
01:27:33.319 --> 01:27:38.680
After she fell or hurt herself,
Grant told Amanda to take the kids

957
01:27:38.760 --> 01:27:44.399
and leave, and he took Laura
into the bathroom. Amanda had only helped

958
01:27:44.399 --> 01:27:48.760
with the body disposal when she realized
that Laura's remains were in the U haul

959
01:27:49.000 --> 01:27:56.119
they had towed to Texas. Amanda's
lawyers painted Grant as an intimidating figure who

960
01:27:56.199 --> 01:28:00.840
had pressured Amanda into her role in
the crime. So we are supposed to

961
01:28:00.960 --> 01:28:06.119
believe that Amanda didn't know Laura was
in the main bathroom of that apartment,

962
01:28:06.960 --> 01:28:13.039
the bathroom the kids used for four
days. She got to their apartment on

963
01:28:13.079 --> 01:28:16.720
the thirteenth, They left for Texas
on the night of the sixteenth. Four

964
01:28:16.840 --> 01:28:21.159
days. It took them to dismember
Laura and sneak her out in coolers to

965
01:28:21.199 --> 01:28:29.239
the U haul, but Amanda had
no idea sure, the defense said Grant

966
01:28:29.279 --> 01:28:33.159
was a sociopath and had the nerve
to call Laura and Amanda both victims.

967
01:28:33.880 --> 01:28:41.279
Amanda's team described Grant as seeming very
charming, witty, and very talented while

968
01:28:41.319 --> 01:28:46.439
actually being controlling, manipulative, and
deceitful, which was true, but those

969
01:28:46.520 --> 01:28:53.680
last three words were perfect for Amanda. Hayes two. Amanda did testify on

970
01:28:53.800 --> 01:28:58.880
her own behalf. I bet there
was no talking her out of it.

971
01:28:59.520 --> 01:29:04.560
Little miss actress thought she had this. During her testimony, Amanda said she

972
01:29:04.680 --> 01:29:09.319
wanted to leave Grant as soon as
she found out that he had murdered Laura,

973
01:29:10.159 --> 01:29:13.840
but she couldn't because she thought he
would hurt her newborn daughter or her

974
01:29:13.840 --> 01:29:18.960
older daughter, Shay. I watched
her testimony on YouTube. She sits there

975
01:29:19.039 --> 01:29:23.640
in her pink dress, in her
little girl voice, saying no, ma'am,

976
01:29:24.239 --> 01:29:29.680
no, ma'am, over and over
when Prosecutor Becky holt asks her repeatedly

977
01:29:30.079 --> 01:29:35.079
about seeing Laura's body, about helping
dump Laura's body. We are to believe

978
01:29:35.199 --> 01:29:40.640
she turned her back while on that
boat in Oyster Creek and didn't help her

979
01:29:40.720 --> 01:29:47.640
husband bullshit. Her wide eyed little
girl routine was sickening. The prosecution called

980
01:29:47.640 --> 01:29:54.000
Amanda a liar. One attorney said
her statements were so ridiculous compared to the

981
01:29:54.000 --> 01:30:00.079
physical evidence that she made zero sense. They also pointed to her background as

982
01:30:00.079 --> 01:30:06.800
an actress. Prosecutor Bob Zellinger said
she has given the performance of her life.

983
01:30:06.880 --> 01:30:12.720
The state also pointed out the testimony
of Amanda's cellmate. That cellmate said

984
01:30:12.720 --> 01:30:18.159
Amanda told them Laura died during a
kitchen accident in Amanda's apartment, which really

985
01:30:18.199 --> 01:30:24.000
goes against the whole I wasn't even
in the apartment at the time story that

986
01:30:24.079 --> 01:30:30.479
Amanda's defense counsel was peddling a kitchen
accident is also interesting with the knife theory

987
01:30:30.600 --> 01:30:36.199
and the huge bleach stain by the
front door Laura bled there, so like

988
01:30:36.279 --> 01:30:43.880
Pablo before. In Grant's trial,
Lara's cellmate's story rang true. She also

989
01:30:44.039 --> 01:30:47.720
testified that she was not promised anything
for her testimony and the defense could not

990
01:30:47.840 --> 01:30:56.000
prove otherwise. Plus, the prosecution
pointed out that Amanda had continued to correspond

991
01:30:56.079 --> 01:31:00.319
with Grant even after they were incarcerated. She would write letters to Grant's mother,

992
01:31:00.600 --> 01:31:06.800
who would then relay them to Grant. Patsy Hayes wasted no time bringing

993
01:31:06.840 --> 01:31:12.239
them to the prosecutor to make her
daughter in law look bad. In the

994
01:31:12.359 --> 01:31:15.960
letters, Amanda told Grant how much
she loved him and thought about him every

995
01:31:16.039 --> 01:31:24.760
day. While the nuances of a
domestically violent relationship could allow this to happen,

996
01:31:25.159 --> 01:31:29.319
it does make you wonder how can
she still love a man who blamed

997
01:31:29.359 --> 01:31:34.079
it all on her to save himself. And let's not forget. She also

998
01:31:34.199 --> 01:31:42.359
testified that he had never harmed her. Doctor Callaway testified that the Hayeses wanted

999
01:31:42.399 --> 01:31:46.039
full custody of the two and three
year old boys and that their wishes,

1000
01:31:46.199 --> 01:31:54.520
comments and actions suggested that they would
quote effectively erase Laura as the children's mother.

1001
01:31:55.079 --> 01:32:00.520
There was a collective insensitivity to the
children's needs for their mother. Although

1002
01:32:00.560 --> 01:32:05.840
Grant declined to testify for Amanda,
how could he since he blamed her and

1003
01:32:06.039 --> 01:32:12.319
he couldn't risk being cross examined for
his own appeal, But he did give

1004
01:32:12.359 --> 01:32:17.680
that Jeilhouse interview and supported his wife
quote, my wife is not guilty of

1005
01:32:17.800 --> 01:32:21.560
murder in any sense of the word. What she did was a reflex,

1006
01:32:23.000 --> 01:32:27.880
and the injury sustained as a result
of her defending herself and her child led

1007
01:32:27.920 --> 01:32:34.800
to her death. Grant Hayes then
actually said Laura got herself killed. The

1008
01:32:34.880 --> 01:32:41.119
trial had more than ten days of
testimony and over fifty witnesses. On Wednesday,

1009
01:32:41.119 --> 01:32:45.600
February nineteenth, twenty fourteen, after
ninety minutes of deliberation, the jury

1010
01:32:45.680 --> 01:32:51.920
convicted forty one year old Amanda Hayes
of second degree murder. She was sentenced

1011
01:32:53.159 --> 01:32:58.880
to thirteen to sixteen years in prison. Pablo Trinidad got twenty one years for

1012
01:32:58.960 --> 01:33:06.039
cocaine and fire possession. Let that
sink in. This was obviously a disappointment

1013
01:33:06.079 --> 01:33:10.640
to Minny, as the jury could
have sentenced her to first degree murder.

1014
01:33:11.560 --> 01:33:15.199
Then Amanda would have been automatically sentenced
to life in prison without parole, just

1015
01:33:15.319 --> 01:33:20.720
like Grant. Laura's father, Roger, who sat through every day of the

1016
01:33:20.800 --> 01:33:26.439
trial, said of Amanda, she's
a manipulator, She's a liar. She

1017
01:33:26.680 --> 01:33:30.600
uses that sing songy voice when she
wants to get something from you that doesn't

1018
01:33:30.680 --> 01:33:36.359
work with me. I don't think
it was the pink dress, or Amanda's

1019
01:33:36.359 --> 01:33:42.840
testimony or her voice. I do
just think the jury believed Grant was the

1020
01:33:42.920 --> 01:33:47.920
murderer and Amanda was his accomplice.
That's what most people believe. But since

1021
01:33:47.960 --> 01:33:54.439
Amanda had not received as harsh of
a sentence as Grant. North Carolina prosecutors

1022
01:33:54.479 --> 01:34:00.920
called Texas prosecutors and gave them the
heads up prosecute Amanda Hayes in Texas for

1023
01:34:00.960 --> 01:34:04.920
the disposal of Laura's body. She
had now admitted to being there an open

1024
01:34:05.000 --> 01:34:09.720
court. She knew Laura was dead. She knew she was at the very

1025
01:34:09.800 --> 01:34:15.880
least helping Grant. In twenty eighteen, forty six year old Amanda was tried

1026
01:34:15.920 --> 01:34:21.960
for tampering with evidence, in this
case a corpse in Texas. They had

1027
01:34:21.960 --> 01:34:27.159
that dear hunter's video of her dumping
the acid, and she was wearing the

1028
01:34:27.279 --> 01:34:32.720
exact same clothes in her booking photo
in North Carolina. Amanda was convicted and

1029
01:34:32.760 --> 01:34:38.640
given the maximum. She was sentenced
to an additional twenty years in prison,

1030
01:34:39.159 --> 01:34:45.640
which was the maximum amount she could
have received. Amanda's sentences will be served

1031
01:34:45.720 --> 01:34:50.880
consecutively, so once she finishes her
time in the Antsign Correctional Institute in Polkton,

1032
01:34:50.960 --> 01:34:57.399
North Carolina, they'll cart her ass
straight to Texas. If Amanda ever

1033
01:34:57.439 --> 01:35:00.359
gets out of prison, she'll be
in her seventies. Today she is fifty

1034
01:35:00.359 --> 01:35:06.399
one years old. I saw on
one documentary a Texas prosecutor say that it

1035
01:35:06.479 --> 01:35:12.600
wasn't unusual to hear from other prosecutors
within their state, but the call from

1036
01:35:12.640 --> 01:35:19.239
North Carolina was a first and they
were happy to oblige. Amanda and Grant

1037
01:35:19.319 --> 01:35:25.079
have since divorced, and as far
as my research could find, Amanda has

1038
01:35:25.159 --> 01:35:31.479
never appealed, which might seem odd, but author Diane Fanning explained it pretty

1039
01:35:31.479 --> 01:35:39.399
well in an interview with WRL News
promoting her book Bitter Remains. She's not

1040
01:35:39.479 --> 01:35:44.800
a stupid woman. Fanning said about
Amanda going on, she knows that if

1041
01:35:44.840 --> 01:35:48.479
she went for a new trial,
there's a strong possibility that this time the

1042
01:35:48.560 --> 01:35:57.359
jury wouldn't be convinced that she was
partially a victim. It appears that Grant

1043
01:35:57.399 --> 01:36:01.520
and Laura's two sons are being raised
by grant aunt's mother, Patsy. In

1044
01:36:01.600 --> 01:36:06.640
early August of twenty eleven, Laura's
father filed for custody of the young boys.

1045
01:36:08.279 --> 01:36:13.920
However, three years later, in
February twenty fourteen, grant'smother, Patsy,

1046
01:36:14.079 --> 01:36:18.880
was still their primary guardian. Roger
Akerson later died in twenty twenty one

1047
01:36:18.920 --> 01:36:25.079
at the age of seventy five.
He is buried near his daughter as far

1048
01:36:25.119 --> 01:36:29.840
as we can tell, Brenda,
Laura's mother evidently still lives in Michigan and

1049
01:36:29.880 --> 01:36:33.199
her married name is now Brooks.
I have found no indication that she came

1050
01:36:33.239 --> 01:36:38.359
to the trial or was in any
way interested in what happened to her daughter.

1051
01:36:40.000 --> 01:36:45.680
Incidentally, Patsy Hayes lost her daycare
as a result of the bad publicity.

1052
01:36:45.560 --> 01:36:50.319
Two thirds of her children dropped out
until there wasn't much use in continuing

1053
01:36:50.359 --> 01:36:56.560
on. I don't feel at all
sorry for her, except that as guardian

1054
01:36:56.640 --> 01:37:00.039
of Laura's children, I would have
wanted her to be financial stable. Of

1055
01:37:00.159 --> 01:37:04.359
course, so it's hard for me
to sneer at Patsy losing her business,

1056
01:37:05.000 --> 01:37:12.560
even if she did deserve to.
Laura Akerson's sons are now fifteen and fourteen

1057
01:37:12.640 --> 01:37:17.119
years old, soon to be sixteen
and fifteen. I cannot even imagine how

1058
01:37:17.159 --> 01:37:21.960
their lives have been. A doubt
they would even remember the warm, loving

1059
01:37:23.039 --> 01:37:28.159
mother who fought so desperately to get
custody of them back from her abusive X

1060
01:37:28.760 --> 01:37:33.680
their father. Laura's phone and her
tape recorder, along with her purse,

1061
01:37:33.880 --> 01:37:40.039
were never found, while the state
could subpoena her text and email records.

1062
01:37:40.279 --> 01:37:45.000
Whatever was recorded on that phone,
and that tape recorder was lost forever.

1063
01:37:45.199 --> 01:37:50.479
There's no doubt in my mind the
recordings would have buried Grant in the custody

1064
01:37:50.560 --> 01:37:57.800
case. Their poor mother, who
had always been too smart, to be

1065
01:37:57.880 --> 01:38:03.439
alone with Grant Hayes again until he
offered her something he knew she couldn't resist,

1066
01:38:03.960 --> 01:38:10.920
twelve solid straight days with her boys
after a year of weekends. Only

1067
01:38:11.560 --> 01:38:16.359
that lure was just too strong.
As one of the state's prosecutors said,

1068
01:38:16.960 --> 01:38:21.000
he couldn't control her in life,
so now he has to control her in

1069
01:38:21.079 --> 01:38:28.439
death. As the other prosecutor said, he wanted to erase Laura from his

1070
01:38:28.600 --> 01:38:34.760
life. He wanted to have a
family without Laura in it. This has

1071
01:38:34.880 --> 01:38:41.680
been one of the most horrific cases
I've ever covered, But like almost every

1072
01:38:41.720 --> 01:38:48.359
domestic violence case that ends in murder, it was about control. Grant Hayes

1073
01:38:48.439 --> 01:38:54.720
had lost control of Laura Akerson,
so he could not let her live.

1074
01:39:00.680 --> 01:39:05.439
Southern Fried True Crime is hosted and
produced by me Erica Kelly. I'm sorry

1075
01:39:05.479 --> 01:39:10.880
the creek did rise with almost thirteen
thousand words more, and I couldn't bear

1076
01:39:10.960 --> 01:39:15.760
to split this into three parts,
even though there were two trials. Today's

1077
01:39:15.840 --> 01:39:19.800
episode was written by me Erica Kelly
and was researched by me and Andrea Marshbak.

1078
01:39:20.119 --> 01:39:25.079
Southern Fred's original music is by Rob
Harrison of Gamma Radio and the original

1079
01:39:25.079 --> 01:39:29.960
graphic artist by Coley Horner. Today's
episode was edited and mixed by Brendan Schecksnier

1080
01:39:30.039 --> 01:39:33.079
of Southern Gothic and Erica Kelly.
As I said, an excellent read for

1081
01:39:33.119 --> 01:39:39.880
this case is Diane Fannings's Bitter Remains, a custody battle, a gruesome crime,

1082
01:39:39.960 --> 01:39:44.079
and the mother who paid the ultimate
price. It was a very helpful

1083
01:39:44.159 --> 01:39:48.199
source and of course covers way more
ground than I could ever in two episodes.

1084
01:39:48.720 --> 01:39:53.159
If you have any case suggestions,
please go to my website Southernfred True

1085
01:39:53.159 --> 01:39:58.000
Crime dot com and click on the
listener suggestion to app or email SFTC Research

1086
01:39:58.079 --> 01:40:01.000
at gmail dot com. Please remember
that I do not accept suggestions on social

1087
01:40:01.039 --> 01:40:04.760
media private messages, but please remember
to come join our Facebook group, Southern

1088
01:40:04.760 --> 01:40:09.840
Fred True Crime Fans Discussion Group,
where we swap recipes, worship Dolly Parton,

1089
01:40:09.920 --> 01:40:13.399
and share memes. We do,
of course discuss true crime, not

1090
01:40:13.439 --> 01:40:15.840
just Southern fraud, but all kinds, but it is still very much a

1091
01:40:15.920 --> 01:40:19.880
Southern Lifestyle Group. Our group is
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1092
01:40:19.920 --> 01:40:24.000
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1093
01:40:24.199 --> 01:40:27.119
It's not just a motto, it's
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1094
01:40:27.159 --> 01:40:30.199
you enjoy today's show, don't forget
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1095
01:40:30.319 --> 01:40:34.840
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1096
01:40:34.920 --> 01:40:40.960
Amazon, Audible, and YouTube.
Until next time, thanks so much for

1097
01:40:41.039 --> 01:40:42.880
listening. Y'all. Take care