178: Parental Alienation & The Death of Dr. Rick Lohstroh

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Southern fried True crime covers cases that
are not suitable for young listeners, and

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there may also be some explicit language
used. Listener discretion is advised. We

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know that about half of all marriages
end in divorce. The data changes slightly

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year to year, but that unfortunate
percentage stays about the same, and divorce

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is difficult no matter who you are
or how much money you have, although

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a good therapist and support system certainly
make it easier. But when children are

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involved, the stakes are so much
higher. Some parents work very hard to

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make the experience as smooth as possible
for their kids. It will still be

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a trauma. There's no avoiding some
pain for the littles. But some marriages

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can end with minimal carnage for the
kids. Other marriages that end, say,

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over infidelity, are harder to mitigate. We think we can hide things

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from our kids, but they will
always find out the truth, especially if

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that parent will then be in a
relationship with the other lover afterwards. Even

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in the most civil of breakups,
there will be damage done. In these

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situations, the children must also adjust
to a new adult in their life,

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often a new authority figure. Maybe
not right away but soon and then we

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have the type of parents who weaponize
their own children. Sometimes the kids are

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treated as pawns in a messy game
of adult chess. Other children are quite

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frankly, dropped in the middle of
a battleground that they have no business being

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in. Parents bad mouthing each other
is awful, but sometimes it gets to

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the point that a judge must intervene. Some parents even lie during the custody

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phase, not just to hurt their
former spouse, but to gain full custody,

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feeding their lies to their own children. We have a modern phrase for

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the now, parental alienation. It's
not like it's a new problem. It's

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just that we are only starting to
really talk about it. And you know

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how long it takes for legislation to
catch up to anything. The courts are

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trying, but the system calls for
psychiatrists and other professionals who must decide what

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is true, which is a huge
burden, a responsibility that takes a lot

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of time and causes even more trauma, and those children in the middle are

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so confused. Brainwashed is not a
pretty word, and not one I use

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lightly, but there isn't a more
concise way to explain what is happening to

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these kids, so they are truly
weaponized. In today's case, one of

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those parents was also irresponsible with guns. A gun was not properly locked away

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from a child, and an unthinkable
tragedy occurred. Welcome to Episode one seventy

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eight, Parental Alienation and the death
of Doctor Rick Lostro. Rick James Greene

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was born on March twenty eighth of
nineteen sixty three to his father, Richard

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and his mother, Joanne, and
Spokane, Washington. Rick had two sisters

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and one brother, and although he
was born in Spokane, he spent his

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childhood living in a few different states, including Idaho and Texas. Rick's father

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was in the US Air Force from
nineteen sixty two to nineteen sixty six,

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so it's likely the green family moved
around for his dad's military job. Ultimately,

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Rick's parents settled down in South Carolina, and Rick made his home in

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Texas. As he entered adulthood,
he decided to pursue medicine and become a

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doctor. He attended the Texas Tech
School of Medicine in Lubbock, and then

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he completed his residency at the University
of Texas Medical Branch in Galveston, But

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when Rick graduated from medical school,
he didn't become doctor Rick Green like you

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might think. Sometime during this period, Rick changed his last name from Green

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to Lowestrip. We have no idea
why Rick did it. Maybe there was

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another relative or authority figure in his
life that he had admired. I do

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know many doctors choose to change their
names before they are certified, because afterward

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they cannot. They are legally required
to get a fictitious name permit if they

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want to. Many do it to
simplify a name that may be hard to

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pronounce or spell. So, for
whatever reason, when Rick graduated from medical

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school, he was officially doctor Rick
Lostro, and Doctor Rick Lostro appeared to

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be doing very well. He became
a pulmonary medicine specialist, meaning he helped

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diagnose and treat people's lung conditions,
and he was also an assistant professor and

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emergency room care physician at the University
of Texas Medical Branch, the same place

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he had completed his residency in the
nineties about two thousand and four. Rick

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had also been married, had kids, and divorced. He had two sons

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we will call the older son Aaron, and the younger son, Kurt.

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The boys were a few years apart
in August of two thousand and four,

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Aaron was ten years old and Kurt
was seven. According to Rick's friends,

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he was a stellar dad. He
loved his sons dearly and wanted nothing but

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the best for them. Rick's attorney, Kathleen Collins said he was a man

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that did everything he could to help
his children. They loved their father,

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and Rick loved them. But rick
Sex wife, Deborah felt differently, very

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differently. Deborah thought Rick was a
terrible father, and maybe that's not surprising.

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As I said before, it could
be for many reasons, from petty

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to a calculated bid for full custody. Still, the courts thought Rick and

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Deborah were both fit parents, and
they both were granted equal custody of their

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two boys. So Rick and Deborah
had to do what divorced parents do and

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figure it out. But it's safe
to say they did not excel at figuring

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it out. At least one parent
didn't. The result was a week by

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week custody arrangement. Aaron and Kurt
would live with their mother, Deborah and

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Katie, Texas for one week,
and then the next week they would live

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with their father Rick, an hour
and twenty minutes away in Friendswood, Texas.

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Every Friday, the boys would pack
their bags and truck themselves over to

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whichever parent had them that week.
The lowstro boys found this arrangement to be

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pretty stressful. It is hard to
upreach your life every seven days, especially

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since their parents didn't live in the
same town. Like I said, Katy

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and Friendswood are about an hour and
twenty minutes apart, And if Katy sounds

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familiar, it's because I've covered two
cases there. Belinda Temple and Fred Mangione.

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At three forty five pm on Friday, August twenty seventh of two thousand

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and four, Aaron and Kurt had
just gotten home. For the past week,

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they had been staying at their mother, Deborah's home. Normally, they

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would do the switch up process in
the school parking lot, but the boys

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had a therapy appointment that afternoon.
Since they weren't at school, Rick had

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to pick them up at Deborah's house. Now he was waiting in Deborah's driveway.

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He parked his Toyota Forerunner and was
sitting in the driver's seat. Deborah

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was helping Kurt tie his shoes,
and Aaron had run off to get his

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backpack. Aaron came out of the
house and climbed into his dad's suv.

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He sat in the seat directly behind
his father and began searching through his back

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pack. And that's when ten year
old Aaron wrapped his hand around a forty

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five caliber semi automatic pistol. Then
he shot his father, forty one year

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old Rick Lostrow in the back.
The first time Aaron pulled the trigger,

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the gun was still in his backpack. The bullet ripped through the bag and

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the back of the driver's seat before
entering Rick's body. After the first shot,

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Rick started screaming. Later, Aaron
would explain that his father's screams frightened

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him, so Aaron took the gun
out of his backpack and shot his father

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several more times. After that,
he got out of the car. Then

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he fired off a few more shots
toward his father's suv. At least one

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hit the neighbor's car. Then Aaron
ran inside his mother's house. Debrah took

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the gun away from him and called
nine one one. An autopsy would later

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show that Rick died from five guns
shot wounds to his back. Rick Lostro's

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fifth grader son shot and killed him, and he claimed that he did so

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out of fear, that he murdered
his father to defend himself and his seven

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year old little brother. But why
would Aaron feel that way, Why would

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he be so scared of his father, who was a respected medical professional,

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And how did he get a hold
of that gun. I'm going to pause

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now for a short commercial break.
Deborah hay Geisler was born in August of

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nineteen sixty nine in San Antonio,
Texas. There she graduated from John Marshall

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High School, and in December of
nineteen eighty five, she graduated from the

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University of Texas Health Science Center,
where she had studied nursing. Two years

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later, in nineteen eighty seven,
Deborah had a handsome, aspiring doctor,

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Rick Lostro. At this time,
Deborah was a nurse and Rick was a

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lab technician. They both lived in
San Antonio, went to the same school,

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and worked in the same hospital.
As soon as Rick and Deborah met,

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their connection was instant. They shared
the same desire to help others,

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they were both hard workers, and
they could see a future together. So

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less than two years after meeting,
they were engaged and on June sixteenth of

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nineteen eighty nine, twenty six year
old Rick and twenty year old Deborah married

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in Kendall, Texas. At first, their marriage seemed great, you know

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how it goes the honeymoon phase.
Everything feels fresh and new. It's fun

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to say that's my husband or that's
my wife. And starting your family usually

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a wonderful time in married life.
On January twenty first, nineteen ninety four,

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Rick and Deborah had their first son, Aaron. Then two years later,

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on June sixth, nineteen ninety six, they had their second son,

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Kurt. Despite having two little bundles
of joy, or possibly with their added

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stress, Rick and Deborah's marriage was
slowly unraveling. It was like a pressure

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cooker. Each argument and stressor pressed
on their relationship, building and building until

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it became explosive. Around this time, Rick was finishing up medical school and

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Deborah was a practicing nurse. I'm
sure Rick was racking up student loans and

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rarely home, while Deborah was trying
to be the breadwinner and raising two little

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boys. Between their busy schedules,
quick tempers, and growing family, Rick

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and Deborah's relationship went downhill fast.
According to court documents, both Rick and

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Deborah were abusive in their marriage,
verbally and physically. Over the course of

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several years, police officers visited their
marital home over twenty times to help resolve

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various domestic disputes, some of which
were violent. According to Deborah, Rick

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was arrested seven times in total.
The first time law enforcement came into their

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home in nineteen ninety seven, Rick
was charged with assaulting Deborah. He was

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convicted, but his one year's sentence
was deferred. He never served time for

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it. Deborah was arrested several times
as well, though it doesn't appear she

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was ever sentenced. The couple tried
marriage counseling at Deborah's insistence. She wanted

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Rick to work on his angry outbursts, which is interesting since Deborah contributed it

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to their problems too. She once
threatened to kill Rick by injecting him with

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insulin. Even therapy couldn't help this
toxic relationship. Meanwhile, as Rick and

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Deborah were battling it out, their
two sons watched. Aaron and Kurt witnessed

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their parents screaming, fighting, and
everything else. Around the year two thousand,

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when Aaron was six years old,
Rick and Deborah were arguing, and

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as the situation escalated, Deborah said
Rick threatened her with a hammer that he

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chased her around their house holding the
hammer. She said she hid in the

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master bedroom, but Rick found her
pindered to the bed with one arm against

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her throat and the hammer in his
other hand. Deborah said Aaron, who

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had followed his parents into their bedroom, begged her to call the police.

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Eventually, someone did, though we
aren't sure who, and when the officers

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arrived. No one was arrested,
which seems to be the first time the

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police began questioning their conflicting stories.
On January second, two thousand and two,

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another incident occurred. This time it
was at Aaron's eighth birthday party.

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Deborah had arranged for the whole family
to play laser tag and eat Mexican food,

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but she didn't invite Rick, or
at least Rick thought he wasn't invited.

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Either way, he was furious when
he did arrive. He and Deborah

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began a shouting match. Then Rick
picked up at burrito and threw it at

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Deborah. She successfully dodged the burrito, which fell to the floor. As

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they kept fighting, Aaron got a
small broom and dustpan to clean up the

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mess, which made Rick even more
furious. He took the broom and dust

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pan and threw them at Erin.
The police were called again, and this

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time Rick was arrested. Though we
are not sure if he was convicted or

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sentenced, I am assuming there were
more witnesses to this awful scene. In

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total, Eron was present for six
of the seven times that Rick was arrested.

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After the birthday fight, Rick moved
out of his family home. Less

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than a month later, on January
thirtieth, he filed for divorce. In

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court, Deborah argued that she should
have full custody, even though she had

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been arrested herself. You can still
probably empathize and see why she wanted full

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custody. But then she went further. She claimed that Rick had not only

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physic he abused their sons, but
sexually molested them as well. Deborah said

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that on April first, two thousand
and two, she heard ten year old

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Aaron and seven year old Kurt discussing
sexual behavior. When she asked them where

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they heard this, Aaron said someone
had told him to do something sexual.

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After Deborah pressed Aaron with more questions, he admitted that it was his dad,

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Rick, who had told him to
do this sexual act. According to

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Deborah, Aaron then explained to her
in explicit detail of an encounter where his

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father, Rick, sexually molested him
two years prior in a motel room in

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Webster, Texas. Deborah called Child
Protective Services and explained the situation. CPS

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immediately turned the case over to the
Webster Police Department, which opened an investigation.

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During the investigation, CPS representatives,
counselors, and police officer there's questioned

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Aaron. By the end of it
all, the Webster Police Department determined that

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the allegations of sexual assault were not
substantiated. In their eyes, Rick had

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not sexually molested his son, But
Deborah was determined. She reported a different

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occurrence of Rick's supposed sexual abuse toward
Aaron to the Galveston County authorities. This

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time, she claimed the abuse occurred
in their previous family home in Friendswood,

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Texas, But the Galveston County detectives
came to the same conclusion as Webster County.

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Rick had not sexually abused Aaron.
It sounds like she was detective shopping,

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but this didn't stop her either.
She took eron to a psychiatrist to

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talk about the alleged sexual abuse.
Although two law enforcement agencies had determined there

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was no reason to fall charges against
Rick, Aaron maintained his story, and

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his psychiatrist confirmed that Aaron believed his
father had sexually molested him. Whether it

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happened or not, the child did
believe it. But how can that be

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true? How can a child say
sexual abuse happened even describing the situation while

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two investigations found it false. There
are only two possible answers here. Either

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the police departments were wrong or Aaron
was wrong. And there are people on

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both sides of the fence. I'm
going to pause now to hear a word

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from today's sponsor. This episode is
brought to you by Better Help. Whether

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00:17:37.039 --> 00:17:41.880
it's a work life balance or managing
your kid's schedules, not taking care of

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00:17:41.880 --> 00:17:45.160
ourselves is a universal problem. Even
if you pencil in some me time on

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00:17:45.200 --> 00:17:48.559
your calendar, it might be the
one thing on your to do list that

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00:17:48.599 --> 00:17:52.559
you don't check off. Therapy can
give you the tools to find more balance

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00:17:52.640 --> 00:17:57.759
in your life so you can keep
supporting others without leaving yourself behind. Therapy

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00:17:57.839 --> 00:18:03.720
has helped me with all kind of
serious issues, but also seemingly simple everyday

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00:18:03.759 --> 00:18:07.759
life tools like setting personal boundaries so
I am able to keep my work life

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00:18:07.759 --> 00:18:12.559
balance more even, and I'll learn
to make private me time a priority rather

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00:18:12.640 --> 00:18:17.519
than just a notation on a to
do list. If you're thinking of starting

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00:18:17.559 --> 00:18:21.880
therapy, give Better Help a try. It's entirely online, designed to be

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00:18:21.960 --> 00:18:26.440
convenient, flexible, and suited to
your schedule. Find more balance with better

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Help. Visit betterhelp dot com slash
Southern today to get ten percent off your

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00:18:30.480 --> 00:18:41.400
first month. That's better help Help
dot com slash Southern. Child sexual abuse

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00:18:41.599 --> 00:18:45.319
is a sensitive and complex issue to
discuss. When it does happen, it's

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extremely hard to prove. The sexual
predator is usually someone who has a lot

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of access to the child, like
a parent or other close family member or

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babysitter. Because of that, there
are rarely witnesses or physical evidence. All

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you have is the word of a
child against the word of an adult,

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and children are easily manipulated, and
sometimes they lie. It's a natural part

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of being young. The National Children's
Advocacy Center reports that four to seven percent

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of child sex abuse allegations are false. Also, the National Library of Medicine

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found that eighty percent of children are
susceptible to a phenomenon known as false memories.

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It is exactly what it sounds like. Kids are prone to suggestion they

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might remember something just because someone said
it happened. Many of us became familiar

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with this phenomenon with the McMartin preschool
case in the nineteen eighties. False memory

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syndrome happens when an adult uses suggestive
questioning techniques on young children. I'm sure

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many of you are familiar with this
case. It was the longest and most

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expensive criminal case in American history,
which ended without one conviction. The investigation

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began in nineteen eighty four, but
the last trial ended in nineteen ninety.

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The original accusing mother was found to
have been mentally ill and died of alcoholism

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before the trials even ended, and
the social worker who used those methods to

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create false memories was discredited. But
one mother caused mass hysteria at a daycare.

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It was an offshoot of the Satanic
panic with the family that ran the

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daycare. The mcmartins also becoming accused
of Satanic rituals in addition to the sexual

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abuse. In that case, one
mother became convinced her child was sexually assaulted

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because he had painful bowel movements.
I am not digging that far into the

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case because that's not what today's episode
is about. But suffice it to say

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the mother's implanted memory and her son
and the social worker made it worse,

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and then it was like a horrific
set of dominoes that fell with each child

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that was questioned. That case was
in California, or I would like to

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cover it for the legal aspects as
well as the psychological, but it is

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relevant here that one woman, one
mother, could cause that much damage.

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The power that mothers hold over their
child's psyche is incredible when you think about

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it. Many of Rick's friends and
family believed that Deborah implanted memories in Eron,

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that she told Aaron his father molested
him so many times that after a

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while, Aaron just started to believe
it. None of this is to say

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that Aaron was lying or that Deborah
purposely influenced him to have false memories.

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I'm just pointing out that it's impossible
to know what was going on behind closed

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doors, and as the police and
CPS kept declining to prosecute or take any

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action against Rick, we have to
consider other possibilities, particularly parental alienation syndrome

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or PAS. If you haven't heard
of PS, it's when one parent influences

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their child into hating the other parent
for unjustified reasons. There is a loved

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parent and a hated parent. PS
is considered a form of emotional abuse.

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It can impair a child's ability to
form future relationships, lower their self image,

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lower their self respect, cause anxiety
and depression, lower their impulse control,

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and cause behavioral problems. According to
Rick's friends and family, he and

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Deborah were a textbook case of parental
alienation syndrome, with Deborah as the loved

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parent and Rick as the hated one. Rick's friends and family believed that Deborah

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intentionally poisoned their son's mind against Rick, and a police affidavit, Rick's parents

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asserted that Deborah subjected the boys to
a constant barrage of negative, derogatory statements

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about Rick. They thought Deborah was
literally turning Aaron and Kurt against Rick.

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In fact, Rick's friends and family
attributed one hundred percent of their relationship issues

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to Deborah. They insisted she was
the volatile one, she was the angry

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one. Rick was just trying his
absolute best to appease her and raise his

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children. After Deborah reported Rick's alleged
sexual abuse, he was not allowed to

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see his sons for months. It
wasn't until September or October of two thousand

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and two that Rick was legally able
to spend time with his kids again.

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So if Deborah did want to convince
her sons to hate their father, that's

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a lot of mother's son time to
get the job done. Now, obviously

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00:23:59.559 --> 00:24:03.839
Ricks and family loved him, They're
going to see his side of the story.

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But we also cannot ignore that two
separate police departments and cps found the

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sexual allegations untrue, and that when
a judge was presented with all the facts,

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they still decided to grant joint custody
to both Rick and Deborah. Rick's

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00:24:21.240 --> 00:24:25.400
lawyer, Kathleen Collins said, there
isn't a judge I know of who's going

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to approve and grant joint custody in
any situation where the judge believes there is

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credible evidence of sexual abuse. This
is one of those situations where every action

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00:24:37.640 --> 00:24:42.440
can be viewed through two lenses.
Maybe Deborah was a woman desperately trying to

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save her two sons from an abusive
father, or maybe Deborah was, as

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Ricks people believed, on a mission
to smear Rick's name. Frankly, it's

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impossible to know for certain. What
we have are the cold, hard facts,

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and facts don't always leave room for
nuance. After the divorce was filed

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and custody was decided, Rick and
Deborah began dating other people, and the

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boys started their new one week at
mom's house, one week at dad's house

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00:25:12.200 --> 00:25:18.240
custody plan. But this wasn't the
end of Rick and Deborah's feuding. If

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anything, the strain of co parenting
made their relationship worse. In the fall

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00:25:22.680 --> 00:25:26.839
of two thousand and two, Rick
had picked up the boys from an after

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school program, but this was technically
before his sexual molestation investigation was over,

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so Rick wasn't legally allowed to pick
his sons up. As a result,

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Rick faced criminal trespass charges. It's
likely Deborah was the one who reported Rick,

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but we don't know for sure.
I am not sure why he would

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do this, probably knowing it would
hurt his case. This is a very

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00:25:49.960 --> 00:25:55.599
confusing part of this case. Here's
an exact quote from an appeals document.

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00:25:56.519 --> 00:26:00.440
As a result, of the sexual
abuse allegations, Low was denied visitation with

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the children, but in September of
two thousand and two, he regained visitation

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00:26:04.839 --> 00:26:10.640
rights. On October fourth, two
thousand and two, LSTO retrieved both boys

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from after school care in violation of
a protective order. End quote. No

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00:26:15.519 --> 00:26:21.960
further clarification about those dates was given. It is unclear exactly when the sexual

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00:26:22.000 --> 00:26:26.039
abuse investigation was dropped. We just
know that a custody agreement was set by

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00:26:26.039 --> 00:26:30.160
a judge and that same fall,
Rick was allowed to see his children again.

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00:26:30.880 --> 00:26:34.079
So he may not have gotten in
trouble for that incident once the courts

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00:26:34.079 --> 00:26:38.039
sorted it out, and he may
not have realized he was violating the order

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00:26:38.400 --> 00:26:42.400
since he had one custody, why
would he just go pick them up if

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00:26:42.400 --> 00:26:47.240
it was not his week. He
didn't do things like that. He obeyed

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00:26:47.279 --> 00:26:52.119
the court orders every time. But
anyway, that same fall, we do

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00:26:52.319 --> 00:26:56.960
know Debor reported Rick to the police. Apparently Aaron and Kurt never wanted to

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00:26:56.960 --> 00:27:02.079
go to their father's house when it
was his week custody. The two boys

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00:27:02.079 --> 00:27:06.359
were purposefully slow to pack their things
and would often refuse to get into Rick's

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00:27:06.400 --> 00:27:11.440
car. On multiple occasions, Rick
had to call the police and have them

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00:27:11.480 --> 00:27:15.759
help convince the boys to get in
his car. This weekly ritual became a

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00:27:15.920 --> 00:27:22.039
nightmare. Debora stayed in the house
during these altercations. She never helped convince

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00:27:22.079 --> 00:27:26.039
the boys to go with their father, and when Deborah did come out of

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00:27:26.039 --> 00:27:30.079
the house, she and Rick would
always end up fighting. It's difficult,

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00:27:30.400 --> 00:27:34.440
at least to me, to understand
Deborah's actions. At this point, the

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00:27:34.559 --> 00:27:41.359
court had spoken why not make her
son's lives less miserable and accept a situation

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00:27:41.880 --> 00:27:45.559
helped them to accept it. Instead, she seemed determined to make it worse.

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Maybe she thought all this drama from
the boy's refusal would eventually help in

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00:27:51.359 --> 00:27:56.400
court, and it was major drama. One time, Aaron and Kurt were

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00:27:56.440 --> 00:28:00.599
so desperate to stay at their mother's
house that they jumped out of their father's

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00:28:00.680 --> 00:28:07.000
moving car. Luckily, Rick wasn't
going very fast, so nobody was hurt.

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00:28:07.039 --> 00:28:11.319
On another occasion, Aaron sprayed his
father with a garden hose as he

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sat in the car waiting. At
least once, Rick gave up and left

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00:28:15.720 --> 00:28:22.000
without his sons, foregoing the custody
agreement for that week, Which does give

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00:28:22.000 --> 00:28:26.079
me greater empathy for Rick. If
his visits were causing all this stress and

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00:28:26.200 --> 00:28:29.519
drama, then it wasn't good for
his sons, and he knew that,

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00:28:30.200 --> 00:28:37.039
but evidently he eventually felt like enough
was enough. So on Friday November fourteenth,

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00:28:37.079 --> 00:28:40.440
two thousand and two, when Aaron
didn't want to go with his father,

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00:28:41.039 --> 00:28:45.400
Rick grabbed his son's arm and forced
him into the vehicle. On the

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00:28:45.440 --> 00:28:48.720
way to Rick's house, Aaron complained
that he didn't want to be there.

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In response, Rick allegedly hit him. After they got home and went inside,

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Aaron said Rick hit him again,
but this time, he said the

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00:28:59.079 --> 00:29:02.519
hit was much harder. Aaron said
he fell and hid his head on the

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00:29:02.559 --> 00:29:06.839
sofa's arm rest. As soon as
Aaron told his mom about this, she

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00:29:06.960 --> 00:29:11.000
called the police, but no charges
were filed. And you have to wonder

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00:29:11.039 --> 00:29:15.680
why no charges were filed. The
descriptions I just gave you came from Aaron,

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not Rick. We can't know the
real truth. I'm sure Rick was

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00:29:21.559 --> 00:29:25.920
exasperated and couldn't help but be angry, but with all else going on,

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00:29:26.400 --> 00:29:32.279
it's difficult to believe Rick would do
anything to jeopardize his custody rights. But

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00:29:32.400 --> 00:29:37.519
Aaron did start seeing a psychologist after
this. Four days after that incident,

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00:29:37.759 --> 00:29:41.440
when Rick was not charged, on
November eighteenth, Deborah went to Rick's new

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00:29:41.480 --> 00:29:48.759
girlfriend's place of employment. Her name
was Katie. Deborah told Katie's co workers

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00:29:48.839 --> 00:29:52.079
that Rick was a child molester,
and she also told Katie to stay away

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00:29:52.079 --> 00:29:56.000
from her two sons. When Katie
left work to go home that day,

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00:29:56.359 --> 00:30:00.880
she saw Deborah watching her from her
car. And Deborah wasn't alone. She

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00:30:02.000 --> 00:30:06.519
had Aaron and Kurt in the car
with her. Okay, are we starting

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00:30:06.519 --> 00:30:11.319
to see a pattern, a very
damaging and hateful pattern, and it gets

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00:30:11.319 --> 00:30:15.640
worse. Nervous, Katie got in
her car and drove away, only for

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00:30:15.720 --> 00:30:21.119
Deborah to follow her. Deborah drove
recklessly to keep up with Katie. She

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00:30:21.279 --> 00:30:26.079
ran multiple red lights and tailgated Katie. The only time Deborah finally stopped following

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00:30:26.119 --> 00:30:33.599
her was when Katy purposefully drove past
a police station. Afterward, Katie reported

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00:30:33.640 --> 00:30:37.599
Deborah to the authorities, and Deborah
was charged with neglectful supervision of her children.

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See now these charges were somehow found
credible. It speaks to what trained

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00:30:44.480 --> 00:30:49.079
officers were seeing when questioning the boys. I'm going to pause now for a

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00:30:49.119 --> 00:30:59.119
short commercial break. A month later, on December nineteenth, Deborah told the

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00:30:59.119 --> 00:31:03.799
police that her had witnessed Rick hid
his new girlfriend, Katie Strange, that

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00:31:03.920 --> 00:31:07.599
she would care about Katie, but
honestly, it looks like she was trying

358
00:31:07.640 --> 00:31:14.160
anything to make Rick appear to be
abusive. When the detectives interviewed both Aaron

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00:31:14.200 --> 00:31:18.599
and his little brother Kurt, Aaron
confirmed that he saw the abuse happen.

360
00:31:18.400 --> 00:31:23.200
Aaron said they were in an argument
about unwashed dishes when Rick struck Katie.

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00:31:23.880 --> 00:31:29.920
As Aaron spoke with police officers,
Deborah interrupted, She said, what I'm

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00:31:29.960 --> 00:31:34.079
really concerned about is that Rick spanked
my sons. At this, the officers

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00:31:34.119 --> 00:31:38.400
looked to Aaron. They asked if
his father had spanked him, which Aaron

364
00:31:38.440 --> 00:31:44.480
confirmed. Aaron explained that Rick had
used his belt to whip him three times

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00:31:44.759 --> 00:31:48.960
when he had refused to go to
bed. Then Deborah added that Rick had

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00:31:48.960 --> 00:31:53.200
threatened to kill the boys. Aaron
and Kurt did not initially report this detail,

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00:31:53.720 --> 00:31:57.680
but when the police asked if Rick
had said those things, the boys

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00:31:57.759 --> 00:32:02.000
looked at their mother, then looked
at the officers and said yes. The

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00:32:02.079 --> 00:32:07.640
officers referred the incident to their detective
division for further investigation. But nothing came

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00:32:07.680 --> 00:32:13.000
of it. From their description and
the fact that Rick was not charged,

371
00:32:13.400 --> 00:32:16.640
it sounds like they thought maybe the
boys were being coached. I want to

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00:32:16.680 --> 00:32:21.200
point out that it doesn't matter whether
or not you agree with corporal punishment.

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00:32:21.920 --> 00:32:27.039
It's a personal decision. The point
here is whether or not it's even true.

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00:32:27.839 --> 00:32:30.680
That spring. On April eighth,
two thousand and three, Aaron allegedly

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00:32:30.759 --> 00:32:35.880
told his mom that Rick had beaten
him again. Two days before, Aaron

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was at his dad's house and Rick
had wanted him to take a bath,

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00:32:38.519 --> 00:32:45.000
but Aaron refused, so Rick allegedly
chased his son into the bathroom while wielding

378
00:32:45.039 --> 00:32:50.119
his belt, and then forcibly removed
Aaron's shorts and beat him across his backside

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00:32:50.119 --> 00:32:54.960
with the belt. Next, Rick
allegedly wrangled Aaron into the bath. While

380
00:32:54.960 --> 00:32:59.920
relaying the story to his mom,
Aaron showed her a bruise on his elbow.

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00:33:00.839 --> 00:33:05.240
Deborah called the police. Aaron told
the investigators that he was afraid to

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00:33:05.240 --> 00:33:08.160
take a bath at his father's house
because Rick had molested him in the past.

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00:33:09.319 --> 00:33:14.680
Later that month, on April twenty
fourth, Peace officers responded to another

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00:33:14.759 --> 00:33:19.319
call from Deborah. She explained to
them that while Aaron was at his father's

385
00:33:19.400 --> 00:33:22.799
house the day before, Rick had
hit him in the face. According to

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00:33:22.839 --> 00:33:25.559
Aaron, he had asked his dad
if he could play a video game.

387
00:33:27.160 --> 00:33:31.160
When his dad said no, he
asked again and again. After the fourth

388
00:33:31.160 --> 00:33:37.319
time Aaron asked, Aaron said,
Rick became frustrated and hit him. But

389
00:33:37.400 --> 00:33:40.960
the investigating officers did not see any
marks on Aaron's face, and it's clear

390
00:33:42.039 --> 00:33:46.400
that they had lost trust in Deborah. One officer wrote in his official report,

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00:33:46.880 --> 00:33:52.119
due to my past experiences with Missus
Geisler, I did not see any

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00:33:52.160 --> 00:33:55.240
reasons to pursue the issue of assault
on the nine year old boy. I

393
00:33:55.359 --> 00:34:00.000
told Missus Geysler that the child's father
had their right to discipline child, as

394
00:34:00.039 --> 00:34:05.400
long as it was not excessive.
On May twenty first, two thousand and

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00:34:05.480 --> 00:34:10.039
three, Rick and Deborah were officially
divorced, over a year had passed since

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00:34:10.079 --> 00:34:15.280
the initial filing. The next month, in June, Deborah married her second

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00:34:15.360 --> 00:34:22.480
husband, a man named Matthew Swanson. Unfortunately, Deborah and Matthew's relationship was

398
00:34:22.559 --> 00:34:29.440
also abusive. Not long after their
marriage, Matthew was arrested for assaulting Deborah.

399
00:34:30.039 --> 00:34:35.440
Soon after, Deborah filed for a
restraining order against Matthew. As I

400
00:34:35.480 --> 00:34:38.679
read over this case, my heart
ached for Aaron and Kurt. They were

401
00:34:38.760 --> 00:34:45.199
dealing with a lot their parents,
messy divorce, a complicated custody situation,

402
00:34:45.800 --> 00:34:50.800
two parents dead set against each other, and now their mom's new abusive husband.

403
00:34:52.280 --> 00:34:55.119
On May fourteenth, two thousand and
four, a year after the divorce,

404
00:34:55.719 --> 00:35:01.519
Deborah filed get another police report.
This time she accused Rick's girlfriend Katie,

405
00:35:01.880 --> 00:35:07.679
of abusing her youngest son, Kurt. In the police report, an

406
00:35:07.719 --> 00:35:12.039
officer wrote the following, there is
concern that Aaron and Kurt are still at

407
00:35:12.119 --> 00:35:19.199
risk for physical abuse, especially because
Lostro has a condition called intermittent explosive disorder.

408
00:35:20.280 --> 00:35:23.559
This causes him to have outbursts of
anger, and Lostro is not taking

409
00:35:23.599 --> 00:35:30.559
his medication. To my knowledge,
there is no other public information available regarding

410
00:35:30.679 --> 00:35:35.480
Rick's mental health diagnosis. I have
no idea if that's even true, or

411
00:35:35.519 --> 00:35:38.480
if it's just something Deborah said to
the police. But if he did have

412
00:35:38.599 --> 00:35:43.800
this disorder, it's unclear how much
it affected his behavior towards his sons,

413
00:35:44.559 --> 00:35:47.840
and you would think it would be
an issue with custody. Evidently it was

414
00:35:47.960 --> 00:35:53.880
not, as Rick was awarded equal
custody. But anyway, it also seems

415
00:35:53.920 --> 00:36:00.239
like the accusation that Katie abused Kurt
was unfounded. At the very least,

416
00:36:00.320 --> 00:36:05.239
Katie wasn't charged. At what point
do you think that Deborah became the boy

417
00:36:05.280 --> 00:36:09.920
who cried wolf? At what point
can someone be charged with filing false reports?

418
00:36:09.920 --> 00:36:15.440
She was wasting precious resources? Do
you have any idea how many abused

419
00:36:15.519 --> 00:36:20.800
children there are out there who need
these resources? While Rick and Deborah were

420
00:36:20.920 --> 00:36:24.480
charged with abusing each other, Rick
was never charged with abusing his sons.

421
00:36:25.239 --> 00:36:30.039
The accusations did not appear to be
legitimate to a number of different officers,

422
00:36:30.119 --> 00:36:37.159
detectives, and CPS officials that summer. In July of two thousand and four,

423
00:36:37.320 --> 00:36:42.880
Aaron began seeing a psychiatrist at the
Texas Children's Hospital. Her name was

424
00:36:42.920 --> 00:36:47.400
doctor Diane Treadwell Dearing. She determined
that Aaron showed some signs of depression,

425
00:36:47.920 --> 00:36:53.239
so she prescribed him prozach. They
began with a daily ten milligram dosage and

426
00:36:53.360 --> 00:37:00.079
increased it to twenty milligrams over time. If you aren't familiar, prozac as

427
00:37:00.119 --> 00:37:07.320
an antidepressant medication, sometimes known as
fluoxetine. It's an SSRII which stands for

428
00:37:07.440 --> 00:37:13.840
selective serotonin reuptake inhibitor. It increases
the amount of serotonin in the brain,

429
00:37:14.400 --> 00:37:19.360
which can help people feel happier,
and just the year before, it had

430
00:37:19.360 --> 00:37:23.800
been approved by the FDA as a
treatment for children and adolescence. As doctor

431
00:37:23.880 --> 00:37:30.519
Daring continued to increase Eron's prozac prescription, his mother, Deborah became worried.

432
00:37:30.119 --> 00:37:35.199
She was concerned that when Aaron spent
a week with his father, he wouldn't

433
00:37:35.239 --> 00:37:40.519
take the prozach medication regularly. Doctor
Darring understood Deborah's concern. She had tried

434
00:37:40.559 --> 00:37:45.440
to call Rick to discuss Aaron's new
medications, but Rick never picked up or

435
00:37:45.480 --> 00:37:52.360
returned her calls. I wonder if
he disagreed with medicating his son, but

436
00:37:52.480 --> 00:37:55.320
you would think he would want to
express that to doctor Dearing. But he

437
00:37:55.400 --> 00:38:00.039
was an incredibly busy man, and
maybe he just saw this yet another Deborah

438
00:38:00.119 --> 00:38:05.519
issue. It's hard to say.
I only wonder because Rick was a doctor

439
00:38:05.639 --> 00:38:12.360
himself. So Doctor Darring prescribed Aaron
a ninety milligram dose of prozac and a

440
00:38:12.400 --> 00:38:15.840
time release capsule. That way,
Aaron would only have to take the pill

441
00:38:15.960 --> 00:38:21.039
once a week, eliminating the fear
that Aaron wouldn't stay on his meds while

442
00:38:21.039 --> 00:38:24.440
at his dad's house. One pill
is much easier to keep track of than

443
00:38:24.559 --> 00:38:30.760
seven. Even though Aaron was being
treated for depression, he appeared to be

444
00:38:30.800 --> 00:38:37.280
doing okay. He hadn't displayed any
concerning behaviors. Aaron's lawyer later said,

445
00:38:37.760 --> 00:38:40.280
he's really a pretty well adjusted young
man for what he's been through with the

446
00:38:40.320 --> 00:38:45.239
divorce and the other things in his
life. On Friday, August twenty seventh,

447
00:38:45.239 --> 00:38:51.679
two thousand and four, Aaron and
Kurt visited a psychologist named doctor Charles

448
00:38:51.679 --> 00:38:57.800
Patrick Brady. They went to doctor
Brady at doctor Darring's recommendation. To prepare

449
00:38:57.840 --> 00:39:01.159
for the appointment with doctor Brady,
Debrah asked her sons to write down all

450
00:39:01.159 --> 00:39:06.199
the things they wanted to talk about. Aaron wrote a list of topics,

451
00:39:06.239 --> 00:39:09.280
which I will read for you now. I've edited a little for readability,

452
00:39:09.639 --> 00:39:14.679
but it's almost exactly what Aaron wrote. I also want to give you a

453
00:39:14.719 --> 00:39:17.920
trigger warning because this can be very
upsetting, and I'm going to try not

454
00:39:19.000 --> 00:39:23.199
to stumble through it because of the
stilted wording. Number One, I'm angry

455
00:39:23.280 --> 00:39:27.400
because I have to go live at
my dad's. It upsets me a lot

456
00:39:27.400 --> 00:39:30.039
to stay at Rick's. Number two. Rick yells and screams at us a

457
00:39:30.039 --> 00:39:36.079
lot. Number three. Katie calls
us names like turd brats, pigs,

458
00:39:36.360 --> 00:39:39.800
nerds. There's a lot of yelling
at Rick's house. Number four. Rick

459
00:39:39.920 --> 00:39:45.440
hits us, swing his fists at
our head, whips us with belts.

460
00:39:45.760 --> 00:39:49.159
He's hit me and knocked me down. He hits me because he is mad.

461
00:39:49.440 --> 00:39:52.440
He gives us bruises and cuts.
Number five. He yells at Katie

462
00:39:52.519 --> 00:39:58.159
using bad words. He has also
hit her and Katie has hit him sometimes.

463
00:39:58.920 --> 00:40:01.800
He also yells at her about smoking. Number six. When Rick comes

464
00:40:01.800 --> 00:40:05.719
to pick us up at Mom's house, he yells and screams at us.

465
00:40:06.000 --> 00:40:09.079
He grabs Kurt, hurting him,
and forces Kurt into his car. I

466
00:40:09.199 --> 00:40:15.119
try to protect Kurt. Number seven. Rick yells and screams bad words at

467
00:40:15.159 --> 00:40:17.800
other drivers. Rick swerves the car. He slams on the brakes in front

468
00:40:17.800 --> 00:40:22.000
of other drivers to make them mad
or because he is mad. He also

469
00:40:22.079 --> 00:40:27.400
does bad hand movements to other drivers
and other people. Number eight. One

470
00:40:27.440 --> 00:40:30.840
time Katie shoved me out the back
door at night and locked me out of

471
00:40:30.880 --> 00:40:32.760
the house. Kurt was the one
who lent me back in the house,

472
00:40:34.119 --> 00:40:37.239
she broke glass. Katie whips Kurt
with a belt and I cannot stop her

473
00:40:37.280 --> 00:40:42.960
from hurting him. Number nine.
Rick has pictures of naked women on his

474
00:40:43.000 --> 00:40:46.639
computer that pop up. Then Rick
has tapes of naked women. Number ten.

475
00:40:47.079 --> 00:40:50.920
I think Rick is doing bad things
to Kurt like he did to me

476
00:40:51.679 --> 00:40:54.800
when I come home from school.
Sometimes Rick has Kurt in Rick's bed and

477
00:40:54.920 --> 00:41:00.639
Rick is in his underwear. Kurt
is quiet and sad. Rick is acting

478
00:41:00.760 --> 00:41:04.480
strange. Kurt has told me what
Rick has done, and I cannot protect

479
00:41:04.559 --> 00:41:07.360
Kurt from this happening. No one
could protect me when this was happening.

480
00:41:07.960 --> 00:41:12.800
Number eleven. Kurt and I have
both been sick and Rick does not take

481
00:41:12.880 --> 00:41:15.840
us to see our doctor. I
had a fever for four days and Rick

482
00:41:15.920 --> 00:41:20.480
did not help me. Kurt had
a fever, a skin infection, sore

483
00:41:20.559 --> 00:41:23.639
throat, and Rick did not take
us to the doctors. Number twelve.

484
00:41:23.760 --> 00:41:28.440
I'm afraid of Rick and living at
Rick's house. I wish I could make

485
00:41:28.480 --> 00:41:31.880
things better and protect Kurt. I
want to live at my mom's house so

486
00:41:32.239 --> 00:41:37.840
things don't continue to hurt Kurt and
me. Katie carried a machete around Rick's

487
00:41:37.840 --> 00:41:40.440
house and said I'm going to rip
up your dad. I don't feel safe

488
00:41:40.440 --> 00:41:45.079
at Rick's house because he is angry
a lot and is doing bad things.

489
00:41:45.480 --> 00:41:52.119
End quote. Did Deborah coach Aaron
as he wrote this list, and if

490
00:41:52.159 --> 00:41:58.440
so, was her guidance helpful or
manipulative? It's unclear. Remember the list

491
00:41:58.519 --> 00:42:04.480
was her idea in the first place, not the psychologists. It's interesting that

492
00:42:04.519 --> 00:42:07.960
there isn't one thing about being at
his mother's house on this list. If

493
00:42:08.000 --> 00:42:13.800
it is an honest list without coaching, you can see how that's a problem.

494
00:42:13.920 --> 00:42:17.679
His mother was in an abusive marriage. She was constantly causing drama.

495
00:42:17.760 --> 00:42:22.519
How could she not make the list
except she pretty much made the list herself.

496
00:42:23.400 --> 00:42:27.880
Think about number eleven when he says
Rick won't take them to the doctor

497
00:42:27.880 --> 00:42:31.360
when they are sick. Rick was
a doctor. Some of this just doesn't

498
00:42:31.400 --> 00:42:36.599
make sense, But this is the
list Aaron and Deborah said he wrote.

499
00:42:37.239 --> 00:42:40.800
So with this list in hand,
Aaron went to meet with the psychologist,

500
00:42:42.000 --> 00:42:47.239
doctor Brady. Afterwards, doctor Brady
agreed that Aaron believed he had been sexually

501
00:42:47.280 --> 00:42:52.920
assaulted by his father, which is
different than saying he agreed that Aaron was

502
00:42:52.159 --> 00:42:58.119
sexually assaulted by his father, but
more than that, Doctor Brady could tell

503
00:42:58.159 --> 00:43:01.480
that Aaron thought that Rick was going
to actually assault his little brother Kurt too.

504
00:43:02.239 --> 00:43:07.159
After the session, doctor Brady advised
Deborah to call CPS. I'm sure

505
00:43:07.199 --> 00:43:13.119
this was an abundance of caution,
and also to legally let CPS sort it

506
00:43:13.119 --> 00:43:17.400
out. There was little the psychologist
could do legally about the case except give

507
00:43:17.440 --> 00:43:22.840
a statement. He actually could report
the abuse himself if he believe it happened,

508
00:43:23.320 --> 00:43:27.760
and the fact that he passed it
off to CPS is somewhat telling to

509
00:43:27.800 --> 00:43:32.960
me. Doctors have a legal duty
to report abuse. As Deborah drove her

510
00:43:32.960 --> 00:43:37.760
son's home, she asked Kurt if
his father had assaulted him. Kurt said

511
00:43:37.800 --> 00:43:44.599
no. This made Aaron extremely angry
and agitated, which was strange for Aaron.

512
00:43:45.039 --> 00:43:50.719
He was usually a calm boy.
Then Deborah ran out of gas.

513
00:43:50.719 --> 00:43:52.800
She and the boys had to wait
several hours for a tow truck to give

514
00:43:52.800 --> 00:43:58.079
them a ride to a gas station. Once they finally arrived home, there

515
00:43:58.159 --> 00:44:01.559
was no time for snacks were unwinding. The boys had to pack for their

516
00:44:01.639 --> 00:44:07.360
dad's house right away. It was
a stressful situation. Try getting two cranky

517
00:44:07.440 --> 00:44:13.079
kids under the age of ten out
of the house even without underlying issues,

518
00:44:13.559 --> 00:44:20.320
and this was a combustible situation already. Sometime in between getting towed and packing

519
00:44:20.320 --> 00:44:24.280
for Rick's house, Debora handed Aaron
his once a week dose of prozac and

520
00:44:24.400 --> 00:44:29.639
he took it. This was only
the second time he had ever taken the

521
00:44:29.760 --> 00:44:34.280
ninety milligram pill, but Aaron wasn't
a fan. He said the pill made

522
00:44:34.320 --> 00:44:38.519
him feel quote a little on the
side of angry. As the two boys

523
00:44:38.559 --> 00:44:43.719
were getting ready to go to Rick's
house, Deborah called CPS, just like

524
00:44:43.760 --> 00:44:49.679
the psychologist recommended. During that call, Rick then called Deborah he had just

525
00:44:49.800 --> 00:44:52.800
driven into the driveway and was letting
her know he was ready for the kids.

526
00:44:53.480 --> 00:44:59.800
At this point, Deborah and Rick
began fighting, and that's when Aaron

527
00:45:00.079 --> 00:45:05.480
went into his mother's bedroom closet,
grabbed her forty five caliber semi automatic pistol,

528
00:45:06.039 --> 00:45:09.800
loaded it, and put it in
his backpack. Kurt recalled seeing Aaron

529
00:45:09.920 --> 00:45:15.159
leave the house with his backpack slung
around his shoulders. Then Kurt heard several

530
00:45:15.199 --> 00:45:21.599
loud pops and Aaron returned inside with
a gun in his hand. Deborah and

531
00:45:21.719 --> 00:45:25.679
Kurt looked at Aaron in shock,
and Aaron, using his non gun handmade

532
00:45:25.920 --> 00:45:31.440
the okay hand signal. Deborah asked
Aaron, what did you do, and

533
00:45:31.559 --> 00:45:38.159
Aaron replied, I shot him.
I'm going to pause now for a final

534
00:45:38.199 --> 00:45:45.039
commercial break. Debrah then realized what
had happened, and she took the gun

535
00:45:45.079 --> 00:45:50.360
away from Aaron. Next, she
called nine one one and ran outside to

536
00:45:50.440 --> 00:45:54.079
check on Rick. She told the
nine one one dispatcher that Rick was alive,

537
00:45:54.360 --> 00:46:00.400
but barely. His breathing was shallow
and labored. When the EMT arrived

538
00:46:00.440 --> 00:46:04.400
on the scene, they tried to
treat Rick, but at that point he

539
00:46:04.519 --> 00:46:07.719
was gone. He had been shot
five times in the back and once in

540
00:46:07.719 --> 00:46:13.920
the left arm. When the police
arrived, they separated Aaron from his mother

541
00:46:14.000 --> 00:46:17.800
and little brother. They placed bags
on his hands to help preserve evidence,

542
00:46:19.280 --> 00:46:22.760
and they immediately questioned Deborah. How
did this little boy get a hold of

543
00:46:22.760 --> 00:46:28.519
her gun? Deborah said she didn't
know. She claimed that her pistol was

544
00:46:28.599 --> 00:46:35.119
always locked away and always unloaded,
but that wasn't true. Aaron did load

545
00:46:35.199 --> 00:46:38.119
the gun himself, but it wasn't
an a locked case, just as zipped

546
00:46:38.159 --> 00:46:44.079
one tucked in the back of Deborah's
closet. As the detectives questioned Aaron,

547
00:46:44.400 --> 00:46:49.480
Aaron explained that Ric abused him.
Aaron also said that he worried his father's

548
00:46:49.519 --> 00:46:54.000
sexually molested Kurt and that bothered him
a lot. Aaron described the abuse the

549
00:46:54.039 --> 00:47:00.039
same way he had to CPS psychologists
and other police officers. He recounted that

550
00:47:00.159 --> 00:47:05.559
Rick had molested him a few years
ago in a motel, and Aaron said

551
00:47:05.599 --> 00:47:09.199
that his father was quick to beat
him when he was mad. The detectives

552
00:47:09.239 --> 00:47:15.639
asked Aaron what happened after Rick got
here today, and Aaron whispered, I

553
00:47:15.719 --> 00:47:17.679
was mad that I had to go
with him, so I shot him.

554
00:47:19.599 --> 00:47:23.360
Officers asked Aaron if he was afraid
of Rick, and Aaron responded, yes,

555
00:47:23.599 --> 00:47:27.920
Oh yeah, I was scared of
him when he'd get angry. I

556
00:47:28.039 --> 00:47:30.719
was real scared that he would turn
around and just go crazy on us,

557
00:47:30.840 --> 00:47:36.239
hit us, and abuse us.
When asked why his father came to get

558
00:47:36.320 --> 00:47:39.440
him every week, Aaron said,
I don't know, I don't I just

559
00:47:39.480 --> 00:47:43.920
think he thinks that we're like a
prize to him, not as loved,

560
00:47:44.079 --> 00:47:47.679
but like as if he were playing
a game. I'm sorry, that's not

561
00:47:47.800 --> 00:47:52.400
how children talk. That's way too
sophisticated for a fifth grader. He was

562
00:47:52.440 --> 00:47:57.880
saying this after having shot his father, but it sounds parroted from something Deborah

563
00:47:57.920 --> 00:48:01.920
would say. After the investor stigators
were done questioning Aaron, they took him

564
00:48:01.920 --> 00:48:07.119
into police custody. He spent several
weeks at the Harris County Juvenile Detention Center's

565
00:48:07.239 --> 00:48:14.400
psychiatric facility. During this time,
state prosecutors were deciding whether or not to

566
00:48:14.480 --> 00:48:17.920
charge Aaron with murder. I've covered
a lot of cases, and in every

567
00:48:19.000 --> 00:48:22.920
single one, I cannot fathom the
grief that a victim's family feels. It

568
00:48:23.119 --> 00:48:29.960
is always unimaginable, but this case
hits much harder. There's a child who

569
00:48:30.000 --> 00:48:35.679
made a mistake, a forever mistake. If you take anything away from this

570
00:48:35.760 --> 00:48:40.880
case today, please make sure your
guns are locked away securely. At first,

571
00:48:42.039 --> 00:48:45.280
Debora wouldn't speak to the local newspapers, but after a time she did.

572
00:48:46.039 --> 00:48:50.440
When reporters asked Debora why Eron would
kill Rick, she said that he

573
00:48:50.559 --> 00:48:53.920
was very angry with his father,
and she explained to them how neither of

574
00:48:53.920 --> 00:49:00.000
the boys wanted to spend time with
Rick. My son is not a homicidal

575
00:49:00.119 --> 00:49:04.559
maniac, Deborah told the Houston Chronicle. I knew my son was angry with

576
00:49:04.599 --> 00:49:07.760
his father, but I never thought
my son would see this as a way

577
00:49:07.800 --> 00:49:13.679
to handle the hopeless situation he thought
he was in. Neighbors supported Deborah's claim

578
00:49:14.199 --> 00:49:16.320
they saw how much of a struggle
it was whenever Rick arrived to pick up

579
00:49:16.360 --> 00:49:21.679
the boys. Okay, first of
all, thinks nosy neighbors who don't really

580
00:49:21.679 --> 00:49:24.840
know any of these people. Second
of all, did Deborah think she was

581
00:49:24.880 --> 00:49:30.119
doing her son any favors by saying
these things to reporters? That's unconscionable to

582
00:49:30.199 --> 00:49:34.880
me. You don't talk to the
press when your ten year old son could

583
00:49:34.880 --> 00:49:39.360
be charged with murder full stop.
And many people, including Rick's lawyer,

584
00:49:39.519 --> 00:49:45.679
thought the whole situation was suspicious.
Rick's divorced lawyer, Kathleen Collins, said,

585
00:49:45.079 --> 00:49:50.480
I don't think the child pulled the
trigger by himself. The police found

586
00:49:50.480 --> 00:49:53.880
gunpowder on both of Aaron's hands and
on Deborah's right hand, and when they

587
00:49:53.920 --> 00:50:00.119
asked Deborah if she killed Rick early
on, she didn't immediately respond. After

588
00:50:00.280 --> 00:50:06.000
some time passed, Debora used her
Fifth Amendment privilege to remain silent. Later

589
00:50:06.000 --> 00:50:08.679
in court, Debora would clarify that
no, she did not kill Rick.

590
00:50:09.360 --> 00:50:15.840
After that, the matter was dropped. The state didn't pursue Deborah's culpability any

591
00:50:15.880 --> 00:50:20.119
further. She could have gotten the
gunpowder residue on her right hand when she

592
00:50:20.199 --> 00:50:23.079
just took the fired weapon away from
her son. But I really don't like

593
00:50:23.199 --> 00:50:27.800
that Fifth Amendment business. If she
didn't do it, why wouldn't she be

594
00:50:27.880 --> 00:50:32.760
adamant to the police. Rick's parents, Richard and Joanne Greene, were devastated

595
00:50:34.400 --> 00:50:38.000
their son was dead at the hands
of their grandson. It was unimaginable.

596
00:50:38.639 --> 00:50:44.400
They wanted to know if something else
was going on. But unlike Rick's friends,

597
00:50:44.760 --> 00:50:49.440
they didn't just pin Aaron's unexpected violence
on his mother, Deborah. They

598
00:50:49.480 --> 00:50:55.079
attributed Aaron's actions to his new ninety
milligram prozac medication. If you'll recall,

599
00:50:55.519 --> 00:51:00.719
Aaron did say it made him feel
a little angry. So Richard and Joanne

600
00:51:00.719 --> 00:51:07.280
sued the makers of Prozak, known
as Eli Lillian Company. Their lawsuit claimed

601
00:51:07.599 --> 00:51:14.239
that Prozak's negative side effects had created
a mental state in which Aaron suffered emotional

602
00:51:14.280 --> 00:51:20.639
instability, agitation, depersonalization, hostility, and mania, leading to violence on

603
00:51:20.679 --> 00:51:25.159
the day that his father was killed. Eli In Company's public response was that

604
00:51:25.199 --> 00:51:30.800
they did not promote prozac for pediatric
patients. Sure, the medication had been

605
00:51:30.800 --> 00:51:37.159
approved by the FDA for children aged
eight or older with depression, but they

606
00:51:37.199 --> 00:51:43.159
were not marketing it for that demographic. Most experts do not believe prozac causes

607
00:51:43.239 --> 00:51:49.320
violence. Rather, people who were
taking Prozac for anxiety or depression might already

608
00:51:49.360 --> 00:51:54.440
be prone to violence due to their
own pre existing emotional turmoil. Many depression

609
00:51:54.480 --> 00:52:00.199
medications list the same possible side effects. It is unclear if Richard and joe

610
00:52:00.239 --> 00:52:06.880
Anne won or lost their lawsuit against
Prozac, based on the lack of documents

611
00:52:06.920 --> 00:52:12.159
available. The parties probably reached a
settlement and the Greens signed a non disclosure

612
00:52:12.199 --> 00:52:17.280
agreement. Another sad note to this
case is after this at least one paper

613
00:52:17.280 --> 00:52:23.960
that I saw, the New York
Post called Aaron Prozac boy. Richard and

614
00:52:24.039 --> 00:52:29.760
joe Anne Green also sued Deborah and
her new husband, Matthew. They accused

615
00:52:29.760 --> 00:52:36.400
the couple of negligence. There was
speculation that perhaps Deborah had accidentally given Aaron

616
00:52:36.480 --> 00:52:40.960
two of the ninety milligram time released
Prozac capsules instead of the prescribed one.

617
00:52:42.679 --> 00:52:46.400
Remember that day was frantic. The
boys had a therapy appointment, The car

618
00:52:46.440 --> 00:52:50.880
had run out of gas and everyone
had to rush to pack for Dad's house.

619
00:52:51.400 --> 00:52:54.519
It would have been a stressful few
hours. It wasn't unreasonable to wonder

620
00:52:54.559 --> 00:53:00.519
if Deborah had misremembered how many pills
she had given her son, but this

621
00:53:00.639 --> 00:53:05.840
was never confirmed. Still, Rick's
parents lawsuit claimed that Deborah, as a

622
00:53:05.960 --> 00:53:10.119
nurse, had a duty to administer
the medication only as prescribed and to monitor

623
00:53:10.159 --> 00:53:15.840
her son for the adverse reactions or
side effects. And the lawsuit also claimed

624
00:53:15.920 --> 00:53:22.519
that Deborah and Matthew didn't properly secure
their gun or ammunition, which is absolutely

625
00:53:22.559 --> 00:53:28.440
true. Additionally, Richard and Joanne
fought for temporary custody of Aaron and Kurt.

626
00:53:29.119 --> 00:53:31.559
Not only did the grandparents want to
remove the boys from the influence of

627
00:53:31.559 --> 00:53:37.079
their mother for their emotional health,
they were concerned that Deborah had inadvertently caused

628
00:53:37.159 --> 00:53:43.840
Rick's death. When Deborah purchased the
gun that killed Rick, she had brought

629
00:53:43.840 --> 00:53:47.440
both of her young sons with her. They had watched the salesperson explain how

630
00:53:47.480 --> 00:53:52.800
to unload it, reload it,
and shoot it. We don't know how

631
00:53:52.840 --> 00:53:57.480
young the boys were when this purchase
took place, but logically Eron must have

632
00:53:57.519 --> 00:54:00.199
been no older than ten and Kurt
must have and no older than seven.

633
00:54:01.360 --> 00:54:06.519
The courts agreed with Rick's parents Aaron
and Kurt should be in their custody,

634
00:54:06.760 --> 00:54:09.920
not Deborah's. But when it came
time to actually give Kurt to their paternal

635
00:54:09.920 --> 00:54:16.639
grandparents, nobody could find him.
Deborah had taken Kurt and disappeared, completely

636
00:54:16.679 --> 00:54:22.039
ignoring the court's order to deliver her
sons to their grandparents. At this time,

637
00:54:22.119 --> 00:54:28.199
Aaron was still in the States custody. Deborah's attorney, Chris Trutiko,

638
00:54:28.800 --> 00:54:31.840
claimed to have no clue where Deborah
and Kurt had gone. He said,

639
00:54:31.920 --> 00:54:36.800
quote, there is no basis to
show Miss Geisler is an unfant mother.

640
00:54:37.000 --> 00:54:42.000
There is every belief those children belong
with her, No, sir, only

641
00:54:42.039 --> 00:54:45.159
your belief at this point, and
so what anyway, As her lawyer,

642
00:54:45.199 --> 00:54:51.159
he should be advising her to follow
court orders. But he was grandstanding because

643
00:54:51.159 --> 00:54:55.440
he also accused the grandparents of manipulating
Aaron by asking him to tell them what

644
00:54:55.559 --> 00:55:00.960
happened on the day of the shooting. Tritiko told papers vote, I can't

645
00:55:00.960 --> 00:55:04.800
allow a ten year old to be
manipulated into saying things that are going to

646
00:55:04.840 --> 00:55:07.880
be used against him later. It
works against this young man's ability to get

647
00:55:07.880 --> 00:55:13.480
a fair trial, and it has
to stop SODA's talking to the press,

648
00:55:13.960 --> 00:55:17.719
which, as far as we found, the grandparents weren't doing. After two

649
00:55:17.800 --> 00:55:22.400
days on the run, Debra finally
handed over Kurt to his paternal grandparents on

650
00:55:22.440 --> 00:55:28.440
September tenth of two thousand and four. According to their grandfather, Kurt was

651
00:55:28.480 --> 00:55:32.239
excited to hang out with Grandma and
Grandpa While all of this was happening,

652
00:55:32.360 --> 00:55:37.960
Aaron was still in a juvenile detention
center. On October first, two thousand

653
00:55:37.960 --> 00:55:43.840
and four, he was charged.
The state now formally accused Aaron of engaging

654
00:55:43.880 --> 00:55:49.599
and delinquent conduct for fatally shooting his
father Rick. There was a jury trial,

655
00:55:49.880 --> 00:55:52.239
but due to Aaron's status as a
minor, no media was allowed,

656
00:55:52.920 --> 00:55:59.199
but we were able to glean the
major arguments. Aaron's legal team argued that

657
00:55:59.239 --> 00:56:02.360
he shot his father in self defense. According to them, Aaron was so

658
00:56:02.440 --> 00:56:07.519
frightened of going to his father's house
and also worried for his brother's safety that

659
00:56:07.639 --> 00:56:14.039
he killed his father to protect them
both. The defense wanted Aaron's current charge

660
00:56:14.079 --> 00:56:17.079
to be dropped and for Aaron to
accept a new charge related to self defense.

661
00:56:17.840 --> 00:56:22.880
Aaron's lawyers also suggested that as I
said, before Deborah gave Aaron two

662
00:56:22.920 --> 00:56:28.960
doses of prozac. If that was
true, then Aaron had overdosed and as

663
00:56:29.000 --> 00:56:34.400
such he couldn't be responsible for his
actions. Despite these arguments, the jury

664
00:56:34.400 --> 00:56:38.079
found Aaron guilty. Due to Texas
laws, the jury not only decided Aaron's

665
00:56:38.119 --> 00:56:43.679
guilt, but also his sentence.
They could have given him anywhere from just

666
00:56:43.760 --> 00:56:47.719
probation to forty years in prison.
So in September of two thousand and five,

667
00:56:47.960 --> 00:56:52.239
a year after the shooting occurred,
the jury sentenced eleven year old Aaron

668
00:56:52.639 --> 00:56:58.679
to ten years of confinement in the
Texas Youth Commission. Aaron would be eligible

669
00:56:58.679 --> 00:57:04.079
for parole in three years as long
as he completed the appropriate resocialization programs.

670
00:57:04.719 --> 00:57:07.519
If Aaron didn't make parole by the
time he became an adult, he would

671
00:57:07.519 --> 00:57:14.519
be transferred to the Texas Department of
Criminal Justice. DA Bill Hawkins, who

672
00:57:14.559 --> 00:57:17.719
prosecuted the case, felt the jury
put Aaron's fate in his own hands.

673
00:57:19.239 --> 00:57:23.320
He said that Aaron held the key
to the gates since pearl was achievable and

674
00:57:23.480 --> 00:57:30.000
only a few years. When asked, jury members rationalized their sentence by saying

675
00:57:30.039 --> 00:57:35.119
they did not want Aaron to return
to his mother's home. They believed the

676
00:57:35.159 --> 00:57:39.920
young man needed more emotional stability than
she could provide, but the general public

677
00:57:40.000 --> 00:57:45.440
wasn't so sure about this solution.
Aaron would still be in a new environment

678
00:57:45.840 --> 00:57:51.360
surrounded by criminals. Was the Texas
Youth Commission truly better than being with Deborah,

679
00:57:52.440 --> 00:57:55.960
but it had been decided. Deba
tried to console Aaron by telling him

680
00:57:57.000 --> 00:58:01.320
the whole situation was like being away
at camp and following camp rules. He'd

681
00:58:01.320 --> 00:58:06.039
get up before dawn, follow a
schedule, eat three meals a day,

682
00:58:06.079 --> 00:58:08.880
and go straight to bed. He
cut his hair in a military style crew

683
00:58:08.920 --> 00:58:14.280
cut, and wear an orange jumpsuit. And if Aaron worked hard and did

684
00:58:14.320 --> 00:58:17.360
well, he could earn the ability
to wear a polo and khaki slacks.

685
00:58:19.199 --> 00:58:22.719
Deborah told reporters that she wouldn't abandon
her son. She said, no matter

686
00:58:22.719 --> 00:58:27.000
where he goes, I'll visit him. I'm not the mother from hell.

687
00:58:27.199 --> 00:58:30.920
I'm just a normal parent who was
in a very difficult marriage. But I

688
00:58:30.000 --> 00:58:37.559
love my children. Around this time, Rick's friends created a foundation against Parental

689
00:58:37.599 --> 00:58:44.000
Alienation Syndrome. They purchased several billboards
in the Houston area. The billboards displayed

690
00:58:44.000 --> 00:58:47.920
a child's drawings of a mother saying
our daddy doesn't love you anymore, and

691
00:58:49.000 --> 00:58:52.360
the caption says, don't turn your
kids against their mommy or their daddy.

692
00:58:53.199 --> 00:59:00.159
They lobbied the American Psychiatric Association to
recognize PAS in the DSM, which would

693
00:59:00.159 --> 00:59:06.639
make it a real medical diagnosis.
Today, the DSM five includes symptoms of

694
00:59:06.719 --> 00:59:13.320
PAS under child emotional abuse, but
it's not its own separate entry. And

695
00:59:13.480 --> 00:59:16.679
that is what I mean by legislation
taking forever. We have to wait for

696
00:59:16.719 --> 00:59:22.719
psychiatry to catch up before the law
can even begin to particularly custody law and

697
00:59:22.840 --> 00:59:29.239
CPS standards. In December of two
thousand and eight, Aaron appealed his case,

698
00:59:29.360 --> 00:59:34.480
and in a rare occurrence, one
Aaron's legal team argued that Aaron should

699
00:59:34.480 --> 00:59:37.800
have been allowed to bring in an
expert to the stand, one that could

700
00:59:37.800 --> 00:59:44.559
talk about self defense and educate the
jury about its nuances. The traditional discussion

701
00:59:44.559 --> 00:59:49.119
of self defense is simple for everyone
to understand. Someone tried to harm me,

702
00:59:49.599 --> 00:59:53.480
so I had to harm them to
save myself. But this expert witness

703
00:59:53.800 --> 00:59:58.159
would have taught the jurors that there
is a version of self defense where a

704
00:59:58.239 --> 01:00:02.880
victim anticipates their abuser's danger, so
even though Rick wasn't in the act of

705
01:00:02.960 --> 01:00:07.559
harming Eraron. At the moment of
his death, Aaron knew that Rick would

706
01:00:07.639 --> 01:00:12.159
hurt him soon, and Aaron's eyes, it was inevitable and the only way

707
01:00:12.159 --> 01:00:15.840
he could stop it was to preemptively
strike. This would be similar to the

708
01:00:15.880 --> 01:00:21.960
battered woman's syndrome argument. For the
record, battered woman's syndrome is listed as

709
01:00:21.960 --> 01:00:27.480
a subcategory under post traumatic stress disorder
in the DSM five. It is also

710
01:00:27.599 --> 01:00:32.239
not recognized as a diagnosis either.
I've covered cases of this, most recently

711
01:00:32.280 --> 01:00:37.880
the Susan Wright case in episode one
seventy. Whether you believe in these arguments

712
01:00:38.000 --> 01:00:42.920
or not is up to you.
But Aaron's lawyers weren't worried about that.

713
01:00:43.400 --> 01:00:46.199
They were only arguing that, hey, the judge should have at least let

714
01:00:46.239 --> 01:00:52.559
us bring a self defense expert to
testify, which frankly I agree with as

715
01:00:52.639 --> 01:00:55.280
long as the expert witness is accredited
with the courts, it is fair.

716
01:00:57.119 --> 01:01:01.079
And the appeals court agreed. They
overturned aaron conviction and started the process for

717
01:01:01.119 --> 01:01:06.480
a new trial. While waiting for
his new trial, fourteen year old Aaron

718
01:01:06.599 --> 01:01:09.280
was released on bond. He stayed
with Deborah's seventy five year old mom,

719
01:01:09.440 --> 01:01:15.639
his grandmother, and San Antonio.
Aaron's little brother, Kurt, had moved

720
01:01:15.639 --> 01:01:20.760
to South Carolina to live with their
paternal grandparents, and Deborah continued to fight

721
01:01:20.800 --> 01:01:25.320
for custody of her two sons,
but was not successful. So Aaron was

722
01:01:25.360 --> 01:01:30.199
given a new trial, but this
time his case never made it to court.

723
01:01:30.960 --> 01:01:35.159
He pled guilty to all charges in
October of twenty eleven. He was

724
01:01:35.199 --> 01:01:38.199
sentenced to probation, which was set
to end when he was eighteen years old

725
01:01:38.559 --> 01:01:44.840
in January of twenty twelve, eleven
years ago, and as far as we

726
01:01:44.880 --> 01:01:51.679
can tell, that's exactly what happened. Today. Deborah still lives in Texas.

727
01:01:51.719 --> 01:01:55.480
She was never charged for anything.
This is a hot button issue and

728
01:01:55.519 --> 01:01:59.480
I'm going to catch a lot of
flak for this, but I do believe

729
01:01:59.679 --> 01:02:04.440
that our laws have not caught up
to the very real and devastating issue of

730
01:02:04.519 --> 01:02:09.440
gun violence in this country. I
do believe that parents and other adults who

731
01:02:09.559 --> 01:02:15.000
fail to responsibly lock up their firearms
should be culpable somewhat, at least in

732
01:02:15.039 --> 01:02:20.800
cases like this, they could be
charged, along with the minor child,

733
01:02:20.920 --> 01:02:24.559
with negligence. At the very least, if not reckless endangerment. This is

734
01:02:24.599 --> 01:02:31.519
just my opinion. Everyone has one. John Hopkins University reported that almost half

735
01:02:31.519 --> 01:02:37.440
of American gun owners don't keep their
guns locked up. These guns are not

736
01:02:37.559 --> 01:02:40.840
in a locker, they aren't in
a gun cabinet. Millions of unsecured guns

737
01:02:42.039 --> 01:02:45.199
are half heartedly hidden, stuffed in
the back of closets, forgotten in the

738
01:02:45.199 --> 01:02:49.400
bottom of night stands, or just
lying in the bottom of a purse.

739
01:02:50.000 --> 01:02:53.639
And that is a big problem.
About four point six million children living a

740
01:02:53.719 --> 01:03:00.280
home with an unlocked, fully loaded
firearm. Seventy five percent of kids who

741
01:03:00.320 --> 01:03:04.559
live at home with guns know exactly
where they are, and studies have indicated

742
01:03:04.639 --> 01:03:08.239
that even if a child has been
explicitly taught not to touch a gun,

743
01:03:08.719 --> 01:03:15.480
most children still will. Originally,
I was going to recite several devastating cases,

744
01:03:15.880 --> 01:03:20.599
but you've heard them all before.
I think the most recent was the

745
01:03:20.639 --> 01:03:23.480
six year old in Virginia who took
his mother's gun and shot his teacher.

746
01:03:24.679 --> 01:03:29.440
We read or hear about these cases
all the time, and yet we are

747
01:03:29.480 --> 01:03:34.599
still waiting for some common sense gun
laws. Tragically, there are thousands of

748
01:03:34.639 --> 01:03:40.039
cases like these, and today we
only covered one of them. Doctor Rick

749
01:03:40.159 --> 01:03:45.039
Lostrow may not have been a perfect
husband or a perfect man, and he

750
01:03:45.119 --> 01:03:50.559
had a stressful career as an emergency
room doctor on top of his other problems,

751
01:03:51.159 --> 01:03:54.360
but he still loved his sons.
There is no hard proof that Rick

752
01:03:54.480 --> 01:04:00.440
ever really abused his sons, much
less sexually abused them. There is much

753
01:04:00.480 --> 01:04:05.559
more evidence to suggest that his ex
wife did everything in her power to turn

754
01:04:05.639 --> 01:04:11.639
his own sons against him. She
poisoned Aaron's mind. She may not have

755
01:04:11.719 --> 01:04:15.880
intended for this tragedy to happen,
but she did set the dominoes up.

756
01:04:16.320 --> 01:04:20.039
Rick was a forty one year old
man doing the best he could. That

757
01:04:20.199 --> 01:04:25.199
is so young. The older I
get, the younger. Forty one sounds.

758
01:04:26.599 --> 01:04:30.719
Aaron would now be about thirty years
old, a man now himself.

759
01:04:30.800 --> 01:04:34.760
I hope that he received the therapy
he needed to come to grips with what

760
01:04:34.840 --> 01:04:41.239
he did, and somehow he'll I
hope he remains in therapy for a long

761
01:04:41.280 --> 01:04:50.280
time. I could not imagine having
to live with this Southern fried true crimus.

762
01:04:50.320 --> 01:04:55.840
Hosted and produced by me Erica Kelly, Today's episode was researched and written

763
01:04:55.840 --> 01:05:00.440
by Andrea Marshbank and me and of
course all editorial opinions are my own.

764
01:05:00.920 --> 01:05:04.400
Southern Fraud's original music is by Rob
Harrison of Gamma Radio and the original graphic

765
01:05:04.480 --> 01:05:09.760
art is by Kelly Horner. Today's
episode was edited and mixed by Brandon scheck

766
01:05:09.800 --> 01:05:14.480
Snyder of Southern Gothic and Erica Kelly. If you have any case suggestions,

767
01:05:14.559 --> 01:05:18.639
please go to my website and click
on the listener suggestion tab or email SFTC

768
01:05:18.920 --> 01:05:24.199
Research at gmail dot com. You'll
get lost in a sea of emails if

769
01:05:24.199 --> 01:05:27.360
you send it to my main address, so this is the best way for

770
01:05:27.360 --> 01:05:30.960
me to get to those little known
cases. Y'all always send me. Please

771
01:05:30.000 --> 01:05:35.079
remember that I do not accept suggestions
on social media private messages. With three

772
01:05:35.119 --> 01:05:40.360
platforms to manage, that is very
overwhelming for me. I hope you understand,

773
01:05:40.639 --> 01:05:44.800
but please come join our Facebook group, Southern Fried True Crime Fans Discretion

774
01:05:44.840 --> 01:05:47.599
Group, where we swap recipes,
worship Dolly Parton, and share memes.

775
01:05:47.960 --> 01:05:53.400
I much prefer spending my social media
time and our lovely group. We do,

776
01:05:53.480 --> 01:05:57.199
of course discussed true crime, not
just Southern Fraud, but all kinds,

777
01:05:57.480 --> 01:06:00.360
but it is still very much a
Southern lifestyle group. Our group is

778
01:06:00.400 --> 01:06:02.920
a safe and fun corner of Facebook, and by god, we mean it

779
01:06:02.960 --> 01:06:06.159
when we say no shut asses allowed. It's not just a motto, it's

780
01:06:06.199 --> 01:06:10.559
how we run the group. If
you enjoyed today's show, don't forget to

781
01:06:10.599 --> 01:06:15.159
subscribe and please tell a friend or
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782
01:06:15.239 --> 01:06:19.280
on all large platforms like a Heartstitcher, Spotify, Spreaker, and now Amazon

783
01:06:19.360 --> 01:06:25.519
and Audible. Until next time,
thanks so much for listening. Y'all.

784
01:06:25.519 --> 01:06:26.000
Take care,